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iPhone App Store developers find ways to profit from pirates - Page 2

post #41 of 139
I can tether, with no jailbreak.

What about developers, who have their work stolen and have to make up for it by plying pirates with more ads, ads which legitimate owners also have to put up with.

Jailbreaking enables pirates!

Quote:
Originally Posted by daratbastid View Post

what about tethering?
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post #42 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Use image as wallpaper? WTF are you taking about?
No, Im not willing to give up AppleCare support, but I willing take the nearly non-existant risk that Ill have to give my phone to Apple for repair without being able to restore the OS.

Unexpected, eh? It's always simple with Apple products. Everything is always just simple as that.
You're taking that risk for nothing. You're stealing Apple's intellectual property for nothing. For absolutely nothing.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #43 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by PersonMan View Post

Please don't paint all jailbreakers as pirates. I use a jailbroken device but I don't pirate any apps. I buy my apps from the Apple App Store and I use free and paid apps from Cydia.

I'm in the same boat. I jailbroke so I could have apps that let me answer an SMS without leaving the app I'm currently in. I am able to customize the look and feel of my springboard, and I can change the damn SMS tones now. I have adblock as well, which is huge on the slow and laggy cell phone data network. I also have my phone auto-silent at night. There's a lot of interface improvements that you can only get with a jailbreak. I have bought a ton of iTunes apps (including tomtom), and I've bought a bunch of apps from cydia. I have zero pirated apps.

Jailbreak is about control for me, not stealing apps. Hopefully OS4.0 will fix all the things that I fixed via a jailbreak, but I doubt it.


Sheldon
post #44 of 139
I thought he had to be joking as well. I couldn't stand using my phone without some of the jailbroken options for SMS. If I really had to close the app being used and open the messaging app every time I had an SMS come in, I would have thrown the phone out the window. I also love being able to run Pandora in the background using Music Controls. I was using Cycorder but now that Apple has allowed App Store equivalents, I have purchased two to replace it. (Qik Video and iVideocamera)

The other reality is that I run my iPhone on Tmobile. I'll wait on the next announcement to decide whether to bring the family over to AT&T and go with them. Verizon has made it a lot easier to ponder with their strange mandatory data plans for feature phones and their elimination of Connect and Select plans. In the meantime though Jailbreaking allows me to have 1000 minutes and unlimited text and data for $65.

I don't steal any apps and the claims by some here that someone would steal a $.99 app and then spend $10 in game makes no sense. It is divorced from reality and shows that jailbreaking doesn't equal pirating.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #45 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Unexpected, eh? It's always simple with Apple products. Everything is always just simple as that.
You're taking that risk for nothing. You're stealing Apple's intellectual property for nothing. For absolutely nothing.

Now you arent even responding to the post you are quoting. I have no idea what you are on about, especially with stealing Apples IP and what the term nothing means when several posters have pointed out uses, almost all legal, for jailbreaking an device.
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post #46 of 139
Thieves from Ubuntu land! You do not know the functionality of Apple products. You can not use Apple products.

Once more for Ubuntu users:
Mobile Safari - web page of Internet radio - playback - QT controls - quit Safari - multitasking

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #47 of 139
I've seen some pretty cool things on a jailbroken iphone, there definitely is an appeal. I still won't jailbreak mine, even if it's just a soft break which I can revert without an affect to my Apple Care... my boss has tried to convince to jailbreak it but I just won't, I like official stuff only.
post #48 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Now you aren’t even responding to the post you are quoting. I have no idea what you are on about, especially with stealing Apple’s IP and what the term ‘nothing’ means when several posters have pointed out uses, almost all legal, for jailbreaking an device.

You want response to WTF?
Here's the response: jailbreaking is illegal and means stealing Apple's IP. It's now the extreme utmost stupidity, too.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #49 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Thieves from Ubuntu land! You do not know the functionality of Apple products. You can not use Apple products.

Once more for Ubuntu users:
Mobile Safari - web page of Internet radio - playback - QT controls - quit Safari - multitasking



lmfao your a nut

looks like someone started the celebration of the itablet a bit early
post #50 of 139
The $450 million claim for loss to piracy was debunked almost as soon as it was made.I'm sure there's piracy but the numbers quoted by those "analysts" had no more substance than smoke.

Please don't keep repeating these worn-out piracy claims unless the claimants provide more evidence for their numbers
post #51 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

You want response to WTF?
Here's the response: jailbreaking is illegal and means stealing Apple's IP. It's now the extreme utmost stupidity, too.

What IP was stolen? What is illegal about devs creating software for a jailbroken iPhone? (obviously these questions are rhetorical and your only response will be that it leads to stealing App Store apps, but by that logic creating the App Store app leads to it being stolen)
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post #52 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Frankly, it's amazing like everything, which Apple does. Apple's eliminated absolutely all reasons to jailbreak. Under present conditions jailbreaking is clear sign of being rationally inept. And thieves jailbreak nevertheless! Unbelievable.

When you get expose like window viewing, multi page docks, the option to change the grids for icons, a drop down settings toggle, themeing, widgets, and cover flow contacts, then you will have a valid argument. I've been Jailbreaking since Firmware 1.2 and have never once pirated an app.
post #53 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What IP was stolen?

Apple's IP was stolen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What is illegal about devs creating software for a jailbroken iPhone? (obviously these questions are rhetorical and your only response will be that it leads to stealing App Store apps, but by that logic creating the App Store app leads to it being stolen)

They don't pass Apple's approval. So, they willingly harm Apple products.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #54 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Oh, thieves can't live a single day without their bellyaching.

Mod +1 Funny
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post #55 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337 View Post

When you get expose like window viewing, multi page docks, the option to change the grids for icons, a drop down settings toggle, themeing, widgets, and cover flow contacts, then you will have a valid argument. I've been Jailbreaking since Firmware 1.2 and have never once pirated an app.

You're a thief. Period.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #56 of 139
Thieves are just laughing bags.
App Store is stuffed full with apps presenting contacts in cover flows and in 3D. And ubuntists are still mumbling about their Cydia crap.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #57 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Apple's IP was stolen.

They don't pass Apple's approval. So, they willingly harm Apple products.

At the risk of getting a warning from the Mods for a personal attack Youre a fraking idiot.
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post #58 of 139
Reported.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #59 of 139
I've jailbroken my own phone solely for the SBSettings. I can swipe across the menu bar and have access to turn on and off wireless, 3g. It's stupid to have to go into three levels of menu to turn off wireless and the applications that I use (Runkeeper, in particular) suggest doing so before using location logging. If Apple offered this kind of functionality then I there would be no reason to jailbreak for my own circumstances.

However, I don't see the same people frothing about hackintoshes complaining about jailbreaking. Both violate the EULA, do they not?
post #60 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I'm assuming the most jail broken and pirated apps occur in China, where street vendors compete with each other who has the most to offer.

A 20lb bag of rice that can make 1000 meals sells for $10 in the U.S. (less in China), works out to be about 1¢ a meal.

99¢ = 99 meals in China. Meat and veggies are a compliment to rice, perhaps only eaten once per day.

So to a average American, 99¢ might not mean too much.

They do tend to save up to get a jail broken iPhone, so they can get online and talk free over wifi.

If you can't afford payed application, simply do not buy iPhone
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post #61 of 139
How often do I launch Settings? Once or twice a month. It's an operation of no longer, than 20 sec. Producing yellow snow would take much longer. Why are people so inclined to steal.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #62 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

You're a thief. Period.

What did I steal? Violating a EULA isn't theft. Also, just out of curiosity, why do you think Apple should be the sole provider of iPhone Apps, and force people to only buy from their App Store. Do you think it's wrong for there to be other stores to compete with the App Store? I love using the Cydia and Rock stores, I regularly purchase content off them, just as I would from Apple. If you ask me, it seems wrong for Apple to declare it's illegal and wrong for someone to purchase a product not from them.
post #63 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

How often do I launch Settings? Once or twice a month. It's an operation of no longer, than 20 sec. Producing yellow snow would take much longer. Why are people so inclined to steal.

Well in many of our cases, when our battery dwindles down to 20%, we like to be able to quickly lower the backlight, disable 3g and location services, and disable any extra apps using memory. Swiping and toggling 4 switches is much better than having to navigate the settings app, especially for some of us who are away most of the day and don't have many opportunities to charge our phones.
post #64 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337 View Post

What did I steal? Violating a EULA isn't theft.

Who gave you right to judge? You can't understand that not all 100K of apps in App Store are made by Apple, you can't handle the simplest phone ever, and you're trying to classify crimes. You stole the intellectual property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337 View Post

Also, just out of curiosity, why do you think Apple should be the sole provider of iPhone Apps, and force people to only buy from their App Store. Do you think it's wrong for there to be other stores to compete with the App Store? I love using the Cydia and Rock stores, I regularly purchase content off them, just as I would from Apple. If you ask me, it seems wrong for Apple to declare it's illegal and wrong for someone to purchase a product not from them.

You rock, you rock! 100K of Apple apps. Apple got any rights just because they created iPhone. Not you, thief.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #65 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337 View Post

If you ask me, it seems wrong for Apple to declare it's illegal and wrong for someone to purchase a product not from them.

I dont think that is wrong but it can be annoying. Ultimately I like that they arent making their mobile OS a user nightmare by letting any and all apps roam freely. With jailbreaking, which they dont seem to try hard to prevent, there is an extra hurdle that more technically inclined users go for.

I really dont want my Mom DLing an OpenSSL app from the App Store because she got it in a text message she thought was for me, then running it not knowing what it is for. These controls are good for the average consumer which is one of the main reasons why the iPhone succeeds where others havent, but its nice there are alternatives for informed users.
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post #66 of 139
Ubuntists! iPhone may last more than day on 3G under 20% of charge.
Lower backlight on Ubuntu, don't touch Apple products.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #67 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Who gave you right to judge? You can't understand that not all 100K of apps in App Store are made by Apple, you can't handle the simplest phone ever, and you're trying to classify crimes. You stole the intellectual property.

Youre the French version of Teckstud.
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post #68 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by gin_tonic View Post

If you can't afford payed application, simply do not buy iPhone


Meanwhile, in the numerous back streets of China...


"One dollar, u pay me now.

ten apps, one dollar

u buy store, 10 dollar, you pay me one dollar.

you pay me now, 10 apps, no?

10 apps, 10 apps, two dollar, you pay me now

no, no 10 apps 10 apps one dollar, two dollar

one two dollar, 10, 10 apps one chicken, three dollar

you pay me now three dollar"
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post #69 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by PersonMan View Post

Please don't paint all jailbreakers as pirates. I use a jailbroken device but I don't pirate any apps. I buy my apps from the Apple App Store and I use free and paid apps from Cydia.

+1...except I haven't bought anything from Cydia/Rock. Nothing has peaked my interest.
post #70 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Who gave you right to judge?

That's quite an interesting thing to say, how about you? It looks to me that you're making judgments too, repeating them ad nauseum, yet you're lashing out at someone else that made their own, whether they are right or not. It's not a good way to persuade.
post #71 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

How often do I launch Settings? Once or twice a month.

This is a sign of what type of user -cough dummy cough- we're dealing with...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, for something serious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

The very fact that someone would bother to pirate a 99 cent or $1.99 app just illustrates what kind of mentality permeates consumer and geek culture.

Mostly, but not quite.

Maybe somenone bother to pirate a .99 app just because the app store in your country DOESN'T HAVE that app to sell... it's a matter to pirate it or not have it. I'm not saying it's right. I don't think we must burn them all, either.


Some thoughts:

1- Jailbreak IS NOT EQUAL Piracy. Period.
You do have to jailbreak an iPhone in order to pirate apps (it's a premise), but jailbreak is far from the piracy method itself!
Jailbreak is the way to have R/W access to iPhone file system.
Jailbreak installs a "repository ïndex" app on the iPhone (usually Cydia or Icy).

2- The patch required to run pirated apps is one among thousands of packages available in Cydia repository.
(Cydia even warns that you're installing a repository used to spread pireted apps, urging you to don't, but not preventing you from doing so - someone would call this free will).
Equals Jailbreak with piracy is like saying that every iphone user bought it just to use fart applications. Which we all know that's not, .... right?

3- Many of the countries that have official iPhone carriers, have also other carries who doesn't.
Many countries doesn't have laws that forces carriers to legally unlock a phone.
Now, unlock hacks also uses a jailbroked iPhone FW in order to do the magic of allow the use of HW in other carrier. THERE IS NO WAY IN THE WORLD THAT THIS HACK, ITSELF, WOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW. IT IS AGAINST APPLE EULA, MAYBE, but frankly, if your phone is not covered by the warranty anymore, for instance, you have the absolute right to install whatever you care - as long as it's free - in a piece of hardware that is yours.

3- In the same way, many of the countries with official iPhone sales have lousy iTunes App Stores, with a few dozen apps, just to say that's there. (Not to justify piracy, but to explain it) Most of the people that pirate apps into iPhone, overseas, are doing so just because the flaws of the App Store. We'll not be naive to say that if they have access to a full app store they would stop pirating, but some of them would.


That said, please allow me to use my country - Brazil - as an example.

There's four major carriers (the WHOLE four major carriers) selling iPhones officially here.
I have one, with a contract from TIM (Italy) carrier. But I also have a GSM SIM from other carrier, who manages to offer long distance calls at a very lower price, so I'd like to be able to make calls from two different carriers. That's why I jailbroke my phone. I have no pirated apps, but I have MessageLog and Snapture, two fine paid apps from Cydia (formerly from Cydia, in the case of Snapture). I also have things like SBSettings ("no way to find something barely similar on App Store", this one's for dummies...). Bottom line: for me, an iPhone without Jailbreak and some of the Apps / Utilities from Cydia, is a totally no go.

My wife have one, too. She have 23 apps installed on it. 15 of those, pirated. None of that 15 are found at the Brazil's app store. The other 8 have been bought from iTunes.

Is she right to do that way? Barely.
What are her options? None.


Sorry the poor english, I just can't stand dummies playing jailbreak/piracy nonsense.
post #72 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterz1337 View Post

What did I steal? Violating a EULA isn't theft. Also, just out of curiosity, why do you think Apple should be the sole provider of iPhone Apps, and force people to only buy from their App Store. Do you think it's wrong for there to be other stores to compete with the App Store? I love using the Cydia and Rock stores, I regularly purchase content off them, just as I would from Apple. If you ask me, it seems wrong for Apple to declare it's illegal and wrong for someone to purchase a product not from them.

That's one of the areas in which the judge in the Psystar case doesn't agree with you.
post #73 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mSiqueira View Post

This is a sign of what type of user -cough dummy cough- we're dealing with...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, for something serious.


Mostly, but not quite.

Maybe somenone bother to pirate a .99 app just because the app store in your country DOESN'T HAVE that app to sell... it's a matter to pirate it or not have it. I'm not saying it's right. I don't think we must burn them all, either.


Some thoughts:

1- Jailbreak IS NOT EQUAL Piracy. Period.
You do have to jailbreak an iPhone in order to pirate apps (it's a premise), but jailbreak is far from the piracy method itself!
Jailbreak is the way to have R/W access to iPhone file system.
Jailbreak installs a "repository ïndex" app on the iPhone (usually Cydia or Icy).

2- The patch required to run pirated apps is one among thousands of packages available in Cydia repository.
(Cydia even warns that you're installing a repository used to spread pireted apps, urging you to don't, but not preventing you from doing so - someone would call this free will).
Equals Jailbreak with piracy is like saying that every iphone user bought it just to use fart applications. Which we all know that's not, .... right?

3- Many of the countries that have official iPhone carriers, have also other carries who doesn't.
Many countries doesn't have laws that forces carriers to legally unlock a phone.
Now, unlock hacks also uses a jailbroked iPhone FW in order to do the magic of allow the use of HW in other carrier. THERE IS NO WAY IN THE WORLD THAT THIS HACK, ITSELF, WOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW. IT IS AGAINST APPLE EULA, MAYBE, but frankly, if your phone is not covered by the warranty anymore, for instance, you have the absolute right to install whatever you care - as long as it's free - in a piece of hardware that is yours.

3- In the same way, many of the countries with official iPhone sales have lousy iTunes App Stores, with a few dozen apps, just to say that's there. (Not to justify piracy, but to explain it) Most of the people that pirate apps into iPhone, overseas, are doing so just because the flaws of the App Store. We'll not be naive to say that if they have access to a full app store they would stop pirating, but some of them would.


That said, please allow me to use my country - Brazil - as an example.

There's four major carriers (the WHOLE four major carriers) selling iPhones officially here.
I have one, with a contract from TIM (Italy) carrier. But I also have a GSM SIM from other carrier, who manages to offer long distance calls at a very lower price, so I'd like to be able to make calls from two different carriers. That's why I jailbroke my phone. I have no pirated apps, but I have MessageLog and Snapture, two fine paid apps from Cydia (formerly from Cydia, in the case of Snapture). I also have things like SBSettings ("no way to find something barely similar on App Store", this one's for dummies...). Bottom line: for me, an iPhone without Jailbreak and some of the Apps / Utilities from Cydia, is a totally no go.

My wife have one, too. She have 23 apps installed on it. 15 of those, pirated. None of that 15 are found at the Brazil's app store. The other 8 have been bought from iTunes.

Is she right to do that way? Barely.
What are her options? None.


Sorry the poor english, I just can't stand dummies playing jailbreak/piracy nonsense.

Cydia, like the x86 project, is being disingenuous. They know very well that the entire purpose of their existence is for people to download pirated apps. They serve no other purpose.

They say what they do in an attempt to stay out of Apple's claws. They attempt to present the information as "educational", and not for what it really is.

The fact that some apps are not found in Brazil's store isn't a good reason to steal them. If there are licensing issues, or some other problem that prevents them from being sold there, you can be sure that it's rarely the developer who prefers it that way, or, for that matter, Apple.

It's still theft.
post #74 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Cydia, like the x86 project, is being disingenuous. They know very well that the entire purpose of their existence is for people to download pirated apps.

And yet jailbreaking the iPhone OS and creating an app store predates the App Store? \

Quote:
They serve no other purpose.

Except for all the other purposes already expressed in this thread plus much more.
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post #75 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's still theft.

Saying jailbreaking your phone to install apps otherwise not offered through the SDK is like saying that driving 1mph over the speed limit is breaking the law, if even.
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post #76 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And yet jailbreaking the iPhone OS and creating an app store predates the App Store? \


Except for all the other purposes already expressed in this thread plus much more.

Before, they were trying to get apps.

As that's not been needed for quite a while, they now just serve the purpose of getting pirated ones. Yeah, there are some other less interesting uses for it, but pirating is the main one by a large deal, and you know it.
post #77 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think some of this piracy can be combated by offering trial period apps over Lite versions with limited functionality. I have pirated apps, for instance the $99 TomTom app because I wasn’t willing to fork over that much to test an app’s usability. I didn’t like it so I deleted it. I can many people doing this for much cheaper apps but then not deleting them.

By making it convenient to try out the app and then continue the use after the trial period is over I suspect devs will profit more. I’d think leaving the duration of the trial period up to the developer. It’s not unprecedented with FairPlay as Apple’s movie rentals use exploding DRM that seems to work out quite well.

I would like to see you try this in, lets say an Apple store. 'Excuse me, I'm just shoplifting this iMac to try it out and to see if I like it. Don't worry if I don't like it I will bring it back'

I am afraid that your arguments are now null and void as you have publicly admitted to being a pirate.
post #78 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Saying jailbreaking your phone to install apps otherwise not offered through the SDK is like saying that driving 1mph over the speed limit is breaking the law, if even.

Not in the slightest. Though driving 1 mph over the limit comes within the fudge factor of the methods used in measuring that speed.

When you're using even just one pirated app, you're over the limit. There is no fudge factor. You're either doing it, or you're not.

I'm not talking about apps not offered through the app store. I haven't fully read the contract we sign with apple when we buy the phone, so I don't know what it says about that.

I'm not arguing that you can't jailbreak your phone. we've had our discussions about that. Apple rightly reserves the right to not provide services for jailbroken phones, including warranty service, or after warranty service. You take the risk.

But far more apps downloaded from Cydia are pirated than otherwise not offered at all. And I assume you aren't talking about apps in the store that aren't available in another jurisdiction? because that's still pirating.
post #79 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Before, they were trying to get apps.

As that's not been needed for quite a while, they now just serve the purpose of getting pirated ones. Yeah, there are some other less interesting uses for it, but pirating is the main one by a large deal, and you know it.

It's easier to install a pirated app on Mac OS X than it is on the iPhone so saying that a jailbroken is only used for piracy or elude to both App Stores being equal is so far from the truth that is laughable and clear that you've never jailbroken your phoe and checke out the diversity of the Cydia or Rock stores.

Logically, if it's just for stealing apps then why even have an app store when in of itself is not required for app piracy, only access to the root which could be built into the jailbreak. The fact is there is a huge amount of functionality that can be had, most of which I hope Apple adds to iPhone OS v4.0 so I don't have to bother with jailbreaking.

The concept "if Apple doesn't include the functionality it must not be important to me" is one reason people tend to have Apple enthusiests.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #80 of 139
The sad fact is the rest of the worlds value system is not like what it is in Western societies and it's impossible to get them to change.

The root cause of that is overpopulation, which places great stress on survival with little empathy for the fellow man and the rule of law.
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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