ITC formally investigates Apple over Nokia patent complaints - Page 2

Originally Posted by esummers

They are definitely not selling below cost. Apple just reported 40% margins. You seem to be looking at this backwards. BTW, free is not by definition below cost. There are other ways to make money on a product. In Googles case, they are funded by advertising. They are not using anticompetitive practices to run someone out of business just to raise prices later.

Originally Posted by jfanning

They are not selling it for less than cost, as you need to buy the damn phone in the first place. No different than buying a stand along GPS unit.

Originally Posted by Quadra 610

What does being neutral have anything to do with it?

It's a site that reports on Apple's latest patent applications and granted patents.

Originally Posted by jfanning

Going by most of your posts, nothing at all.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

No big deal here -- it means nothing at all. The ITC is compelled to investigate formally filed complaints. That is what they are paid to do. They have no choice.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Well, it kind of depends how this things has played out behind closed doors. None of us really know. But say it played out like this:
1) Apple tried to license the usual Nokia tech at whatever price everybody else pays.
2) Nokia said they want to cross-license.
3) Apple (who has been burned before with cross-licensing, which licensed wholesale theft), said no, just give us your usual rates.
4) Nokia names a egregious price.
5) Apple said fine, we'll do our own clean-room version and bypass your patents.
6) Now Apple thinks they have a clean-room version, Nokia believes it still infringes.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Well, it kind of depends how this things has played out behind closed doors. None of us really know. But say it played out like this:

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Do you know that the cost of that is factored into the cost of the phone, or are you just speculating? You may well be right, but Nokia will have to prove it.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Yeah, when you can't address the message, attack the messenger. Very mature.

He asked you a question: either answer it (if you have an answer), or keep quiet. Don't get personal.

Originally Posted by jfanning

If I buy a tom tom now, it comes with free maps and navigation, if I get a garmin, it comes with free maps anf navigation, infact all the stand alone gps systems do, so if everyone does it, how come it is dumping when Nokia does it?

Originally Posted by dyler

the USA should not allow Finnish companies to sue our companies

Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns

Nokia and Apple will cross-license technology and they will have no further comment.

Originally Posted by jfanning

Who made you the boss? He is as one sided as all the Apple fan web sites, nothing he says is neutral, just like nothing on that Apple patent site is neutral, so how the fact of providing that site as a reference be aiding anything other than pushing a pro Apple stance

Originally Posted by jfanning

Apple will have to hurry up and learn how to play with others, they have lost big opportunities by not cross licensing some of their technologies, and will continue to do so.

Originally Posted by jfanning

Yeah, that sounds like a neutral site...

Originally Posted by jfanning

Apple will have to hurry up and learn how to play with others, they have lost big opportunities by not cross licensing some of their technologies, and will continue to do so.

Originally Posted by Quadra 610

One of the keys to their wild success is *not* cross-licensing tech.

Originally Posted by -AG-

Did you bother to actually look at that site before you made that comment?

Its a site dedicated to and discussing of apples patents.

why is that a bad thing?

Originally Posted by jfanning

discussing Nokia's patent claims against Apple?

Originally Posted by Capnbob

Which technologies since early MacOS should they have cross licensed with others? Anything Apple wants out there, they make open source or contribute to other open source projects, anything they don't they don't and keep for themselves. Nokia is way behind the technology curve here with few hopes of catching up since their traditional skillsets are not the ones that are winning the races right now - traditional basic network tech...)

Originally Posted by Capnbob

Nokia by all accounts are tying to bend Apple over to get its technology which Nokia seems incapable of making for itself using its old basic tech patents that Nokia has licensed to everyone else without cross-licensing requirements.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Well, it kind of depends how this things has played out behind closed doors. None of us really know. But say it played out like this:
1) Apple tried to license the usual Nokia tech at whatever price everybody else pays.
2) Nokia said they want to cross-license.
3) Apple (who has been burned before with cross-licensing, which licensed wholesale theft), said no, just give us your usual rates.
4) Nokia names a egregious price.
5) Apple said fine, we'll do our own clean-room version and bypass your patents.
6) Now Apple thinks they have a clean-room version, Nokia believes it still infringes.

If that's how it played out, then there is a certain kind of patent-trollishness going on.

The problem is, even after the lawsuit begins, it's not like any of us will have been edified. All we'll be able to do is hear two sides, and make arbitrary decisions about where the truth is (like: the truth is probably in the middle... which is not the case if one side flat-out lies and the other tells the truth... SCO, for an example of that).

One thing, though. Apple does not have a reputation for just outright stealing other people's tech and trying to get away with it. Mainly because they know how badly that would fail. I suspect my scenario above is pretty close to how it played out up to this point. How it plays out from here is anybody's guess. The lawyers will make money, and there will be some people who feel robbed. That's all we know for sure.

Originally Posted by jfanning

I'll give you one example, the Apple TV. If Apple had licenced it to TV manufactures, then the Apple TV would have been the standard for that type of thing, rather than being a joke of a product that has gone no where.

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

I have absolutely no idea what you mean. Apple has nothing to do with this.

Also, you may be confusing 'dumping' with 'predatory pricing.'

Originally Posted by jfanning

Fairplay for video is one, a major one.

That is a fanboy response, Nokia cross licences a lot of its patents with other companies, otherwise they wouldn't be able to make phones, or cellsites either, and they are far from basic.

Originally Posted by jfanning

Fairplay for video is one, a major one.



That is a fanboy response, Nokia cross licences a lot of its patents with other companies, otherwise they wouldn't be able to make phones, or cellsites either, and they are far from basic.

Originally Posted by esummers

Apple Fanboys are typically a rational group. The RDF field is only active during keynotes. If you can actually find evidence to the contrary that Nokia is not trying to use their patent portfolio aggressively to take advantage of Apple instead of treating them fairly I would love to hear it. So far the evidence is overwhelmingly pointing toward Nokia entering Patent Troll territory.

Originally Posted by Capnbob

Bring out the F-word (fanboy). Quibble about "basic" but Nokia's patents are for the fundamental network technology which is now set and moving on to 4G. The majority of the innovation and differentiation is in the software and UI layers and that is where Nokia is woefully behind.

Originally Posted by Capnbob

Anyway, Nokia charges fees per device with a lot of licensees, instead of cross licenses where the other party doesn't have anything to offer or doesn't want to give it to Nokia. Apple have stated that Nokia was trying to overcharge Apple. Their side of the story for sure, but likely true given Nokia's desperation to catch up.

Originally Posted by Capnbob

Continue living in your Finnish dreamworld if you like but they are in a deep hole and your rambling about your perceived Apple failings won't change that.

Originally Posted by esummers

It also doesn't make any sense that open standards can contain patented technology (like GSM). If it is patented, it should be patented by the standards body so it is equally owned by all members.

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Well, it kind of depends how this things has played out behind closed doors. None of us really know. But say it played out like this:
1) Apple tried to license the usual Nokia tech at whatever price everybody else pays.
2) Nokia said they want to cross-license.
3) Apple (who has been burned before with cross-licensing, which licensed wholesale theft), said no, just give us your usual rates.
4) Nokia names a egregious price.
5) Apple said fine, we'll do our own clean-room version and bypass your patents.
6) Now Apple thinks they have a clean-room version, Nokia believes it still infringes.

Originally Posted by jfanning

If I buy a tom tom now, it comes with free maps and navigation, if I get a garmin, it comes with free maps anf navigation, infact all the stand alone gps systems do, so if everyone does it, how come it is dumping when Nokia does it?

Originally Posted by hill60

A worldwide, lifetime license?

That until recently came with a substantial annual cost, now it's free.

Nokia instigated this action in the US, their panic stricken reaction to the iPhone has led them to desperate moves.

Such as dumping free GPS software in much the same way as Microsoft almost destroyed the web browser market by giving away Internet explorer, now phone manufacturers will have to give away GPS software for free in order to compete.

No more subscriptions to pay for development.

All the navigation App store Apps have become obsolete.

Dumping, dumping, dumping.

All it will take is one complaint and Nokia will be screwed in the US.

I wonder what Nokia owned Navteq charge Garmin for the use of their maps?

Originally Posted by jahonen

Hey, it gets better than that! Google is also screwed as well since navigation is included on the Google phone?

And Nokia is double screwed with Nokia's Comes With Music as it is also dumping and destroying Apple's business case with iTunes since user's get to dowload all the music they want for a year.

And using patented technology without paying for it (or user of said patents trying to tell the owner what price they'd like to pay and the owner having no say in the matter) is triple screwing Nokia.

And Apple is the wise and holy one by include iLife with the OS thereby removing the need for corresponding applications from independent SW vendors.

Apple is the wise and holy one by including licenses for basically unlimited users with their server licenses for stuff that microsoft licences user specific CALs for.


Regs, Jarkko

Originally Posted by hill60

Nokia charge more for the "Comes with Music" versions of their phone's.

Now tell me specifically which Nokia patents Apple are using and the means by which they are doing it.

Don't the Qualcomm licenses Apple has, you know the one's Nokia settled by paying $2.3 Billion to Qualcomm cover what the iPhone does?

The licenses paid to other patent holders in this area?

The licenses paid for in the outsourced chips used in the iPhone.

Tell me under what jurisdiction, anywhere on earth, has it been shown that a phone cannot work without Nokia's technologies?

Motorola manufactured the first GSM phone, which Nokia technology was used in it seeing as it was prior art.

Originally Posted by jahonen

I'm not a patent lawyer so I can't really be the judge, but take a look at the PDF that I gave in my previous post. For example touchscreen keyboard zooming patented by Nokia looks awfully similar to what Apple implemented in the iPhone.

The licenses licensed by chipset vendors are typically not transferrable to the byer of the chipsets (sounds weird and I agree it is, but this is what "people in the know" tell me is how it works in ITU and 3GPP). So Apple has to pay (and does to Ericsson and Motorola for example) so why not Nokia?

I won't (propably can't) point out a juristiction where they say that a GSM/3G phone cannot work without Nokia patented tech. But that's not the point. The point is "did Apple use Nokia patented tech or not?".

As to making the first GSM phone. Well the phone contains tons of tech (and you know that) which has been cross licensed from day one by the incumbent players (Motorola, Qualcomm, Nokia, Ericsson etc.). GSM phone itself is not patented.

And are you sure that Motorola manufactured the first GSM phone? http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/11/09/ft_nokia_1011/

They manufactured the first GSM phone, but it _may_ just have been Nokia who made the first mass produced GSM phone.

Regs, Jarkko

Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns

Jarko,

Moro, moro. Are you really wasting your time trying to debate with the dweller in apartment 1A of Steve Job's pants?

Don't waste your time.

Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns

Jarko,

Moro, moro. Are you really wasting your time trying to debate with the dweller in apartment 1A of Steve Job's pants?

Don't waste your time.

Originally Posted by jahonen

Moimoi.

Naah. Hill60 is OK sofar. He's just playing at being the "blind Apple fanboy". There are points in his posts.

But yeah, sometimes I don't bother when the speedblindness hits in with many of the posters here (and other fansites of various things technical). Just not quite there yet on this thread.

Competition is good and black and white opinions (the bane of fansites) are as bad as monopolies (real or de-facto). The ITC and patent cases are part of competition and protecting Apple's or Nokia's IP is what the economy is based on (i.e. making innovations and benefiting from them so that there's an incentive to innovate more)

Regs, Jarkko

P.S. Just to clarify to before someone starts discrediting anything I say solely because of my nationality (I did see what happened to you just because you're stationed here). I am a Finn through and through. Owner and user of iPods and Macs. Used to be a fan of Nokia (because they used to made seriously better stuff than anyone else in the business and it was all the better since it is the home team). They've since lost most of the momentum they had going for them (became complacent) and I'm no longer a fan of any manufacturer in particular.

What I'm really interested in is seeing where the _real_ facts are and what makes a manufacturer succeed and fail. It's interesting to see for example will Nokia be able to reinvent itself (history would prove yes, but you never know). Samsung and HTC seem to be quick to copy and stay in the game, but neither of them have done a single gamechanger. Can they become gamechangers? Can Apple stay and keep being the gamechanger or was it a one-off in the phone space?

But that has nothing to do with the ITC case.

Originally Posted by hill60

I wonder what Nokia owned Navteq charge Garmin for the use of their maps?

Originally Posted by jfanning

Now, I understand from this statement that you don't understand how companies work, but I will try and explain this for you. Even though Navteq may be owned by Nokia, Nokia will still pay Navteq for the use of the Maps, just like Garmin etc.

Originally Posted by hill60

Until recently Nokia gave away trial versions of their maps if you wanted to continue the trial you paid.

Originally Posted by hill60

Nokia handsets came with regional licenses, if you wanted other regions you paid.

Originally Posted by hill60

Now it is free, worldwide.

Originally Posted by hill60

Nokia has paved the way for Google to offer free voice guidance anywhere on earth as to charge for licenses is anti-competive, especially from NavTeq the source of Nokia's "free" GPS maps.

Originally Posted by hill60

How can Nokia charge wholesale buyers for a product that is "free", unless it isn't "free" and they are dumping it into the US.

Originally Posted by hill60

If a US company makes a complaint, Nokia are screwed.

Originally Posted by hill60

Tell me under what jurisdiction, anywhere on earth, has it been shown that a phone cannot work without Nokia's technologies?

Originally Posted by hill60

Motorola manufactured the first GSM phone, which Nokia technology was used in it seeing as it was prior art.

Originally Posted by jfanning

No, the maps applications was fully funcational, it was just missing navigation which you had to licence.



No, you could download any map for any part of the world for free, again without navigation, but still free.



Always was, you are referring to navigation



How is it anti-competive? Anti-Comptive is when you produce a multimedia application for your computer and won't let anyone else have direct access for it, or is that a competive advantage, just like Nokias has?



Now, that comment is just plain stupid, maybe you can get away with it in k-mart, but in the real world, no. How is the product free if I have to got purchase a phone to use it? Does that mean that all the applications that come with the phone are "free", or does it mean that Nokia will now be taking less of a profit due to them giving the funcationality away?



No they won't be, it just means those 12 customers in the US won't get to use the funcationality, the rest of the world, including Australia will just be fine.



If Nokia is one of the holders of key GSM technologies, how can you make something that connects to GSM without using one of those technologies. Now I know you are a k-mart worker, so this won't come to you too quickly, but it is a fact, and a fact that Apple hasn't denied.



According to history, Nokia had this honour, can you post a link to this claim of yours?

Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns

Check and mate. Game, set, match: winner jfanning.