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ITC formally investigates Apple over Nokia patent complaints - Page 3

post #81 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Don't worry, hill60 won't allow something like facts to get in his way.

It is pretty embarrassing though.
post #82 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Dude, your head has got to hurt from banging it on the wall trying to explain things. Is it really worth your time? Some people simply do not have the capacity to learn.

Yeah I know, but it is first thing in the morning so the pain of head smacking has worn off from the previous day
post #83 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

In K-mart Australia, where I apparently work sweeping floors they have them 6220 classics, comes with an Australia and New Zealand regional license, of the trial, of the voice guided licences which formerly cost $A99 a year to continue the trial.

That is a navigation licence, not a maps licence, big difference. And the 6220 isn't supported for the free navigation.

I have a E65, it is a old Nokia Smartphone, I have maps on it for most of europe, US, Canada, and Aussie/NZ, I don't have navigation though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

So Nokia was guilty of false advertising by offering free region based trials on prominent stickers on their boxes of something Nokia spiv number one claimed was free.

As we have said over and over again, the free trial was for navigation, not maps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

"1991: World's First GSM Cellular System

Motorola demonstrated the world's first GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications) working-prototype cellular system and phones in Hanover, Germany, in 1991."


Source

So let's play games until the FACTS of the case are decided, for the ramblings of jfanning are nothing but that, unfounded ramblings.

yet Nokia (and most sites you read) says...

http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/com...first-gsm-call

You might want to take note of the bit saying Nokia supplied a GSM network in 1989, two years before Motorola supplied the first one, and they had commerical phones in 1992.
post #84 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

What are you talking about, a rambling nonsense post given by a Nokia spiv containing a mixed bag of half truths and unfounded claims.

The navigation licences which were previously charged for covered specific regions, the city guides etc.

In K-mart Australia, where I apparently work sweeping floors they have them 6220 classics, comes with an Australia and New Zealand regional license, of the trial, of the voice guided licences which formerly cost $A99 a year to continue the trial.

So Nokia was guilty of false advertising by offering free region based trials on prominent stickers on their boxes of something Nokia spiv number one claimed was free.

"1991: World's First GSM Cellular System

Motorola demonstrated the world's first GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications) working-prototype cellular system and phones in Hanover, Germany, in 1991."


Source

So let's play games until the FACTS of the case are decided, for the ramblings of jfanning are nothing but that, unfounded ramblings.

He refuted every single one of your claims. It is obvious you do not know the difference between navigation and maps. Stick to what you know. Nokia has included maps for quite a while but the turn-by-turn add to the maps cost money. You don't get that yet? Anyway, you got owned. Man up and just move on. It is better to be thought a fool than to continue opening your mouth and proving it.
post #85 of 93
What are you talking about, a rambling nonsense post given by a Nokia spiv containing a mixed bag of half truths and unfounded claims.

The navigation licences which were previously charged for covered specific regions, the city guides etc.

In K-mart Australia, where I apparently work sweeping floors they have them 6220 classics, comes with an Australia and New Zealand regional license, of the trial, of the voice guided licences which formerly cost $A99 a year to continue the trial.

So Nokia was guilty of false advertising by offering free region based trials on prominent stickers on their boxes of something Nokia spiv number one claimed was free.

"1991: World's First GSM Cellular System

Motorola demonstrated the world's first GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications) working-prototype cellular system and phones in Hanover, Germany, in 1991."


Source

So let's play games until the FACTS of the case are decided, for the ramblings of jfanning are nothing but that, unfounded ramblings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Check and mate. Game, set, match: winner jfanning.
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post #86 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

What are you talking about, a rambling nonsense post given by a

"1991: World's First GSM Cellular System

Motorola demonstrated the world's first GSM (Global System for Mobile Communications) working-prototype cellular system and phones in Hanover, Germany, in 1991."


Source

So let's play games until the FACTS of the case are decided, for the ramblings of jfanning are nothing but that, unfounded ramblings.

Since you want facts, take a look at the end of this link:

http://press.nokia.com/PR/199710/776687_5.html

Nokia made the first GSM call with the First GSM phone and network while Motorola was showing _prototypes_. And Nokia provided the first commercial mass produced phone for two years before others and made several test calls in Radiolinja's (the network where the worlds first GSM commercial phone call ever was made) several years before the first ever commercial GSM call (that too on a Nokia phone and Nokia provided network).

Regs, Jarkko
post #87 of 93
Prior art is what it's called in Patent Law, GSM phone's were thought of and working BEFORE Nokia started producing them.

Sharp had a camera phone two years BEFORE Nokia placed a camera module in a phone in 2002 as they mentioned in the complaint they filed.

Heck, Nokia wasn't even the first to release a Symbian phone, that was the Ericsson R380.

Prior art, if something has already been invented OR it is an obvious step forward from previous inventions THEN a patent is on very shaky foundations.

Which puts us back to Nokia's patents NEVER being tested in the past, they just ASSUME their validity.

Dumping is a different matter and it will be interesting to see whether anyone will bring this up before the ITC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen View Post

Since you want facts, take a look at the end of this link:

http://press.nokia.com/PR/199710/776687_5.html

Nokia made the first GSM call with the First GSM phone and network while Motorola was showing _prototypes_. And Nokia provided the first commercial mass produced phone for two years before others and made several test calls in Radiolinja's (the network where the worlds first GSM commercial phone call ever was made) several years before the first ever commercial GSM call (that too on a Nokia phone and Nokia provided network).

Regs, Jarkko
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post #88 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Prior art is what it's called in Patent Law, GSM phone's were thought of and working BEFORE Nokia started producing them.

I think it is time you shut up while you are behind. Two of us have proved you wrong now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Sharp had a camera phone two years BEFORE Nokia placed a camera module in a phone in 2002 as they mentioned in the complaint they filed.

What is your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Heck, Nokia wasn't even the first to release a Symbian phone, that was the Ericsson R380.

What is your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Prior art, if something has already been invented OR it is an obvious step forward from previous inventions THEN a patent is on very shaky foundations.

What is your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Which puts us back to Nokia's patents NEVER being tested in the past, they just ASSUME their validity.

Are you trying to say that is your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Dumping is a different matter and it will be interesting to see whether anyone will bring this up before the ITC.

It isn't dumping, one day you might realise this. But I imagine if someone does complain to the ITC, Nokia might ask the Finnish government to talk to the WTC about it.
post #89 of 93
No-one has proved anything, that's up to a court of law to decide.

The reference to the camera module was due to Nokia bringing it up in their complaint...

...their point?

Did you read the complaint, Nokia's lawyers have done a fairly good job of painting a prose filled picture of Nokia as the sole innovator of cell-phones, but I guess they are just doing their job painting their client in the best light possible with a tainted veiwpoint of reality.

Back to the dumping, last week if you wanted voice guided GPS on a Nokia phone you paid a licensing fee, just like you pay a licensing fee to upgrade your Navman, Tom-Tom or whatever.

This week you don't.

The value last week vs the value this week could be considered dumping, offering something of value for free in order to disadvantage competitors who will have to price match to remain competitive.

As I said before it is almost an exact replay of Microsoft's actions in the browser wars and will probably have much the same impact.

This WILL affect American companies and MAY lead to a lot stronger case than the one Nokia is putting against Apple.

Another example, Nokia took a speaker in a box, like say a speaker in a box that has been around since the invention of speakers, they shrunk it to fit inside a cell phone, where is the innovation in that?

Making space in a cellphone to put in a speaker, well what else are you supposed to do, hang it externally with a wire?

The same goes for the aerial it's a piece of metal, it has to go somewhere, if there is a box with a speaker in it in the way, it has to go over, under or through it, where else can it go?

Prior art, an obvious extension of a previous invention


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I think it is time you shut up while you are behind. Two of us have proved you wrong now.



What is your point?



What is your point?



What is your point?


What is your point?



What is your point?


What is your point?



What is your point?


What is your point?



What is your point?


What is your point?



What is your point?


What is your point?



What is your point?



Are you trying to say that is your point?



It isn't dumping, one day you might realise this. But I imagine if someone does complain to the ITC, Nokia might ask the Finnish government to talk to the WTC about it.
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post #90 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

No-one has proved anything, that's up to a court of law to decide.

Yes I think we have, you placed a claim by Motorola, we showed you examples of how that is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Did you read the complaint, Nokia's lawyers have done a fairly good job of painting a prose filled picture of Nokia as the sole innovator of cell-phones, but I guess they are just doing their job painting their client in the best light possible with a tainted veiwpoint of reality.

No, that is how you read it, anyone with half a brain will know that Nokia isn't the inventored, or the innovator of the cellphone, they were around long before Nokia got into the game. But they were heavily involved in the development of GSM technology, and patented a lof of their innovation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Back to the dumping, last week if you wanted voice guided GPS on a Nokia phone you paid a licensing fee, just like you pay a licensing fee to upgrade your Navman, Tom-Tom or whatever.

This week you don't.

For nine models yes, a small subset of Nokia's available phones for sale. But if you don't own one of these models you still have to go purchase one. An example, I have an E65, I can't get free navigation for it. I thought you claimed you worked in the phone store?

If I wanted a GPS unit today, I would have to pay money to the maker, be it Nokia, TomTom, or Apple, just like most people out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

The value last week vs the value this week could be considered dumping, offering something of value for free in order to disadvantage competitors who will have to price match to remain competitive.

So adding a new feature and not charging for it is now called dumping, right.... You better hope Apple doesn't add any new features to the iPhone OS then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

As I said before it is almost an exact replay of Microsoft's actions in the browser wars and will probably have much the same impact.

No it isn't, when will you realise that it only affects nine handsets, nine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

This WILL affect American companies and MAY lead to a lot stronger case than the one Nokia is putting against Apple.

So, why should I be concerned if this affects American companies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Another example, Nokia took a speaker in a box, like say a speaker in a box that has been around since the invention of speakers, they shrunk it to fit inside a cell phone, where is the innovation in that?

Now you are just dribbling, your agruments are getting more stupid as you post.
post #91 of 93
Maybe you would be better equipped to answer that first question, why ARE you concerned enough to defend Nokia on these forums regarding their actions in various bodies of the US's judicial and regulatory systems?

Are you familiar with the work of Beckett?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

So, why should I be concerned if this affects American companies?


What is your point?
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post #92 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Maybe you would be better equipped to answer that first question, why ARE you concerned enough to defend Nokia on these forums regarding their actions in various bodies of the US's judicial and regulatory systems?

Are you familiar with the work of Beckett?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot?

Because of the ignorance of so many people on these forums, I am not defending Nokia, I am correcting ignorance. I would do the same for Apple, if I felt the need, on other forums if placed in the same situation.
post #93 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Which puts us back to Nokia's patents NEVER being tested in the past, they just ASSUME their validity.


Now I'm getting to be in agreement with you. Like I said previously, it's not a case of who made the first mobile phone or GSM phone, it's about individual patents and did either of the companies a) break them and b) are they valid patents and c) the FRAND thing.

As for a GSM phone being prior art. You know just as well as anyone that many of the technologies were patented before that and many new ideas to improve on individual design were patented later.

As for the camera in Sharp's phone, sure they were first, but the Nokia claim if you read it carefully is not about the camera, it's about the single chip solution. Is that a valid patent covered by prior art? It's up to people who understand the patent stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Dumping is a different matter and it will be interesting to see whether anyone will bring this up before the ITC.

I don't have any clue as to is allowing paid for (as in the phone price, Nokia's words) navigation in phones dumping or not (note that maps have been free all the time with other vendors including Apple).

Could you give your view on my comment about bundling iLife and Client Access Licences in Apple products? Is that dumping or not? Where's does the line go? I'd truly like to understand. Is it based on market share?

About "defending Nokia". Like I said in my first post, when things start looking too one sided with a lot of assumptions instead of fact, I try to poke in "the other view" and try to support it with facts. If I give personal opinions, I try to state that as clearly as possible.

I'm not trying to support Nokia or any other company inparticular. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what's going on and possibly even help others achieve that as well. Isn't that one purpose of discussion and debate? This just happens to be an Apple fansite, which naturally leads fact seekers to be the dischord, or "defendant of the others" when debate starts. I probably would be doing the same in the case of SE, Samsung LG or such. On other sites, Apple might get the "preferred treatment".

Regs, Jarkko
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