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Why communism cannot work.

post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45271,00.html" target="_blank">http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45271,00.html</a>

China will become another Russia in less than a decade. Communism just doesn't work and the people won't stand for it when it reaches a point. I don't understand. Why would they KILL them instead of putting them in prison?
post #2 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong><a href="http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45271,00.html" target="_blank">http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,45271,00.html</a>

China will become another Russia in less than a decade. Communism just doesn't work and the people won't stand for it when it reaches a point. I don't understand. Why would they KILL them instead of putting them in prison?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Foxnews? I thought there were more vitamins in a Danish than quality in Foqnews.

Communist? Ever since they applied the "who cares what colour the cat has as long as it catches mice?" to their economic policy I don´t think anyone could truly call China "Communist". China is nothing but liberal economy and anti-liberal civil rights. The only thing Communist about the China is the sign above the ruling partys head quarter. Its as communist as GWB is a hyper intelligent shade of blue.
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post #3 of 42
The thing that remains of China's Communism its its centralized control of all aspects of civil life: they are no longer communist in practice (never were) merely authoritarian with exeptions for business that makes money.
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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #4 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>The thing that remains of China's Communism its its centralized control of all aspects of civil life: they are no longer communist in practice (never were) merely authoritarian with exeptions for business that makes money.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well that is perhaps a more precise way of saying what I was trying to say. Liberal economy and anti-liberal rights: The worst combo ever.
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post #5 of 42
[quote]Liberal economy and anti-liberal rights: The worst combo ever. <hr></blockquote>

that would be an apt description of Fascism... if you were to append that it was all of that under the guide lines of Aesthetic Principles.

Anyway, Communism can not work because it is not organic and is based on ideas as to what substative qualities constitutes human nature: meaning, that it defines the way people are to live based on an image of what people are: a fixed image of the human essence.
but, people are not any one way, they are vital and dynamic: that is why capitalism, with a fluid and shifting sense of government input of order, that cannot be rigidified without inherent struggle is best so far.

The only way Communism could work is if humans were to evolve into some kind of superOrganism where basically, we were no longer human.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #6 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Foxnews? I thought there were more vitamins in a Danish than quality in Foqnews.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

So the source of the news makes it invalid?
post #7 of 42
There has never been a True communist regime in any given country...its always a form of totalitarianism masked as communism to get people to think that its all good(doesn't need to be exterem totalitarianism...but its never TRUE karl marx communism)

Communism is not designed to be global, all so called communists(short maybe cuba, I don't know much about cuba, except that dictatorship!= communism) have either had plans for or have thought of global control

communism Cannot work on a world scale, it was never designed to work globally, it was designed more for smaller countries, but the power mongers took it and spit it out so that the peasants said "well its communism...we must be happy" while the ones in power abused their power...ya know?

think about the word
Communism
commune....community...communities are not the world, communities are small congregations of people that all work together to live.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Wrong Robot ]</p>
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post #8 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

So the source of the news makes it invalid?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sometimes it does but not in this case.
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post #9 of 42
As has been said earlier, China isn't exactly communist. They have a very crude market economy with an enormous bureaucracy that seems to be more concerned about power than economics.

As for your topic, I have to question it on technical grounds. Communism can "work" in that it can manage to be applied to a nation, and it can hold for at least a bit. If you ask me if I think Communism is effective, I'll say hell no. Even EU socialism is showing to be highly ineffective. I have really enjoyed watching Europe slide and stagnate under its growing waves of incompetent socialist regimes which have really taken control over the past 15 years or so.
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post #10 of 42
Communism according to Marx demanded that it be a global phenomena. That is why Lenin established the "dictatorship of the Proletariat as a transitional model and why it was a necessarily expansionist form of government. THe west was not just parranoid when they established a policy of containment, it was, in part, due to the explicit definition of teh ideology that stated that it needed global reach.

So you clearly are completely wrong.... perhaps that is due to a romantic nastalgia for an unworkable ideaology?!?!
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #11 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Sometimes it does but not in this case.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Facts are facts. It doesn't matter who reports them. Why bring it up in this case? Shaming China doesn't fit in with your liberal agenda? Doesn't move you closer to the workers' utopia?

Everyone thinks Fox is to the right but I think its more the case that they report on things the other media doesnt care to report. That tends to be the stuff to the right.
post #12 of 42
Thread Starter 
ANYWAY, this saddens me. I thought China was on board with us to fight terrorism (from religious zealots) only to find out they themselves are anti-religious zealots.
post #13 of 42
Find out? They've always been that way.
post #14 of 42
So the source of the news makes it invalid?

Hypothetically, so if there was a report in the New York Times that Bush did something inappropriate, you wouldn't consider the scource?

I dunno, I myself always consider the bias of the reporter and the news orginiztion, as well as my own personal bias when trying to decipher the news.
post #15 of 42
Just tell me what Bush did and I'll decide for myself if it was inappropriate or not. The fox report is based on facts. We can verify if X number of people were arrested. See the difference?
post #16 of 42
Don't really care what the story said, didn't even read it. I was more interested in whether or not you considered the scource when discerning truth from fiction in the media, Scott.
post #17 of 42
I have been to China for a couple of months and I tell you - the situation is really bad there- I was horrified to watch public executions and humiliations (the crowd spitting on the prisoners, etc...) in television and on marketsquares, all under the banner of the chinese combination of 'Socialism' and Capitalism.
Of course I was a stranger and a mean tourist there but I have never been in a country where people were more unfriendly and where money meant that much in personal relations. Hardly fitting with the ideals of utopian communism.. And on top of that, I never saw a country more polluted and eroded as a result of all the years of socialism.. :-(
Disclaimer: This is not written to insult any individual chinese or to say that there are no friendly chinese anywhere in the World, even in China. This was just my general impression of the country.
post #18 of 42
Thread Starter 
I work with several Chinese and they are some of the most humble and shiest people I know. They are friendly but not in the typical american way of being overtly talkative and striking up conversations. But very polite, intelligent, insightful, and quiet. I guess the ones that want a brighter future and that can, come to nations that can encourage individualism and creativity.
post #19 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by trick fall:
<strong>Don't really care what the story said, didn't even read it. I was more interested in whether or not you considered the scource when discerning truth from fiction in the media, Scott.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I base it on the information in the report. That's how most normal people do it.
post #20 of 42
Who was it who said, "Communism is a great idea that will never work"?

I can think of only one situation in which communism could work and at this point it's purely fictional - Star Trek.

In the Star Trek scenario technology has made money meaningless as appearantly endless sources of energy, replicators, and planets to inhabit have eliminated the competition for goods and services.

For some reason people still work out of an idealistic zeal to improve oneself. And they do add conflict from other species as a cheap out for explaining why we would still be united.

I suppose if I could have a replicator, a holodeck, a space-ship, and teraform any planet i liked then I'd be ok with communism.

P.S. You ever wonder why the all wear red in ST NG?

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post #21 of 42
Notice how they never talk about the economy in Star Trek. Who pays for all these people to do that work?
post #22 of 42
China barely follows communism, mind you so did the USSR.
However no, it can not work. Communism requires a dictator to be put into effect and the freedom of a democrasy to work, and neither can be had.
Now if you could CONVINCE people to be communist, raise a generation of communists or gather communists fro macross the world together, then MAYBE you could create a communist state.
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post #23 of 42
Well I did some research, and I retract ALL my statements about communism, My history teacher lied!!! she told us most of the stuff I was telling here, and its mostly all wrong.
however one thing does stand
there have been no real commusit regimes since its conception...totalitariansim, dictatorships, stalin's reign was almost fascist...but TRUE karl marx communism has never been really oput into effect.
one thing that communism definatly stands FOR is free speach(believe it or not) and basically most of our bill of rights, fall nicely into the communist manifesto...however ambitious rulers have taken the ideals of communism and seriously ****ed around with it, masking their true goals...or something like that. on top of that, for YEARS capitilists (U.S in particular) have been conditioned to think communism=bad
without any real reason why...so its natural to be against it if you an american...its education which is the key to making your own judgements anyway.

disclaimer...I'm still in the process of learning more about this, so forgive me if I don't know what the **** I'm talking about. I plan on reading the communist manifesto tonight, then I'll be sure to have a better outlook on it

I do like this discussion though, I feel communism needs to be understanded more, cause what I DO know about it doesn't seem so bad.
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post #24 of 42
Stupid people + Lazy people + Greedy people= No communism.
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post #25 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Notice how they never talk about the economy in Star Trek. Who pays for all these people to do that work?</strong><hr></blockquote>

They got replicators, dude! Work is optional or at least the requirement for workers is so small that volunteers can fill the void. I think I remember reading that the pyramids were actually built not by slaves, but by volunteers who worked for food, water, makeup, and something to do. I can sorta see this working. I mean, wouldn't you get kinda bored sitting on your ass after a while?

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post #26 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Nordstrodamus:
<strong>

They got replicators, dude! Work is optional or at least the requirement for workers is so small that volunteers can fill the void. I think I remember reading that the pyramids were actually built not by slaves, but by volunteers who worked for food, water, makeup, and something to do. I can sorta see this working. I mean, wouldn't you get kinda bored sitting on your ass after a while?</strong><hr></blockquote>


You'd you get bored building replicators all day long?
post #27 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>
You'd get bored building replicators all day long?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Up late too, eh? I would assume that one could replicate replicators. Or maybe have holographic characters assemble them.

Man, we're solving world problems here.

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post #28 of 42
I always wondered about Star Trek TNG. The serie started under Reagan (evil empire and all) and when "communism" still ruled in Soviet and east Europe. And still they have no money, people don´t care so much about themselves but work for a higher goal and they always try to go that extra mile to understand other species even when they are shot at aso. The first two episodes Picard is put under trial by Q for all humanities wrongdoings and he manages to convince Q that we have evolved beyond egoism since our times. Do anyone remember when TNG started? Were there anyone yelling "Commie" against it?

Someone must have written about TNG in a sociology context (not the sociology of Enterprise but how the serie was perceive and understood in accordance to the "real" society). I have tried to find anything on this on the net many times but can´t find anything.
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post #29 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

So the source of the news makes it invalid?</strong><hr></blockquote>

uhhh, YES. do you believe everything MOSR and theregister post?

btw i happen to agree that communism cannot work, just couldn't figure out your logic there
post #30 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

I base it on the information in the report. That's how most normal people do it.</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #31 of 42
Facts are facts. It doesn't matter who reports them.
Ahem...
Chocolate rations were increased today by -14%.
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
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post #32 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Splinemodel:
<strong> Even EU socialism is showing to be highly ineffective. I have really enjoyed watching Europe slide and stagnate under its growing waves of incompetent socialist regimes which have really taken control over the past 15 years or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I consider myself liberal (almost opposite of being socialist here) so I am not biased to see everything the socialist governments are doing as the right thing: Europe (or rather the european countries) have been doing better in the last 10-15 years than it did in the 80s. Let me take Denmark as an example: In the 80s both our government and the country as a whole had a deficit and in the late 80´s we had an unemployment rate at 12% and owed one year GNP away. Now our unemployment rate is 4,3% (very low compared to how our labour market works) and according to the new governments plan our national loans will be paid within seven-ten years. And in same periode we managed to get much higher standart of living and let our help to third world countries and former second world ones grow from 1% to 1,5%. The overall unemployment rate in EU is 7.6% Try compare all this to US figures.

Certain countries like Germany have had a harder time than others for obvious reason (I dare US to accept half of Russia as the 51 state and then try to get it to US standard in all areas and see how you would be doing ten years from now).

The problems in Europe have very little to do with the colour of the governments. And the socialists governments in Europe is mostly of the "third way" kind which is a strange mix of socialist-conservative elements (the direct opposite of liberalism in my book).

I know that Denmark is a very special case of success but I haven´t seen rest of europe go the exact opposite way. The formula for us have been a very open economy (I think more than 50% of our production is exported and visa versa) and EU really need to embrace that as a whole and stop protecting special interests like farmers (which is protected by the right winged at least here in Denmark).

This is not an attempt to say "We are better than You" but to use the economic development in the last ten years in Europe as an example of how bad socialism work is wrong since 1: It haven´t been a bad decade for us and compared to the 80s it have been a really good one, 2: It haven´t been real socialist governments.

In short:
Denmark under Conservative right winged gowernment in the 80s: Higher unemployment rate, deficit and very slow economy.
Denmark under pseudo socialist government in the 90s: Reduced unemplyment rate to almost a third, surplus on government spending and international trade, reduced state and international loans and very active economy.

[Edit: some figures and added some text]

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #33 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Certain countries like Germany have had a harder time than others for obvious reason (I dare US to accept half of Russia as the 51 state and then try to get it to US standard in all areas and see how you would be doing ten years from now).</strong><hr></blockquote>

East Germany = half of Russia? And wasn't East Germany supposed to be a communist showcase anyway? How come they were still so far behind the west?

One more thing: Marx wasn't just describing his idea of an ideal economic order. He was also supposed to have outlined a theory of history. Marxism was alleged to be a scientific inevitability. It wasn't.
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post #34 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
In short:
Denmark under Conservative right winged gowernment in the 80s: Higher unemployment rate, deficit and very slow economy...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Define Denmark's version of right wing. How big was the public sector? How much of the workforce was unionized? Was your health care system socialized?
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post #35 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

East Germany = half of Russia? And wasn't East Germany supposed to be a communist showcase anyway? How come they were still so far behind the west?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Half of russia is to USA as east germany is to West germany. And "showcase"? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> The economy of East Germany was an integrated part of Eastern Europe so what does it help that their industry was half shitty instead of completely shitty when it is of no use (okay i´m exaggerating to get my point across). Perhaps East Berlin was a real showcase. Karl Marx Straße is impressive but I have also been to East Germany before the unification and thats a different story.

[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>One more thing: Marx wasn't just describing his idea of an ideal economic order. He was also supposed to have outlined a theory of history. Marxism was alleged to be a scientific inevitability. It wasn't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Beside the fact that Marx didn´t say much about the future but concentrated on the revolution that lead from feudalism to capitalism historical materialism suffers from flaws in its fundament. But many accepted theories have flaws like it (psycho-analysis to name one) and Marx is used widely in many areas of social sciences and is an very important theorist in areas like sociology and social anthropology. I find more truth in the liberal side of sociology (Weber and the tradition after him) but Marx is an important inspiration to critical theory, Foulcault and Habermas (very important theories and theorists in sociology) and many others.
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post #36 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Define Denmark's version of right wing. How big was the public sector? How much of the workforce was unionized? Was your health care system socialized?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Very different than yours. But if you take status quo and see what way the government want the development to go I say it was right winged: We got private hospitals under them, the educational system was streamlined (more business orientated), they opened up for outsourcing of public work (but still paid via taxes), less focus on unimployment figures and more on economy (although they failed big time on both). The public sector was reduced and they wanted to make changes to our health care system but knew the population wouldn´t accept it (they would loose the next election). And luckily our government doesn´t decide if people should be allowed to be member of unions (why would this be a indicator of how right winged a government is :confused: ) .

The pseudo-3rd way-socialist government that took over from them perhaps didn´t want to drag us over to the left but rather let the things stay more status quo. But they used a classic euro-socialist strategy to kick start our economy: spent spent spent (pure Keynes) and it was actually a huge succes on all areas. On top of than focus came on environment (in food production, wind turbines and other areas), the unemployed (and not the conservative type "trickle down" economy but education aso), the infrastructure aso.

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #37 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
And "showcase"? </strong><hr></blockquote>

The best example of a communist state.

[quote]<strong>The economy of East Germany was an integrated part of Eastern Europe so what does it help that their industry was half shitty instead of completely shitty when it is of no use (okay i´m exaggerating to get my point across). </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, so what's so great about communism again?
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post #38 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Very different than yours. But if you take status quo and see what way the government want the development to go I say it was right winged...</strong><hr></blockquote>

In other words, not something I'd recognize as conservative.

[quote]<strong>And luckily our government doesn´t decide if people should be allowed to be member of unions (why would this be a indicator of how right winged a government is :confused: ) .</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not a matter of government deciding if people should be allowed to belong to a union. It's a question of how difficult is it for a business to function and not be unionized.
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post #39 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Yeah, so what's so great about communism again?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Eh? What about asking a communist?
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post #40 of 42
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

It's not a matter of government deciding if people should be allowed to belong to a union. It's a question of how difficult is it for a business to function and not be unionized.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What do you mean by unionized then? Our wages are agreed upon by what the buisnesses are willing to pay and what people are prepared to work for. In reality its agreed between the unions of companies and workers and both are very satisfied by this model. Even though we don´t have a official minimum wage here in reality noone over the age of 18 work for less that $10 not even at McDonalds. And the companies have an interest in paying a relative high wage for a large part of that wage go into the educational system through taxes and they don´t have to pay for medical insurance aso. But on the other hand is it very easy to fire people here because we have relative generous unemployment benefits. If this model was a problems I think it would be hard to have both a high average income, surplus and low unemployment rates at the same time. I think the companies would flee the country asap.

[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>
In other words, not something I'd recognize as conservative.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No thats why words like "liberal" and "conservative" can´t be taken as meaning the same on both side of the atlantic but what I described is taken as right winged economic policy here. But the original claim that I wrote my reply to was that socialist governments had been bad for Europe in the 90s and I show that a relative more socialist orientated government had been much better for us in the 90s than a lesser one had been in the 80s.
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