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Outrageous judging in Pairs Figure Skating

post #1 of 72
Thread Starter 
There is absolutely no way the Russian pair fairly beat Sale and Pelletier. What a disgusting result.

Countries that put the Russian pair on top:
Russia, China, Poland, Ukraine, France

Countries that put the Canadian pair on top:
USA, Canada, Japan, Germany

Eastern Bloc + France. Sheesh.
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post #2 of 72
I agree. I've seen the commentators upset at Russian domination before, but never to the point that they were tonight. It was like everybody there, including the Russian skaters, knew what was going on, but nobody could do anything about it. I hope this makes a difference in the future.
I don't guess boycotts in certain events work, but it makes you feel helpless.
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post #3 of 72
I hadn't seen the breakdown of judges before. That's interesting.

The TV commentators acknowledged the Russians' routine was more difficult. So perhaps the Eastern judges put more emphasis on the technical side, while the artistry of the Canadians appealed to the Western judges? I'm just talking off the top of my head here.
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post #4 of 72
Thread Starter 
Except the Russians got lower marks for technical merit and higher marks for arstistic merit.

There were 3 visible minor mistakes and one glaring mistake in the Russian free skate whereas the Canadian pair skated flawlessly...and the Canadian pair has probably the best 'lift' in the competition...it spans the entire rink.

There is no way fair judging would have put Sikharulidze and Berezhnaya on top.
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post #5 of 72
[quote]Originally posted by CaseCom:
<strong>I hadn't seen the breakdown of judges before. That's interesting.

The TV commentators acknowledged the Russians' routine was more difficult. So perhaps the Eastern judges put more emphasis on the technical side, while the artistry of the Canadians appealed to the Western judges? I'm just talking off the top of my head here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Canadian's routine was also two years old...still they were the best. Maybe next time don't run into the Russians during practice...
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post #6 of 72
I didn't see enough of both of them to tell. I wouldn't know what to look for anyway.
post #7 of 72
The russians had a beautiful routine that they screwed up in. Not gold medal material. Who cares how old the other routine was, they executed it flawlessly. They should have won. Adn what is with the US getting 5th? Was it that bad?
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post #8 of 72
It's a disgrace. I just cannot imagine anyone watching that competition and placing the Russians over the Canadians. That gold medal was won before they even stepped onto the ice.

You could tell watching the Russians during the medal presentation that they knew they didn't deserve the medal. Of course it's not their fault, but I think even they knew the Canadians won.

What else can you say. In my mind, and the minds of almost everyone in that watched that skate, the wrong team was given the gold. It's not even debatable.
post #9 of 72
Isn't the event based on two days of skating. Like a short and long program? Or did I miss hear?

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #10 of 72
I missed the US pair's free skate (had to piss sometime) but from the earlier short program it seems that the eastern judging had it in for them too. They were better than 5th on the short program, but the Chinese and Russian pairs that finished 3rd and 4th were already placed ahead of them for the short. Which, honestly, was crap. On that night at least, the American pair was third. The 2nd russian pair made two obvious errors, and the Chinese couldn't have been any stiffer. The Americans weren't perfect either, but they were easily ahead of the 2nd Russian pair. At a minimum they were 4th going into the free-skate. But their fates were already decided, and it just repeated on the last night.

NBC called it first and best, basically saying it was a bullshit, but expected, result. Curiously the Canadian media tried to play it cool, CBC was nearly comatose in their reaction. They needed a good couple of hours before they got a reasonable reaction out.

Just wait for the ice-dance! The perrenially shafted Canadian pair will have to sskate a gold medal performance just to have a chance at bronze. Look for Russia and Lithuania (basically two eastern pairs) and Italy and France (two countries who aren't sure whether they're commies or not) then everybody else.

THIS ISN'T A SPORT! It's a competition sure. But as a competition it's more like the 'Survivor... Iced' than an Olympic contest. TIME TO GET RID OF THIS JOKE.

North American figurer skating could fight back where it counts, in the pro ranks, by boycotting ALL EASTERN SKATERS. I bet Eastern Amatures would get their sport/judging federations in line if they soon found that being associated with then cost them lucrative pro/'ice show' money.
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post #11 of 72
Wow! Matsu it into it. Maybe this is why I perfer the events with a timer or a real score.
post #12 of 72
Judging controversies always come up in the Olympic figure skating events. Nancy Kerrigan also was the best skater (19??), but was given silver, in favor of Oksan Baiul.(Spelling?) Michelle Kwan got the same shaft when the gold was given to Tara Lipinski, in my opinion. That one wasn't east vs. west, as both were representing the U.S. Seems there's at least one bad call in every Olympics.

BTW, I watched the pairs finals, and I agree that the Canadians had a better performance. Scott, at that stage, ususally whoever wins the long program gets the gold, because the winner came in at 1, 2, or 3 to begin with. The scores are so close that the long program winner couldn't possibly finish second.
post #13 of 72
my wife is a figure skater, she skated for years before she had to stop for grad. school.

she was appalled at the scoring. i guess the russian's didn't do that great of a job, and the canadians were amazing.

lol, it totally reminded me of "The Cutting Edge", if anyone has ever seen that movie, they'd know what i'm talking about.

what i'd really like to see is a 60 minutes style interview with all the judges. especially the parts where they grill them about their bogus decision making.

about the only thing that could have made that entire mess decent was if the russian pair had the decency to give the gold medals to the canadians right there, and have them play "O Canada" instead. (and being the cynical bastard i am, i can't help but think that would have really helped the russian's marketability in the future)

lol, reminds me of another old classic, "Best of the Best". something along the lines of the end of that movie would have been perfect there, but of course didn't happen.

all in all, i was really disappointed. it's unusual that something i watch on TV is enough to piss me off, but i was really mad after watching that crap they called scoring.

i still want to see some kind of expose´ with the judges.

-alcimedes
post #14 of 72
I'd hope that something comes out of all of this, but most likely it'll probably become another Olympic footnote of a "judging controversy."

You'd think that the IOC would hold themselves and their judges to the same standard of excellence that they ask of the competitors...
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post #15 of 72
Thread Starter 
Gregg, not quite. Oksana Baiul was without a doubt the best skater in Lillehammer. She could do arched spins nobody else could do and her skating was much more effortless than Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan.

And while I was cheering Michelle Kwan in Nagano, again, that was a close call, and less controversial.

Yesterday's results were not close at all.
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post #16 of 72
Thread Starter 
It's a simple as arithmetic. The placement is determined by the sum of the judge's two scores for the free skate.

Russia, France and Ukraine put the Russian pair on top.

Poland had 5.7/5.9 for Sikharulidze and Berezhnaya. 5.8/5.8 for Pelletier and Sale.

China had a similar tie for scoring.

USA, Canada, Germany and Japan put Pelletier and Sale on top with the higher score.

So China and Poland's judges could have voted either way, and they voted for Russia. You could blame them, but I prefer to blame the judges that scored the Russian pair so high in the first place.
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post #17 of 72
Skaters sign up for the job knowing that their talents are judged subjectively. There is no finish line to cross or time to beat like other sports. Things like this have happened before (Kwan and Lipinski). It's a part of the game they play.

I think the Canadians' reaction was unsportsmen like and does a disservice to skating as a sport and spirit of the Olympics. Instead of being proud and having the honor of representing their country at the Olympics and winning silver, theses twits can't get over their own pride and self-righteousness. The greatness of the Olympics is not in the individual athlete-- it is in one having the honor of being there it represent your country. Be sure that many many pairs skaters would have gladly taken last place in the games for the chance just to compete.

Skating as a sport is in a terrible state. Did you know skaters don't leave any of their equipment unattended for fear of sabotage? It drove one girl to put a contract out on another's knee. Meanwhile, the alpine jumpers walk over to their skis all lined up against the wall. After the gold jumper wins, the silver instantly congratulates their better. Skating today is cut-throat and has no honor.

As an aside, I'd also like to rant a bit on NBC-- What are they trying to do turn this into? Jerry Springer on ice? Ugh. I'm inclined to say that perhaps it might be media bias? Canada= friends of North. Harmless. Russia= big scary nation of yore. An evil empire. Anyhow, just a thought.

(This poster feels they are qualified to comment upon skating happenings. He grew up in Lake Arrowhead, California-- a small town that is the home to one of the most premiere skating training centers in the world. While growing up there I had the chance to meet a whole host of skaters and to get to know them and their life styles very well.)
post #18 of 72
[quote](This poster feels they are qualified to comment upon skating happenings. He grew up in Lake Arrowhead, California-- a small town that is the home to one of the most premiere skating training centers in the world. While growing up there I had the chance to meet a whole host of skaters and to get to know them and their life styles very well.) <hr></blockquote>

he he, well, i grew up in MN, a state where all anyone does all winter long is skate. and not only did i meet skaters, i dated them and married one. based on their judgements the scoring was complete crap, and the russians should have been ashamed to accept those medals.

and there's a difference between subjective and flat out wrong. these judges were just plain wrong.
post #19 of 72
Judges make their marks independent of the others. It's not a jury system. They can't conspire against particular skaters.

Still, I think my above post was more themed towards the state of the sport and where the conduct of skaters and NBC was unbecoming of the spirit of the games.

As for dating skaters alcimedes, me too! ... *sigh* it's hard... any advice to offer?

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Arakageeta ]</p>
post #20 of 72
[quote]Originally posted by Gregg:
<strong>Judging controversies always come up in the Olympic figure skating events. Nancy Kerrigan also was the best skater (19??), but was given silver, in favor of Oksan Baiul.(Spelling?) Michelle Kwan got the same shaft when the gold was given to Tara Lipinski, in my opinion. That one wasn't east vs. west, as both were representing the U.S. Seems there's at least one bad call in every Olympics.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oksana Baiul won because she skated her ass off beautifully and flawlessy and destroyed Kerrigan. Kerrigan was far from the best skater at Lillehammer.
post #21 of 72
Ahhh, didnt we always know that the olympics were fixed?
What I want to know is how China came in third. They were AWFUL! A mediocre performance with enough slips and mess ups to make you wonder how they got here in the first place.
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post #22 of 72
The judging has certainly always been the interest in figure skating. I'm pretty certain it nearly caused an escalation of the Cold War on more than one occassion.

But I have to agree, why is it considered a sport? Surely it should fall into the same category as other forms of dance.

Hmm, if figure skating is a "sport" at the Winter Olympics, perhaps ballroom dancing should be at the Summer Olympics? Or perhaps some sort of dance marathon?

Mind you, it annoys me that an event where contestants are more interested in their clothing, hairstyle, next supply, and sounding like a retarded 70's movie pimp in TV interviews than contesting is considered a "sport". (Snowboarding).
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post #23 of 72
Thread Starter 
Arakageeta, how could you possibly deny the clear lines between Eastern Bloc and everybody else? They don't have to conspire with each other after a performance, they can do so well in advance. China obviously scored down the Canadian pair in hopes of leaving ever so little breathing room for the final skate of the eveing...which happened to be a Chinese pair. This has always been an issue and it is only now more controversial. Judges can shake hands before the first marks are ever written down.

I think Sale and Pelletier handled the situation fairly well considering they had just received the biggest shaft in the history of figure skating.

As for why China got the bronze, The top 3 pairs are definitely a class ahead of the rest. Their skating is my dynamic and more explosive. They can afford more mistakes than other pairs...to a point. When any of the top 3 teams skates flawlessly as Pelletier and Sale did, it's near impossible to win gold unless you to skate flawlessly.

The conduct of NBC and the Canadian pair reflected the opinions of everybody in that arena and watching the competition on TV. NO WAY.
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post #24 of 72
[quote]I think the Canadians' reaction was unsportsmen like and does a disservice to skating as a sport and spirit of the Olympics. Instead of being proud and having the honor of representing their country at the Olympics and winning silver, theses twits can't get over their own pride and self-righteousness.<hr></blockquote>

Sorry, but you are out to lunch on this one.

I for one, couldn't believe the restraint shown by Sale and Pelletier. They basically said they did the best they could to, and they're proud of that. They skated the best skate they could, and controlled what they could control - their skate.

Unsportsmanlike? Give me a break.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
post #25 of 72
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>The judging has certainly always been the interest in figure skating. I'm pretty certain it nearly caused an escalation of the Cold War on more than one occassion.

But I have to agree, why is it considered a sport? Surely it should fall into the same category as other forms of dance.

Hmm, if figure skating is a "sport" at the Winter Olympics, perhaps ballroom dancing should be at the Summer Olympics? Or perhaps some sort of dance marathon?

Mind you, it annoys me that an event where contestants are more interested in their clothing, hairstyle, next supply, and sounding like a retarded 70's movie pimp in TV interviews than contesting is considered a "sport". (Snowboarding).</strong><hr></blockquote>


Belle,

normally (actually always) you make smart posts and I agree 99% with them but this one was just dumb.

figure skating not a sport? if that's not a sport I have no idea what is. If you don't think that takes amazing athleticism and fitness then you are blinded by something I can't identify.


BTW, I think ballroom dancing is in the summer olympics?
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post #26 of 72
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>Hmm, if figure skating is a "sport" at the Winter Olympics, perhaps ballroom dancing should be at the Summer Olympics? Or perhaps some sort of dance marathon?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought ballroom dancing WAS coming to the summer Olympics next time around...
post #27 of 72
In a sense it isn't a sport. It's a competition on many levels. Important manouvers are required off the ice for anyone to have success. Sure the best dozen or so get to the top, but there is an uncomfortable subjectivity about the whole thing which isn't eased at all when judges act with less than good faith.

I think these 'judged' disciplines can only earn an honest space in sport if they can somehow furnish a culture of objectivity and fairness in their judging. Right now they have a culture of collusion, and it isn't good for 'Sport'. If this continues the best thing to do would be to get rid of all these 'performance' disciplines (gymnastics, figure skating, snow-boarding). Yet these are huge draws and the organizers know it, so they'll just keep on keeping on. However, they continually slip away from a proper notion of sport.

And belle, your absotutely right! That half pipe competition was the most disturbingly un-olympic thing I've seen in years. On wonders if the gays in figure skating talked like pimps, hmmm... that could be entertaining! I
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post #28 of 72
sport Â*Â*Pronunciation KeyÂ*Â*(spôrt, sprt)
n.
1.\t
a.\tPhysical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b.\tA particular form of this activity.

2.\tAn activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
3.\tAn active pastime; recreation.
4.\t
a.\tMockery; jest: He made sport of his own looks.
b.\tAn object of mockery, jest, or play: treated our interests as sport.
c.\tA joking mood or attitude: She made the remark in sport.

5.\t
a.\tOne known for the manner of one's acceptance of rules, especially of a game, or of a difficult situation: a poor sport.
b.\tInformal. One who accepts rules or difficult situations well.
c.\tInformal. A pleasant companion: was a real sport during the trip.

6.\tInformal.
a.\tA person who lives a jolly, extravagant life.
b.\tA gambler at sporting events.

7.\tBiology. An organism that shows a marked change from the normal type or parent stock, typically as a result of mutation.
8.\tMaine. See summercater. See Regional Note at summercater.
9.\tObsolete. Amorous dalliance; lovemaking.
post #29 of 72
post #30 of 72
When is the ladies? Michelle Kwan is a hottie.
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post #31 of 72
Sure, figure skating is a sport, but the judging is only slightly less crooked than in boxing.
post #32 of 72
Why not have the judge from the country of the skater not judge? That way, the appearance of impropriety is removed.

(In the meantime, let's promise all of the judges homes in the Bahamas if they vote for the Americans? fahgedabboutdit!)


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post #33 of 72
Gee. Corruption in the Olympics. Who would have ever suspected.
post #34 of 72
Thread Starter 
No judging is more crooked that from Iron Chef!
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post #35 of 72
Thread Starter 
There are allegations that the French judge had a prior agreement to vote Russian in Pairs Figure Skating, in exchange for a French vote from the Russian Ice Dancing judge when the time comes.
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post #36 of 72
Oh man! Don't tell me that.
post #37 of 72
The Canadian chick is hot.

She wins the Groverat Award.
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post #38 of 72
The chicks seem to be much hotter in the winter games than the summer games.

Oh and someone send an othrodontis to China for Gods sake.
post #39 of 72
<a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter02/figure/story?id=1330977" target="_blank">Sources say Russian and French judges made deal</a>

[quote] Sources within the International Skating Union have told ESPN/ABC Sports figure skating reporter Christine Brennan that a collaboration between the French and Russian judges helped spark the controversy that has the skating world and the Winter Olympics abuzz.

The Canadian Olympic delegation on Tuesday requested an investigation into why Russians Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze won the gold medal when many observers feel that Canadians Jamie Sale and David Pelletier were more worthy.

Brennan, one of the world's leading authorities on figure skating, says that reliable sources within the ISU told her that a collaboration between the French and Russian judges did happen.

"When (figure skating officials) investigate, I think they're going to find out that the French judge worked a deal with the Russians," said Brennan, one of the world's leading authorities on figure skating.

"There's absolutely no doubt that the Canadians should have won. Their 'Love Story' program was just marvelous. The performance was perfect.

"The Russian pair made small errors including a small mistake on one jump. To me it's clear. It should have been crystal clear for the Canadians."
<hr></blockquote>
post #40 of 72
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>The chicks seem to be much hotter in the winter games than the summer games.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's because the chicks in the summer games have to be athletes, and the winter games chicks just have to slide around and make pretty poses on the ice, and smile.
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