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Apple's iPad promo materials misleading on Adobe Flash support - Page 3

post #81 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by techno View Post

I wonder if Flash on the iPad would make it feel snappier.

Actually, Flash is a processor hog and even Adobe is phasing it out as a player switching gear to make it a content creator.ine that Jobs was just ru HTML 5 bypasses Flash movies to play them within the browser not via a plug-in (I think that's how it works) and is MUCH snappier. The iPad doesn't have Flash because it doesn't need it. That's why it is working on the web promo. As for the Keynote presentation, either jobs was thumbing his nose at Adobe or the version of Safari for iPhone OS (3.2?) doesn't have HTML 5 compatibility yet.
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post #82 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

I smell a class action law suit coming..

Class action suit about what?
post #83 of 175
Flash is on it's way out and has been for a very long time. Designers don't want to use it, it's expensive for small shops to invest in (think independants) and has a huge learning curve, on top of that updating the files can be pain for people that have smaller sites with heavy flash nav / content etc., they have to pay someone to update it.

Flash is great for an art gallery to have a 'cool' site, but then people are just clicking things to see the interaction more than actually paying attention to or caring about the content on the site.

If the biggest knock against the iPad is that there is no flash support, well that really doesn't mean too much, the same arguement is made over and over, "no flash no sale", "but I can't watch hulu!". These same people are the ones that will bitch about and dump Hulu before you can blink when they go to a full pay subscription model. So then what will their arguement against the iPad be?
post #84 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

... And yeah, YouTube is Flash too, so care to explain yourself?

YouTube is also available as h264 content. It's just not the default.
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post #85 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

Flash is on it's way out and has been for a very long time. Designers don't want to use it, it's expensive for small shops to invest in (think independants) and has a huge learning curve, on top of that updating the files can be pain for people that have smaller sites with heavy flash nav / content etc., they have to pay someone to update it.

By that logic Porsches and Ferraris should be on the way out as well. People who don't like Flash should just uninstall it and not complain when they can't see content designed to be delivered in Flash.

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post #86 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

Steve Jobs is far too meticulous in preparing his presentations to have "accidentally" opened a website with Flash that the iPad can't display. I have to believe that he knew full well what he was doing, and it was intentional.

It was a message to web developers, and it said: "We've sold millions and millions of iPhones without Flash and made so much money we can't even count it all. We intend to do the same with this new device. And if you want your websites to work properly on our shiny new toy, you need to stop using Flash."


later this year when flash 10.1 ships, more cell phones will have it than there are iphones
post #87 of 175
click to flash

Spread the word!
post #88 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

Flash is on it's way out and has been for a very long time. Designers don't want to use it, it's expensive for small shops to invest in (think independants) and has a huge learning curve, on top of that updating the files can be pain for people that have smaller sites with heavy flash nav / content etc., they have to pay someone to update it.

Flash is great for an art gallery to have a 'cool' site, but then people are just clicking things to see the interaction more than actually paying attention to or caring about the content on the site.

If the biggest knock against the iPad is that there is no flash support, well that really doesn't mean too much, the same arguement is made over and over, "no flash no sale", "but I can't watch hulu!". These same people are the ones that will bitch about and dump Hulu before you can blink when they go to a full pay subscription model. So then what will their arguement against the iPad be?

most networks still let you watch the last episode or two for free via a flash window. i used to watch Terminator Chronicles and BSG directly from the websites like that. and even if Hulu starts charging, there will always be free limited episodes available. on almost every device except the iphone and iPad that is
post #89 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I agree, and I wonder how long it will be before Adobe responds with a lawsuit or simply pulling it programs off the Mac.

Looking at the iPad, the future of locked down, dumbed down, no choice but what Steve says sort of computing, that Steve would be very happy if Adobe did pull their programs off the Mac.

Jesus, what the hell has gotten into him?
.

He's keeping malware off his products.

A lawsuit for a company to force another company to use and support it's products.

Wow - you have a great handle on law. Remind me to run away from you if I ever have to go to court.
post #90 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by tink View Post


It just works!
\

It's to the point of stupid not to support flash in the iPad... Unless of course it cant actually run it!

The marketing message to the average consumer:

The device is not capable.
You can't access most of the multimedia available on most every website.
Your web browsing experiencing is impotent....you're impotent..
Was I just taken by this company.



Build in a default Clicktoflash implementation, get your point across to Adobe, block the spam, empower the user, don't instill the feeling of impotence in the users web browsing experiencing your selling..

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post #91 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Class action suit about what?

About his stamping nerd feet over something no one cares about and many don't even want.
post #92 of 175
If you really wanted to have Flash on an iPhone you could try to get an iPhone app approved that could interpret Flash and then by Implementing Custom URL Schemes in your app, info.plist and code your web page to launch your custom app to render the content outside of the web page just like YouTube links do.

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post #93 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel B View Post

Like it or not, but Flash is a reality on the Internet. In the promo video, Apple repeatedly talks about the iPad as the best way to surf the web.

People may have accepted missing Flash on the smaller screen of the iPhone, but I think it will not be accepted on the iPad, a full-size web device.

/Daniel

I agree completely! When I tell potential iPad buyers that it will not let them use Pandora and Facebook at the same time...let alone browse sites that rely on flash, You should see their interest in the iPad shut off! they aren't interested in the politics between Apple and Adobe or the hardware needed to run Flash and /or multitask. It should "just work" and be the "Internet in their Hands". Pretty weird Apple.
post #94 of 175
There is no basis for a suit because the image in the promo materials doesn't show the Flash image as "loading," as you suggest. It simply shows an image on a web page. Nowhere does the promo attest that the iPad is Flash-capable. Only a fool would see the loaded page on the promo and then navigate to that page on a computer, see that there is Flash on it and then make a purchase based on that determination.

This would be akin to a lawsuit based on the fake images on televisions in Best Buy Sunday circulars.

It would be different if the promo were a movie that showed the Times page loading Flash. "Loading" means the URL is typed in and the page loads live in view of the consumer.

Like others have said above, Jobs deliberately viewed MORE THAN ONE page with Flash content. His message was not "this device is not a capable device." His message was "F U Adobe and F U all the whiners who think we need Flash." Not saying he is wrong or right--but there's no way he didn't know the non-loading content would be there for all to see.
post #95 of 175
Given SJ is always so well prepared I have to believe he was intentionally showing Flash not loading. He also was clearly not phased at this even lingering on pages showing it without so much as a comment.
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post #96 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilgto64 View Post

I smell a class action law suit coming.... although not exactly sure how it would be written.

Simple: "Apple made a product that failed to do everything we thought it should, then compelled us to buy it with their Jedi mind tricks. This clearly amounts to fraud."
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post #97 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

I'm glad that the iPad does not support flash
Nobody cares about flash.
My grandmother doesn't even know what flash IS.
Flash would run down the battery.
The iPad is BETTER because it does not include flash.

I might be the only one but I do care about flash. My kids visit pbskids.com, playhousedisney.com and nickjr.com just to mention a few and all the games are flash. My company creates interactive online content that requires flash (and would be very hard, if not impossible, to create any other way.) Are flash ads annoying? Yes, but at least there are ways to turn it off. If those same ads were created in HTML 5, are there tools available to block them too? Is it is a resource hog and run less efficiently on a Mac than PC, yes but where is a widely adopted alternative that I could use right now that offers all the benefits of flash without any of the downsides?

By the way there is a very interesting article for those of you into the whole flash debate here:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01....html#comments
post #98 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulk001 View Post

I might be the only one but I do care about flash. My kids visit pbskids.com, playhousedisney.com and nickjr.com just to mention a few and all the games are flash. My company creates interactive online content that requires flash (and would be very hard, if not impossible, to create any other way.) Are flash ads annoying? Yes, but at least there are ways to turn it off. If those same ads were created in HTML 5, are there tools available to block them too? Is it is a resource hog and run less efficiently on a Mac than PC, yes but where is a widely adopted alternative that I could use right now that offers all the benefits of flash without any of the downsides?

By the way there is a very interesting article for those of you into the whole flash debate here:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01....html#comments

Ditto!

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post #99 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulk001 View Post

I might be the only one but I do care about flash. My kids visit pbskids.com, playhousedisney.com and nickjr.com just to mention a few and all the games are flash. My company creates interactive online content that requires flash (and would be very hard, if not impossible, to create any other way.) Are flash ads annoying? Yes, but at least there are ways to turn it off. If those same ads were created in HTML 5, are there tools available to block them too? Is it is a resource hog and run less efficiently on a Mac than PC, yes but where is a widely adopted alternative that I could use right now that offers all the benefits of flash without any of the downsides?

By the way there is a very interesting article for those of you into the whole flash debate here:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/01....html#comments


Great post and thanks for the link. Really excellent points in that article.

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post #100 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

I think you may be mistaken, but I'm not positive. If you look at the pictures they both appear to be in Safari.

Stevie you may be right about these particular shots. On one of the images, the one showing Scott Roeder's trial there's a section which says Front Page Podcast for Jan 29 which is definitely not on my Mac's version of today's paper in Safari. I don't see even the Scott Roeder article on today's paper on the web on my Mac's Safari (and today is Jan 29 which is the date shown in the screen grab.

We won't know for certain until we see what the NYTimes app looks like vis a vis iPad Safari. On the other hand, what I do remember seeing when the NYTimes people came on stage to demo their new iPad App was that all the things the Times use Flash for were shown as working and one has to presume that like YouTube it was H.264. Since Flash can be a wrapper for H264 it won't be hard for the Times to encode in H.264 and then multipurpose their video content depending on the app that's hitting the page.
post #101 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intosh View Post

Strange. It works fine on every PCs I own and no problems yet on my mobile device. Don't tell me a huge company like Apple can't figure out Flash -- if there's a will, there's a way.

See. This is a reason why Apple fans have bad rep: some Apple fans are blinded by their love for the company and, moreover, they spread fallacies and FUD in an attempt to support their tainted opinion.

You do know that Flash works on Macs right?
Apple can make it work. Apple just chooses to forbid Flash on the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad.
I suggest you read the link I provided earlier in this thread. There's no reason for me to re-type that. Can you figure out how to find older posts?
http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp

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post #102 of 175
Since people have been mentioning it, but not directly:

youtube.com/html5


Safari 4.04 running on a 2006 C2D Macbook-10.6.2 with 10 tabs open and clickToflash enabled (so there's no ads or crap running in the background) uses 9% to 14% of the CPU cycles. If I go to youtube and watch a video in flash, the flash plugin adds another 33% to 50%, percent to the processor load, plus safari uses at least an additional 10%. If I use the HTML 5 option for the same video, safari's cpu cycles go up about 15%, and there's no flash plugin running.. (tried to average between 6 different videos, your mileage may vary)

Flash has always been a second class citizen on the mac platform, hell almost 3rd class.. Adobe hasn't done anything to remedy the situation. They obviously have put more work in on the windows plugin.

I can go both ways with flash support on the iPad, there's definitely more of a reason to have it than on iPhone/iPod Touch. Even if they did add it, I'd want ClickToFlash on to stop all the crap flash ads from popping up .

As it stands right now I could do 95% of what I use this laptop for on an iPad, that remaining 5% would be watching embedded flash videos, and maybe using CSSEdit, and BBEdit.. If I'm doing any sort of image editing page layout or video editing I do that on my desktop, and that sort of thing I'll always do on my desktop.


If Adobe actually put some time in on the Arm based flash plugin, and it was efficient, and Apple added ClickToFlash to mobile Safari, I'd say we'd have the best of both worlds..

I'm not counting on it though..
post #103 of 175
As the iPad is more an iteration of the iphone than a Mac, I would assume that Flash is not going to be joining us anytime soon.

Everyone mentions this flash website or that website, but Apple in their usual fashion is going to force everyone else to conform to the path it creates. And you know what? If iPad is half as popular as the iPhone/Touch, developers will listen in even greater numbers. Due to the iPad size, I think you will see a much broader adoption of web development that is compatible with it. I'm not a Flash basher, this is Apples path not mine.

What has Apple really lost by not including Flash to date? According to their revenue and stock numbers, not much. At this point I would be shocked if they included Flash support. Where's the motivation?
post #104 of 175
Folks, this is just to funny!

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQnT0...video_response


Skip
post #105 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

When Steve Jobs introduced the iPad on Wednesday, his live demonstrations with the device clearly showed the Safari browser was not capable of playing Adobe Flash. However, promotional images on Apple's Web site show that same content loading just fine. ...

This is a bit lame isn't it?

So someone at Apple will see this and the ad will be changed. Big deal.

Or perhaps the NYT is about to go Flash free in return for the heavy product placement?
post #106 of 175
Apple will never enable Flash on iPhone or iPad, it's all about business model. Apple wants to stay in control of iTune market.
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune....pple-cold-war/
post #107 of 175
If you think that video or even banner ads are keeping Flash alive, you're missing a very powerful lobby of interest and money. It's what the end user doesn't see that makes Flash a valuable money maker.

Flash has the ability to write to a user's hard drive. Flash can covertly bypass browser security using Flash cookies that can be executable code. The cookies are deeply nested so the average user doesn't even know they exist. They usually never expire, and they have the ability to phone home all sorts of data about the user.

It's this covert invasion of privacy that should alarm the public not the bugs in Flash.
post #108 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

I'd hope that any device running iTunes can log on to it too. The more portals, the more penetration.

I could like without the iBookstore on the Apple TV, but it should be accessible from every Apple computer, mobile device and iTunes installatio, just like the iTunes and App Stores.

And that would include all Windows PCs as well, since iTunes runs on PCs.

By the way, what iTunes is doing to Windows PCs is exactly what Apple doesn't want Flash to do to its mobile devices. Apple is a ruthless competitor (and that's why I own its stock).
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post #109 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

they have the ability to phone home all sorts of data about the user.

Like what? Only the information you provided in the first place.

Points to consider:
Only read cookies that come from the same domain

User can deny all Flash cookies and view cookies by going to the user settings page at Adobe

User can delete or deny specific domains by right clicking on the movie go to settings.

Flash cookies do not contain executable code. Flash can use data stored only when a movie is playing and of course a Flash movie is capable of executing code.

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post #110 of 175
Personally, I only want to see Flash if ClickToFlash is built in. I hate my MacBook Pro fans spinning up every time I go to a page that runs Flash not to mention the battery drain.
post #111 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Simple: "Apple made a product that failed to do everything we thought it should, then compelled us to buy it with their Jedi mind tricks. This clearly amounts to fraud."

Where does apple state it plays flash? Where? Its not like Jobs got up and stated,"One more thing....It now supported flash".

No where in the keynote does this state this fact.
post #112 of 175
HTML5 only helps with playing videos, Flash can do a whole lot more than that. Actually, using Flash to play videos or display ads is dumb, the platform can do so much more than that that it's ridiculous to downplay it so much.
But HTML5 is not the solution. Sure, it will play video. IMHO, using Flash as a video player was not a good idea in the first place anyway. But it won't let you access the various Flash RIA, which is where the platform trully shines.

That's actually the real problem. Flash and AS3 and the Adobe librairies is a real platform. It should be handled by real developers, not by designers who program by Google and copy/paste. The fact that we know have at least four MVC frameworks for Flash should be a hint at the level of complexity it has now reached. We're even starting to see decent IoC frameworks.
That's a major problem : most Flash applications are built that people who do not have the slightest cue about what they're doing. Most of the code is there because it was found on Google and "works". The result is that most Flash applications are sluggish and hog ressources. Really. For instance, I have seen Flash applications that will load and initialize ten times the exact same object instead of using caching. Worse : the designer was not even aware that it was doing this.
This is how we end up with a tiny animation hogging 25% of the CPU, even on Windows!

This is even more problematic on OSX. On Windows, the Flash plugin is very efficient, so bad programming can be hidden by the sheer processing power of modern computers. Not so on OSX where the Flash plugin is not exactly at its best.

HTML/Javascript faces the same problem. The platform is becoming too complex for the majority of the people using it. If Flash disappears, the same people who were making bad Flash programs will just move to HTML/Javascript, where they will still be making inefficient programs... It will just be more difficult to block them...
post #113 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Like what? Only the information you provided in the first place.

Points to consider:
Only read cookies that come from the same domain

User can deny all Flash cookies and view cookies by going to the user settings page at Adobe

User can delete or deny specific domains by right clicking on the movie go to settings.

Flash cookies do not contain executable code. Flash can use data stored only when a movie is playing and of course a Flash movie is capable of executing code.

The Flash plugin can read just about anything. The Mac OS is very integrated with the Address Book and other programs. Yes, executable programs are run by the plugin not within the cookies itself but who's to stop Flash developers from installing the executable code within the cookie or as an external Flash object. What domain the code comes from is irrelevant. The plugin bypasses Safari's cookie security.

How does a user deny a Flash cookie when they don't even know they exist, and even when they do, Abobe's esoteric interface design for Flash settings is not very intuitive to the average user. I find the settings don't alway work or keep the preference.
post #114 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by teunis View Post

I agree with Wiggin. As soon as I saw it I thought it was intentional. Not that Steve would say it out loud, but he was kind of saying "F you Adobe".
Strange. I'm okay with that.

A lot of people are saying that these days cause Adobe has actually made the web less accessible & not more.

Opera, who supplies many of the browsers to consoles & other non PC devices, can't support latest versions of flash because Adobe hasn't released an SDK for latest versions. Adobe's own plugin for Mac breaks a ton of permissions after install & crashes the browser like crazy (not to mention the horrendous CPU hogging).

Adobe keeps trying to put a new face on the same old crappy plugin & people are getting sick of it. I feel sorry for developers stuck using it as it's probably even more of a pain to move a web site off it's flash dedication than to move a company network from Windows to OS X.

I've gotten to the point where I try to avoid flash at all costs, even disabling it on my Mac using click2flash. Only time I ever miss it is when I watch Hulu or try to use a flash based plugin like on tokbox. Even then I find myself hating the experience because of how horrible the performance is, but then what else is there? We badly need HTML5, it will stomp out the horrible neusense that is Flash. We need it to come fast too cause Silverlight needs to be stopped before it gains any ground. Proprietary web plugins have ruined the web fore years & kept it's richest content stuck on a clunky PC when it could be doing soooo much more! Even Quicktime web plugin needs to go the way of the dodo.
post #115 of 175
I think Apple is making a big mistake by not supporting Flash on the iPad. The iPhone got away with not supporting flash as the web interface was not billed as the best internet experiance ever. I can see thousand of people buying the iPad without knowing that it cannot view the vast MAJORITY of the video avaliable on the web. When they find out it will not support flash they are going to be irate and want their money back. I think we will see great initial sales of these units and soon after see a lot of these thing on the refurb site after they are returned over this one issue.

I really like the iPad. I can live without multitasking and a built in camera. I would buy one for myself, my mom and possible my wife, but I know that they would hate it without flash support. All of us like to use Hulu, TV, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.. to view tv shows. I just could not buy on with this serious limitation of web content. Flash may be going away, but it will take several years for it to be replaced on the majority of the web sites that currently use it....

I have hope that Apple with include flash at the last minute, but I will not buy one until it does....
post #116 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lictor View Post

HTML5 only helps with playing videos, Flash can do a whole lot more than that. Actually, using Flash to play videos or display ads is dumb, the platform can do so much more than that that it's ridiculous to downplay it so much.
But HTML5 is not the solution. Sure, it will play video. IMHO, using Flash as a video player was not a good idea in the first place anyway. But it won't let you access the various Flash RIA, which is where the platform trully shines.

That's actually the real problem. Flash and AS3 and the Adobe librairies is a real platform. It should be handled by real developers, not by designers who program by Google and copy/paste. The fact that we know have at least four MVC frameworks for Flash should be a hint at the level of complexity it has now reached. We're even starting to see decent IoC frameworks.
That's a major problem : most Flash applications are built that people who do not have the slightest cue about what they're doing. Most of the code is there because it was found on Google and "works". The result is that most Flash applications are sluggish and hog ressources. Really. For instance, I have seen Flash applications that will load and initialize ten times the exact same object instead of using caching. Worse : the designer was not even aware that it was doing this.
This is how we end up with a tiny animation hogging 25% of the CPU, even on Windows!

This is even more problematic on OSX. On Windows, the Flash plugin is very efficient, so bad programming can be hidden by the sheer processing power of modern computers. Not so on OSX where the Flash plugin is not exactly at its best.

HTML/Javascript faces the same problem. The platform is becoming too complex for the majority of the people using it. If Flash disappears, the same people who were making bad Flash programs will just move to HTML/Javascript, where they will still be making inefficient programs... It will just be more difficult to block them...

You apparently haven't been following HTML 5 all that closely or you would have noticed that it's goal IS to replace the necessity for flash animation. There are many parts to HTML5 & not just the part regarding standards for web video content.

Furthermore, it isn't just developers making "bad flash", the plugin as a whole is inefficient & clunky. Bad flash developers only compound the need for strict standards.

To give you benefit of the doubt though, show us some flash done right, I want to see flash that doesn't actually bog down my computer & then I'll concede that maybe there is still a place for flash in this world.
post #117 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

If your viewing porn on your main machine, your a fool, if you use your real email with them or give them a credit card number your a bigger fool. If a exploit occurs, at the very least, all your unencrypted files are being uploaded and or read. At the worst, illegal pictures are being stored in your hidden caches or folders unknown to you, people have gone to jail for that.

Use a cheap Dell netbook with Ubuntu, it comes with Firefox, install Flash and install NoScript, turn off Java and Javascript. Keep the Dell in a safe hidden place and use it like you would a stack of porn magazines, in private. Learn how to reinstall the OS, or better yet, clone it from a clean backup after every use.

Your best to use a proxy server or a open wifi to mask your real IP address, as this can be used to find you. It's no guaranty from the government who has legal powers, but it does help against those who don't.

You know your way around; with that much precaution, seems like you d/l child porn 24/7.
post #118 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

The Flash plugin can read just about anything. The Mac OS is very integrated with the Address Book and other programs. Yes, executable programs are run by the plugin not within the cookies itself but who's to stop Flash developers from installing the executable code within the cookie or as an external Flash object. What domain the code comes from is irrelevant. The plugin bypasses Safari's cookie security.

How does a user deny a Flash cookie when they don't even know they exist, and even when they do, Abobe's esoteric interface design for Flash settings is not very intuitive to the average user. I find the settings don't alway work or keep the preference.

Well I have to disagree with most of this, As far as Evil Flash Developers exploiting the Address Book: If this were possible Adobe would have had their feet held to the fire a long time ago. You are going to have to point to some credible evidence for this to be at all believable. I'm pretty sure this would fall into the category of complete hogwash.

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post #119 of 175
Well,

At least one person already filed a FTC complaint agains Apple for false advertising.....

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/ipad-flash

Imagine how mad people who actually buy one will be.....
post #120 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by sranger View Post

Well,

At least one person already filed a FTC complaint agains Apple for false advertising.....

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/ipad-flash

Imagine how mad people who actually buy one will be.....

You mean the same people who own an iPhone/Touch that already know it doesn't work?? Gimme a break.

Apple's Ad folks are to blame, this is just a case of the right hand not talking to the left hand...not a conspiracy. What they need in their Ad department is an engineer to two who can actually verify the authenticity of their advertising.
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