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Apple reinventing file access, wireless sharing for iPad - Page 10

post #361 of 508
I read most the 9 pages of (mostly) rubbish being written here. Here are two points people who think this new abstracted filesystem is useless might want to consider:

1 - if you're reading this forum, you're not normal, and the iPad probably isn't aimed at you. You understand files and folders and good organisation. A lot of people don't, and this for them is a far simpler method of organising (or not) files.

2- when the first car was invented, someone would have told people "I've made this cool thing you can drive around without steam power and without man power." Most sensible people would have not responded "That's ridiculous, how are we going to steer it?" Currently, in this thread, a lot of people are saying 'what about this, what about if I want to do that?' - it's probably been thought of.
post #362 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuncyWeb View Post

Unless the definition has changed recently, I may disagree with that statement:

com⋅put⋅er
  /kəmˈpyutər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhm-pyoo-ter] Show IPA
Use computer in a Sentence
See images of computer
Search computer on the Web
noun
1. \tAlso called processor. an electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations.

Well then a Kindle is a computer.

The Nook is a computer

Apple TV is a computer

iPod Nano is a computer

the shuffle is a computer

hmmmm I wonder how long I can go
Apple!

Think Different
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Apple!

Think Different
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post #363 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Actually, you're wrong. For years now, most computers have been bought by people for the home, with home use intended. It's been a long time, the mid 90's since most computers have been used for work.

Ok, I'm not disputing you, but could you provide a link that home computing use is greater than "other".

Quote:
Mac buyers buy the machines they do because they like them. The Macbooks outsell the Macbook Pros by a wide margin, and the iMacs, while used for pro work, are mostly not.

I also know plenty of people who buy MBP's because they like the way it's made, and the way it looks, as opposed to the plastic Macbook, but the Macbook is still Apples best seller.


Apple just revised the MacBook line, only keeping the white one and eliminating the others, why would Apple so that if it's their number one seller?


I'm not trying to troll, just I want to understand a bit better. So don't get pissed.
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #364 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileMe View Post

Well then a Kindle is a computer.

The Nook is a computer

Apple TV is a computer

iPod Nano is a computer

the shuffle is a computer

hmmmm I wonder how long I can go

Well technically yes, yes, yes, yes and yes it is! According to the dictionary definition, these are all computers in their own right. Next on the Discovery Channel, the mating habits of the Blue-Footed Booby.
Always remember..wherever you go, there you are.
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Always remember..wherever you go, there you are.
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post #365 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

That's actually what Google wants.


So Google is going to buy/merge with Apple then?

Because Intel certainly isn't now that Apple is making their own processors and I don't think Apple is going innovate very well without Steve at the helm.
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post #366 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

Apple is brilliant 95% of the time. But that doesn't change the fact that they're still infuriatingly stubborn the other 5% of the time.

One example that comes to mind: the Mouse. Apple brilliantly pioneered the GUI and mouse in consumer personal computers. Today EVERYBODY uses a GUI and mouse.

On the other hand, they resisted 2-button mouse functionality for years. THAT was retarded. They knew it was retarded, but it was a matter of pride for them.

It's OK to hide potentially confusing features from newbie users (i.e. the secondary click touchpad function) but it's not OK to completely hold back an essential feature such as this from millions of users who do need it.

Just because Apple is the only computer software and hardware maker who demonstrates any real level of innovation and commitment to the user experience doesn't mean that they should not be criticized when they make a boneheaded move.

And just to bring my comments back into context, I am NOT suggesting that the iPad should have a conventional Finder-type file management system. My comments were directed at the notion that Apple is "reinventing file access." There's a kernel of truth there, and I certainly hope they can reinvent file access, but their current direction on the DESKTOP, as evidenced by Aperture, Iphoto, etc., still needs a lot of work before it can become truly successful.

Apple never ever said that the 2-button mouse was retarded. And when was the last time Apple completely held back this essential feature? I have been using a multi-button mouse for years on my Macs. Haven't you.

Jobs' position is like a tailor who makes suits. Why spend all his time making gloves? It wouldn't matter what, he could never make a glove that would satisfy every hand or occasion. In Jobs' case, let Ballmer do it. Now there is a guy that would love to get in everybody's pocket and grab you by the.
post #367 of 508
A bit off topic, but there any word on the underlying OS of v3.2? I have to assume it's still Leopard, not SL with GCD and OpenCL, since it's still in the v3.x range.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileMe View Post

Well then a Kindle is a computer.

The Nook is a computer

Apple TV is a computer

iPod Nano is a computer

the shuffle is a computer

hmmmm I wonder how long I can go

I see your point, but I'd say yes to all of those. I can't speak for everyone but I'm certainly being pedantic when we say they're computers. However, I wouldn't say they are PCs (personal computers) despite being used for personal use.

I do have to wonder if there will be a market for the iPad to supplement a traditional PC market to some degree and if Apple had this in mind when they priced the iPad not far from the bargain-basement notebook prices. I suppose this will depend if the iPod and iPhone can be synced to the iPad and if it can be backed up to Time Machine without the use of a PC, which doesn't appear to be the case at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

So Google is going to buy/merge with Apple then?

Because Intel certainly isn't now that Apple is making their own processors and I don't think Apple is going innovate very well without Steve at the helm.

Oy vey!
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #368 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

Apple is brilliant 95% of the time. But that doesn't change the fact that they're still infuriatingly stubborn the other 5% of the time.

One example that comes to mind: the Mouse. Apple brilliantly pioneered the GUI and mouse in consumer personal computers. Today EVERYBODY uses a GUI and mouse.

On the other hand, they resisted 2-button mouse functionality for years. THAT was retarded. They knew it was retarded, but it was a matter of pride for them.

It's OK to hide potentially confusing features from newbie users (i.e. the secondary click touchpad function) but it's not OK to completely hold back an essential feature such as this from millions of users who do need it.

Just because Apple is the only computer software and hardware maker who demonstrates any real level of innovation and commitment to the user experience doesn't mean that they should not be criticized when they make a boneheaded move.

And just to bring my comments back into context, I am NOT suggesting that the iPad should have a conventional Finder-type file management system. My comments were directed at the notion that Apple is "reinventing file access." There's a kernel of truth there, and I certainly hope they can reinvent file access, but their current direction on the DESKTOP, as evidenced by Aperture, Iphoto, etc., still needs a lot of work before it can become truly successful.

They resisted it only with their own mice. You were able to use 2, 3 and 4 button mice. You could use trackballs and joysticks. You could use audio and video controllers.

You know, there's been a vast industry selling these things for over two decades now, and guess what, most are bought by PC users. No one had to use Apple's mouse.

I don't think a lot of people understand Apple, and what is possible.
post #369 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal 9000 View Post

Aren't "Folders" easier than that?

Not really. You still have to make up folders, give them a proper name, and when you throw things into them, figure out which folder it's in, if it's ambiguous.
post #370 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuncyWeb View Post

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. I believe a lack of organizational responsibility often extends far beyond the computer realm in today's society. I particularly enjoy the entertaining TV show that was just released recently by A&E entitled "Hoarders." Perhaps this a bit off-topic but I believe that, more often than not, this is simply a learned behavior rather than some sort of mysterious medical problem. But, back to computers. Can we become TOO dependent on them? I tend to think we can.

We certainly can.

My daughter thinks her computer is perfectly organized because she CAN find everything she has. She doesn't see why she must look for folders, and then look inside them when she can just quickly type a word or two, and there it is.

After all, who says folders are so great? We just like doing things the way we've been doing things. Doesn't make it right.
post #371 of 508
Another view.

The iPad and Informations Third Age

Perhaps a little biased, but Bill Rankin is no lightweight.

http://www.openculture.com/2010/01/t...third_age.html
post #372 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyourownthing View Post

i find it funny that people think they're being deprived of their freedom when they can't drag and drop from a folder to another like they do with finder...there are popover lists in the ipad, this will be achievable somehow or another

do you need to be looking at where in the hard drive your files are written? what sector and cluster? no, then this should be the same...and i doubt it restricts you in any way

People are so used to think "folder" that they can't imagine any other way. That's because people get locked into doing things in certain ways mentally.

Let's take a famous example. Everyone knows that the qwerty keyboard was designed in the 19th century when mechanics was not very sophisticated, and so they had to slow typing down. Now that mechanics have nothing to do with typing, we all know that the Dvorak keyboard layout is so much better, easier, and faster.

So how many people here use it?

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you!

And it's been around for decades.
post #373 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by freediverx View Post

If you place your complete trust in such a system, you're always just a misspelled filename or keyword away from losing an important file. Organizational systems need some degree of redundancy. And file folders, metaphorical or otherwise, are a great way to group related files so you can quickly find and isolate them when needed.

Projects are a great example of this. Let's say your working on a complex presentation with all sorts of files. Do you really want to wade through an endless search results list every time you want to access each individual file you're working with? Or is it simpler to just toss your project files into a folder where they will always be at your fingertips?

I fell in love with Spotlight the first time I used it. Over the years, though, I've noticed that sometimes there are quicker and easier ways to find what you want. Bottom line, I never rely on a single system.

It's just as bad with hierarchical folder systems. A letter or two away, and you may never find your file. People put files in the wrong folders all the time. I've done that too. Worse things happen.

But this whole thing is being blown far out of proportion.

Too many people here are talking as though this simple first gen product will be used by people with thousands of files from numerous programs. It ain't so.

People will use this for what it's suited for. At first, you aren't going to be using it for your projects, because the software hasn't been written for it. Maybe in several years, when it will have the features you need. If it doesn't get to that point, then you won't use it for that. Pretty simple when you think about it.

Meanwhile others will find it to be just fine. And you'll be surprised at how a broad a base that will be.
post #374 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Everyone knows that the qwerty keyboard was designed in the 19th century when mechanics was not very sophisticated, and so they had to slow typing down. Now that mechanics have nothing to do with typing, we all know that the Dvorak keyboard layout is so much better, easier, and faster.

I learned how to type ( with all the fingers) in high school when no guy would be caught dead doing "a woman's work." Turns out it was worth learning in the tech age.

But I see young people on blackberry's pecking away with their thumbs and wonder if I could beat them in a race of words per minute. The plastic keyboards were a new interface and people seem to have picked it up okay.

Then the touchscreen came out and all I heard from Apple naysayers was "I would like to get one but not until it has a physical keyboard." Now touch screens are all over the place and no one seems to mind anymore. I guess people naturally fuss at first and then accept it.

I for one quiver at the thought of loosing my full size keyboard and mouse. (shudder)
post #375 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileMe View Post

Well then a Kindle is a computer.

The Nook is a computer

Apple TV is a computer

iPod Nano is a computer

the shuffle is a computer

hmmmm I wonder how long I can go

Anything that computes is a computer.

But I think that the word "computer" is becoming obsolete.

When our clothes contain computers, as is being predicted, will they BE computers, or will they just have computing as one of their functions, the other of which will be to clothe us?

My camera has several computers, but it's not a computer.

My Tv runs on Linux, but it's also not a computer. Many audio components have computers, but they are not computers.

I suppose what it's used for gives name to the definition.

What do we think of today when we thing of "computing"? Is it arranging photos? Is it listening to music? Is it writing a letter? If not, then this isn't a computer, though it contains one.

We're abstracting tasks from the device as the device takes on more of the drudge work from us.

I don't consider it to be computing on our part, and so, maybe these are NOT computers per se, though they contain them.

I think that this is what Apple does best, given the possible level of technology at the time.
post #376 of 508
What I love is the passion this device is invoking, there are suddenly heated debates about the future not of apple products, but in computing in general - the next chapter.
post #377 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Ok, I'm not disputing you, but could you provide a link that home computing use is greater than "other".

If you provide the link "proving" that 90% are used for work.

No, I can't easily find a definitive link. But there has been so much written about this over the years, that you should have known.

Here's a few links.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/issuebrf/sib00314.htm

http://www.edweek.org/login.html?sou...l&levelId=2100

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...ay/635134.html

Quote:
Apple just revised the MacBook line, only keeping the white one and eliminating the others, why would Apple so that if it's their number one seller?

Ask Apple, but they're saying it's their biggest seller.

Quote:
I'm not trying to troll, just I want to understand a bit better. So don't get pissed.

I'm answering your questions, so I'm not pissed.
post #378 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

Plain HORRIBLE. Apple, please bring back the great Mac OS X file system! If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!

If everyone subscribed to that school of thought nothing would ever change! What's wrong with innovation? If people really don't like it, people won't buy it. Apple will adapt. But if it's a success, it could change a lot of things.

Why are people afraid of change?
post #379 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

So Google is going to buy/merge with Apple then?

Because Intel certainly isn't now that Apple is making their own processors and I don't think Apple is going innovate very well without Steve at the helm.

I don't see where you get the Google/Apple thing. At one time, before Google started copying Apple's product line, it looked as though they might merge. Their products were complimentary. But then Google began to compete with Apple, and now, all bets are off as to what will happen between them.

I could write a REALLY long post on this, but I'm sure you don't want me to. So I'll just write a slightly long one.

My take on where Apple is going now, because of Steve's long term vision, is to extend the iPhone OS. Heh, we had a thread (maybe it was early in this one) in which someone complained about Apple's use of "i" before so many products.

Well, I hate to see this OS referred to as the iPhone OS because the Touch, and especially the iPad are most certainly not phones, though they can make Skype and Vonage VOIP calls.

So, let's call it the iOS for now. It could be a worse name.

Apple is taking the iOS upscale with the iPad. I think it will continue to go further.

You see, he's being cagy here, and is leading developers down a path they don't even know they're taking!

So, the iPhone comes out without programming possible. Use the cloud is the first mantra, with a promise to make everyone happy with development later.

Then comes the SDK, and the app store. So everyone and their sister begins to write programs for these little devices. They become wildly popular, and so do the programs.

So, most every company starts writing programs for them. And I mean everyone. Media companies, industrial companies, software companies, governments, etc. So we've got a whole load of developers here.

But this is for a phone, right? So, well, it's ok then to get programmers to write for it with the different cpu, and different gpu with the limitations all small devices have.

But they're growing software development teams to write for it.

So, almost three years later, Apple announces the iPad. With the same basic OS, but with additional features, a more powerful hardware with a real computer sized screen.

Well now, there are over 140,000 apps that can run on this. but they run better when modded for it. So they start working on it.

But wait, it also can run iWork in modified form, and it's finally got a "real" keyboard, and a good, big virtual one. This is a new opportunity! So, we start to see more software companies hiring more programmers to write more sophisticated software.

Now, normally, companies don't want to change processors they're writing for, because they have to change their codebase over, and gain expertise with it all at once.

But hey, we're writing for phones, of COURSE we've got to work with a different hardware base, and a slightly different OS, which just HAPPENs to be based on full fledged UNIX so it's got far more power than any other phone OS.

Hmm! So now there are at least a couple hundred thousand programmers with experience on this platform.

And the platform expands over the years. Slowly but surely.

Next up, a model with 15" screen at maybe 1600 x 1200, and more powerful processors.

Then before you know it, these companies have almost as many programmers working on the iOS on ARM as they do working on OS X and x86.

But, guess what? The iOS machines are vastly outselling the machines using OS X and x86. Whoops!

As Apple reduces the OS X x86 machines in their line, most work is being done on iOS and ARM.

Guess what Apple is doing to these companies?

And the iOS is now the 2nd most used OS, and rising fast.

Well, where might we be in 2020?

What was that about the OS wars being won?
post #380 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

If you provide the link "proving" that 90% are used for work.

I was going by Microsoft's 90% market share and how they are the dominate in that market, also in devices like ATM machines, POS devices, CAD/CAM, engineering machines etc. to give a idea that the OP's claim that 90% of computers are just used for netbook type computing, wasn't realistic.

Perhaps 90% of home computers might be used for netbook type computing, but not 90% of all computers. Perhaps I should have said that instead.


Thanks for those links, it does show a pattern of increased home use (and what demographics) and the typical home does have a lot more computers than before. Also if you throw in the car, in the TV's, the microwaves and so on.

I guess what I was looking for is personal computers, how much were used in business and how much were used in the home.

If I come across such statistical information I will share it with you.
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post #381 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmadlena View Post

If everyone subscribed to that school of thought nothing would ever change! What's wrong with innovation? If people really don't like it, people won't buy it. Apple will adapt. But if it's a success, it could change a lot of things.

Why are people afraid of change?

It's why most people don't change jobs, or where they live, or their haircut.

They are afraid of change, because it may not work out. Change your job, and you may not do well there. It's a mentality of a lack of self confidence.
post #382 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I was going by Microsoft's 90% market share and how they are the dominate in that market, also in devices like ATM machines, POS devices, CAD/CAM, engineering machines etc. to give a idea that the OP's claim that 90% of computers are just used for netbook type computing, wasn't realistic.

Since the entire conversation is about personal computers and their evolution, ATM's aren't part of that. Neither are POS devices.

[uote]
Perhaps 90% of home computers might be used for netbook type computing, but not 90% of all computers. Perhaps I should have said that instead. [/quote]

Well, I suppose you could include mainframes, supercomputers, and the like, but they aren't part of the conversation.

The conversation includes Windows machines, but not server farms, because we're talking about PEOPLE using those machines, and people aren't USING those. Get what I mean?

Also Mac's and linux machines, where people are sitting in front of the machine doing something with it.

That's what counts.

Quote:
Thanks for those links, it does show a pattern of increased home use (and what demographics) and the typical home does have a lot more computers than before. Also if you throw in the car, in the TV's, the microwaves and so on.

I guess what I was looking for is personal computers, how much were used in business and how much were used in the home.

If I come across such statistical information I will share it with you.

Yes, personal computers.
post #383 of 508
Here's something kind of interesting to me: a while back, OxExige posted some info from Engadget, presumably unearthed from an anonymous, NDA breaking developer.

Like this:


New features I've uncovered:
• CoreGraphics to PDF API for sure, printer API is being prototyped
• Spell checker in text fields and web views using AppleSpell
- multiple languages
- grammar checking (English-only so far)
- address book integration
- user added words
- SDK access
- Included dictionaries: Apple Dictionary, New Oxford American Dictionary, Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus, Shogakukan Daijisen, Shogakukan Progressive English-Japanese Japanese-English Dictionary, and Shogakukan Ruigo Reikai Jiten (may also be used for a Dictionary app perhaps?)
• USB Host support or expanded Bluetooth support
- PTP support for transferring images
- MobileStorageMounter (perhaps used for PTP; perhaps used to mount external USB storage?)
- Hardware keyboard: USBKeyboardLayouts.plist
• Much richer text API including low-level access to font data and highlevel support for drawing formatted text
• Support for querying attached screens and choosing which screen a window draws on (App Store approved?)
• The beginnings of file upload in Safari
• Location-sensitive ads are being prototyped in integrated Maps application (and applications that use the maps framework)
• Ability for applications to modify the standard cut/copy/paste menu
• "Handwriting keyboard" is being prototyped.

And yet, here in a thread about what Apple intends for the iPad's file handling conventions, it has never been referenced again. Instead, we get increasingly intractable stuff about how the iPad will surely be virtually useless on account of being so "locked down" (which term is starting to look suspiciously to me like mindless invocation of demons) and "crippled" and "dumbed down" and what not.

Seems like there is some very, very interesting info in there, not in the least because it suggests that the iPad has ways of doing things THAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT YET.

(edited for typos)
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post #384 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Here's something kind of interesting to me: a while back, OxExige posted some info from Engadget, presumably unearthed from an anonymous, NDA breaking developer.

Like this:


New features I've uncovered:
CoreGraphics to PDF API for sure, printer API is being prototyped
Spell checker in text fields and web views using AppleSpell
- multiple languages
- grammar checking (English-only so far)
- address book integration
- user added words
- SDK access
- Included dictionaries: Apple Dictionary, New Oxford American Dictionary, Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus, Shogakukan Daijisen, Shogakukan Progressive English-Japanese Japanese-English Dictionary, and Shogakukan Ruigo Reikai Jiten (may also be used for a Dictionary app perhaps?)
USB Host support or expanded Bluetooth support
- PTP support for transferring images
- MobileStorageMounter (perhaps used for PTP; perhaps used to mount external USB storage?)
- Hardware keyboard: USBKeyboardLayouts.plist
Much richer text API including low-level access to font data and highlevel support for drawing formatted text
Support for querying attached screens and choosing which screen a window draws on (App Store approved?)
The beginnings of file upload in Safari
Location-sensitive ads are being prototyped in integrated Maps application (and applications that use the maps framework)
Ability for applications to modify the standard cut/copy/paste menu
"Handwriting keyboard" is being prototyped.

And yet, here in a thread about what Apple intents for the iPads file handling conventions, it has never been referenced again. Instead, we get increasingly intractable stuff about how the iPad will surely be virtually useless on account of being so "locked down" (which term is starting to look suspiciously to me like mindless invocation of demons) and "crippled" and "dumbed down" and what not.

Seems like there is some very, very interesting info in there, not in the least because it suggests that the iPad has ways of doing things THAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT YET.

Yes, exactly!

That's what I've been saying as well.

We don't freaking KNOW.

All the hyperbole being thrown about as what it won't do is not just guesswork, but seems to be the hope of some.
post #385 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't see where you get the Google/Apple thing. At one time, before Google started copying Apple's product line, it looked as though they might merge. Their products were complimentary. But then Google began to compete with Apple, and now, all bets are off as to what will happen between them.

I think because of Steve's health at the time, it might have been a option to merge Apple with Intel or Google to insure it's survival. It certainly looked like Apple was being groomed.

Quote:
My take on where Apple is going now, because of Steve's long term vision, is to extend the iPhone OS. Heh, we had a thread (maybe it was early in this one) in which someone complained about Apple's use of "i" before so many products...


It's obvious Steve now has some problems on his hands.

Because he didn't include Apps on OS X UI and allowed the two to compliment each other and let that help sell Mac's. Rather he decided to create a whole new iOS UI based upon phone UI and extend that to computers, he now is facing the file management and other problems that have been conquered long ago in OS X UI.

He's reinventing the wheel! The creatives have run amock!

It would have been so much easier to just port the OS X UI to the iPad, but the lure of total freaking control was too much for him. He's got his hardware lock again with the A4 processors, what more does he need?

He should have made the iOS UI a shell on top of good old regular OS X UI, this way mature computer users can switch and use the iPad like a real device, with a real file system that doesn't delete personal files when one deletes a app.

That's got to be the stupidest thing I've heard coming from Apple in my life!
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post #386 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I think because of Steve's health at the time, it might have been a option to merge Apple with Intel or Google to insure it's survival. It certainly looked like Apple was being groomed.




It's obvious Steve now has some problems on his hands.

Because he didn't include Apps on OS X UI and allowed the two to compliment each other and let that help sell Mac's. Rather he decided to create a whole new iOS UI based upon phone UI and extend that to computers, he now is facing the file management and other problems that have been conquered long ago in OS X UI.

He's reinventing the wheel!

It would have been so much easier to just port the OS X UI to the iPad, but the lure of total freaking control was too much for him. He's got his hardware lock again with the A4 processors, what more does he need?

If he keeps going with this iOS UI, people are going to say "no way" to Apple because they will view Apple as being totally locked out of the rest of the world, out of reality. A "baby's OS" or something.

And quite frankly, a lot of Apple's consumer programs are downright corny and have become increasingly inconsistent. To have both as a iOS UI is intolerable, a Windows machine would a pleasure to use in comparison.

I've watched a few of the iPad videos, and things are hidden behind pages, turning a page there is no icon you just have to "know" what to do.

It's not intuitive at all, but he's reinventing the UI all over again just in order to gain absolute control.

Another issue if the iOS becomes mainstream on all Mac's is it's being so different than Windows that people won't be able to cross over easily.

Mac users will become foreigners speaking another language to the business world, schools and students will drop Mac's because it's too strange and locked into the App Store universe.

I think Steve is off his rocker, if the iPad couldn't handle OS X, he should have just slimmed it down, but kept the UI. Why reinvent the whole dam thing just to make it look corny?

This gibberish about ascribing Apple's software strategies to the character flaws of Jobs is, um, gibberish. The idea that something like a page turn as a UI convention for revealing semi-frequent settings or info text (as opposed to drop down menus or navigating to a settings pane) represents some kind of manifestation of Jobs' desire for "control" makes no sense whatsoever.

Just having an idea (Jobs is a dreadful control freak, Apple has dark aspirations for enslaving its users) and mapping then them onto everything Apple does (Apple releases new software, which is an example of those aspirations) doesn't automatically make an argument. In your case, it starts to sound paranoid and delusional.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #387 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

I think because of Steve's health at the time, it might have been a option to merge Apple with Intel or Google to insure it's survival. It certainly looked like Apple was being groomed.




It's obvious Steve now has some problems on his hands.

Because he didn't include Apps on OS X UI and allowed the two to compliment each other and let that help sell Mac's. Rather he decided to create a whole new iOS UI based upon phone UI and extend that to computers, he now is facing the file management and other problems that have been conquered long ago in OS X UI.

He's reinventing the wheel!

It would have been so much easier to just port the OS X UI to the iPad, but the lure of total freaking control was too much for him. He's got his hardware lock again with the A4 processors, what more does he need?

If he keeps going with this iOS UI, people are going to say "no way" to Apple because they will view Apple as being totally locked out of the rest of the world, out of reality. A "baby's OS" or something.

And quite frankly, a lot of Apple's consumer programs are downright corny and have become increasingly inconsistent. To have both as a iOS UI is intolerable, a Windows machine would a pleasure to use in comparison.

I've watched a few of the iPad videos, and things are hidden behind pages, turning a page there is no icon you just have to "know" what to do.

It's not intuitive at all, but he's reinventing the UI all over again just in order to gain absolute control.

Another issue if the iOS becomes mainstream on all Mac's is it's being so different than Windows that people won't be able to cross over easily.

Mac users will become foreigners speaking another language to the business world, schools and students will drop Mac's because it's too strange and locked into the App Store universe.

I think Steve is off his rocker, if the iPad couldn't handle OS X, he should have just slimmed it down, but kept the UI. Why reinvent the whole dam thing just to make it look corny?

This is going to hurt OS X market share for sure, because now people see there is two different UI's and a whole lot of confusion coming from Apple.

At least with Windows one can use XP, Vista and Win7 all the same way, as things are pretty much the same, not a wild change like between OS X and iOS UI.

I don't agree with what you're saying here, and I'm far from being alone in that. How do you know they're reinventing the wheel? How do you know that this isn't far superior? You're making assumptions that it's worse without knowing much of anything about it.

The post addabox just made shows some of the new things we'll have access to, and that's just a tiny bit of it.

You're boxing yourself in. Try to extend your imagination. Instead of focussing on what you think to be negative aspects, concentrate on the positive ones, and imagine how Apple will be extending it.

Instead, you are pretending to yourself that whatever you think you know, is all that exists, and is all that will ever exist. And you don't even know if what you think you know is correct. That's really a bad attitude to have.

If people just looked at the Altair 8080 when in first came out, and thought, "well, it doesn't do anything useful. I'm not going to ever buy a computer.", then that would have been dumb, I'm sure you'll agree. But hindsight is easy, right?

The concept is to be getting away from OS X's GUI, and for that matter the Windows GUI. Just possibly they aren't needed for most computing. You have to give it a chance. That GUI on all three OS's is one of the major reasons why they are so slow.

Look at the failure of Windows Mobile. It uses the desktop metaphor. What a stupid mistake! it's responsible for much of the slow speed, part of the crashes (which happen a lot), and part of the vulnerability to phone virus's. It's also difficult to use.

You know, there are now about 75 million people with iPhones and Touches who know how to use the GUI. This GUI according to the people at the event who tried it, was instantly usable. Learning how to use the GUI wasn't required because it was so obvious. If there's one thing that a Windows OS GUI isn't, it's obvious. Convoluted is a better term. It's one reason why Windows tablets have been such a failure. Gates had said that by about 2005, most computer users would be using a tablet. Yeah! Great prognosticator he is. There was less than one million Windows tablets sold last year. That's down for the past two years from a high of about 1.5 million.

So going by what you want, Apple should go down the failed road MS has already stumbled on. Windows tablets also require a stylus. Should Apple have required that as well?

You can bet MS is now scrambling to try to duplicate in some way what Apple has done here. But it will take a couple of years at least. Win Mobile isn't even out yet, and MS has had three years to do it.

You really just don't want to like this. You're saying everything that is wrong about what Apple needs to do.
post #388 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It's pretty obvious that it is a computer.

splitting hairs time??

ok you said months ago an iphone was not a computer and should not be counted as a computer when all the number get aded up for market share
i did not and still do not agree

yet when i say its not a computer i mean it in the way that it will not do any thing near what a mini or a MBP can do
that is not its function
IPAD IS A PURE PLAY MEDIA PLAYER
no ??

mel either your correct mow or you was correct months ago
either way many people here are freaking out thinking that this is a mini lap top >> large net book
Which it is not
IT IS A GIANT IPOD TOUCH WITH SOME ADDED FEATURES
as time flows apple will increase its power

in fact i feel it will become a remote TV controller with content that will stream over to your tv

IPAD IS THE NEW ATV

I claim first dibs on this dude
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post #389 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Anything that computes is a computer.

But I think that the word "computer" is becoming obsolete.

When our clothes contain computers, as is being predicted, will they BE computers, or will they just have computing as one of their functions, the other of which will be to clothe us?

My camera has several computers, but it's not a computer.

My Tv runs on Linux, but it's also not a computer. Many audio components have computers, but they are not computers.

I suppose what it's used for gives name to the definition.

What do we think of today when we thing of "computing"? Is it arranging photos? Is it listening to music? Is it writing a letter? If not, then this isn't a computer, though it contains one.

We're abstracting tasks from the device as the device takes on more of the drudge work from us.

I don't consider it to be computing on our part, and so, maybe these are NOT computers per se, though they contain them.

I think that this is what Apple does best, given the possible level of technology at the time.

The original word computer was a job description!

It was actually a term used to describe a person that did calculations.

You can look it up.

So, in my mind, at least SOME computers will never become obsolete!
post #390 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't see where you get the Google/Apple thing. At one time, before Google started copying Apple's product line, it looked as though they might merge. Their products were complimentary. But then Google began to compete with Apple, and now, all bets are off as to what will happen between them.

I could write a REALLY long post on this, but I'm sure you don't want me to. So I'll just write a slightly long one.

My take on where Apple is going now, because of Steve's long term vision, is to extend the iPhone OS. Heh, we had a thread (maybe it was early in this one) in which someone complained about Apple's use of "i" before so many products.

Well, I hate to see this OS referred to as the iPhone OS because the Touch, and especially the iPad are most certainly not phones, though they can make Skype and Vonage VOIP calls.

So, let's call it the iOS for now. It could be a worse name.

Apple is taking the iOS upscale with the iPad. I think it will continue to go further.

You see, he's being cagy here, and is leading developers down a path they don't even know they're taking!

So, the iPhone comes out without programming possible. Use the cloud is the first mantra, with a promise to make everyone happy with development later.

Then comes the SDK, and the app store. So everyone and their sister begins to write programs for these little devices. They become wildly popular, and so do the programs.

So, most every company starts writing programs for them. And I mean everyone. Media companies, industrial companies, software companies, governments, etc. So we've got a whole load of developers here.

But this is for a phone, right? So, well, it's ok then to get programmers to write for it with the different cpu, and different gpu with the limitations all small devices have.

But they're growing software development teams to write for it.

So, almost three years later, Apple announces the iPad. With the same basic OS, but with additional features, a more powerful hardware with a real computer sized screen.

Well now, there are over 140,000 apps that can run on this. but they run better when modded for it. So they start working on it.

But wait, it also can run iWork in modified form, and it's finally got a "real" keyboard, and a good, big virtual one. This is a new opportunity! So, we start to see more software companies hiring more programmers to write more sophisticated software.

Now, normally, companies don't want to change processors they're writing for, because they have to change their codebase over, and gain expertise with it all at once.

But hey, we're writing for phones, of COURSE we've got to work with a different hardware base, and a slightly different OS, which just HAPPENs to be based on full fledged UNIX so it's got far more power than any other phone OS.

Hmm! So now there are at least a couple hundred thousand programmers with experience on this platform.

And the platform expands over the years. Slowly but surely.

Next up, a model with 15" screen at maybe 1600 x 1200, and more powerful processors.

Then before you know it, these companies have almost as many programmers working on the iOS on ARM as they do working on OS X and x86.

But, guess what? The iOS machines are vastly outselling the machines using OS X and x86. Whoops!

As Apple reduces the OS X x86 machines in their line, most work is being done on iOS and ARM.

Guess what Apple is doing to these companies?

And the iOS is now the 2nd most used OS, and rising fast.

Well, where might we be in 2020?

What was that about the OS wars being won?
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post #391 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzExige View Post

It doesn't? - We'll see, but I'll be surprised if Apple aren't looking to 'control' more of the cloud with MobileMe

What is this fixation with the "Apple control" meme? It's almost as bad as the ridiculous "Apple Tax" meme.

Apple doesn't need to "control" to drive people's actions. They make products desirable enough on their own merits that people (gasp!) want to use them.

It's also a far more effective strategy in the long term as well.

Quote:
and add another revenue stream. (God bless them little Apples)

Actually, for what MobileMe provides it's pretty cost effective. I wouldn't be surprised if their profit is pretty minimal with MobileMe - $99 a year providing all of the back-end services they do isn't going to make significant profit - no matter what the volume.

Quote:
How so? - If backups are to be seamless for the new 'appliance' of the decade they'll have to do some very clever manoeuvring around the file systems on MobileMe (so sloooow)

I dunno, I have a local cache of my iDisk - it works as fast as my hard drive (since it is on my hard drive!) and syncs automatically in the background. No speed issue for me and it's great for keeping content in sync across all of my Mac's.

Quote:
and Timemachine to make it semi-invisable to the new (touch)iWorks user.

Again I'm not sure your reference to TimeMachine - the iPhone right now backs up every time you plug it into iTunes (I do wish I could specify more than two backups, but then again TimeMachine allows me to go back and pull older backups if I want). If I can automatically sync content from the iPad to my Mac (I would be shocked if this wasn't an option) then TimeMachine from my desktop machine would protect it just like other content (including my iDisk image).

Theres definitely more to this story - it will be interesting to see all of this when the iPad ships.
post #392 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

splitting hairs time??

ok you said months ago an iphone was not a computer and should not be counted as a computer when all the number get aded up for market share
i did not and still do not agree

yet when i say its not a computer i mean it in the way that it will not do any thing near what a mini or a MBP can do
that is not its function
IPAD IS A PURE PLAY MEDIA PLAYER
no ??

mel either your correct mow or you was correct months ago
either way many people here are freaking out thinking that this is a mini lap top >> large net book
Which it is not
IT IS A GIANT IPOD TOUCH WITH SOME ADDED FEATURES
as time flows apple will increase its power

in fact i feel it will become a remote TV controller with content that will stream over to your tv

IPAD IS THE NEW ATV

I claim first dibs on this dude

I don't remember saying the iPhone wasn't a computer.

But we're splitting hairs. In an earlier post today, I explained my thoughts on this. I don't want to get into semantics.

But ask yourself what you think of if someone asks you what computing is, vs reading e-mail, writing a letter, looking at photos, etc.

We may have to stop thinking about devices such as an iPhone, Touch or iPad as being computers, even though inside they are.

The face they present to use isn't that of a computer, which when we think of one, we think of Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, etc.

This is different enough so that even though it does computing, we aren't doing computing when we're using it.

Get what I mean?
post #393 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katonah View Post

The original word computer was a job description!

It was actually a term used to describe a person that did calculations.

You can look it up.

So, in my mind, at least SOME computers will never become obsolete!

I think we all know that here.

I have some SiFi novels that go back to the 30's and early 40's by E.E. Doc Smith, in which he refers to people as computers. It goes even further back to the 19th century, but then, they were called "calculators" by the companies who used them to calculate new lens designs. It would take months for a bank of 100 calculators (mostly young women) to finish a design.
post #394 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't agree with what you're saying here, and I'm far from being alone in that. How do you know they're reinventing the wheel? How do you know that this isn't far superior? You're making assumptions that it's worse without knowing much of anything about it.....

Apple is shoehorning the iPhone OS UI onto computers and is going to revisit the same problems that the OS X UI were designed to correct.

People's computer needs haven't changed, the iPad UI will see numerous changes, as they try to fix all these new problems they have created. Mark my words.

It's the whole "Coke Classic" mistake repeated for computers.

That's all.
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #395 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Anything that computes is a computer.

But I think that the word "computer" is becoming obsolete.

When our clothes contain computers, as is being predicted, will they BE computers, or will they just have computing as one of their functions, the other of which will be to clothe us?

My camera has several computers, but it's not a computer.

My Tv runs on Linux, but it's also not a computer. Many audio components have computers, but they are not computers.

I suppose what it's used for gives name to the definition.

What do we think of today when we thing of "computing"? Is it arranging photos? Is it listening to music? Is it writing a letter? If not, then this isn't a computer, though it contains one.

We're abstracting tasks from the device as the device takes on more of the drudge work from us.

I don't consider it to be computing on our part, and so, maybe these are NOT computers per se, though they contain them.

I think that this is what Apple does best, given the possible level of technology at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I think we all know that here.

I have some SiFi novels that go back to the 30's and early 40's by E.E. Doc Smith, in which he refers to people as computers. It goes even further back to the 19th century, but then, they were called "calculators" by the companies who used them to calculate new lens designs. It would take months for a bank of 100 calculators (mostly young women) to finish a design.

Yeah, it's incredible. The first calculator - and how we got excited by a simple addition or subtraction. Or the first mainframe computers that took up whole floors in companies buildings..... and to think they had less processing power than an iphone!

And who'da thunk a few decades ago that a 1 1/2 pound gizmo called an iPad could let you read books, watch movies, play video games! It's still amazing all this technology.

Ah, I love reminiscing!
post #396 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I think we all know that here.

I have some SiFi novels that go back to the 30's and early 40's by E.E. Doc Smith, in which he refers to people as computers. It goes even further back to the 19th century, but then, they were called "calculators" by the companies who used them to calculate new lens designs. It would take months for a bank of 100 calculators (mostly young women) to finish a design.

Speaking of which, this:



is a small bit of the "computer" that put a man on the moon. My dad was an aerospace engineer, and NASA basically took over my home town of Huntsville, AL during the run-up to Apollo.

That picture is of the "Huntsville Industrial Building" (the HIC building), a former cotton mill turned into a hive of those guys (of whom my dad was one): white shirts, black ties, crew cuts, slide rules, and drafting tables. The entire building probably could be considered to have had less "processing power" than an iPhone, but that's how they designed and flew those missions, just a lot of guys and a lot of slide rules, doing the math all day every day.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #397 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Apple is shoehorning the iPhone OS UI onto computers and is going to revisit the same problems that the OS X UI were designed to correct.

People's computer needs haven't changed, the iPad UI will see numerous changes, as they try to fix all these new problems they have created. Mark my words.

It's the whole "Coke Classic" mistake repeated for computers.

That's all.

They're not creating problems. they're fixing the ones that already exist.

If you got out more to people who aren't sophisticated users, you would see how they struggle with the conventional models as they've gotten much more complex over the years to "shoehorn" in functions that most people don't need.

It's like what's always said about Word. 80% of the people use 20% of the features. Some say that's 90%.
post #398 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Speaking of which, this:



is a small bit of the "computer" that put a man on the moon. My dad was an aerospace engineer, and NASA basically took over my home town of Huntsville, AL during the run-up to Apollo.

That picture is of the "Huntsville Industrial Building" (the HIC building), a former cotton mill turned into a hive of those guys (of whom my dad was one): white shirts, black ties, crew cuts, slide rules, and drafting tables. The entire building probably could be considered to have had less "processing power" than an iPhone, but that's how they designed and flew those missions, just a lot of guys and a lot of slide rules, doing the math all day every day.

Amazing those things ever worked.

I had an Hp-65 (remember the card reader?) I used to calculate crossovers for my speaker designs. The Gemini crew used it too. When the Soviets made a dock with our spacecraft, they were astounded at it. They had paper scrolls with knobs to read their instructions from.
post #399 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by imacFP View Post

Yes if already does on the iPhone. That's why it is important to sync and backup. I suspect you won't be able to delete iWork etc off your iPad

Since all 3 iWorks have to be purchased separately, just like any other 3rd party app, you will certainly be able to remove them from your iPad if you choose to.
post #400 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Amazing those things ever worked.

I had an Hp-65 (remember the card reader?) I used to calculate crossovers for my speaker designs. The Gemini crew used it too. When the Soviets made a dock with our spacecraft, they were astounded at it. They had paper scrolls with knobs to read their instructions from.

Yeah, the entire Mercury/Gemini/Apollo "we will put a man on the moon by the end of this decade" thing remains an amazing story of technological will power. I always imagine people in the nascent aerospace field listening to Kennedy's speech, getting to the moon mandate part and jumping out of their chairs, yelling "WE'RE GOING TO DO WHAT NOW?? WHEN??!! HOLY GOD WE HAVE TO START NOW!!! NOW!!! NOW!!!!!!"
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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