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Apple reinventing file access, wireless sharing for iPad - Page 11

post #401 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Yeah, the entire Mercury/Gemini/Apollo "we will put a man on the moon by the end of this decade" thing remains an amazing story of technological will power. I always imagine people in the nascent aerospace field listening to Kennedy's speech, getting to the moon mandate part and jumping out of their chairs, yelling "WE'RE GOING TO DO WHAT NOW?? WHEN??!! HOLY GOD WE HAVE TO START NOW!!! NOW!!! NOW!!!!!!"

And it's amazing that the Saturn 5 blueprints were thrown away by the contractor because they needed more room! Without ever asking NASA.
post #402 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And it's amazing that the Saturn 5 blueprints were thrown away by the contractor because they needed more room! Without ever asking NASA.

Rocketdyne claims to have most of it stashed some where, but there was definitely a one-off mentality at work-- the tools and dies all got scrapped.

There is a full Saturn 5 lying in state in Huntsville, now, on it's side in a kind of big outdoor barn thing, at the Space and Rocket center. It's a pretty remarkable sight.
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post #403 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Rocketdyne claims to have most of it stashed some where, but there was definitely a one-off mentality at work-- the tools and dies all got scrapped.

There is a full Saturn 5 lying in state in Huntsville, now, on it's side in a kind of big outdoor barn thing, at the Space and Rocket center. It's a pretty remarkable sight.

I remember the claim, but it's been years since they found out, and still nothing.
post #404 of 508
"Outside of savvy computer users, the idea of opening a file by searching through hierarchical paths in the file system is a bit of a mystery."

A new low in Appleinsider 'journalism' ... You mean a mystery for 5-year-olds?
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post #405 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by nasdarq View Post

"Outside of savvy computer users, the idea of opening a file by searching through hierarchical paths in the file system is a bit of a mystery."

A new low in Appleinsider 'journalism' ... You mean a mystery for 5-year-olds?

You are mistaken.

Speaking as someone who does a lot of tech support for a lot of very intelligent people, lots and lots of folks don't understand file systems at all. IMO it has very little to do with IQ or level of education.

Macs even have highly simplified logical file systems and a lot of idiot proof stuff to keep the complexity out of the way, but I still have to explain on a fairly regular basis "where your file went" to PhD's. Very few users really even understand the concept of the "User" folder hierarchy on the Mac which is as simple as file systems get. They might not admit it to you but it's fairly obvious that this is the case when you support them.

Most of the people I support see the HD on the desktop, understand that as a "file receptacle" of some kind and throw stuff in there willy nilly (absolutely the wrong thing to do on a Mac). Most use the trash as a kind of "pile of forgotten stuff" (secondary receptacle), and most store pretty much every single thing they really want to hang onto, on the desktop itself.

It's getting better now there is a Documents folder and a Downloads folder accessible to the user from the desktop, but the number of folks that immediately changed the downloads back to the desktop upon installing Leopard is quite high also.

The majority of users want all their files in a big pile in front of them, or perhaps organised into folders, (but still in front of them). Digging around in the file system makes them immediately nervous in most cases.
post #406 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

The majority of users want all their files in a big pile in front of them, or perhaps organised into folders, (but still in front of them). Digging around in the file system makes them immediately nervous in most cases.

It's not about a file system making someone nervous, so much as people like things organized their way, and no two people want it exactly the same way. With a Mac you have a lot of options, with the iPad you're rigidly locked into something counter-intuitive for most people (especially the 'files on the desktop' people!)

Also, the reason a lot of people don't understand the "user" system in OS X, is that nesting things so deeply is a dumb way to store things that you use regularly. It's very poorly designed. The folders in the dock in SL mitigates that problem for most, but they're still in trouble if that folder gets removed from the dock. My preferred method is a second hard drive that I can organize folder structure however I want without any "user" or "Library" crap to dig through. With an iPad (and an iPhone for that matter), what I'd much prefer is an SD slot so I can not only store all my working files on a card, but easily move them to any other place I want to use them without having to sync to anything.
post #407 of 508
its all eye candy... drop down to a terminal or ssh into the device and you will still find good old unix file structures. Not that this is a bad thing. It does make it easier to manage your files, no need to worry where everything is. Unless of course you are limited by the associated application on what you can do with the file. For example, say you wanted to copy the file over to your dropbox application so its accessible.... then what. I wonder how they are going to handle printing these documents (without syncing to a host itunes computer)
post #408 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

You are mistaken.

Speaking as someone who does a lot of tech support for a lot of very intelligent people, lots and lots of folks don't understand file systems at all. IMO it has very little to do with IQ or level of education.

Macs even have highly simplified logical file systems and a lot of idiot proof stuff to keep the complexity out of the way, but I still have to explain on a fairly regular basis "where your file went" to PhD's. Very few users really even understand the concept of the "User" folder hierarchy on the Mac which is as simple as file systems get. They might not admit it to you but it's fairly obvious that this is the case when you support them.

Most of the people I support see the HD on the desktop, understand that as a "file receptacle" of some kind and throw stuff in there willy nilly (absolutely the wrong thing to do on a Mac). Most use the trash as a kind of "pile of forgotten stuff" (secondary receptacle), and most store pretty much every single thing they really want to hang onto, on the desktop itself.

It's getting better now there is a Documents folder and a Downloads folder accessible to the user from the desktop, but the number of folks that immediately changed the downloads back to the desktop upon installing Leopard is quite high also.

The majority of users want all their files in a big pile in front of them, or perhaps organised into folders, (but still in front of them). Digging around in the file system makes them immediately nervous in most cases.

Honestly, using a folder structure is no more complex than using a filing cabinet. Frankly, I think you're overplaying the complexity involved here. It's a problem that isn't broken on the desktop. It's a challenge on the ipad where content creation is going to occur because the filesystem is hidden from the user.

I'm sure apple will work it out (agreeing with melgross here). They realised that 9 5x4 grids of apps is information assault and solved it by implementing a search pane.

As it stands though, anything more than a few dozens of docs and flat is going to look painful.
post #409 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Apple is dramatically rethinking how applications organize their documents on iPad, leaving behind the jumbled file system and making file access between the iPad and desktop computers seamless.

In a move foreshadowed by the Newton Message Pad fifteen years ago, Apple's new iPad jettisons the conventional shared file system and introduces a new, streamlined convention for working with document files that ordinary users should find much more understandable.

Outside of savvy computer users, the idea of opening a file by searching through hierarchical paths in the file system is a bit of a mystery. Add in the concept of local and cloud file servers and things really get confusing.

Apple has already taken some steps to hide complexity in the file system in Mac OS X; Spotlight search was supposed to make a file's location almost irrelevant, while apps such as iTunes, iPhoto, and Photo Booth now present their databases of content in media folders within the open file panel rather that forcing users to slog through the underlying file system.

The Finder, iTunes and iPhoto also allow users to wirelessly share content between different systems via Bonjour-discovered file shares that pop up automatically whenever another system sharing files is sensed on the network.

The iPhone similarly abstracts away the file system entirely; there is no concept of opening or saving files, just a media library of Photos and file attachments that stay connected to their mailbox items. But the iPhone currently isn't designed to do much more than view files.

iPad's new document sharing model

With the iPad, Apple demonstrated new multitouch versions of desktop-class iWorks apps with user interfaces that need to open and save documents. There's still no file system browser with open and save panels. Instead, each app displays the files it knows about at launch for the user to navigate through directly.

An iPad developer has revealed to AppleInsider how this new mechanism works, without also requiring that users learn about the complexity of the underlying file system. Rather than iPad apps saving their documents into a wide open file system, apps on iPad save all their documents within their own installation directory. Delete the app and you'll clean out all of its related files. This is how the iPhone OS already works.

Additionally, iPad apps can now specify that their documents be shared wirelessly. With that configuration, the iPad will make available each apps' documents, allowing the user to wirelessly mount their iPad via WiFi and simply drag and drop files back and forth between it and their desktop computer.

On the desktop system, the iPad will show up as a share containing a documents folder for each app that enables sharing. For example, a user with iWork apps will be able to wirelessly connect to their iPad as if it were a directly connected drive, and simply drag spreadsheet, presentation, or word processing files between their local system and the mobile device as desired.

Documents copied to the app's shared folder will be graphically presented by the app when it launches, sparing users from having to figure out where to look for their document files and avoiding any need to sort through different kinds of documents. The document listing also presents each file as a large preview akin to Quick View on the Mac OS X desktop.

And iPad app's documents can be presented in any way that makes sense, depending on how many and what kind of documents the individual iPad app uses. Apple demonstrated its Work apps scrolling through a quick list of documents, while its iBooks app presents its various digital books as titles in a virtual bookshelf.

Just like the iPhone, the iPad will sync some apps' documents via either iTunes or MobileMe, including photos, music, movies, TV shows, contacts, calendars, and bookmarks.


I'm not buying this fluff piece of junk article.

Apple has for a long time been running .Mac or Mobile Me or whatever it is called. My year long experience with .mac sucked (it was overpriced, syncing took forever if it worked at all). And judging by the complaints of recent Mobile Me customers, the experience has not changed.

Don't be swayed by fluff pieces like this. Apple's online "Cloud" or whatever bu!!shi! experience will not differ from years gone by...

Hype. This is nothing but hype...
post #410 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by thartist View Post

This philosophy is flawed in so many ways. Apple is not giving the end user MORE freedom, but less! Filetypes should act independent to programs for one reason only. LICENSING! Let's apply Apple's logic to the way my computer works now. Being a graphic guy, I switch between Photoshop and Fireworks all the time. Why would I want Photoshop to open and save graphic files when both applications treat the same file totally differently! I also script! There are some things Pages sucks at (script writing development). Why would I want to be in Pages only to write my scripts when scriptwriter pro does it much better?

Who says that a document that you wrote in Pages on the iPad (which can read/write Word docs and more, don't forget) *must* be worked on in Pages on your laptop or desktop or PC?

Maybe you should wait to have a stroke until after some more information is available.

Quote:
PDFs is another great example. I want to open PDFs in Acrobat, not PREVIEW!

So how is that going to change from current usage? You set Acrobat to be your default PDF application and you're off. iPad isn't going to change this.

The docs you swap to/from the iPad don't *have* to be limited to the iPad app's equivalent on your computer, no more than you're currently limited.

Quote:
I also want to put files on my thumb drive to send to clients, or upload them to box.net for review. Now what? I have to say to the client, "sorry. That thumbnail I rendered on my iPhone can only be used with this application software of which you have to buy..."

Yea, right.

So who said that was the case? Apps on the iPad expecting documents to be in their respective subdirectories says *nothing* about where you can put/take them on your computer.

Quote:
Why is Apple giving me a reason to move over to the upcoming slate or a netbook running Linux? WHY! What's next Apple? Are you going to tell me that I have to put ice cream in a cone instead of a cup?

Maybe they're not telling you anything; it's just the voices in your head.

(Why is it that the voices never tell you to anything nice?)
post #411 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't remember saying the iPhone wasn't a computer.

But we're splitting hairs. In an earlier post today, I explained my thoughts on this. I don't want to get into semantics.

But ask yourself what you think of if someone asks you what computing is, vs reading e-mail, writing a letter, looking at photos, etc.

We may have to stop thinking about devices such as an iPhone, Touch or iPad as being computers, even though inside they are.

The face they present to use isn't that of a computer, which when we think of one, we think of Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, etc.

This is different enough so that even though it does computing, we aren't doing computing when we're using it.

Get what I mean?

yes i do


months ago i said that if you count NETBOOKS AS a computer to give apple a low 5% market share i said iphones and i touches were also computers and should count in apple market share

i was the told i guess by jeff alone that iphones are not computers
they are
i guess i do agree it you facts as you state them



how did your appointments go ??


peace 9
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post #412 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

It's not about a file system making someone nervous, so much as people like things organized their way, and no two people want it exactly the same way. With a Mac you have a lot of options, with the iPad you're rigidly locked into something counter-intuitive for most people (especially the 'files on the desktop' people!)

Also, the reason a lot of people don't understand the "user" system in OS X, is that nesting things so deeply is a dumb way to store things that you use regularly. It's very poorly designed. The folders in the dock in SL mitigates that problem for most, but they're still in trouble if that folder gets removed from the dock. My preferred method is a second hard drive that I can organize folder structure however I want without any "user" or "Library" crap to dig through. With an iPad (and an iPhone for that matter), what I'd much prefer is an SD slot so I can not only store all my working files on a card, but easily move them to any other place I want to use them without having to sync to anything.

you can tell each file where to go
you can tell each folder where to live
i made an alias of my whole file system and the put the whole thing inside one folder
every single thing i do goes there
even downloads and email notes
why is that so hard \\math is hard
folder is easy

peace

9
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post #413 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

It's not about a file system making someone nervous, so much as people like things organized their way, and no two people want it exactly the same way. With a Mac you have a lot of options, with the iPad you're rigidly locked into something counter-intuitive for most people (especially the 'files on the desktop' people!)

I don't think the idea of people thinking they want things organised "their way" really conflicts with what I said, just that the way most people seem to want to organise is to organise things in piles on the desktop. Also, of course most people understand the concept of folders within folders, but they still mostly like to put those folders al lover their desktop. This is exactly the same as the real world fear of filing in general that most people also seem to have. Highly organised business environments may be an exception here, but everywhere I've ever worked, things get filed in the cabinet when they are no longer needed and all the reports are done. Until that time they are on the (physical) desktop. It's not that people don't understand organisation, just that many if not most, like to have instant access to the stuff they are actually working on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

... Also, the reason a lot of people don't understand the "user" system in OS X, is that nesting things so deeply is a dumb way to store things that you use regularly. It's very poorly designed. ...

Here, you are just completely mistaken. The user folder file system in OS-X is one of the simplest systems there is and it is actually *not* "deeply nested" at all. User folders are top level, and all the main folders are in underneath your user name. You just can't get any simpler than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

... My preferred method is a second hard drive that I can organize folder structure however I want without any "user" or "Library" crap to dig through. With an iPad (and an iPhone for that matter), what I'd much prefer is an SD slot so I can not only store all my working files on a card, but easily move them to any other place I want to use them without having to sync to anything.

Based on my experience, this puts you in a very unique and small-ish category among users, so maybe your experience doesn't really translate to what others do. You not only eschew the organisational structure of the OS, (which of course puts you in the category of those that actually know its there and understand it already), you have your own ideas about organisational structures that you intentionally implement.

IMO this is great, and it's something I do myself to a degree. My point is though that from what I've seen over the years, most folks just aren't like this, and don't do this.

Apple is right. When people are making a document, they just want to see a list of the pictures they can pick to drop into it. When they are making a sideshow, they just want to see a list of music that they can pick for it. People actually seem to like "libraries" of media as presented to them by iPhoto, iMovie, iTunes, etc. The recent removal of the HD from the desktop in OS-X 10.6 has actually been a bit of a boon for me and has lowered the support threshold a bit.

The age has passed when people need to know about the physical devices connected to their "computer system" or know anything about their computer at all. No one cares about storage media and how to manage them anymore, they want a "magic file-cabinet" and Apple is giving them what they want. this is not necessarily a bad thing.
post #414 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

It's not about a file system making someone nervous, so much as people like things organized their way, and no two people want it exactly the same way. With a Mac you have a lot of options, with the iPad you're rigidly locked into something counter-intuitive for most people (especially the 'files on the desktop' people!)

Also, the reason a lot of people don't understand the "user" system in OS X, is that nesting things so deeply is a dumb way to store things that you use regularly. It's very poorly designed. The folders in the dock in SL mitigates that problem for most, but they're still in trouble if that folder gets removed from the dock. My preferred method is a second hard drive that I can organize folder structure however I want without any "user" or "Library" crap to dig through. With an iPad (and an iPhone for that matter), what I'd much prefer is an SD slot so I can not only store all my working files on a card, but easily move them to any other place I want to use them without having to sync to anything.

Considering that you almost never have to go directly into a folder, it's not such a big deal if you know how it works. If you don't, it's another story.

Very few people have a second HDD, even for backups.
post #415 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Honestly, using a folder structure is no more complex than using a filing cabinet. Frankly, I think you're overplaying the complexity involved here. It's a problem that isn't broken on the desktop. It's a challenge on the ipad where content creation is going to occur because the filesystem is hidden from the user.

I'm sure apple will work it out (agreeing with melgross here). They realised that 9 5x4 grids of apps is information assault and solved it by implementing a search pane.

As it stands though, anything more than a few dozens of docs and flat is going to look painful.

Studies and interviews have shown that people leave files on the desktop in both Mac and Windows PCs precisely because they don't want to bother with looking for files in the folder structure. Spotlight was supposed to cure that on the Mac side, but this behavior persists. (Look it up on Google.)

By the way, my Mac desktop is empty (other than the drives), and my Windows desktop has a few application shortcuts on it.
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post #416 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Honestly, using a folder structure is no more complex than using a filing cabinet. Frankly, I think you're overplaying the complexity involved here. It's a problem that isn't broken on the desktop. It's a challenge on the ipad where content creation is going to occur because the filesystem is hidden from the user.

I'm sure apple will work it out (agreeing with melgross here). They realised that 9 5x4 grids of apps is information assault and solved it by implementing a search pane.

As it stands though, anything more than a few dozens of docs and flat is going to look painful.

Yes, the search pane is very good as long as you know part of the name.

Conventional computers are way too complex for the average person, no matter what someone may say.

It's like changing spark plugs in a car. It's really easy, with a couple of tools, if you know what you're doing, and are interested enough to want to do it. But most people wouldn't even know where to look, and that includes most guys nowadays.
post #417 of 508
After reading this thread I have doubts that I'll get my user created app folders on the iPhone OS Home Screens, which would be a shame considering how unorganized pages of apps can get. Maybe they'll at least offer a solution based on app type.
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post #418 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofabutt View Post

I'm not buying this fluff piece of junk article.

Apple has for a long time been running .Mac or Mobile Me or whatever it is called. My year long experience with .mac sucked (it was overpriced, syncing took forever if it worked at all). And judging by the complaints of recent Mobile Me customers, the experience has not changed.

Don't be swayed by fluff pieces like this. Apple's online "Cloud" or whatever bu!!shi! experience will not differ from years gone by...

Hype. This is nothing but hype...

That's likely what some of those server farms are for. Now, Apple relies on two third parties. They obviously feel that if they control it themselves, it will run better.

I'm not an enthusiast of the cloud yet, but at some point it will work really well. Right now, it's just too slow. I've got a 1 Gb/s network at home, and even "n" seems slow when passing large files around. So the typical broadband connection of 3.9 Mb/s is glacial. That's not Apple's fault. It's only about 400 KB/s. That's nothing.
post #419 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

yes i do


months ago i said that if you count NETBOOKS AS a computer to give apple a low 5% market share i said iphones and i touches were also computers and should count in apple market share

i was the told i guess by jeff alone that iphones are not computers
they are
i guess i do agree it you facts as you state them



how did your appointments go ??


peace 9

What I meant was that they use a phone OS, and aren't counted in with desktop and laptops as a computer OS. They're a mobile platform. I didn't mean that they're not computers.

I was going to visit you, but the doctor did some laser surgery when I went in tuesday, so I was back home that day, and only went to the other doctor on Wednesday, then back home again.
post #420 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofabutt View Post

I'm not buying this fluff piece of junk article.

Apple has for a long time been running .Mac or Mobile Me or whatever it is called. My year long experience with .mac sucked (it was overpriced, syncing took forever if it worked at all). And judging by the complaints of recent Mobile Me customers, the experience has not changed.

Don't be swayed by fluff pieces like this. Apple's online "Cloud" or whatever bu!!shi! experience will not differ from years gone by...

Hype. This is nothing but hype...

I'm not here to argue, just to present an alternative point of view. My syncing via mobileme has run flawlessly and push is synced very, very quickly. I don't wonder whether a calendar entry or contact edit on my iPhone will appear on my laptop--or even whether it'll be there quickly. It just is. I sync photos and music when i connect my devices, and i use the "cloud" to sync bookmarks, contacts (700+), calendar entries...not sure whether i'm forgetting anything. From what i read, the iPad'll do all that AND docs (wirelessly? dunno). I'm looking forward to it without doubts or fears, based on my past experience.

From my pov, I think you had an atypical experience.
post #421 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

Is this not possible by only syncing specific Albums back to the Air? I don't have iPhoto or LR in my immediate work flow, so I'm curious for a friend of mine. Anyone?

Unfortunately not.
You can have separate albums - one for when you're on the move, the other back home on your main hard disk. There are apps for managing/moving photos between libraries but not seamless.

It would be brilliant to have a master library with ALL your photos - either stored on an external disk at home, or on your other home/work Mac - and select a subset to sync to the smaller Mac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple clearly wants this to be an accessory device but they included some HW and OS features in clearly prevent that from being the absolute case so I hope they do allow this to be wirelessly backed up.

Do we know that their iPad photo app actually allows any manipulation of photos? Like crop, rotate, change brightness, create album, name faces?

If so (that's great.. and) it would be important to only have a subset of photos. I can see having the last 3 months automatically on my iPad, plus selected events or albums as per the iPhone/AppleTV. The ability to look at them, delete some, fix some would be great... then have the smaller subset sync back up to the master library COMPLETE WITH CHANGES.

I know it's not a simple need, but it is an incredibly useful one...
post #422 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

Do we know that their iPad photo app actually allows any manipulation of photos? Like crop, rotate, change brightness, create album, name faces?

If so (that's great.. and) it would be important to only have a subset of photos. I can see having the last 3 months automatically on my iPad, plus selected events or albums as per the iPhone/AppleTV. The ability to look at them, delete some, fix some would be great... then have the smaller subset sync back up to the master library COMPLETE WITH CHANGES.

I know it's not a simple need, but it is an incredibly useful one...

They do offer an Pad Camera Connection Kit for the device. Of course, that means nothing and I can see no editing in Photos or iPod. Note they don't call it iPhoto or iTunes.

They may allow the manipulation but only through a 3rd-party apps. Or they may add it later once the device gets more established. Isn't this the first non-Mac with Apple-created apps for robust document creation and editing as an option?
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post #423 of 508
Perfect!! Now Mrs Underhill will have to let me keep my Mac Book Pro.

Once her Majesty see's how iPad and MBP work in harmony she'll forgive me and spare me my head.
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post #424 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

They do offer an Pad Camera Connection Kit for the device. Of course, that means nothing and I can see no editing in Photos or iPod. Note they don't call it iPhoto or iTunes.

I saw that too.
But yes it could just import the photos into an "import roll" icon, where the iPhone has the "camera roll" folder.
post #425 of 508
Just wondering : sometimes I need my computer with me but don't want to have the hassle of lugging a 6 pounds computer with powerplug and so on.
If I need to work on text files and pictures on the move, is the iPad a nice lightweight solution for this ?
post #426 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

You are mistaken.

Speaking as someone who does a lot of tech support for a lot of very intelligent people, lots and lots of folks don't understand file systems at all. IMO it has very little to do with IQ or level of education.

Macs even have highly simplified logical file systems and a lot of idiot proof stuff to keep the complexity out of the way, but I still have to explain on a fairly regular basis "where your file went" to PhD's. Very few users really even understand the concept of the "User" folder hierarchy on the Mac which is as simple as file systems get. They might not admit it to you but it's fairly obvious that this is the case when you support them.

Most of the people I support see the HD on the desktop, understand that as a "file receptacle" of some kind and throw stuff in there willy nilly (absolutely the wrong thing to do on a Mac). Most use the trash as a kind of "pile of forgotten stuff" (secondary receptacle), and most store pretty much every single thing they really want to hang onto, on the desktop itself.

It's getting better now there is a Documents folder and a Downloads folder accessible to the user from the desktop, but the number of folks that immediately changed the downloads back to the desktop upon installing Leopard is quite high also.

The majority of users want all their files in a big pile in front of them, or perhaps organised into folders, (but still in front of them). Digging around in the file system makes them immediately nervous in most cases.

Even though you're definitely downplaying a typical PHD's (unless he or she is, like my mother, a PHD in philology ...) capacity to remember a few logical steps to find a file on his/her computer, your examples only attest an old truth that, in most cases, human stupidity has no boundaries. Do you think Apple are going to change that by getting rid of the hierarchical file system?

By the way, the ability to save one's hundreds of files on his dektop - just because one prefers that kind of (a visible) mess - is also one of the advantages given by a hierarchical file system ...
The great things for the great, the abysses for the profound, the thrills for the refined, and, to sum up shortly, everything rare for the rare.
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The great things for the great, the abysses for the profound, the thrills for the refined, and, to sum up shortly, everything rare for the rare.
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post #427 of 508
...this is how I organized my files in the dark ages of MS-DOS, like early to mid 80s: a doc folder in each application's installation folder, simply because there was no such thing as a decent file open panel or Finder, and otherwise opening files would have required a lot of painful file system navigation.

With the advent of GUIs I was able to finally leave this brain-dead application based working style behind, and focus on the DATA, the PROJECTS, etc.
I don't work with applications, I work on PROJECTS and their DOCUMENTS. I then open a document, which as a SIDE EFFECT launches an application. Applications should disappear rather than becoming the center piece of a user's interaction with a computing device.

Further, documents should have an open format, and hence it should be possible to work on them with multiple applications. Grouping documents with a specific application is a huge step backwards.

Lastly, scrolling through documents DOES NOT SCALE. Have a few hundred Pages documents, and it'll become a PITA to find the proper one. After all, these are not photos, which are usually taken a few at a time, and which are easily recognized by a few, prominent features. These are text documents, that more or less all look the same. If they are strewn all into once place without decent categorization and organization, the mess is perfect in no time.

The more I look at the iPad, the more it reminds me of a modern edition of the original Mac, single-tasking, single-app paradigm, closed proprietary architecture etc. all included.

Maybe Jobs has to get fired, found a new NeXT and be forced to listen to customers again, until he creates an open version of the iPad, just like NeXT was an open version of the Mac.
Why is it, that excessive greed and lust for power always finds its way back into corporate leadership, even when you thought a company might have learned a few lessons from their recent past.

Or look at DRM. One might have thought the debate with DRM in iTunes music might have led somewhere, but no, DRM with iBooks and of course the AppStore apps is alive and kicking. Does Apple try to say it's OK to steal music, but not OK to steal books and apps?
Or alternatively, if the threat of music theft, compared to the advertising effect stolen songs have, is small enough to do away with DRM, then why does the same not hold true for books, apps, etc.?

Pretty pathetic.
post #428 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Speaking as someone who does a lot of tech support for a lot of very intelligent people, lots and lots of folks don't understand file systems at all. IMO it has very little to do with IQ or level of education.

Grace us with something spectacular. What does it have to do with?

It does not require a genius to figure out a file system given the usual analogies as a reference ie: HD = filing cabin, each draw representing a partition of the HD and the folders containing documents.
post #429 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

What I meant was that they use a phone OS, and aren't counted in with desktop and laptops as a computer OS. They're a mobile platform. I didn't mean that they're not computers.

I was going to visit you, but the doctor did some laser surgery when I went in tuesday, so I was back home that day, and only went to the other doctor on Wednesday, then back home again.

no rush to visit
i have my own doc stuff
just get well soon
the spring will be here soon enough

BACK TO TOPIC

AFTER reading such high passion fro months now about this glass PAD


i feel apple will step back and allow the public to decide where to go from here

over time it will morph from a media console
to a media controller
maybe 3 or 4 future models in 2 form factors
for starters apple bestowed upon our greedy little hands a fantastic futuristic gaming machine
a new way to play and view games
add all the cool media slots like great movie play back and ipod stuff > email to loved ones including photo's pod casts
anyway you get my drift for all the luddite complaints
the world never knew it needed this
but it does
worldwide commuters having a boring 2 to 3 hr daily commutes can game movie mail photo music podcast learn on and on . nothing sticks out nothing to plug in
QUOTE ME ON THIS in 18 months from right now there will be a standard 6 week wait and sales will hit over 12 million to 15 million
apple tries to slow sales by charging high numbers to no no avail

a world wide cash only black market springs up over night starting 3 days ago

many many people will also opt out of high broadband costs and start a new path that is wireless mobile and less cost than now
for 30 bucks a month plus a 12 dollar net flix sub you can leave reg tv viewing and take all your own media and watch or listen to free pod cast or internet cnn video or net flix starz channels
on and on . in any what ever your situation you as of 3 months from now or not tied to your couch any more

the doctor lawyer and indian chief model will come out next year

little by little apple approved parts join up as one and leave the rest behind
apple makes the hard ware software and has the app makers very happy
adobe msft nokia google are all fading away
soon even ATT WILL BE off our radar
the closed circle tightens as all apple faithful reap the benefits of the best of the future while all our costs going down

the final piece's of APPLES world domination will be the world wide debut of the nano phone
and apple as a MVDO GATEKEEPER


GOOD MORNING TO ALL ON A COLD BRIGHT SUNNY NYC WINTER MORN
this rant was by lostplay

peace 9
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post #430 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by stumbleone;

This mangles the concept of projects. When Im doing video work Ill have files from a variety of applications collocated in a centralized directory: DV/AVCHD/mov video; FCE/FCP sequences; jpg/TIF/PSD images; PDF; AIFF/MP3 audio; etc.

Now I realize that the iPad does not currently support video creation at all. But other kinds of projects can also require files from various apps.

I dont see how the app=file type library or file system can make this work. So is the iPad truly not to be compatible with or usable for content creation, and is just to be a viewer? Maybe so. Have to think about that.

Consider this is the beginning of what is likely to change a lot over time. iPad Evolution Will Have To Let Multiple File Types Share Common Space. Video content creation will surely be a high priority. I've got a hunch the Final Cut group is working on an iPad version of FCP for future release next year.

Six x 3.5GHz '14 MP, 64GB, 1TB PCIe, 16TB HDs
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EyeTV 500, Hybrid 2G, EyeTV 3 HDTV Recorder
64 ATT iPhone 5S, 128 ATT iPad Air, 128 ATT iPad miniRetina, 16...

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Six x 3.5GHz '14 MP, 64GB, 1TB PCIe, 16TB HDs
2.6GHz 6GB 17"HD LED MBP, Sony 52XBR6 HDTV
EyeTV 500, Hybrid 2G, EyeTV 3 HDTV Recorder
64 ATT iPhone 5S, 128 ATT iPad Air, 128 ATT iPad miniRetina, 16...

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post #431 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katonah View Post

Yeah, it's incredible. The first calculator - and how we got excited by a simple addition or subtraction. Or the first mainframe computers that took up whole floors in companies buildings..... and to think they had less processing power than an iphone!

And who'da thunk a few decades ago that a 1 1/2 pound gizmo called an iPad could let you read books, watch movies, play video games! It's still amazing all this technology.

And even more remarkably, in our (as in some of the old farts here) lifetime!

Can you imagine where it all will be 25-40 years from now, i.e., when some of the whippersnappers here are grown up! One thing's for sure: they'll be the new melgross!
post #432 of 508
ugh.... Apple really blew it on one thing for the iPad. No USB is nearly unforgivable. I should not need to have another computer to get my files.

AppleInsider is pandering to Apple here. Having the iPad be more like the iPhone and less like OS X here is a big low point for usability.

I should be able to load any file I want off of USB, Mobile Me, and or LAN file shares via Wifi, but USB is the most important by far.

Even with an Apple mindeset on this, they did announce a USB adapter for digital cameras didn't they? Will that be usable as a general purpose USB storage adapter? That would be great.
post #433 of 508
One of the most insightful posts of all time. I am pasting it in its entirety so that it gets read again.

The points you make seem so obvious after reading it, and it is amazing to me how everyone in the media seem to have totally missed the obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't see where you get the Google/Apple thing. At one time, before Google started copying Apple's product line, it looked as though they might merge. Their products were complimentary. But then Google began to compete with Apple, and now, all bets are off as to what will happen between them.

I could write a REALLY long post on this, but I'm sure you don't want me to. So I'll just write a slightly long one.

My take on where Apple is going now, because of Steve's long term vision, is to extend the iPhone OS. Heh, we had a thread (maybe it was early in this one) in which someone complained about Apple's use of "i" before so many products.

Well, I hate to see this OS referred to as the iPhone OS because the Touch, and especially the iPad are most certainly not phones, though they can make Skype and Vonage VOIP calls.

So, let's call it the iOS for now. It could be a worse name.

Apple is taking the iOS upscale with the iPad. I think it will continue to go further.

You see, he's being cagy here, and is leading developers down a path they don't even know they're taking!

So, the iPhone comes out without programming possible. Use the cloud is the first mantra, with a promise to make everyone happy with development later.

Then comes the SDK, and the app store. So everyone and their sister begins to write programs for these little devices. They become wildly popular, and so do the programs.

So, most every company starts writing programs for them. And I mean everyone. Media companies, industrial companies, software companies, governments, etc. So we've got a whole load of developers here.

But this is for a phone, right? So, well, it's ok then to get programmers to write for it with the different cpu, and different gpu with the limitations all small devices have.

But they're growing software development teams to write for it.

So, almost three years later, Apple announces the iPad. With the same basic OS, but with additional features, a more powerful hardware with a real computer sized screen.

Well now, there are over 140,000 apps that can run on this. but they run better when modded for it. So they start working on it.

But wait, it also can run iWork in modified form, and it's finally got a "real" keyboard, and a good, big virtual one. This is a new opportunity! So, we start to see more software companies hiring more programmers to write more sophisticated software.

Now, normally, companies don't want to change processors they're writing for, because they have to change their codebase over, and gain expertise with it all at once.

But hey, we're writing for phones, of COURSE we've got to work with a different hardware base, and a slightly different OS, which just HAPPENs to be based on full fledged UNIX so it's got far more power than any other phone OS.

Hmm! So now there are at least a couple hundred thousand programmers with experience on this platform.

And the platform expands over the years. Slowly but surely.

Next up, a model with 15" screen at maybe 1600 x 1200, and more powerful processors.

Then before you know it, these companies have almost as many programmers working on the iOS on ARM as they do working on OS X and x86.

But, guess what? The iOS machines are vastly outselling the machines using OS X and x86. Whoops!

As Apple reduces the OS X x86 machines in their line, most work is being done on iOS and ARM.

Guess what Apple is doing to these companies?

And the iOS is now the 2nd most used OS, and rising fast.

Well, where might we be in 2020?

What was that about the OS wars being won?
post #434 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Did you miss this part ?

Instead, each app displays the files it knows about at launch for the user to navigate through directly.

How is that lock-in? If I open an app it sees all filetypes it can handle. This article says nothing about sandboxing documents to a single app.

If the files are kept in the same folder as the originating app, then that file is deleted when the app is deleted. Unless this file is moved to a new folder when the 'owning' app changes, this file is locked into the same fate as it's originating app.
post #435 of 508
Well. Not sure how vinea feels about it, but IMO, this Prince's piece (if backed up by serious facts) is by far the most informative and explanatory one, having been published since we'd heard first time about iPad.
As for bringing file sharing back to iPhone, it's not a must. iPhone was designed and build as essentially consuming device. Almost nothing is supposed to be produced on iPhone and then shared.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #436 of 508
This is nice and all, but for regular use (designing apps, websites, etc) you need a folder structure to organise your files.
post #437 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

...Do we know that their iPad photo app actually allows any manipulation of photos? Like crop, rotate, change brightness, create album, name faces?.

I'd imagine so: I already have several apps that do that on my iPhone.

Your other thoughts, about how a master iPhoto library might be managed with a smaller-capacity device like iPad, are spot on.
post #438 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

One of the most insightful posts of all time. I am pasting it in its entirety so that it gets read again.

The points you make seem so obvious after reading it, and it is amazing to me how everyone in the media seem to have totally missed the obvious.

agreed
the part about mobile os taking over sent chills down my back

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post #439 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by huntercr View Post

ugh.... Apple really blew it on one thing for the iPad. No USB is nearly unforgivable. I should not need to have another computer to get my files.
[...]
Even with an Apple mindeset on this, they did announce a USB adapter for digital cameras didn't they? Will that be usable as a general purpose USB storage adapter? That would be great.

That second paragraph's curiousness negates the first's paragraph's accusation.

What we do know is that even without buying the iWork apps for content editing these files can be sent via email at the very least. And there is word of a locally accessed file system. This makes me lean heavily toward he USB-A and SD card adapters to allow non-images to be copied and read.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #440 of 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Targon View Post

Grace us with something spectacular. What does it have to do with?

It does not require a genius to figure out a file system given the usual analogies as a reference ie: HD = filing cabin, each draw representing a partition of the HD and the folders containing documents.

Use your head then, instead of just being snarky.

- The fact that I said it doesn't correlate with IQ doesn't imply that I can conceptualise in one word or statement what it *does* correlate to.

- The fact that it "doesn't take a genius" to understand the metaphor when it's explained to you (which I also stated), actually kind of props up my argument that it has nothing to do with IQ.

It probably has to do with how one conceptualises their work, work-flow, work habits, and (I would suspect), left-brain vs. right-brain types.

Look at it this way. A coding system or computer language is usually a highly logical and ordered affair. Today's crappy education systems aside, there is no reason why even a reasonably smart person shouldn't be able to quickly understand said system and write code for it easily. In reality, there are many people with rather high IQ's that can't code worth a damn and whose eyes kind of glaze over when faced with such a challenge. They aren't stupid, they just aren't coders. They don't "work that way."

The ability to understand visual and conceptual abstractions is one off the things that separates apes and humans from the rest of the animal world, so maybe it has to do with too much switching between too many different types of abstraction or too high a level of abstraction or something.

I don't really know the cause, (I never claimed I did), I just know what I've seen in my years of working with people and computers. Lots of smart people don't file their documents and eschew the use of any significant organisational strategy. It's a fact jack.
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