iPad debut ignites price war between Amazon and publisher Macmillan - Page 3

Originally Posted by Macadamias

The marginal cost of an eBook approaches zero only when the quantity sold is high enough.

Originally Posted by Macadamias

The cost to make an eBook "edition" is separate from the costs for a physical copy.

Originally Posted by iGenius

Since when do material costs determine market price? I was under the impression that supply and demand set market prices.

Originally Posted by Macadamias

And publishing is just what Amazon wishes to do. To get their new terms of only 30% cut going to Amazon, they get a license to publish for the Kindle platform along with other stipulations in their favor. I believe that is also a major sticking point with the traditional publishers.

And I doubt that Amazon will be offering any of the usual help to authors that publishers give. Some artists may not need any guidance and help producing their work, but even big names in every field find great value that type of relationship.

Originally Posted by benice

What a disgrace. Apple are saying publishers should be able to set their own prices (OK, good), but then saying they expect prices to be around a certain price (to drive a revenue base).

As someone else said, it smacks of price-fixing. It's also hypocritical.

With these kind of turf wars and a series of mixed messages coming out (especially from the intermediary's who are starting to sound like old fashioned monopolists) it's easily enough for consumers to lose confidence in the e-book model at all.

Way to go guys. Remember the old MP3/DRM fights you had back then amongst yourselves and between your customers, well this is the same old crap served on us consumers that you expect us to accept again. Good luck with that.

Originally Posted by nvidia2008

Really? So are they making a profit on the softcovers? What's happening with Amazon?

Originally Posted by iGenius

So you are happy that the prices are higher?

Originally Posted by bodypainter

and once again we see how it's not about the customer, but about making money out of the customer. a digitally distributed book does not have a cover, no printing costs, no distribution with a truck and a person that hands over the book to you, types in the price and gives you change for your money and still it costs the same? that is not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by iGenius

Since when do material costs determine market price? I was under the impression that supply and demand set market prices.

Originally Posted by Macadamias

The marginal cost of an eBook approaches zero only when the quantity sold is high enough.

The cost to make an eBook "edition" is separate from the costs for a physical copy. So they aren't trying to subsidize the physical books. If anything, they would have to subsidize the eBooks because they aren't making enough money on them yet for the cost of making an electronic edition.

Originally Posted by jragosta

That was exactly my point. Everyone is whining that eBooks cost less to produce than paper books so their price should be lower. My comment was that if you expand that to art, that my paintings should be worth more than Picasso's or Monet's as long as I use more paint and canvas than they do.

Markets set prices and cost of production is irrelevant (other than the obvious fact that if the cost of production is greater than the market will accept as a selling price that the product will fail.

Originally Posted by brucep

YOUR SARCASM RADAR WAS DOWN

i work with book companies for 3o yrs
i understand very few books ever turn a profit


i understand there idiots
every single one of them

BUT many many books that are already out there need only to be priced at $7.99 and sell in the hundreds of thousands
and every one gets rich if you have 600 great titles

pure fcuking greed and stupidity keeps the book price so high on the internet

APPLE AFTER 18 MONTHS WILL REDUCE ALL PRICES BY 40 PERCENT
AMD REDUCE BY 60 PERCENT IF YOU BUY 5 BOOKS AT A SHOT

the people I know
have stated THAT FOR A FACT

<<<<authors will now write direct to apple >>>


PEACE

bruce p

9

L

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Stop working yourself up into a lather by having a conversation with yourself (glad to see that you're finally posting beyond your obligatory three words).

And, get real. You're not the only one that 'multitasks.'

And, while you're at it: (i) Grow up; (ii) Get a life.

Originally Posted by iGenius

Agree. But that is not what is meant by the term marginal cost.

Originally Posted by melgross

It never approaches zero, because, at the very least, the author must be paid, and then there is the cut to Apple or others, which is needed to pay for the costs of developing and running the store, which includes the credit card fees, taxes etc.

So to a great extent, even if an author has the rights, how much that author want to get paid for each copy sold becomes a large, or the largest part of the selling price. If they don't have the rights, then the costs are higher.

Originally Posted by melgross

Your sarcasm was well buried, I'll give you that.

Publishers simply want to do in the e-book store what they do in the bookstores. That is to attempt to make their money up front so they lose the least amount possible on the average book, while being able to continue to sell then at lower pricing as time goes on.

As the physical costs of a book are only about 25% of the price, eliminating that cost doesn't drop the cost down to zero just because it's electronic. I've made more than a few posts here about that.

At some point, the publishers costs have been returned, and they've made a profit, they hope. After that, the cost is dropped on the next less expensive printing format. Trade copy, then pocket novel.
If not enough books are sold in hardcover, then they never make it to the next lower lever, and end up on the remainder tables.

By pricing e-books at about the price minus printing costs, plus profit, it seems fair to me. It will help the publisher break even faster, and hopefully, the author will be able to make more money on a longer run, as the e-book can stay in the store forever.

Originally Posted by melgross


/snipped/

Right now, books in the app store can be used on your iPhone/Touch. Will that be the case her, just adding the iPad to that, or will we have the iTunes model, which is 5 computers and unlimited iPhone/Touches? If it's the latter, it's pretty good.

Originally Posted by brucep

$6,99 BEST SELLERS from top writers will be here soon sold direct to you from them .

Originally Posted by brucep

YES YES
except when you compare two massive total amounts
the numbers get scary ..also before i start to compare i will also say some authors will sell direct to apple and some may even not end up in paper at all .

OKok hereis why i agree with up to this point ,,

If i can sell 20 million books . and i am given a choice to sell
ebook style or
trad style

Well 20 million books is a lot of trees axes gas lumber companies tv shows about lumber companies
paper mills rivers re cycled paper ink colors inks drafting tables
Thousands of workers
All of them eating food
Each stop along the line we ship stuff here and there
Book stores with all theiR over head cost and all that taxes on all the steps too
On and on to make 20 million lovely books !!

or 20 million cool dude's DOWN LOAD the same amount saving mother earth all that waste
and we can now MINUS THE COST OF ALL THE 20 million books when we make the totals .

SIMPLE MATH MY DEAR FRIEND

at some point the ebook style cost level out and will only slowly rise

paper book have a heavy load to carry with built in costs that only go up and =never go down ,

so if MacMillion in 6 yrs sells 200 million books >> split in half between paper and ebook
THE EBOOKS OVER ALL GROSS COST WILL BE FAR LOWER ,


$6,99 BEST SELLERS from top writers will be here soon sold direct to you from them .



peace

9

Originally Posted by melgross

Bruce, I understand your point. But, and this is the most important part, most authors never sell more than a couple thousand books. A very large number never sell more than a few hundred, that is, of any one title.

James Patterson is the only worldwide author who sells 20 million books in a year, because he writes with other authors, and has 9 titles a year. For everyone else, even a million is tough to sell.

If publishers and authors hold their e-books back until well after hardcover sales are finished, in other words, sometime during the trade paperback sales (if any), then, maybe, maybe, significantly lower prices are warranted.

But when they sell them at the same time, the pricing must be different, because both hardcover editions and e-book editions are competing to pay for the authors advance, and all of the publishing costs. If the e-book costs are so much lower, then those costs will never be realized, as too many e-books will be sold vs the hardcover, to pay for them.

It's real economics here, not just the wishes of people who only care about cheaper book pricing.

The e-book price must cover all the costs minus the printing and associated costs, which is about 25% of the sales price. so initial e-book pricing, when they come out at the same time as the hardcover, should be about 25% less.

Once those costs are brought back, and the book is in paperback, the costs can be dropped significantly. But there are still costs to be realized even then. Pricing must be realistic so that everyone can continue profiting on it, or otherwise there is no reason to publish it.

Everything isn't peace and love, Bruce, people have to be able to earn a proper living from their work.

Originally Posted by brucep

DAMN SAM

i agree with you
yes yes yes i do !!!

and of course by now you all know i am a dreamer

i am only extending down the road what VIRTUAL PUBLISHING has already started
the book market place is a old school fragmented over priced wasteful disgrace

i own thousands of books
i love books

Apple has thrown down a gauntlet and then it has AS always stepped back . TO watch and to learn .

I say thousand's of jobs in the book industry will disappear forever
10 ten times more jobs will be invented
i say costs will be cut to the bone
i say paper books will sell even more than before
E books will only increase over all reading
e books can open up small run book pressings to a world wide market making

an obscure 12 yr old indian child can write a short series of heart wrenching poems >>20 million can be DL in hours and sell for .25 cts each by passing all gate keepers
<this model can be applied to any true great content writers >>

whole living forest will be saved by apple kindle and the coming cheap book reader revolution

the complete works of Shakespear will be available ON a or iIN a LEATHERr bound book reader / with back up BR dvd with added video and multi media extra's about the BARD .
<<this model can be applied to any book series >>

ebooks will force less waste
ebooks will have titles that stay in the clouds for ever trapped in cyper hell.
the strained human condition will over come many hardships by pouring out their hears thru the written word

sci fi writers like Heinlein and the rest of the golden age guys will be afforded paper back sized ebook readers with futuristic ever changing covers that reflect the current title of mood or whatever the reader wants
all the great sci fi short stories from pulp mags and short novella's short novels to complete series

below is Heinlein
or Rocket Ship Galileo, 1947 *
Beyond This Horizon, 1948 (initially serialized in 1942, and at that time credited to Anson MacDonald)
Space Cadet, 1948 *
Red Planet, 1949 *
Sixth Column, 1949 (initially serialized in 1941, and at that time credited to Anson MacDonald) (aka: The Day After Tomorrow)
Farmer in the Sky, 1950 (Retro Hugo Award, 1951) *
Between Planets, 1951 *
The Puppet Masters, 1951 (re-published posthumously with excisions restored, 1990)
The Rolling Stones, 1952 (aka: Space Family Stone) *
Starman Jones, 1953 *
The Star Beast, 1954 *
Tunnel in the Sky, 1955 *
Double Star, 1956 -- Hugo Award, 1956 [2]
Time for the Stars, 1956 *
Citizen of the Galaxy, 1957 *
The Door into Summer, 1957
Have Space SuitWill Travel, 1958Hugo Award nominee, 1959 [3] *
Methuselah's Children, 1958 (originally a serialized short story in 1941)
Starship Troopers, 1959 -- Hugo Award, 1960 [4]
[edit]Middle Heinlein novels
Stranger in a Strange Land, 1961 -- Hugo Award, 1962 [5], (republished at the original greater length in 1991)
Podkayne of Mars, 1963 *
Orphans of the Sky, 1963 (fix-up novel of two connected short stories, both originally published in 1941)
Glory Road, 1963Hugo Award nominee, 1964 [6]
Farnham's Freehold, 1965
The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, 1966 -- Hugo Award, 1967 [7]
I Will Fear No Evil, 1970
Time Enough for Love, 1973Nebula Award nominated, 1973 [8]; Hugo and Locus SF Awards nominated, 1974 [9]
[edit]Late Heinlein novels
The Number of the Beast, 1980
Friday, 1982Hugo, Nebula, and Locus SF Awards nominee, 1983 [10]
Job: A Comedy of Justice, 1984 - Nebula Award nominee, 1984 [11]; Locus Fantasy Award winner, Hugo Award nominee, 1985 [12]
The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, 1985
To Sail Beyond the Sunset, 1987
[edit]Early Heinlein works published posthumously


[ ]"Future History" short fiction
"Life-Line", 1939
"Let There Be Light", 1940
"And He Built a Crooked House", 1940
"Misfit", 1939
"The Roads Must Roll", 1940
"Requiem", 1940
""If This Goes On"", 1940
"Coventry", 1940
"Blowups Happen", 1940
"Universe", 1941
""We Also Walk Dogs"" 1941 (as Anson MacDonald)
"Common Sense", 1941
"Methuselah's Children", 1941 (lengthened and published as a novel, 1958)
"Logic of Empire", 1941
"Space Jockey", 1947
"It's Great to Be Back!", 1947
"The Green Hills of Earth", 1947
"Ordeal in Space", 1948
"The Long Watch", 1948
"Gentlemen, Be Seated!", 1948
"The Black Pits of Luna", 1948
"Delilah and the Space Rigger", 1949
"The Man Who Sold the Moon", 1951, (Retro Hugo Award)
"The Menace From Earth", 1957
"Searchlight", 1962
[edit]Other short speculative fiction
Note that all the works initially attributed to Anson MacDonald, Caleb Saunders, John Riverside and Simon York, and many of the works attributed to Lyle Monroe, were later reissued in various Heinlein collections and attributed to Heinlein.

At Heinlein's insistence, the three Lyle Monroe stories marked with the symbol '§' were never reissued in a Heinlein anthology during his lifetime.

"Magic, Inc.", 1940 (aka: "The Devil Makes the Law")
"Solution Unsatisfactory", 1940 (as Anson MacDonald)
"Let There Be Light", 1940 (as Lyle Monroe)
"Successful Operation" 1940 (aka: "Heil!") (as Lyle Monroe)
"They", 1941
""And He Built a Crooked House"", 1941
"By His Bootstraps", 1941 (as Anson MacDonald)
"Lost Legacy", 1941 (aka: "Lost Legion") (as Lyle Monroe)
"Elsewhen", 1941 (aka: "Elsewhere") (as Caleb Saunders)
§ "Beyond Doubt", 1941 (as Lyle Monroe with Elma Wentz)
"The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag", 1942 (as John Riverside)
"Waldo", 1942 (as Anson MacDonald)
§ ""My Object All Sublime"", 1942 (as Lyle Monroe)
"Goldfish Bowl", 1942 (as Anson MacDonald)
§ "Pied Piper", 1942 (as Lyle Monroe)
"Free Men", 1946 (published 1966)
"Jerry Was a Man", 1947
"Columbus Was a Dope", 1947 (as Lyle Monroe)
"On the Slopes of Vesuvius", 1947
"Our Fair City", 1948
"Gulf", 1949
"Nothing Ever Happens on the Moon", 1949
"Destination Moon", 1950
"The Year of the Jackpot", 1952
"Project Nightmare", 1953
"Sky Lift", 1953
"Tenderfoot in Space", 1956 (serialized 1958)
"The Man Who Traveled in Elephants", 1957 (aka: "The Elephant Circuit")
"All You Zombies", 1959
[edit]Other short fiction
"A Bathroom of Her Own", 1946
"Dance Session", 1946 (love poem)
"The Witch's Daughters", 1946 (poem)
"Water Is for Washing", 1947
"They Do It with Mirrors", 1947 (as Simon York)
"Poor Daddy", 1949
"Cliff and the Calories", 1950
"The Bulletin Board", 1951
[edit]Collections
The Man Who Sold the Moon, 1950
Waldo & Magic, Inc., 1950
The Green Hills of Earth, 1951
Assignment in Eternity, 1953
Revolt in 2100, 1953
The Robert Heinlein Omnibus, 1958
The Menace From Earth, 1959
The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag, 1959 (aka: 6 X H)
Three by Heinlein, 1965
A Robert Heinlein Omnibus, 1966
The Worlds of Robert A. Heinlein, 1966
The Past Through Tomorrow, 1967 (almost-complete Future History collection, missing "Let There Be Light" and Orphans of the Sky).
The Best of Robert A. Heinlein, 1973
Expanded Universe, 1980
A Heinlein Trio, 1980 (omnibus of The Puppet Masters, Double Star, and The Door Into Summer)
The Fantasies of Robert A. Heinlein, 1999 (omnibus of Waldo & Magic, Inc. and The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag)
Infinite Possibilities, 2003 (omnibus of Tunnel in the Sky, Time for the Stars, and Citizen of the Galaxy)
To the Stars, 2004 (omnibus of Between Planets, The Rolling Stones, Starman Jones, and The Star Beast)
Off the Main Sequence, 2005 (short stories including three never before collected)
Four Frontiers, 2005 (omnibus of Rocket Ship Galileo, Space Cadet, Red Planet, and Farmer in the Sky)
Outward Bound, 2006 (omnibus of Have Space SuitWill Travel, Starship Troopers, Podkayne of Ma


WOW
have read ever title at least 4 times
at least

now for a flat fee and a monthly charge
you can get all these titles like the "The Long Watch", 1942<<which made me cry >>

the color ebook reader will be free and you get all at once or little by little the COMPLETE WORKS of a master writer

<<<<<< Robert A. Heinlein >>>>>>> !!!!!!!!

a copy will be stored in the clouds for you if you lose it OR need space
a series of plain backup dvd's will mailed to you for a small 5 dollar each fee
or for 25 dollars each 8 otr 9 full spectrum MULTI MEDIA INCLUDING ALL OF f Robert A. Heinlein MOVIES IN SHINING BR 16 g each discs will be mailed to for back up or TV /LAPTIOP play back .

so many great books above
in one small space
and yes by the way a tiny surcharge 3 bucks each the paper back versions will also be mailed to you from small local printers to adorn you book shelves

the whole world can re discover Robert A. Heinlein
i want the Worlds children to know Robert A. Heinlein and URSALA Le GUIN

from free e books to $2500 ebooks
the market will give us so many lost or ignored great writers
for a very low price to kill the pirates
and economies of scale will make them higher profit now tha before

the gate keeps will die

i named one great author >> there are hundreds to fit this model

and think about school books ??


see my point my friend
WHILE all you say is true
i say
the waste will be gone
and the world will be exposed to all the great heros of yesteryear

i dream this of course


the massive clutter of new works right now is beyond my feeble mind to fix

i am not sorry for long post
just seeing a list of RAH books sends me !!!!!

<<as the film strip darkened
he lay there breathing slowly
all the nukes were broken apart
the green hills of earth would play for 6 straight days as his body slowly decended to earth
to feel that cool breeze coming from the sides of the green hills of earth
one last time >>>

peace bruce

Originally Posted by anantksundaram

Stop working yourself up into a lather by having a conversation with yourself (glad to see that you're finally posting beyond your obligatory three words).

And, get real. You're not the only one that 'multitasks.'

And, while you're at it: (i) Grow up; (ii) Get a life.

Originally Posted by benny-boy

Between the costs of producing a book (publisher) and the costs of selling it (amazon) there is negotiating room, and for a mammoth market presence like Amazon, they enjoy Wal-Mart-esque "monopsony" power, which is the buyer's equivalent of a monopoly (which technically refers to one seller). Therefore, the prices in these negotiations probably favored Amazon, because who would ever dare NOT sell to amazon? (see what happened to Rubbermaid when they told Wal-Mart to screw themselves... their sales disappeared overnight).

Apple gives publishers another mainstream outlet, and therefore negotiating power at the table with Amazon. Clearly it was MacMillan that smugly started this skirmish, and they probably had a right to be pissed after getting strongarmed all this time. Besides, with a name like Amazon (and a logo that suggests "A to Z") you are in the diversity business and it damages your brand too much to leave a major player out like this and have customers shopping elsewhere for it.

So even if Jobs "screws the customer" on this one by getting publishers more money, it is ultimately a win for competition, since Amazon's advantage was probably anti-competitive (monopolistic) to some extent.

The longer term question is just like with the music labels: why do we need publishing houses? If they are just vertical integrators of discovering / bankrolling / editing / marketing / inventorying books, why can't the next great american novel just be brought to apple directly? Or amazon for that matter? Or published from one's own website?

Sure, someone has to give Sarah Palin her bazillion dollar advance for her book, and find someone literate to actually ghostwrite it -- just like Britney Spears needs a lot of help in producing an album -- but ultimately the days of the little guy placing his beloved manuscript in a worn, soft leather briefcase. hailing a cab uptown, and taking it into a skyscraper to bring it to the masses are hopefully on the decline.

And we'll be better for it; tell me: does a physics 101 textbook really need to cost $100 and be rewritten every few years, or is that done just to juice the demand? Publishing houses aren't exactly playing clean, either. You get the idea.