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soap!

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
UP IS DOWN
BLACK IS WHITE!
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
Knowledge Smells Funny.
orange you just glad?
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post #2 of 25
what the hell are you talking about? let me ad:

ignorance is strength
war is peace

(the last one might actually, in the long run, be true)
I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
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I have a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell.
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post #3 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by G4Dude:
<strong>what the hell are you talking about? let me ad:

ignorance is strength
war is peace

(the last one might actually, in the long run, be true)</strong><hr></blockquote>

For the sake of humanity, I hope not
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
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post #4 of 25
Well in a morbid kind of way, it IS true... I mean maybe the only way to achive peace is to destroy everything...
125/51041 (top .2449%)-Amie Street - awesome independent DRM-free music
People really have got to stop thinking there is only one operating system, one economic system, one religion, and one...
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125/51041 (top .2449%)-Amie Street - awesome independent DRM-free music
People really have got to stop thinking there is only one operating system, one economic system, one religion, and one...
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post #5 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by psantora:
<strong>Well in a morbid kind of way, it IS true... I mean maybe the only way to achive peace is to destroy everything...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't know. I like to maintain some semblance of optimism in the abilities of humanity. Sure, some of them are evil, but most people are good natured at heart.
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post #6 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

I don't know. I like to maintain some semblance of optimism in the abilities of humanity. Sure, some of them are evil, but most people are good natured at heart.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. Most people are selfish at heart and will do whatever it takes to make sure that they are happy, healthy and satisfied. This leads to them discovering that they can get mre by being nice then by being jerks. Anyhow...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #7 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

I disagree. Most people are selfish at heart and will do whatever it takes to make sure that they are happy, healthy and satisfied. This leads to them discovering that they can get mre by being nice then by being jerks. Anyhow...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess that's what separates us, and I am truly sorry that you feel that way.
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
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post #8 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

I guess that's what separates us, and I am truly sorry that you feel that way.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No need to apologize.

I am not any more unhappy at that thought than I was before. I like people in general even if they are selfish. It is just human nature. People do learn not to be selfish, just not as many of them as should.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #9 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

I guess that's what separates us, and I am truly sorry that you feel that way.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agent302....do you have locks on your door? Look around you and you'll see that Noahj speaks the truth. Everything must have two sides ...we can't have love without hate...we can't have peace without war. Once you accept this immutable fact you will see things more clearly IMO.
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- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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post #10 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>

Agent302....do you have locks on your door? Look around you and you'll see that Noahj speaks the truth. Everything must have two sides ...we can't have love without hate...we can't have peace without war. Once you accept this immutable fact you will see things more clearly IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, from my continued study of international relations (ie, my major) war and peace are not necessarily tied to one another. We need to stop thinking of peace as "the absence of war". Additionally, I don't hate anyone.
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
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post #11 of 25
(the last one might actually, in the long run, be true)

They are all true, thats why 1984 was so frikin scary.

War is peace: Yin-Yang structure, I know that people will argue this with me, but the definition of peace is the absence of war, and as such the only way to be at peace/end war is to destroy everyone.

Ignorance is Strength: Go read 1984 again. It was actually a system that worked VERY well, and the presmise of it was that it was peoples ignorance of the truth that allowed them to be strong as a community. This is true even for us, as a society we can not be truely unified and strong without ignoring the follies of the system, and the evils commited by us and our respective countries.

Freedom is Slavery:

I dont feel like takign the itme to graph this out, su just read "The Three Malaises" by Charles Taylor, its along the same lines (or similar ones).

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: The Toolboi ]</p>
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #12 of 25
Thread Starter 
When you look at seemingly opposites the natrual thought is "hey wait a second? huh?" but when you speak to it some more you can see the cynical side of things how freedom can be slavery or black can be white...ya know? but knowledge smells funny is for sure.
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #13 of 25
Orwell must be rolling in his grave. The whole point of 1984 is that the Party mantra isn't true, and that we should reject it. Just because the Party was strong doesn't make the Party good. I mean, just because Winston loves Big Brother doesn't mean it's a happy ending.
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post #14 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by The Toolboi:
<strong>War is peace: Yin-Yang structure, I know that people will argue this with me, but the definition of peace is the absence of war, and as such the only way to be at peace/end war is to destroy everyone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Even if I grant your usage of negative peace (which I respectfully decline to do), if peace is the absence of war, than war necessarily cannot be peace, because if war is peace, than peace necessitates the presence of war. War and peace are mutually exclusive events.

Edit: To preempt potential respondents: While it might sound reasonable to state that war, by eliminating threats, creates peace, that argument is fundamentally flawed, because while peace might be achieved for the nation-state waging the war, the nation-state on the losing side achieves an elimination of peace. War can never create total peace.

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</p>
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post #15 of 25
Orwell must be rolling in his grave. The whole point of 1984 is that the Party mantra isn't true, and that we should reject it. Just because the Party was strong doesn't make the Party good. I mean, just because Winston loves Big Brother doesn't mean it's a happy ending.

Yes, but your missing it on a larger scale. The horror of 1984 was that IT WORKED! The point was that despite the fact that it worked, happiness alone is not enough. Its the Matrix effect, who the **** would take the red pill, when the blue pill shows you the truth?
(Thats about the only good analogy that came form that movie, *sigh*)

As for the party mantras, Orwell explains in the book how they work, and that they are true.
Again, its a matter of differenciating between wether or not they are right in that that are sound (which they are), or whether they are right in that they are the right to follow (which they are not).
As I said, the horror of 1984 was that not only did the system work, it was feasable to come into existence.
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #16 of 25
I hope that war will disapear, There will be always conflicts, but i expect that this conflicts will not turn in war. So i suggest you a new equation peace is the contrary of conflicts and thus not necessary war. it's a need , because nuclear wars will leads us to death of the humankind.
et le combat s'arreta faute de combattant.

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
post #17 of 25
I'd like to think of it from another angle...Peace can only exist personally. Meaning you can only be at peace with yourself. Tolerating each other is NOT peace! Even more, ignoring another persons thoughts or not agreeing with them is in itself war once you decide to voice what you think, it is a verbal battle. Therefore, if we maintain peace in ourselves, that is the only way peace will ever be achieved. We here in this forum are at war daily, accept it, move on...be at peace, and always learn to love more.
I thank all of you for your thoughts!
post #18 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by The Toolboi:
<strong>Orwell must be rolling in his grave. The whole point of 1984 is that the Party mantra isn't true, and that we should reject it. Just because the Party was strong doesn't make the Party good. I mean, just because Winston loves Big Brother doesn't mean it's a happy ending.

Yes, but your missing it on a larger scale. The horror of 1984 was that IT WORKED! The point was that despite the fact that it worked, happiness alone is not enough. Its the Matrix effect, who the **** would take the red pill, when the blue pill shows you the truth?
(Thats about the only good analogy that came form that movie, *sigh*)

As for the party mantras, Orwell explains in the book how they work, and that they are true.
Again, its a matter of differenciating between wether or not they are right in that that are sound (which they are), or whether they are right in that they are the right to follow (which they are not).
As I said, the horror of 1984 was that not only did the system work, it was feasable to come into existence.</strong><hr></blockquote>

NOOO!

The Party only works for the Inner Party members. It doesn't work for Winston, for Julia, for any of the proles. They live a miserable existence with no hope for change.

Additionally, Orwell explains that the Party mantras are true ONLY if you use doublethink. As I said early, if peace if the absence of war, then peace and war must be mutually exclusive, and and war cannot be peace. It's a logical contradiction, and it's a contradiction in real life as well. The war against Afghanistan may create "peace" for the U.S., but it creates instability for the citizens of Afghanistan. War can never create peace for all parties involved, and that's the inherent contradiction in the Party mantra.
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post #19 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by ijerry:
<strong>I'd like to think of it from another angle...Peace can only exist personally. Meaning you can only be at peace with yourself. Tolerating each other is NOT peace! Even more, ignoring another persons thoughts or not agreeing with them is in itself war once you decide to voice what you think, it is a verbal battle. Therefore, if we maintain peace in ourselves, that is the only way peace will ever be achieved. We here in this forum are at war daily, accept it, move on...be at peace, and always learn to love more.
I thank all of you for your thoughts! </strong><hr></blockquote>

I am at peace with myself. I'm just trying to help other board members achieve their own personal peace
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post #20 of 25
Actually, the Matrix is more in line with Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" than any 1984ish stuff. Sad to say, but Keanu Reeves was a philosopher-king in that movie.
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post #21 of 25
I can't remember who said it, or where I read it, but an old interview I read one day had this to say about peace, "Peace, big deal. A cow leads a peaceful life too, untill one day the farmer takes it to the barn and shoots it in the head."
IBL!
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IBL!
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post #22 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>I can't remember who said it, or where I read it, but an old interview I read one day had this to say about peace, "Peace, big deal. A cow leads a peaceful life too, untill one day the farmer takes it to the barn and shoots it in the head."</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you saying you're a cow? I don't plan on being led to the barn any time soon.
"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
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"Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"
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post #23 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>I can't remember who said it, or where I read it, but an old interview I read one day had this to say about peace, "Peace, big deal. A cow leads a peaceful life too, untill one day the farmer takes it to the barn and shoots it in the head."</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ah, then there IS hope that those stupid Gateway commercials will end one day!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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post #24 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by jesperas:
<strong>

Ah, then there IS hope that those stupid Gateway commercials will end one day!

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ha, a nice positive spin on it
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post #25 of 25
ARGH! damn it, I just wiped my post by pressing tab accidently.

Ok, ill try to sum it up quickly.

Please give the definition of peace that your working off of if you with to denounce the dictionary.com (I admit, a bad source) definition.

The Party only works for the Inner Party members. It doesn't work for Winston, for Julia, for any of the proles. They live a miserable existence with no hope for change.

It only benifits the innerparty with wealth and riches in the same manner as we thing of bennifit. I think your missing the true horror of 1984, which was the idea that there are these "beatle men", the next generation, the people who grew up with the 1984 government, who learn from birth how to work so as to fit perfectly into society. These people are happy and ocntent. They thrive at the 2 minute hate, and at their pointless jobs.
(what does that remind you of?)

As for the "war is peace" thing, you can see it as you like. Theres multiple ways of looking at it. The problem is that theres no way to defend it without oging on for 4 pages, which Im not willing to do at this time of night.

as for the matrix thing... I was refering to the point that the horror of the matrix was the same as 1984, people "blindly accepting" their lives and reveling in it.

Also, as long as your at peace your preparing for war, unless your demillitarized. Going in to this would take 3 pages
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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