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Inside Apple's iPad: VGA video output - Page 2

post #41 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:37am
After the phenomenal success of the iPad 1.0 in 2010, Steve will allow us to purchase the new improved iPAD HD in 2011. It will sport a 16:9 screen at 1280 x 720 and have a mini-displayport driving 720p out in addition to the dock connector. Prices will be the same, but the new iPad Classic that looks like 1.0 with more memory than before will sell for 349 USD (for those still using VGA projectors and 4:3 monitors).
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post #42 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

I completely understand, and I think in 2010 it is pretty poor on Apple's part to have their worst product as the only gateway to HD output.

Many would say it's practical. Maybe it is, but the Apple TV is a failure, so iFail to see why they need to continue propping it up by crippling NEW products.

The iPad has 720p playback. It can watch YouTube HD, it can Rent/Buy HD Movies/TV Shows. Ok, that is a big step for the Apple portable....no such feature on the iPhone or iPod Touch to date...

But the iPhone has been able to output its highest capable resolution via component cable since day one.

iPad is intentionally crippled in that it outputs less than it does on the screen. It's lame, no matter how you slice it.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I wish they'd do something a bit more interesting with the AppleTV. I have one, but it's basically a music server for my multi-room audio system. I think I've rented 1 movie on it and that's it.
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post #43 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:47am
Revised Edit
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post #44 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post

After the phenomenal success of the iPad 1.0 in 2010, Steve will allow us to purchase the new improved iPAD HD in 2011. It will sport a 16:9 screen at 1280 x 720 and have a mini-displayport driving 720p out in addition to the dock connector. Prices will be the same, but the new iPad Classic that looks like 1.0 with more memory than before will sell for 349 USD (for those still using VGA projectors and 4:3 monitors).

As much I'd like to see your mythical device, I just don't see a 16:9 aspect ratio being practical on a tablet type device. I think it would earmark the device too much as a movie or HD TV show playback device as opposed to the multi-purpose device they're trying to position it as. Don't forget, an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper has a ratio of 1.29:1 (H:W) which closely relates to the 1.33:1 ratio of the iPad (assuming the 1024x768 screen has square pixels).
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post #45 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by foobar

If app support for it takes off, they might add an HDMI or DisplayPort version, but I currently don't see a real use case for it.

Hooking it up to a hotel TV or a friend's TV or your bedroom TV to watch videos. How's that?

I can't image that's what a lot of people would buy an iPad for. It's something to hold in your hands, you pay premium for the mobile experience, after all. I don't think many people want a $499 memory stick for transporting video files...

Sure, it would be nice to have the option, but anything that doesn't use the touchscreen seems kind of besides the point of having one. Imagine having an "all powerful" portable device and having to get up and walk to pause the movie, because it's chained to the TV. Really doesn't sound like the experience Apple wants to sell, does it?

Plus, the iPad screen in your hands will look bigger than most TVs on the wall.

Now, as I said, with wireless transmission the whole thing looks much better. The iPad remains in your hand and is player and remote. That I could see happening...
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post #46 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Zune HD can deliver 720p output. and it's enabled.

and you still have to buy the special dock to do it. So what's your point?
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post #47 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Zune HD can deliver 720p output. and it's enabled.

And impractical for the 90% of projectors out there in the real world that don't support it.

But it has that feature and the all important checkbox! /sarcasm

And people wonder why Apple sells rings around them? Sheesh...
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post #48 of 166
2/8/10 at 6:59am


NEC WMA100 Wireless Projector Receiver

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #49 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

i have about 9 of this things
i never knew whar they were for

Sounds like a personal problem. The labeling on the package was always sufficient for me to figure out their intended use, but failing that you can always visit an Apple store and I'm sure they would be happy to identify them for you.

Quote:
the ipad is crippled on purpose

The iPad is NOT crippled - it has expansion! That magical keyword that everyone always loves to accuse Apple of lacking. Yet here it is and people still criticize?

Inconceivable!

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SJ wants us to buy all his products

Well duh, but not in the way you envision:

Quote:
the ATV >> IPAD .. DREAM JUST died

Huh? What the heck does the Apple TV had to do with the iPad? They serve two totally and unrelated purposes. Your disappointment stems from faulty expectations more than any shortcomings in the products.
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post #50 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

As much I'd like to see your mythical device, I just don't see a 16:9 aspect ratio being practical on a tablet type device. I think it would earmark the device too much as a movie or HD TV show playback device as opposed to the multi-purpose device they're trying to position it as. Don't forget, an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper has a ratio of 1.29:1 (H:W) which closely relates to the 1.33:1 ratio of the iPad (assuming the 1024x768 screen has square pixels).

Good point. But the ePub standard is all about reflow and taking the "paper size" out of publishing. I just don't see extending the length of a "page" as a longterm problem. I just think the 4:3 screen size is one of a number of compromises Apple shrewdly made for the 1.0 product. As with the iPod, there can be an indefinite stream of "new, improved" models: HD for movies, camera for vid conferencing, new sensors for better gameplay, and always, always faster silicon and more memory. In Steve's vision there will be demand for the next year's model for another 5-10 years. I suspect he's right.
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post #51 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAlexander View Post

You're pretty well saying DVI and HDMI and DisplayPort are pointless. To my eye they don't make much difference - but if you're going to say what you've said, may as well make it clear that you see no point in the whole digital connector movement.

I think that's reading quite a bit into things. The simple fact is, VGA is the dominant (by a VERY wide margin) connector on projectors. Blame the PC/Windows crowd - display port is a much more modern and sane standard but the majority of PC laptops still come with VGA ports. Until that changes, don't expect to see projectors with display port any time soon. And once they show up with display port, there are still going to be millions of legacy projectors with only VGA out there. VGA will be around for a long time

For the first time I now have a PC laptop with something other than VGA out - my Lenovo T400s (an awesome laptop, BTW - almost as good as Apple's) has a display port on the back. And it still has a VGA connector /facepalm

Quote:
I don't buy this. Yes VGA is for computing workspaces. But Composite and Component is for TV. For users who do want to watch video, it's a pity it doesn't output widescreen 720p (over component). Instead it downgrades it to widescreen 480p NTSC. So Apple offers widescreen but only lower resolutions.

Why?

Because the iPad isn't targeted at being tethered to a TV? The whole point of it is mobility and intimacy. If you have to have it attached to your TV, how intimate is that? As others have pointed out, there are other devices that are more appropriate to tether to your TV than the iPad.
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post #52 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Yep. So can the Archos Tablet. And with the DVR dock, it can schedule and record 60 Gigs of HD TV.

The more I learn about the 'Pad, the more disappointed I become.

So the iPad won't act as a DVR and your disappointed? What? There are many things I can think of (and do have) attached to my TV, but the iPad is not one of them.

For controlling some of the things attached to my TV, I think the iPad will be brilliant! But why would I want to tether something as mobile as the iPad to a TV? That just makes no sense at all.

It's like complaining that an airplane makes a poor submarine. Well duh!
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post #53 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post

Good point. But the ePub standard is all about reflow and taking the "paper size" out of publishing. I just don't see extending the length of a "page" as a longterm problem. I just think the 4:3 screen size is one of a number of compromises Apple shrewdly made for the 1.0 product. As with the iPod, there can be an indefinite stream of "new, improved" models: HD for movies, camera for vid conferencing, new sensors for better gameplay, and always, always faster silicon and more memory. In Steve's vision there will be demand for the next year's model for another 5-10 years. I suspect he's right.

I suspect SJ is right as well. I just grow weary sometimes of what seems like intentionally crippled devices just so they can sell it to you again a few years later with the omitted feature enabled.
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post #54 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The iPad gets the new VGA output option primarily to support video projectors
1024x768 is called XGA resolution, but it's still delivered via a VGA connector
most (all?) video projectors support the (iPad's) XGA resolution of 1024x768 over a VGA port
The iPad presents a page format suited to a computing workspace.

I think it's all there.
And I still haven't seen a video projector without a VGA connector taking XGA. Wide spread standard.

iTunes LP though is by definition a 1280x720 HTML package.
Will the iPad scale it when its supported?
Perhaps Apple will use the 192 spare pixels to make a little OSD under or over the iTunes LP content? Like options for next track, exit and volume.
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post #55 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:17am
Here's my question about Keynote and the iPad--

Does the iPad allow for an extended desktop so that I'd get a presenter's screen on the iPad and my presentation on a projector?

I use Keynote at least twice a week and make extensive use of presenters notes. If the iPad merely mirrors to a projector, it won't be as useful for my purposes.

Does anyone know yet if it offers an extended desktop?
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post #56 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

But I won't purchase it because I can't take the HD video anyplace and play it on another TV (friend's house, hotel, etc). Why would I pay the same price as the DVD for something that's essentially tied to my one TV?

Until recently it wasn't even possible to hook into most hotel TV's, and even now it's still pretty rare. And most of the time my laptop or the display on the iPad will be a thousand times better than what is in the hotel room anyway.

As for a friends house, a DVD isn't HD, very few of my friends have BlueRay, and they are usually the ones providing the video content anyway if we are going to watch a movie. Beyond movies, there are multiple ways to get to video but just as I have never used my iPod or iPhone to show video, I can't imagine using the iPad to either. But if I wanted to, amazingly the plasma's, LCD's and even my HD CRT RPTV all have VGA inputs. My sisters newest LCD only has DVI, but a cheap VGA to DVI dongle fixes that.

Bottom line - if portable HD video is your thing, the Archos seems like a much better solution for you. Thankfully I'm glad Apple didn't focus on movie playback. I think it's a grossly overblown use case and a 16:9 screen would be much more awkward than 4:3.
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post #57 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by normis View Post

They chose VGA for other reasons, probably price.

Or that people will plug it into projectors for presentations far more than for televisions and VGA is the dominant connector for projectors.
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post #58 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:26am
Great. But is it possible to use a USB-based wireless remote control with the iPad like this one?

Keyspan Wireless Presentation Remote for Conferences, Boardrooms and Classrooms
Model #: PR-US2
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products...xtModelID=3904

Thanks.
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post #59 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Well duh!

Abster used to go after people like those with much dirtier words.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #60 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Think of it from Apple's perspective. If they enabled 720p video out from the iPad, then it would compete with one of their own existing products. Since the AppleTV probably doesn't see much in the way of sales, even a little bit of competition from the iPad could spell doom for it.

I think they know that very (VERY) few people tether portable devices to TV's. It just does't make sense.

I love that some of the people arguing for connecting their iPad to their TV are the same folks that in other threads argue passionately about how they will never download movies digitally because of speed, size, quality, etc...
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post #61 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

I completely understand, and I think in 2010 it is pretty poor on Apple's part to have their worst product as the only gateway to HD output.

So all those mini's that are used as media centers are irrelevant? Heck, my Mac Pro and my MacBook Pro can output HDTV - over HDMI no less.

This is a portable device. Is it really that hard to understand why Apple doesn't envision it tethered to a TV?
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post #62 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post

After the phenomenal success of the iPad 1.0 in 2010, Steve will allow us to purchase the new improved iPAD HD in 2011. It will sport a 16:9 screen

I can safely bet you that this will never happen. 16:9 is good for one thing: Movies. The iPad is about much more than movies.

But keep waiting for it....
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post #63 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

I suspect SJ is right as well. I just grow weary sometimes of what seems like intentionally crippled devices just so they can sell it to you again a few years later with the omitted feature enabled.

So now instead of a failure, because it doesn't fit your narrow definition of what you want it's crippled?

Really? By not having a feature that less than 20% of purchasers would ever use? And I think that's being VERY generous...

Yes, a future version of the iPad will probably support display port (I wouldn't ever expect HDMI from Apple) - but more from the evolution of things and VGA finally dying off than any artificial product stratification that's being implied in these threads
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post #64 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmansfield View Post

Does anyone know yet if it offers an extended desktop?

That's a great point, and we probably won't know until it ships.
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post #65 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:45am
"Users who want to deliver HD content on their TV would be better suited to using an appliance such as Apple TV"

Which wont do me much good when I'm in a hotel somewhere.
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post #66 of 166
2/8/10 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

So now instead of a failure, because it doesn't fit your narrow definition of what you want it's crippled?

Really? By not having a feature that less than 20% of purchasers would ever use? And I think that's being VERY generous...

Yes, a future version of the iPad will probably support display port (I wouldn't ever expect HDMI from Apple) - but more from the evolution of things and VGA finally dying off than any artificial product stratification that's being implied in these threads

First if all, I never specifically mentioned the iPad. I said, "I just grow weary sometimes of what seems like intentionally crippled devices". Second, you have no idea what my view is so how you can call it narrow is beyond me. I personally couldn't care less about tethering an iPad to my TV. IMO, that's not really what's it's for. I've already signed up for notification as to when I can pre-order one and have no problem dropping $500, $600 or even $700 for one.
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post #67 of 166
2/8/10 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

AI sure loves those absurdly complex timeline graphs, don't they? I mean, they'll cook one of them up for anything!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

I think they know that very (VERY) few people tether portable devices to TV's. It just does't make sense.

It's clear Apple has a clear user focus in mind. I can't recall an Apple product announcement that didn't upset someone for not including support specifically for them.

This is the first Apple device with a Dock Connector that can load and play on screen 720p videos, so maybe they'll get 720p video out before it launches. It might even be there now, just not officially supported. Apple has a history of having capabilities not listed on their spec sheets.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #68 of 166
2/8/10 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

AWhy VGA on the iPad?

So why is Apple reverting back in time to VGA output on the iPad? For starters, most video projectors support the iPad's XGA resolution of 1024x768 over a VGA port, while only a few support HDTV-style resolutions such as 720p (1280x720) over an HDMI or DVI port.

I agree, I've never seen a WXGA, aka 720p, presentation. All presentations are in a 4 by 3 format, so the two sizes used are XGA, 1024 x 768 and SVGA, 800 x 600. The iPad has an iWorks suite. Clearly you can make Keynotes, and it stands to reason you can present Keynotes, so XGA video out thru a VGA connector makes complete sense.
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post #69 of 166
2/8/10 at 8:39am
DP supports far higher resolutions than DVI or HDMI, that's why Apple went with it for their Macs.
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post #70 of 166
2/8/10 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

This thread raises the question, will it ever be common to connect tablet computers to things via wires? Other than charging, my bet is no. The tablet form and wires/connectors will never be a popular combination.

This isn't motivated by technological limitations, but rather by the form factor. Wired devices are more practical the more stationary they are. Connecting a wire to a laptop is somewhat troublesome but is tolerable because laptops tend to be put in on something and then used in that position for a while. Meanwhile, tablets are constantly held and shifted into different positions while sitting, standing, lying, or walking. For this reason, the cord is more troublesome than it is for desktops and laptops.

An excellent point. Ever since the iPad was announced, I've been thinking about how I'd use one for presentations. I expect to want one if for that purpose only. But even the weight of the clunky video cable by itself tends to make it hard to keep the small DLP projector I use from moving around. Setting this up is kind of like defusing a bomb. At least when the projector and laptop are happy, the setup doesn't need to be touched again. Connect the projector to an iPad, and now what?

Another question I have is whether the iPad supports ColorSync profiles. I assume not but that would be too bad, since most projectors have pretty poor color balance out of the box.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #71 of 166
2/8/10 at 8:48am
Someone needs to test the VGA adapter on the 3 iPhones and see if it works on any of them!!!
The article makes little sense, as it is widely reported that the iPhone 3GS is capable of 720P output...
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post #72 of 166
2/8/10 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post

When it was clear the netbook was not gonna work and no replacement was available from our technical staff, we started brainstorming. Her husband asked whether her iPod touch couldn't run the powerpoint presentation.

I said that my guess was it wouldn't, but that the upcoming iPad would have been perfectly suited for the task.

Not sure how you think the iPad is any more suited than the iPod touch, unless you mean the woman would have to import her Powerpoint into Keynote and then run it.

You could have had the woman export her slides into a compatible format, like jpgs or pdfs, and then she could present her slides in the Photos app. If PowerPoint can export into a Quicktime file, then you could have shown it as a movie, pausing when necessary. That helps if you have animations that a static slide won't show. I know Keynote allows you to export into Quicktime, but I've forgotten if PowerPoint does.

Either way, you would also need a way to connect, so a quick trip to BestBuy would be necessary to get a Connection Kit to allow the iPod to connect to the projector.
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post #73 of 166
2/8/10 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

AI sure loves those absurdly complex timeline graphs, don't they? I mean, they'll cook one of them up for anything!

And they make a lot of mistakes on these graphs
American centrism dominates 50% of the population here. That half don't think outside the box ... or perhaps just don't think. © digitalclips
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American centrism dominates 50% of the population here. That half don't think outside the box ... or perhaps just don't think. © digitalclips
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post #74 of 166
2/8/10 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenC View Post

DP supports far higher resolutions than DVI or HDMI, that's why Apple went with it for their Macs.

Wiki says that
DisplayPort's max resolution is 2560 x 1600 @ 75Hz
HDMI's max resolution is 2560 x 1600 @ 75Hz / 4096 × 2160 @ 24Hz
DVI's max resolution is 2560 x 1600 @ 60Hz
American centrism dominates 50% of the population here. That half don't think outside the box ... or perhaps just don't think. © digitalclips
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American centrism dominates 50% of the population here. That half don't think outside the box ... or perhaps just don't think. © digitalclips
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post #75 of 166
2/8/10 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmansfield View Post

Here's my question about Keynote and the iPad--

Does the iPad allow for an extended desktop so that I'd get a presenter's screen on the iPad and my presentation on a projector?

I use Keynote at least twice a week and make extensive use of presenters notes. If the iPad merely mirrors to a projector, it won't be as useful for my purposes.

Does anyone know yet if it offers an extended desktop?

The iPad does not mirror anything. It only outputs video the app is specially designed to output, so essentially it only creates an "extended desktop." look at the keynote demo and you'll see it's showing one UI on the iPad while the actual presentation is being output via VGA. The iPad's Keynote display allows you to drive a virtual laser pointer or annotate the presentation John Madden style with your fingers while you present it.
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post #76 of 166
2/8/10 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gin_tonic View Post

Wiki says that
DisplayPort's max resolution is 2560 x 1600 @ 75Hz
HDMI's max resolution is 2560 x 1600 @ 75Hz / 4096 × 2160 @ 24Hz
DVI's max resolution is 2560 x 1600 @ 60Hz

Always with the lying.

DP v1.2 21.6Gbps, 3840 x 2400 @ 60Hz

... and many other features that HDMI can't compete with.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #77 of 166
2/8/10 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

I completely understand, and I think in 2010 it is pretty poor on Apple's part to have their worst product as the only gateway to HD output.

Many would say it's practical. Maybe it is, but the Apple TV is a failure, so iFail to see why they need to continue propping it up by crippling NEW products.

The iPad has 720p playback. It can watch YouTube HD, it can Rent/Buy HD Movies/TV Shows. Ok, that is a big step for the Apple portable....no such feature on the iPhone or iPod Touch to date...

But the iPhone has been able to output its highest capable resolution via component cable since day one.

iPad is intentionally crippled in that it outputs less than it does on the screen. It's lame, no matter how you slice it.

This is well said, especially the last two bits.

And for all the apologists for Apple and the iPad, saying its about cost and compatability its just not that simple. My laptop doesn't do VGA out and guess what? It's also more likely to be hooked up to a projector to deliver a talk than it ever is to be connected to a widescreen TV. Projectors are what laptops are meant to be connected to and yet they've evolved to modern standards. And with the iPad we hear they're going to be great for lectures, but we also know the lecturers like showing videos on TVs as well. If they roll in a TV made this century as far as I can tell its not to be able to hook up to the iPad at all.

Another issue that's inevitably going to come up if Apple fixed it so external video output is decent quality is the fact that the iPad will only play a tiny amount of video that is in circulation. Want to use the iPad to present a talk that has anything other than Quicktime video? ... not gonna happen either.
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post #78 of 166
2/8/10 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

I suspect SJ is right as well. I just grow weary sometimes of what seems like intentionally crippled devices just so they can sell it to you again a few years later with the omitted feature enabled.

Here's a tip; maybe this will help you;

There is no such thing as a product without omitted features. None.
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post #79 of 166
2/8/10 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post

After the phenomenal success of the iPad 1.0 in 2010, Steve will allow us to purchase the new improved iPAD HD in 2011. It will sport a 16:9 screen at 1280 x 720 and have a mini-displayport driving 720p out in addition to the dock connector. Prices will be the same, but the new iPad Classic that looks like 1.0 with more memory than before will sell for 349 USD (for those still using VGA projectors and 4:3 monitors).

If you think that will happen you don't know Apple.

The second iPad will have more storage.

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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post #80 of 166
2/8/10 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Always with the lying.

Who is lying?
American centrism dominates 50% of the population here. That half don't think outside the box ... or perhaps just don't think. © digitalclips
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American centrism dominates 50% of the population here. That half don't think outside the box ... or perhaps just don't think. © digitalclips
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