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Why are liberals so condescending? - Page 5

post #161 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Only if you consider war with Iran good and right for America and her allies. Interesting.

I also find referring to America as female interesting. It allows the right wing to rape America without appearing gay.

The psycho-sexual aspect is definitely a leitmotif (see my earlier comments above re Thatcher/Palin and the desire of wingers to be dominated, abused and spanked - actually there is a very strong BDSM element in what passes for right-wing 'thought' from torture onwards but I digress) and is quite worrying but what is also of significant concern in the post you are replying to is the unquestioned assumption that 'what is right for America' would even be apparent to Palin.

Or, put another way, it seems that Trumpt is labouring under the illusion that Palin's opinions and statements are by definition 'what is good for America'...

It is of utmost concern...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #162 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Only if you consider war with Iran good and right for America and her allies. Interesting.

I also find referring to America as female interesting. It allows the right wing to rape America without appearing gay.

Many folks consider a nuclear armed Iran too destablizing and dangerous. It is more along the lines of choosing a small conventional war over a large war involving atomic weapons.

As for the second part, thanks or exemplifying the thread title.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #163 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Many folks consider a nuclear armed Iran too destablizing and dangerous.

The same folks are living in fear of many things...Saddam, Taleban, Iran...and after they've decimated there it will be somewhere else.

The fact is that these people are just scared. Scared of themselves, scared of life, scared of death...

No amount of killing and destroying other cultures will ever change that...their sickness is inside themselves...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #164 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Many folks consider a nuclear armed Iran too destablizing and dangerous. It is more along the lines of choosing a small conventional war over a large war involving atomic weapons.

As for the second part, thanks or exemplifying the thread title.

So... there is a nuclear armed Iran? Or is all this action pre-emptive, i.e. illegal.

OMG... there is a new raghead neighbor in my neighborhood. I tried knocking on his door to ask him if he had any illegal automatic weapons, and he told me to fuck off. If he wasn't hiding soething he would have cooperated. I know he's planning on buying illegal automatic weapons. I'm going to break into his house and shoot him, because the threat of him having illegal automatic weapons is too great.
post #165 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So... there is a nuclear armed Iran? Or is all this action pre-emptive, i.e. illegal.

OMG... there is a new raghead neighbor in my neighborhood. I tried knocking on his door to ask him if he had any illegal automatic weapons, and he told me to fuck off. If he wasn't hiding soething he would have cooperated. I know he's planning on buying illegal automatic weapons. I'm going to break into his house and shoot him, because the threat of him having illegal automatic weapons is too great.

Bearing in mind the title of this thread - I can't think of anything more condescending than the current ideas re Iran and nukes.

Basically even if they did get them then the minute they used them then THEY really would be 'wiped off the map' by the US or Israel or both.

There is no way they could ever use them.

But the current war-drums beating the wingers into a frenzy is based on the idea that they would - this in turns implies they are stupid. Or insane.

Now THAT'S condescending. And dangerous and offensive too.

Of course it is just a rationale though and not true...no-one really fears a nuclear Iran...Israel would bomb any such installations before it was 50% down the road.

No, the whole point is merely more justification for war down the line - you're looking at the '45 minute' claim and 'WMD' all over again and we should all know that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #166 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So... there is a nuclear armed Iran? Or is all this action pre-emptive, i.e. illegal.

OMG... there is a new raghead neighbor in my neighborhood. I tried knocking on his door to ask him if he had any illegal automatic weapons, and he told me to fuck off. If he wasn't hiding soething he would have cooperated. I know he's planning on buying illegal automatic weapons. I'm going to break into his house and shoot him, because the threat of him having illegal automatic weapons is too great.

I find it fascinating that the only ones in the thread using the racist terms to describe certain ethnic groups are the ones supposably defending them from a perceived attack that has not occurred on these forums. Keep projecting guys.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #167 of 334
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #168 of 334

Look - I told you above.....those spellings are CORRECT - it is you who is spelling it wrong....GO BACK 2 SKOOL.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #169 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The same folks are living in fear of many things...Saddam, Taleban, Iran...and after they've decimated there it will be somewhere else.

The fact is that these people are just scared. Scared of themselves, scared of life, scared of death...

No amount of killing and destroying other cultures will ever change that...their sickness is inside themselves...

Yes and the fact that Iran has announced that they can create weapons grade plutonium and is testing long range missles makes all this just nonsense. In the meantime we should all fear the imaginary KKK who hasn't lynched anyone in half a century or perhaps the imaginary warming as told to us by the tree rings. Maybe the imaginary oppressors of all who are called Republicans are who we should really be fearing. This is deep reasoning here. Fear of those who fear is the only real fear to fear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

So... there is a nuclear armed Iran? Or is all this action pre-emptive, i.e. illegal.

OMG... there is a new raghead neighbor in my neighborhood. I tried knocking on his door to ask him if he had any illegal automatic weapons, and he told me to fuck off. If he wasn't hiding soething he would have cooperated. I know he's planning on buying illegal automatic weapons. I'm going to break into his house and shoot him, because the threat of him having illegal automatic weapons is too great.

What a terrible and racist analogy. I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I find it fascinating that the only ones in the thread using the racist terms to describe certain ethnic groups are the ones supposably defending them from a perceived attack that has not occurred on these forums. Keep projecting guys.

Exactly, the only way to defend against racist apparently it to be racist.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #170 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Exactly, the only way to defend against racist apparently it to be racist.

So you admit the first comment was racist - the second was clearly analogy btw - irony even...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #171 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

What a terrible and racist analogy. I'll leave it at that.

Yes, it is terrible and racist. Just like the people who think we should attack Iran before they actually break any laws. Being difficult isn't breaking a law. Just like in Iraq. Iraq getting fed up with the inspection process which again and again showed no evidence of WMD was no cause for invasion. If you treat people like shit they're not going to be easy to deal with. Iran has a right to nuclear energy. They're sick of the west telling them that simply because they don't support Israeli territorial sovereignty over Palestinian territorial sovereignty, they can't have nuclear energy. The West rattles their swords, so Iran rattles back.
post #172 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So you admit the first comment was racist - the second was clearly analogy btw - irony even...

This must make sense to someone, somewhere. Enjoy fishing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, it is terrible and racist. Just like the people who think we should attack Iran before they actually break any laws. Being difficult isn't breaking a law. Just like in Iraq. Iraq getting fed up with the inspection process which again and again showed no evidence of WMD was no cause for invasion. If you treat people like shit they're not going to be easy to deal with. Iran has a right to nuclear energy. They're sick of the west telling them that simply because they don't support Israeli territorial sovereignty over Palestinian territorial sovereignty, they can't have nuclear energy. The West rattles their swords, so Iran rattles back.

It goes a little further than that and rather you can wrap your mind around it or not, disagreement with that point doesn't make one racist. Likewise acting racist to supposedly combat racism is in fact, racist. Iran has declared Israel doesn't have a right to exist and that they will exterminate them. That goes a little further than "treating people like shit" and even a bit further than territorial sovereignty.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #173 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

This must make sense to someone, somewhere. Enjoy fishing.



It goes a little further than that and rather you can wrap your mind around it or not, disagreement with that point doesn't make one racist. Likewise acting racist to supposedly combat racism is in fact, racist. Iran has declared Israel doesn't have a right to exist and that they will exterminate them. That goes a little further than "treating people like shit" and even a bit further than territorial sovereignty.

Now that we know Iran has not declared that we do not have to go over it again. Especially as the link you posted outlines the actual mis-translations in depth.

We do not even need to ask WHY you keep repeating the lie.

We can ask however HOW you feel about lying to support your argument.

Is there any sense of introspection? Or is it like some wrongly say of the Shi'i that they are allowed to lie to those that oppose them?

Seriously..how does it feel? Surely it would be better to actually argue poitns that can be supported? Or don't you care?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #174 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

This must make sense to someone, somewhere. Enjoy fishing.



It goes a little further than that and rather you can wrap your mind around it or not, disagreement with that point doesn't make one racist. Likewise acting racist to supposedly combat racism is in fact, racist. Iran has declared Israel doesn't have a right to exist and that they will exterminate them. That goes a little further than "treating people like shit" and even a bit further than territorial sovereignty.

There goes that lie again. Oh, boy...

This has been explained to you again and again. Iran has never expressed the intent to exterminate Israel.

I'm going to say something right now.

Israel does not have the right to claim sovereignty over most of the land they currently claim sovereignty over. Israel should not exist as it does today. One day, like all things on this earth, Israel will no longer exist.

Now tell me how I said I'm going to blow up Israel.
post #175 of 334
Meanwhile, Iran has said in unambiguous terms, again and again, that they have no intent to produce nuclear weapons. Yet those things that are said clearly are ignored, while those things that can be misinterpreted and misrepresented are embraced. It all falls back to ulterior motive. You're grasping for an excuse to attack.
post #176 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There goes that lie again. Oh, boy...

This has been explained to you again and again. Iran has never expressed the intent to exterminate Israel.

I'm going to say something right now.

Israel does not have the right to claim sovereignty over most of the land they currently claim sovereignty over. Israel should not exist as it does today. One day, like all things on this earth, Israel will no longer exist.

Now tell me how I said I'm going to blow up Israel.

Further, in the very same article posted to support the extermination claim above there is this quote:

Quote:
Speaking at a D-8 summit meeting in July 2008, when asked to comment on whether he has called for the destruction of Israel he denied that his country would ever instigate military action, there being "no need for any measures by the Iranian people". Instead he claimed that "the Zionist regime" in Israel would eventually collapse on its own. "I assure you... there won't be any war in the future," both the BBC and AP quoted him as saying.

And asked if he objected to the government of Israel or Jewish people, he said that "creating an objection against the Zionists doesn't mean that there are objections against the Jewish". He added that Jews lived in Iran and were represented in the country's parliament.

For those interested in Iran's Jewish community (a very interesting topic) the Sephardic Studies site is a good one (is a Jewish site not an Iranian one btw):

Quote:
Iran is home to 25,000 - some here say 35,000 - Jews. The Jewish population is less than half the number that lived here before the Islamic revolution of 1979. But the Jews have tried to compensate for their diminishing numbers by adopting a new religious fervor.

''The funny thing is that before the Islamic revolution, you would see maybe 20 old men in the synagogue,'' whispers Nahit Eliyason, 48, as she climbs over four other women to find one of the few vacant seats. ''Now the place is full. You can barely find a seat.'' Parvis Yashaya, a film producer who heads Tehran's Jewish community, adds: ''We are smaller, but we are stronger in some ways.''

Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, and a Jewish hospital, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish representative in the Iranian parliament. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles, its reading room decorated with a photograph of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a ''fatwa'' decreeing that the Jews were to be protected. Similar edicts also protect Iran's tiny Christian minority.

Jews, unlike Muslims, can keep small flasks of home-brewed wine or arrack to drink within the privacy of their homes - in theory, for religious purposes. Some Hebrew schools are coed, and men and women dance with each other at weddings, practices strictly forbidden for Muslims.

''Sometimes I think they are kinder to the Jews than they are to themselves. ... If we are gathered in a house, and the family is having a ceremony with wine or the music is playing too loud, if they find out we are Jews, they don't bother us so much,'' Eliyason said.

''Everywhere in the world there are people who don't like Jews. In England, they draw swastikas on Jewish graves. I don't think that Iran is more dangerous for Jews than other places.''
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #177 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There goes that lie again. Oh, boy...

This has been explained to you again and again. Iran has never expressed the intent to exterminate Israel.

Really I would love for you to find the quote where it has been explained to me even one time. Please do me the honors.

Quote:
I'm going to say something right now.

Israel does not have the right to claim sovereignty over most of the land they currently claim sovereignty over. Israel should not exist as it does today. One day, like all things on this earth, Israel will no longer exist.

Now tell me how I said I'm going to blow up Israel.

First your position does not represent the U.S. position on this matter and thus your actions would not be what our government's actions would be. Second, stating an eventual conclusion versus one you are going to proactively undertake is not the same so stop with the bad analogies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Meanwhile, Iran has said in unambiguous terms, again and again, that they have no intent to produce nuclear weapons. Yet those things that are said clearly are ignored, while those things that can be misinterpreted and misrepresented are embraced. It all falls back to ulterior motive. You're grasping for an excuse to attack.

Words and actions are different things, especially to those of us who don't deal in the intent game. Iran needed no ability to refine weapons grade uranium in order to have a nuclear power program. It not only has the ability to refine to weapons grade but has announced it as well. The fact that you desire to assign motive to me only hammers home the point of the intent game even more. No one needs to seek the ability nor announce the ability to make a nuclear weapon just to have an energy program. Iran sought and announced it because they want more than energy. Actions always speak louder than words and Iran's actions speak plenty.

Here is that right wing wacko, Hillary Clinton, our Sec. of State driving the point home.

Quote:
Clinton ticked off a list of Iranian actions that she said violated its obligation not to pursue nuclear weapons, including construction of the Qom enrichment facility that came to light last fall.

"You have to ask yourself, 'Why are they doing this?'" Clinton said.

Noting that Iran insists it is not pursuing the bomb, she said, "The evidence doesn't support that."

"Everyone who I speak with in the Gulf, including the leaders here and leaders elsewhere in the region, are expressing deep concern about Iran's intentions," she said.

Clinton also called Iran "the largest supporter of terrorism in the world today."

She said the goal is to have not only a non-nuclear Iran but also an entire Middle East free of nuclear weapons.

"If Iran gets a nuclear weapon, that hope disappears," she said, "because then other countries which feel threatened by Iran will say to themselves, 'If Iran has a nuclear weapon, I better get one, too, in order to protect my people.'

"Then you have a nuclear arms race in the region," she said.

Here is that right wing wacko rag, the NY Times, noting that the stepped up enrichment is a violation.

Also note that this isn't a court of law. Iran doesn't get probation. It doesn't get five years in the slammer. We don't have to start counting bodies before we can feel justified to act.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #178 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Really I would love for you to find the quote where it has been explained to me even one time. Please do me the honors.

Or you could read the Wiki article you yourself posted - that explains it quite succinctly.

Unless you just posted a knee-jerk on the title and didn't read the contents...nah...couldn't be...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #179 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Or you could read the Wiki article you yourself posted - that explains it quite succinctly.

Unless you just posted a knee-jerk on the title and didn't read the contents...nah...couldn't be...

I read the rebuttal within the article and additionally all the conclusions that remained unaffect by the spin thank you.

In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor and Israeli resident Ethan Bronner argued that Ahmadinejad had called for Israel to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole and Steele, Bronner stated:

But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.

Bronner continued: "..it is hard to argue that, from Israel's point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran's president call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question."


If you want to continue to claim that a declaration that you will wipe someone off the map is a non-threatening and innocent gesture, feel free to have your credibility rest on it.

Likewise you and other can ignore the fact that the refining of uranium above the level necessary for power creation has been admitted to and is happening all while the language of Iran claims otherwise from the actions.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #180 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I read the rebuttal within the article and additionally all the conclusions that remained unaffect by the spin thank you.

In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor and Israeli resident Ethan Bronner argued that Ahmadinejad had called for Israel to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole and Steele, Bronner stated:

But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Irans most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say wipe off or wipe away is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.

Bronner continued: "..it is hard to argue that, from Israel's point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran's president call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question."


If you want to continue to claim that a declaration that you will wipe someone off the map is a non-threatening and innocent gesture, feel free to have your credibility rest on it.

Likewise you and other can ignore the fact that the refining of uranium above the level necessary for power creation has been admitted to and is happening all while the language of Iran claims otherwise from the actions.

What is the Persian word for map?

Tell me where it appears there.....

I wouldn't put your credibility on it though...oh, wait...maybe it's ok if you do...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #181 of 334
I'll give you a clue:

Map in Farsi is "nagsheh"

Here's another one: that word does not appear in his speech.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #182 of 334
Thread Starter 
I'll trust my citations and the experts that are referred to in them.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #183 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I'll trust my citations and the experts that are referred to in them.

You make a mistake then because that piece in WIki misquotes Bronner... he never concluded that Ahmedinejad used the word 'map' at all... he can't have done because he did not use that word and anyone who thinks he did does not understand Farsi.

But don't take my word for it..

This is a report by the Guardian's Farsi speaking Persian correspondent - and one which caused the NYT to retract their assertion that the words 'wipe off map' were used:

Quote:
This, in my view, is the crucial point and I’m glad the NYT accepts that the word “map” was not used by Ahmadinejad. (By the way, the Wikipedia entry on the controversy gets the NYT wrong, claiming falsely that Ethan Bronner “concluded that Ahmadinejad had in fact said that Israel was to be wiped off the map”.)

So Bronner NEVER concluded that.

Ahmedinejad NEVER used the word 'map' or 'wipe off'

AND he was (mis) quoting Khomeini... it wasn't his quote at all (Khomeini was talking about history by the way and time).

And then he denies it after when asked to clarify.

But don't let any of the facts bother you - why change the habit of a lifetime?

Article Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #184 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You make a mistake then because that piece in WIki misquotes Bronner... he never concluded that Ahmedinejad used the word 'map' at all... he can't have done because he did not use that word and anyone who thinks he did does not understand Farsi.

But don't take my word for it..

This is a report by the Guardian's Farsi speaking Persian correspondent - and one which caused the NYT to retract their assertion that the words 'wipe off map' were used:

So Bronner NEVER concluded that.

Ahmedinejad NEVER used the word 'map' or 'wipe off'

AND he was (mis) quoting Khomeini... it wasn't his quote at all (Khomeini was talking about history by the way and time).

And then he denies it after when asked to clarify.

But don't let any of the facts bother you - why change the habit of a lifetime?

Article Link

Keep tossing the insults out there. They won't change the strawmen that are attempting to be set up by you.

You seem fixated on map. I was noting the and citing the word WIPING.

So whether the translation be wipe away Israel or wipe Israel off the map, neither of those translations nor anything to do with wiping off/away Israel amount to anything peaceful.

Again, enjoy the strawman and let's add to it, enjoy poisoning the well. See trying to claim error here doesn't change on bit about the actions and what was communicated by them. Let's suppose we grant you the full translation as error from your own source and instead just concede the following was said in it's very passive voice from the leader of Iran..

“the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”

How again is this helping peace along? This amounts to arguing what degree of threat and passive versus active threat.

To argue it is not a threat though is just insane and not reasonable. Claiming omissions or mistranslations is just an attempt to distract from the threat. It is and was a threat though. There is no mistaking that fact.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #185 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Really I would love for you to find the quote where it has been explained to me even one time. Please do me the honors.

Segovius? Would you mind if I passed you the torch?
Quote:
First your position does not represent the U.S. position on this matter and thus your actions would not be what our government's actions would be.

Exactly. And that's one thing that's wrong with the US.
Quote:
Second, stating an eventual conclusion versus one you are going to proactively undertake is not the same so stop with the bad analogies.

Actually, I'd say they are pretty good analogies, becaue they drive the point home. Until Iran builds a nuclear weapon, they do not have a nuclear weapon. They're nowhere close to building a nuclear weapon now, and we'd know it unambiguously if they were.
Quote:
Words and actions are different things, especially to those of us who don't deal in the intent game.

"Don't deal in the intent game?" Are you kidding? Your entire premise is built on second-guessing Iran's intent!
Quote:
Iran needed no ability to refine weapons grade uranium in order to have a nuclear power program. It not only has the ability to refine to weapons grade but has announced it as well.

If they were planning on doing it secretly, do you think they would announce it? They are responding to threats with a "back off!"
Quote:
The fact that you desire to assign motive to me only hammers home the point of the intent game even more.

The fact that your entire premise is based upon second-gussing Iran's intent only hammers home the point of your hypocrisy.
Quote:
No one needs to seek the ability nor announce the ability to make a nuclear weapon just to have an energy program.

And no one needs to threaten other sovereign countries with attack when they aren't doing anything wrong.
Quote:
Iran sought and announced it because they want more than energy.

Ya think? Ya think maybe they're trying to tell the West to fuck off?
Quote:
Actions always speak louder than words and Iran's actions speak plenty.

And if the US again takes illegal unilateral action, it will speak plenty.

You might have a point if I didn't agree completely that Hillary Clinton's and Barack Obama's foreign policy is wacko right-wing.

Ooh! A violation! Let's nuke 'em before they cross against a red light!
Quote:
Also note that this isn't a court of law. Iran doesn't get probation. It doesn't get five years in the slammer. We don't have to start counting bodies before we can feel justified to act.

Yeah, there re no bodies to count yet, so let's get the game started! Dead bodies, yeah! As long as they are ragheads! ♪♫Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran!♬♪ Sounds like a catchy tune!
post #186 of 334
Iran: "Hey, guys, listen, we don't want nuclear weapons. We have a right to nuclear power."
West: "If you had the capability to enrich weapons grade uranium now, you'd have a nuclear weapon now! That's all that's stopping you!"
Iran: "We have that capability, and we still don't want a nuclear weapon."
West: "Hey!!!!! Look!!!!! Iran is capable of enriching weapons grade uranium!!!! They're building a bomb! Nuke em first!"
post #187 of 334
If we took the same approach Bush I and Clinton took toward Lybia, we would see the same result. Peace.
If we took the approach Bush II took toward Iraq, we would see the same result. Disaster.
post #188 of 334
Again:

"He's got 'em."

Where are they?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #189 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

“Just as all things will someday pass, the regime occupying Jerusalem will eventually vanish from the page of time.”

To argue that that is a threat is just insane and not reasonable.

Your interpretation is a threat simply because you WANT it to be to justify your intended actions.
post #190 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

To argue that that is a threat is just insane and not reasonable.

Your interpretation is a threat simply because you WANT it to be to justify your intended actions.

Exactly.

Even Trumpt admits there was no word 'map'.

And even Trumpt will have to admit there has been saturation coverage of the phrase 'wiped off the map'.

So (you would hope) that Trumpt will have to admit that 'wiped of map' is at best an ignorant mist-translaition and mistake and at worst a continued lie,

From here it should be a short leap to ask the question: "if the original unaltered quote IS actually a threat then why mis-tranlslate and adjust it and disseminate the false adjusted quote?"

Why not just give out the REAL original non-map quote if it is such a threat...then no-one would have anything to argue about.

They transformed into 'wipe off map' because in its original form Ahemedinejad's words were not a threat and 'wipe off map' is.

It's Iraq all over again and I think that we all know that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #191 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Segovius? Would you mind if I passed you the torch? Exactly. And that's one thing that's wrong with the US.

Actually it sounds like the brave words of a expat who would be thousands of miles from any threat.

Quote:
Actually, I'd say they are pretty good analogies, becaue they drive the point home. Until Iran builds a nuclear weapon, they do not have a nuclear weapon. They're nowhere close to building a nuclear weapon now, and we'd know it unambiguously if they were.

Do you understand that the difference in weapons grade and power generation grade uranium is only in how much it has been enriched? Sorry but your statements here seem to lack that understanding. Reactor grade uranium only needs to be enriched to 3-4%. Going beyond that has no power generating purpose. NONE. The second they claim the ability and demonstrate they have gone beyond that, which they have by the way, it is only for one purpose. You do not need weapons grade enrichment to generate power.

Quote:
"Don't deal in the intent game?" Are you kidding? Your entire premise is built on second-guessing Iran's intent!

I noted Iran's actions, not their intent. Declaring that enrichment above the level necessary for power generation is innocuous until proven otherwise when it has no legitimate purpose, isn't discussing intentions. They already have taken action by installing the centrifuges and declaring they have achieved the result.

Quote:
If they were planning on doing it secretly, do you think they would announce it? They are responding to threats with a "back off!"
The fact that your entire premise is based upon second-gussing Iran's intent only hammers home the point of your hypocrisy.

Yes they would announce it. Part of their government holding power involves fear. Iran is very close to having the religious elements tossed from power. There is a very strong rebellion in Iran that could move the country in a more modern and moderate direction. That would be impossible if the current leadership gets a nuclear weapon. Then it would become a dictatorship because no one need give up an office when they have a bomb instead of some rifles to hold that power in place. Look at North Korea for an example of this.

Quote:
And no one needs to threaten other sovereign countries with attack when they aren't doing anything wrong.
Ya think? Ya think maybe they're trying to tell the West to fuck off?

Clearly you do not understand that enrichment above a certain percent automatically classifies them as "doing (something) wrong."

Quote:
And if the US again takes illegal unilateral action, it will speak plenty.

Indeed it might get Obama reelected and given his current poll numbers you might have to start calling him a preemptive warmonger. It is only hypocrisy now that stops such claims considering his surge in Afghanistan, increased military spending, no closing of GB, etc.

Quote:
You might have a point if I didn't agree completely that Hillary Clinton's and Barack Obama's foreign policy is wacko right-wing.

Ooh! A violation! Let's nuke 'em before they cross against a red light!

Venom aside, you should do some reading on enrichment. Iran already has all the capability to prove nuclear power for it's people. Going beyond that is simply a ruse. It isn't an intention because there is no other outcome for the already undertaken actions.

Quote:
Yeah, there re no bodies to count yet, so let's get the game started! Dead bodies, yeah! As long as they are ragheads! ♪♫Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran!♬♪ Sounds like a catchy tune!

More racism (obviously to protect from racism by the wonderful reasoning here.) It isn't surprising given the source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Iran: "Hey, guys, listen, we don't want nuclear weapons. We have a right to nuclear power."
West: "If you had the capability to enrich weapons grade uranium now, you'd have a nuclear weapon now! That's all that's stopping you!"
Iran: "We have that capability, and we still don't want a nuclear weapon."
West: "Hey!!!!! Look!!!!! Iran is capable of enriching weapons grade uranium!!!! They're building a bomb! Nuke em first!"

This shows a real lack of understanding. Let's fix it.

Iran: Hey guys, even while sitting on massive oil reserves and having plenty of energy, we need nuclear power. We have a right to nuclear power.
West: No problem, the enrichment level for power generation is 4%. You can install the equipment and we will monitor the creation of 4% enrichment uranium.
Iran: Hey, btw, we forgot to mention it but we have this new enrichment facility that you didn't know about and also these new centrifuges that we installed. We'd also like to let you know we have 20% enriched uranium.
West: That is a problem. That could produce a dirty nuke and isn't necessary for power generation.
Iran: Well we think it is and we need power for our people.
West: 4% gets you power and the reality is that even with inspections happening this has occurred.
Iran: Hey 20%, it's just a nice round number for us. We announced it as such for... well because it was a happy announcement.
West: Everyone agree on sanctions yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

To argue that that is a threat is just insane and not reasonable.

Your interpretation is a threat simply because you WANT it to be to justify your intended actions.

You can argue with the made up quotes all you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Exactly.

Even Trumpt admits there was no word 'map'.
And even Trumpt will have to admit there has been saturation coverage of the phrase 'wiped off the map'.
So (you would hope) that Trumpt will have to admit that 'wiped of map' is at best an ignorant mist-translaition and mistake and at worst a continued lie,
From here it should be a short leap to ask the question: "if the original unaltered quote IS actually a threat then why mis-tranlslate and adjust it and disseminate the false adjusted quote?"
Why not just give out the REAL original non-map quote if it is such a threat...then no-one would have anything to argue about.

They transformed into 'wipe off map' because in its original form Ahemedinejad's words were not a threat and 'wipe off map' is.

It's Iraq all over again and I think that we all know that.

Enjoy your short leaps, illogical though they may be. There are about five "admits" in there all with progressive leaps from the first leap. Read your writing again. You forgive the first leap, and then each sentence is a progressive leap to get to your own position.

My reasoning stands and does not need the word map to make it stand so. Talk of wiping off/away a country, be it from a map or pages of time, or anything of that nature constitutes a threat. The backfill and spin on it won't alter that conclusion.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #192 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

My reasoning stands and does not need the word map to make it stand so. Talk of wiping off/away a country, be it from a map or pages of time, or anything of that nature constitutes a threat. The backfill and spin on it won't alter that conclusion.

Actually your reasoning does not exist...I wish it did but I fear that I might as well be talking to a Norwegian Blue Parrot. Even an ex-parrot.

The fact is:

You will be wiped from the pages of time. I must eventually also be wiped from the pages of history.

Tonton too MUST eventually be wiped from the pages of time.

It's how things are.

I'll wait docilely here for the Police while you inform them of my threats of mass-murder before I commit suicide.

While I'm waiting I shall ponder this: how is it that you know nothing of Farsi, know even less about Islam (and this 'time' motif in Ahmedinejad's speech is actually a reiteration of a key theme in Shi'i Islamic theology - one which EXCLUDES active human participation) and are not necessarily the most incisive analytical thinker - but still you see no reason whatsoever to question what is spoon-fed to you about other cultures which are not only completely alien to you but completely incomprehensible?

How is it possible to transmute alien concepts into Western ones with not even a hint of reflection?

Even Ahmedinejad does not impose his eastern framework on the West when dealing with it - he adapts to the Western view and takes it from there...you seem to assume that Western culture is not only the benchmark but is the only thing that exists...

Wait.....Hold on...I think I here the thundering tread of PC plod and the raucous splintering of wood....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #193 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You can argue with the made up quotes all you want.

You have your made-up quotes and I have mine.

Only... according to experts in the language and culture, mine more accurately reflect what was actually said and intended.
post #194 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

She had an exorcism performed on herself.
Video

This so incredibly ignorant, it's actually amazing. It's not an exorcism...it's nothing close to an exorcism. They "laid hands" and prayed. While it's not something I'm into, I understand that many people are. All of you've done here is show your open hostility to religion in general, thereby dismissing yourself and your arguments.

Quote:

Calling for war on a nation could be regarded as inciting violence,

No, it couldn't be considered that at all. Watch: "Guys, I think we should bomb Russia." See? Did I incite violence? It's called freedom of speech. In any case, it doesn't matter because she didn't call for a war.

Quote:
or at least suggest that violence will have a positive affect on the image of a sitting American president.

So what? Is she wrong? Is it wrong to opine that a President may see his popularity increase during war time? That's exactly what would happen, and you know it. Now, if she said: "I think we should attack Iran so that Obama's approval goes up"--yeah, that would be a problem. It's still not a legal problem...but a moral and political one.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #195 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

This so incredibly ignorant, it's actually amazing. It's not an exorcism...it's nothing close to an exorcism. They "laid hands" and prayed. While it's not something I'm into, I understand that many people are. All of you've done here is show your open hostility to religion in general, thereby dismissing yourself and your arguments.

It's not an exorcism true (maybe it should be though? Would be better I think...For everyone) but it is questionable, grotesque and extreme.

This is definitely under the category of bizarre behaviour. No question.

Quote:
No, it couldn't be considered that at all. Watch: "Guys, I think we should bomb Russia." See? Did I incite violence? It's called freedom of speech. In any case, it doesn't matter because she didn't call for a war.

This is incredible - you couldn't make this up..no way..give a million monkeys a million typewriters (sounds a bit like this place) and they may write Shakespeare but they wouldn't script this..

Ahmedinejad is slated for using an idiom that is quite innocent, acceptable and even, to a certain extent, conciliatory - Palin is clearly lusting for war with Iran and - although not calling for it explicitly (merely a political decision) manages to convey that such a war and invasion would be a good thing and IT'S OK!!!!

Unbelievable

Quote:
So what? Is she wrong? Is it wrong to opine that a President may see his popularity increase during war time? That's exactly what would happen, and you know it. Now, if she said: "I think we should attack Iran so that Obama's approval goes up"--yeah, that would be a problem. It's still not a legal problem...but a moral and political one.

If she's right it's pathetic.

I can't think of a civilized country where this NECESSARILY happens regardless of other factors. It implies a degree of brain-washing of the populace that is astounding....

It's also obscene. But what else can one expect...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #196 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Actually your reasoning does not exist...I wish it did but I fear that I might as well be talking to a Norwegian Blue Parrot. Even an ex-parrot.

The fact is:

You will be wiped from the pages of time. I must eventually also be wiped from the pages of history.

Tonton too MUST eventually be wiped from the pages of time.

It's how things are.

I'll wait docilely here for the Police while you inform them of my threats of mass-murder before I commit suicide.

While I'm waiting I shall ponder this: how is it that you know nothing of Farsi, know even less about Islam (and this 'time' motif in Ahmedinejad's speech is actually a reiteration of a key theme in Shi'i Islamic theology - one which EXCLUDES active human participation) and are not necessarily the most incisive analytical thinker - but still you see no reason whatsoever to question what is spoon-fed to you about other cultures which are not only completely alien to you but completely incomprehensible?

How is it possible to transmute alien concepts into Western ones with not even a hint of reflection?

Even Ahmedinejad does not impose his eastern framework on the West when dealing with it - he adapts to the Western view and takes it from there...you seem to assume that Western culture is not only the benchmark but is the only thing that exists...

Wait.....Hold on...I think I here the thundering tread of PC plod and the raucous splintering of wood....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You have your made-up quotes and I have mine.

Only... according to experts in the language and culture, mine more accurately reflect what was actually said and intended.

Again my quotes aren't made up. They are official translations. Both of you can hold me extreme for not believing that the NY Times and Federal Government are in on some grand conspiracy to gin up anger and resentment toward Iran who conveniently is enriching uranium well beyond the level necessary for power generation for no good reason. Keep believing what you want but I'm more than happy to let my credibility ride with the consensus view on this matter. Popular isn't always right and even consensus isn't always right but in this matter I'll be happy to throw my lot in with both.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #197 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Again my quotes aren't made up. They are official translations. Both of you can hold me extreme for not believing that the NY Times and Federal Government are in on some grand conspiracy to gin up anger and resentment toward Iran who conveniently is enriching uranium well beyond the level necessary for power generation for no good reason. Keep believing what you want but I'm more than happy to let my credibility ride with the consensus view on this matter. Popular isn't always right and even consensus isn't always right but in this matter I'll be happy to throw my lot in with both.

We'd expect nothing else.

No knowledge of Islam + No Knowledge of Farsi + varying degrees dislike of both + high level of cultural ignorance = defer to the opinion of people who have exactly the same qualities.

Of course it is not about which translation is correct - your one HAS to be because the entire point is to initiate more slaughter and chaos....it only serves that purpose, nothing else.

No-one should confuse it with a search for the truth or any form of justice.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #198 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

We'd expect nothing else.

No knowledge of Islam + No Knowledge of Farsi + varying degrees dislike of both + high level of cultural ignorance = defer to the opinion of people who have exactly the same qualities.

Of course it is not about which translation is correct - your one HAS to be because the entire point is to initiate more slaughter and chaos....it only serves that purpose, nothing else.

No-one should confuse it with a search for the truth or any form of justice.

Of course in your own limited reasoning, disagree always = dislike. Likewise it fits so well into the condenscending model.

He says that the Iranian government News Agency IRIB/IRNA translation is the source of the confusion:

I suppose the claim is that the Iranian government new agency has no knowledge of Islam and no knowledge of Farsi. Additionally they dislike both by your reasoning.

Likewise all the other translations don't just state it as an eventuality, but as a call to action.

Quote:
According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[13]

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly, as "be eliminated from the pages of history."[14]

According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian". Instead, "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."[15]

However again, the only reason Iran is enriching uranium beyond the level necessary for powering plants is because of my ignorance of Farsi. Those active verbs, must and be eliminated, are just part of the grand conspiracy from all corners featuring nothing but people who are ignorant in Farsi and Islam including official state news agencies.

Have your fun. Enjoy your accusations. They clearly are necessary because your argument cannot stand on its own. Again thank you for exemplifying the thread.

Sadly, we cannot let Seg be the only source of liberal condescension to fill the entire thread. We have to include others and next up on the list for today is Bill Maher who makes similar claims of ignorance about those who disagree with him.

Newsbusters.org

Quote:
But what the Democrats never understand is that Americans don't really care what position you take, just stick with one," Maher said. "Just be strong. They're not bright enough to really understand the issues. But like an animal, they can sort of sense strength or weakness. They can smell it on you."

Isn't it nice to be dim enough to just dismiss everyone who disagrees with you as ignorant and stupid? I suppose it saves one the horror of having to confront the irony of their own lack of thinking on matters.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #199 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Isn't it nice to be dim enough to just dismiss everyone who disagrees with you as ignorant and stupid? I suppose it saves one the horror of having to confront the irony of their own lack of thinking on matters.

Anyone who has ever defended Sarah Palin cannot write the sentence you just wrote and expect it to be taken seriously.
post #200 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's not an exorcism true (maybe it should be though? Would be better I think...For everyone) but it is questionable, grotesque and extreme.

This is definitely under the category of bizarre behaviour. No question.

Questionable, grotesque and Extreme? So you do not approve of praying for people. or laying hands on them while doing so? What part was grotesque or extreme, let alone questionable?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
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