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Office for Mac 2011 to feature co-authoring, ribbon interface - Page 2

post #41 of 91
2/11/10 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Been using Office 2007 on my MBP and I see no reason to upgrade to Office 2011. MS has a habit of making their Mac versions of Office less than their PC/Windows counterpart. Anyone want to venture a guess why? Personally, I like the ribbon, but many may find it an inconvenience.

The ribbon (at least some parts of it) is the one thing I enjoy about the PC version of Office. VERY quickly, I can set things that I prefer: 0.5" margins all around, font, size, landscape, etc. I could see how some people wouldn't like it, especially if you don't have time to get used to it. Unfortunately, this was the one feature left out of Mac Office 2007 (or am I wrong?)
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post #42 of 91
2/11/10 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

That said, I do NOT love the ribbon on Office 2007. IMO it's a huge impediment vs. the menu interface for those of us who are not brand new to Office (or computers in general). I'm asking that you please NOT REPLACE THE MENU! If some users want the ribbon, fine, but make it possible to at least optionally run Office the old way with the standard menu; at least Word and Excel. That is important to me and probably to most of the Office for Mac users (again, ignoring the haters who don't count as they probably aren't actually customers in the first place).

Who knows, maybe the Office for Windows team could learn a thing or two from the MacBU team?



John.B

I couldn't agree more. We use Office 2007 at work, and aside from the ribbon being (at best) non-intuitive, the new version seems to require three clicks to do almost anything that could have been done with one before. And it's not just me as a Mac user who's complaining; many of my colleagues who are staunch Windows fans don't like it either.

If the ribbon must be used, please make it an optional interface.
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post #43 of 91
2/11/10 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater017 View Post

The ribbon (at least some parts of it) is the one thing I enjoy about the PC version of Office. VERY quickly, I can set things that I prefer: 0.5" margins all around, font, size, landscape, etc. I could see how some people wouldn't like it, especially if you don't have time to get used to it. Unfortunately, this was the one feature left out of Mac Office 2007 (or am I wrong?)

Aside from the fact that there isn't any "Mac Office 2007"...
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post #44 of 91
2/11/10 at 1:55pm
All I care about is VBA support. If that comes back, I'll update.
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post #45 of 91
2/11/10 at 1:57pm
The UI actually looks quite "clean" and mac like.

Although, the things I heard about 2008 and the fact document compatibility is not such a big issue anymore makes the choice not so clear cut.
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post #46 of 91
2/11/10 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyindenver View Post

All I care about is VBA support. If that comes back, I'll update.

Looks like you will be updating then...
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post #47 of 91
2/11/10 at 2:00pm
Thanks to Exchange support in Snow Leopard, I no longer have to deal with the horrendous bloat that is Entourage.

Mail and iCal do exactly what I need and no more (and yes this is at work). So I don't really care what they do with Outlook.

PowerPoint on Mac suck no matter what so whatever.

I can only hope that MS can spruce up Word and Excel a lot speed wise. 64bit Office for Mac would be awesome as well

Ribbon? *shrug* I can live with or without it. Kinda figured it would show up on the Mac version sooner or later.
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post #48 of 91
2/11/10 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunks View Post

agreed. At work I frequently use the pc with the old version of office. The problem with the ribbon is the abstract tab headings. It's not an automatic process to identify which tab something should be under. You have to engage in this intense conceptual philosophical process of guessing where some arbitrary programmer thinks something should go. Just let us customize the toolbar so it's a single view and I can put the twenty or so commands I frequently use at a single glance.

well, you actually CAN do that already in Office 2007 and 2010, I'm sure you can do that on the Mac version too. It's very handy.
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post #49 of 91
2/11/10 at 2:05pm
If you don't like ribbon just use the toolbar palette, what's the big deal? If you minimize the ribbon it takes up about as much space as the old elements gallery toolbar. If you like ribbon then great, go ahead and use it... Now if they got rid of the menubar THAT would be something to be angry over.
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post #50 of 91
2/11/10 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bedouin View Post

Why does it take MacBU years to do anything with Office when it's their only product, and when they have probably 50+ people working for them?

They've had close to 10 years to implement Arabic/Hebrew support but haven't been bothered to. Office has always ran less reliably or as fast as its PC counterparts. Really, I don't care anymore.

I'm using Office 2004 until it won't run anymore; on my PPC Macs -- that should be never, and on my Intel Macs until Rosetta disappears (will it ever?)

My next move will be OpenOffice and/or Pages. Most likely OpenOffice since I would have complete cross-platform compatibility on not only OS X and Windows, but also my Linux machines.

I'm sure this is good news for some of you though, and I'm happy MS continues to toss you a few crumbs so you'll stay on board (not that you have a choice, since you're probably tied to it for work-related reasons).

I agree with every word you made.

MS Office for Mac is horrible, but here's to hoping this time will be different.

My primary Office Suite is IBM Lotus Symphony.

iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
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iPod nano 5th Gen 8GB Orange, iPad 3rd Gen WiFi 32GB White
MacBook Pro 15" Core i7 2.66GHz 8GB RAM 120GB Intel 320M
Mac mini Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz 8GB RAM, iPhone 5 32GB Black

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post #51 of 91
2/11/10 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishstick_kitty View Post

I couldn't agree more with this...I can NEVER find anything in word on the PC with this ribbon thing (didn't know that was what it was called)...and I've been using Word 2007 for a year now

You're just holding onto old mental patterns... you're probably over 45, I work with a few people around that age that hate the ribbon, while everybody under 30 likes it.

You should just stop thinking about features and think activity... it's pretty easy when you try. When you need to do anything that has to do with "putting stuff on the page" go to insert, when you're dealing with how the page looks, go to "page layout" and so on.. from there it's easy to visually scan the ribbon for what you need. USe it this way for 4 days, and your problems will be over.

Trust me, I do usability for a living!
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post #52 of 91
2/11/10 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwieb View Post

Menus are not being removed. Unlike Windows Office, we're keeping the familiar Mac interface with the standard menubar at the top of the screen.

VB and Macros are back in Office 2011. I blogged about this a year and a half ago: http://www.schwieb.com/blog/2008/05/...-visual-basic/

On the Mac, Ctrl-U is the keystroke to edit the current cell. F2 means "Copy" (of you ever used an old Extended Keybard II, you know why...) YOu can use Ctrl-U in all versions of Excel from 98 up!

Schwieb
MacBU Dev Lead

Schwieb,

Thanks for stopping by! I'm glad to hear about menus and VB.

What's the status of equations? Will the Mac be able to view and edit Word 2007-style equations?
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post #53 of 91
2/11/10 at 3:15pm
From the article:

Quote:
"Youve told us that working together across platforms is a priority to you and thats why we are making Office for Mac 2011 the best, most compatible productivity suite on the Mac."

ABOUT TIME. Assuming it's true...

The combination of Windows, PowerPoint, and not-quite-full compatibility between Office documents is among the biggest setbacks to civilization since the Dark Ages.
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post #54 of 91
2/11/10 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Dear MacBU:

I know there are Office for Mac haters out there (a few might show up on this very thread). But I'm not one of them. For me, Office for Mac means that I don't have to run Windows at home (like I do at work). Just so you know where I stand, I'm a big, big fan.

That said, I do NOT love the ribbon on Office 2007. IMO it's a huge impediment vs. the menu interface for those of us who are not brand new to Office (or computers in general). I'm asking that you please NOT REPLACE THE MENU! If some users want the ribbon, fine, but make it possible to at least optionally run Office the old way with the standard menu; at least Word and Excel. That is important to me and probably to most of the Office for Mac users (again, ignoring the haters who don't count as they probably aren't actually customers in the first place).

I'm totally with you. I use Word 2004, and I have over 50 tools (icons) in my toolbar in 2 rows. That takes less than 1 inch of vertical space - the rest of the space is for the document (what a concept!).

I do like all of the things Word and Excel can do, and I'll keep using the 2004 version. (I find Pages lacks too many features that I use). I won't buy a new version of Office with the ribbon interface, though. If some people like it, that's great, but give us the option to make it disappear completely, and not waste screen space.

The other thing I dislike about the ribbon is that it tries to anticipate what you want to do next, so it changes the tools that are available. This drives me crazy, because I never want to do what Micorsoft thinks I want to do. In any version of Office I immediately turn off all automatic functions, but there are still some things it does automatically that I don't want. The ribbon interface makes all that worse.
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post #55 of 91
2/11/10 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyMethod View Post

You're just holding onto old mental patterns... you're probably over 45, I work with a few people around that age that hate the ribbon, while everybody under 30 likes it.

You should just stop thinking about features and think activity... it's pretty easy when you try. When you need to do anything that has to do with "putting stuff on the page" go to insert, when you're dealing with how the page looks, go to "page layout" and so on.. from there it's easy to visually scan the ribbon for what you need. USe it this way for 4 days, and your problems will be over.

Trust me, I do usability for a living!

The problem is nobody can stop thinking "WHY did MS do it?". The ribbon is a classic solution looking for a problem; nobody asked for it or wanted it, but we got it anyway.

Suppose Adobe redid PhotoShop with a ribbon (for no other reason than to market a new version). The productivity loss would be tremendous as the industry had to re-learn what previously worked. I can't imagine what the training costs would be. Yet MS does this with Office, and anyone who resists gets labeled "old school:.
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post #56 of 91
2/11/10 at 3:30pm
Since there isn't enough information about the new product here to make any kind of intelligent comment, I will just say that since Mac Office today is basically a giant steaming pile of poop ... almost anything they do will be a welcome change.

I'm more enthused by the news that they are thinking of making a version for the iPad. To do that, they would have to rethink every single thing about Office as a product, and that can only be a good thing. Maybe playing around in the iPad sandbox will give these people the chutzpah necessary to actually make some changes, instead of just bolting on this years gee-gaw and calling it a day.
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post #57 of 91
2/11/10 at 4:01pm
Office 2008 for Mac is a mess. I still use Office 2004 mainly for Visual Basic. Glad to see Visual Basic in 2011 though.
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post #58 of 91
2/11/10 at 4:11pm
The application Microsoft that should develop for the iPad is OneNote. It's marvelous for taking notes and would fit perfectly with the portability of iPads. It's also the only application that Windows has that I would like to see running on Macs. Until it runs on my MacBook, I'll settle for it on an iPad.
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post #59 of 91
2/11/10 at 4:11pm
Microsoft Windows is a necessity to me for 2 reasons. First, the real Microsoft Office is on Windows. (Want to say I'm wrong? Port the Windows version to the Mac. Just a straight port. It would be fine).

Second, SAS needs windows. I do own Mac Office 2008. Looks pretty, but lacks features, and is unstable. And Excel calculates slowly and lacks features.

In the corporate world, only Windows Office will do. Mac Office is not the same thing. It can't survive a real beating the way WinOffice does.
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post #60 of 91
2/11/10 at 4:20pm
Office For Mac 2011: Mac Toolbar or MS "Ribbon"? We can't decide so we're putting BOTH in! Yay!

And look at all the vertical space you just lost, MacBook users.

Oh, and pay close attention to the Mac Toolbar: Microsoft STILL USES A FLOPPY DISK ICON. Do teens even know what a floppy disk IS? Any guesses on what clicking this icon does? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

The more time goes on, the more I'm convinced that the sole reason Office still exists is that Office still exists.

There's so much cruft in the "Microsoft" part of Word that should be up in the "Cocoa" part of Word that it's embarrassing.

And tragic. Users are losing so much screen real estate because MS insists that users have a smooth transitional experience between Windows and Mac versions of Microsoft apps than they do between different Macintosh apps.

In other words, they put themselves before their users, something that NO good Mac developer does.

Users always are the top priority for Mac developers. Ironically, WordPerfect learned this extraordinarily well in going from their original port of WP 1.0 to 3.0.

Yet more corroboration that Office still exists solely because it still exists.
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post #61 of 91
2/11/10 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknick View Post

PowerPoint on Mac suck no matter what so whatever.

Yes, but it sucks on the PC too. Things that can get done with a couple of clicks in Keynote takes several visits to dialog boxes in PP. The last time I had to collaborate with someone using PowerPoint, I felt like I was beating my head against the wall trying to force it to do what I wanted. Keynote is a joy to use, and in many ways is a far more capable product - if Apple could find a way to give it access to live data, it'd be just about perfect.
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post #62 of 91
2/11/10 at 4:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyMethod View Post

You're just holding onto old mental patterns... you're probably over 45, I work with a few people around that age that hate the ribbon, while everybody under 30 likes it.

You should just stop thinking about features and think activity... it's pretty easy when you try. When you need to do anything that has to do with "putting stuff on the page" go to insert, when you're dealing with how the page looks, go to "page layout" and so on.. from there it's easy to visually scan the ribbon for what you need. USe it this way for 4 days, and your problems will be over.

Trust me, I do usability for a living!

It's not a matter of the ribbon being there or not. It's a matter of the value of the ribbon in the context of everything else, of Microsoft trying to ride Roman on who's more important, MS or the user (I'm a UI/UX developer myself).

It's all that visual clutter, it's the vertical space taken up in a world where horizontal space is becoming cheaper and cheaper all the time. And, mind you, vertical space is the far more important dimension in a word processing app.

As for being over 45 and under 30....a floppy disc icon in the toolbar?

I think that says it all for Microsoft and their so-called willingness to throw away what needs throwing away in order to create the best possible usability.
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post #63 of 91
2/11/10 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Dear MacBU:

I know there are Office for Mac haters out there (a few might show up on this very thread). But I'm not one of them. For me, Office for Mac means that I don't have to run Windows at home (like I do at work). Just so you know where I stand, I'm a big, big fan.

That said, I do NOT love the ribbon on Office 2007. IMO it's a huge impediment vs. the menu interface for those of us who are not brand new to Office (or computers in general). I'm asking that you please NOT REPLACE THE MENU! If some users want the ribbon, fine, but make it possible to at least optionally run Office the old way with the standard menu; at least Word and Excel. That is important to me and probably to most of the Office for Mac users (again, ignoring the haters who don't count as they probably aren't actually customers in the first place).

Who knows, maybe the Office for Windows team could learn a thing or two from the MacBU team?

The only other things I need would be to have macro support added back in Excel, and some way to edit the current cell via a keyboard shortcut in Excel (like F2 in Mac for Windows).

Thanks for your consideration.

John.B

I totally agree about the ribbon. Our office just got "upgraded" to Office 2007, and most of us feel like that sick old Helen Keller joke: How did Helen Keller's parents punish her? By rearranging all of the furniture and covering the front door with extra door knobs that don't work...

for 15 bucks you can download a plugin that puts back in the strip that says, "File, Edit..

http://www.ubit.ch/software/ubitmenu-languages/

out IT guy told me about it and then looked the other way...
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post #64 of 91
2/11/10 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 512ke View Post

It feels like every iteration of MS office for Mac just gets worse. Each new version is slower to load than the last one, less responsible, and more complicated -- without being more capable.

Why Bother. Who wants to feed Steve Ballmer more wasted money. Use iWork and avoid the pack of thieves! And why would you buy a "downgrade" of Office, which every new version seems to be! I still have a ten year old version that works fine anyway. I always tell people to download Open products if they don't want to spend money for iWork.
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post #65 of 91
2/11/10 at 5:48pm


The ribbon on Office 2007 is ugly, buggy, and not user friendly.
the rev
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the rev
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post #66 of 91
2/11/10 at 5:53pm
No thanks. I appreciate some need it but TG I have moved on. I started with Visicalc so I have been around the block and earned my retirement to iWorks and its offspring.
Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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Been using Apples since 1978 and Macs since 1984
Long on AAPL so biased. Strong advocate for separation of technology and politics on AI.
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post #67 of 91
2/11/10 at 6:36pm
It's about f**g time! I've been waiting for these features for years! Seriously Microsoft couldn't have just made the version for Windows and Mac the same since the beginning? It's as if they were purposely making an inferior product for Mac users so that less business users would adopt a Mac. One thing that the article didn't mention was whether it had the ability to compress pictures. For example, if you want to put a large picture into PowerPoint you have to resize it first using another program, otherwise you'll end up with a 20MB+ file that is impossible to email. In the Windows version you could compress and crop every picture within the file with a couple of clicks. I'm also not a big fan of Office 2007 ribbon UI, it needs the ability to customize and rearrange everything like the 2003 version. Anyway thanks for finally changing it. Now I can happily throw away my Windows machine completely
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post #68 of 91
2/11/10 at 6:57pm
As someone who writes for a living, Word 2004 has proven a great tool. However, the whole Ribbon thing is a waste of precious screen space. Definitely not a step forward.
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post #69 of 91
2/11/10 at 6:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Biscuits View Post

As for being over 45 and under 30....a floppy disc icon in the toolbar?

Might as well have a cassette tape icon.

Quote:
I think that says it all for Microsoft and their so-called willingness to throw away what needs throwing away in order to create the best possible usability.

Creating the BEST possible usability would mean throwing everything completely away and starting over. Unfortunately, as long as the money keeps rolling in the restart isn't going to happen.
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post #70 of 91
2/11/10 at 7:38pm
I thought Microsoft did a decent job on Office 2008. I enjoy using Word more then Pages [although Pages has some nice templates]. However, Office needs to bring back macro support. We use Office for compatibility.

Keynote kicks butt though.
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post #71 of 91
2/11/10 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacThespian View Post

If the ribbon must be used, please make it an optional interface.

In Mac Office 2011 the ribbon replaces the format palette.

Schwieb also said this at Ars' Mac forum: "Outlook is a Cocoa app. The other apps are still predominately Carbon, but pretty much all new UI pieces are Cocoa within the Carbon apps."

20" iMac C2D/2.4GHz 3GB RAM 10.6.5 (10H574) - 15" iMac G4/800MHz 1GB
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20" iMac C2D/2.4GHz 3GB RAM 10.6.5 (10H574) - 15" iMac G4/800MHz 1GB
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post #72 of 91
2/11/10 at 8:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyMethod View Post

You're just holding onto old mental patterns... you're probably over 45, I work with a few people around that age that hate the ribbon, while everybody under 30 likes it.

You should just stop thinking about features and think activity... it's pretty easy when you try. When you need to do anything that has to do with "putting stuff on the page" go to insert, when you're dealing with how the page looks, go to "page layout" and so on.. from there it's easy to visually scan the ribbon for what you need. USe it this way for 4 days, and your problems will be over.

Trust me, I do usability for a living!

I happen to be 45 my self. I have used everything from command line DOS in the 80s and Great GUIs in the 90s. Excel, Word, Borland Quatto, Lotus 123 and Ami, etc etc. This is the first time i seem a business program go backwards in evolution.

I can say our company of 650 will continue to use Office 2003 because Office 2007 has become unsuable. The same is true with our corporate auditors E&Y, nearly 144,000 employees worldwide, will not be using 2007. From what the EY Staff tell me seems their other clients will not be migrating to 2007 either. So they are pleased not migrate to 2007. Intel publicaly stated they will not be using Office 2007. I checked with my other beancounter friends and 2003 is their corporate choice of office suites. So pretty much every company in the Sillicon Valley and its global affilates are not using 2007. Our managment has not mandated it, they think it sucks as well, our IT isnt purchasing it.

Trust me I HAVE done it for a living! I am a Financial Controller who used spreadsheets, wordprocessors, etc etc for over 2 decades.

Yes we have a voice when it comes to corporate spending.. and its stinging MS in the A$$.
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post #73 of 91
2/11/10 at 8:30pm
Though out the decades Apples philosophy regarding its products, no need for manuals. Even today the Apple Retail store has that philosophy in practice that anyone can walk in and start using the products with little or now training. Its right in front of you.

The ribbon should not be an exception to the golden rule. IT MUST GO! PC OR MAC!
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post #74 of 91
2/11/10 at 10:16pm
I'm just waiting for 64 bits iWork 10. Fortunately, I don't need all the fancy stuff like macros or virtual basic or complicated equations --I'm still using iWork 08 and happy with it. Most of the colleagues I work with --interchanging documents at a daily basis--, who use windows and office and pc's, don't even know I don't have Word neither Excel.
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post #75 of 91
2/11/10 at 10:57pm
I always thought the 'floppy' in Office was a zip disk. Not that it makes things better.
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post #76 of 91
2/11/10 at 10:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Biscuits View Post

And look at all the vertical space you just lost, MacBook users.

This. MS seems to think that Widescreen monitors were never invented.

I use iWork because I can hide all the crap at the top and leave only the menu bar, leaving more of the actual document, which should be the MAIN focus of the interface, viewable with less scrolling. Office '08 pissed me off because you couldn't turn off the stupid gallery (never used it) completely. Valuable real estate, lost.

Just look at that screenshot--all that wasted grey space! Put the ribbon there! I'm all for making features more discoverable, but not if it makes the main focus of the program--your document--harder to navigate.
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post #77 of 91
2/12/10 at 3:48am
When thought of from a touch UI POV then the ribbon makes sense. Contextual, fingertip size icons.

But yes, ATM it is sometimes painful, and screen-consuming.
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post #78 of 91
2/12/10 at 7:00am
Aaaagrgrhrgrgrgrghhhghh!!! F*** the ribbon! It has reduced my productivity by at least 30%. I'm a keyboard-guy, and the ribbon forces you to click for some functions. I'd rather search through eight text-descriptive menus than hover over 80 nondescript buttons to find what I'm looking for. Damnit anyway!

VB is the only plus here.

I gotta be honest, though. I haven't used Office for Mac in probably 5 years. I'd rather just bring work home to my PC than to my Mac just so my "work spaces" are consistent.

-Clive
My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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post #79 of 91
2/12/10 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser View Post

Ever hear of things that are included in the Windows version of Office, like Publisher? Access? And they are *where?* in the Mac version?

OMG, I think I'm gonna vomit. Really? Someone's asking for Publisher on a Mac? Really? Why? Because PageMaker 1.03 won't install and run on a new iMac? Because Pages costs too much? Because Word is too hard to learn?

Next up after the break: We'll take calls from the 3 users demanding FrontPage and ImageComposer be released for Macintosh.

Stay tuned...

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post #80 of 91
2/12/10 at 12:56pm
Where is MS Paint for the Mac??
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