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Why you should be proud to send your kids to Berkeley...

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 
if you beleive that morality is what you make it.

<a href="http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=EDU-SEXCLASS-02-17-02&cat=LS" target="_blank">Berkeley sexuality class under fire</a>

If anyone defends this as good education and worth college credit I will likely have a violent bowel upheaval.

Read the article, it will explain everything. :eek:
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #2 of 63
HAHA!
Dude, Im transfering there immediatly. Man, I have a friend there who must be having a blast.
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #3 of 63
I'm sorry, but I just had to laugh at the absurdity of some of these quotes.
[quote]The University of California at Berkeley has suspended a male sexuality class after the campus newspaper published allegations that students watched their instructor have sex at a strip club and participated in an orgy at an extracurricular party.
...
"Those sorts of activities are not part of the approved course curriculum," Felde said.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Christy Kovacs, a Berkeley freshman who was enrolled in the male sexuality course last semester for two units, said in an interview that some students in the class were involved in an orgy at a party. The party was held to introduce students from other sections of the course and was not mandatory, Kovacs said.<hr></blockquote>
Not mandatory? Was it extra credit?
[quote]Some partygoers also took Polaroid pictures of their genitalia, to show that their bodies were not disgusting...<hr></blockquote>
I would think that would be exactly the way to make them look disgusting.
[quote]Kovacs said the class was a positive experience and should not be portrayed in a "scandalous, negative light."<hr></blockquote>
post #4 of 63
That cop course sounds intresting...
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post #5 of 63
[quote]"Caren Kaplan, chairwoman of the Woman's Studies Department and sponsor of the sexuality classes, had reviewed the course description for the male sexuality course but was not provided with a detailed course syllabus..."<hr></blockquote>

This is what struck me as funniest. It makes it sound as though, IF those activities were planned for in the syllabus, then they're okay. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

Ha ha. The syllabus. (those of you who've been involved in higher academia will appreciate that comment, even in its simplicity)
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post #6 of 63
/me waits for Eugene to comment on this
post #7 of 63
Hmm, wow, a female sexuality course. If I wasn't going to be graduated this semester...
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post #8 of 63
Yay! I am actually considering moving to the States to study in the next couple of years. Now guess which place just moved to the top of my list?

J :cool:
post #9 of 63
Never saw anything like that when I was at Berkeley (mid 1970s). I wonder if I'd find those courses if I could find my old catalogs ...

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Skipjack ]</p>
post #10 of 63
Ya know after watching "Girls Gone Wild - Campus Adventures" or something like that and now I hear this...

I have to go to college there

------------------------------------
E PLURIBUS UNIX


[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
post #11 of 63
What shocks me are people like NohaJ who count this as reason NOT to go to Berklely.
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #12 of 63
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by The Toolboi:
<strong>What shocks me are people like NohaJ who count this as reason NOT to go to Berklely. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Once again, thank you for proving my point about the moral drift in America today, and the world in general.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #13 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

Once again, thank you for proving my point about the moral drift in America today, and the world in general. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Hey NoahJ wanna do a three way for extra credit
post #14 of 63
Like I said some weeks back...

Berkeley is a living paradox: no community in America has a higher cummulative IQ - and at the same time - the complete lack of common sense that seems to dominate their politics, education and societal values.

Couldn't pay me to live there.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
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post #15 of 63
I kind of doubt the credability of the article since the only source was the school newspaper. Pretty funny stuff, however I doubt that it is true. Even those wacky Californians have some standards...
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post #16 of 63
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

Hey NoahJ wanna do a three way for extra credit </strong><hr></blockquote>

You big tease...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #17 of 63
What do you mean? They quoted several students.
post #18 of 63
Maybe its true... but I find it VERY hard to believe.
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post #19 of 63
Thread Starter 
For those who doubt the authenticity here is another article.

<a href="http://www.dailycal.org/article.asp?id=7723" target="_blank">http://www.dailycal.org/article.asp?id=7723</a>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #20 of 63
Meanwhile, down the road a few miles at Cal State Hayward you can learn about "<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/02/18/MN219777.DTL" target="_blank">The Sexuality of Terrorism</a>."

[quote] SCHOOL NEWS: Students at Cal State Hayward are getting quite an eyeful this quarter with an online course titled -- we kid you not -- "The Sexuality of Terrorism."

The professor is feminist and activist Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, who makes no bones about her views that:

A) "Terrorism is on a continuum that starts with battery in the home and up to and including organized militaries that run on taxpayer money."

And . . .

B) "The U.S. has participated in some of the most horrible terrorism in history" (everything from Vietnam to the Contra war).

As for how Sept. 11 and its aftermath fit into all this?

Dunbar-Ortiz says it's all part of the "organized violence" that's an "extension of the patriarchal family, where violence against women takes place. "

Whatever the case, the San Francisco professor is about to get her first midterm Wednesday night when she's grilled on Fox News TV by talk show deans Hannity and Colmes.

And it probably won't be pretty.
<hr></blockquote>
post #21 of 63
I agree that the events outside of the classroom setting discussed in the article seem, rather, um, inappropriate (to use a euphemism), but the in classroom content actually sounds like a very worthwhile class. For example:
[quote] Bach said one of his favorite parts of the class is the week when the class discusses violence in relationships because it gives students the chance to talk about times when they were hurt.
<hr></blockquote> and [quote] In the female sexuality course, students make presentations about negative portrayals of women in the media and discuss stereotypes placed upon different groups of women.
<hr></blockquote> Sexuality classes are not unique to Cal either. I know UCSB offers one as well, and it's one of the most popular classes on campus.


Additionally, I have to agree with Toolboi that this one class is not at all a reason to not attend UC Berkeley. Cal is one of the elite universities in the nation (and I'm bitter because they rejected me). NoahJ, morals are all relative. That's why we try to not let the government legislate morality.
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post #22 of 63
From agent302
[quote] NoahJ, morals are all relative. <hr></blockquote>

So I can kill you?
post #23 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>NoahJ, morals are all relative. That's why we try to not let the government legislate morality.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have been assimilated agent302. There are absolutes in this world. It is immoral and wrong to have sex with a child. For example.
post #24 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

You have been assimilated agent302. There are absolutes in this world. It is immoral and wrong to have sex with a child. For example.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have I? I wasn't aware of a Borg cube anywhere near here. And, while in our society it is considered immoral to have sex with someone younger, that's not necessarily the case in all societies. In Greek society, for example, one of the ideal relationships was a 30ish male and a teenage boy (both homosexual and pedophilic). I'm not saying that I agree with what I just suggested. I don't. But it's important to recognize that morality is merely a social construction to prevent absolute chaos. In general, morality is beneficial to people because, if we all went around killing each other, society wouldn't progress at all.

To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.
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post #25 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

Have I? I wasn't aware of a Borg cube anywhere near here. And, while in our society it is considered immoral to have sex with someone younger, that's not necessarily the case in all societies. In Greek society, for example, one of the ideal relationships was a 30ish male and a teenage boy (both homosexual and pedophilic). I'm not saying that I agree with what I just suggested. I don't. But it's important to recognize that morality is merely a social construction to prevent absolute chaos. In general, morality is beneficial to people because, if we all went around killing each other, society wouldn't progress at all.

To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.</strong><hr></blockquote>


No. It was wrong for those older men to rape those younger boys. It is wrong. Get it? Some things are wrong. It's true.
post #26 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>


No. It was wrong for those older men to rape those younger boys. It is wrong. Get it? Some things are wrong. It's true.</strong><hr></blockquote>

By whose standards? Yours, not theirs. Get it out of your head that you set the standard for everyone's action. We are all autonomous beings, we all make our own decisions.
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post #27 of 63
Older men? younger boys? rape?
huh?

sounds lie it would be pretty wrong if it happened. Strange, though, that Plato and Socrates and their peers had sex with younger men almost boys and nobody gets all up in arms about it.


As for this class, sounds like the "orgy" was a bad idea, but the genital photos is just funny.

Sex is fine and good and many people have a very real dificult time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Classes like this can be a good thing when done right. Just sounds like there was a bad professor or two . . . . ad sounds like the source funnelling all the info has a very anti-sex, anti-body agenda.

as for the sex in terrorism class: her anti US stuff is probably the usual reactionary crap. But, it is clear that with the violent form of terrorism that we have seen recently, that there is some deep seated psycho-sexual stuff at the root: its not just a coincedence that the surrounding culture of the Taliban had women practically as slaves and were afraid to death of them, afraid of"dirty pergnant" women.

So a class that is open to sexuallity might actually release terroristic tendencies in us all
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post #28 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>Older men? younger boys? rape?
huh?

sounds lie it would be pretty wrong if it happened. Strange, though, that Plato and Socrates and their peers had sex with younger men almost boys and nobody gets all up in arms about it.


As for this class, sounds like the "orgy" was a bad idea, but the genital photos is just funny.

Sex is fine and good and many people have a very real dificult time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Classes like this can be a good thing when done right. Just sounds like there was a bad professor or two . . . . ad sounds like the source funnelling all the info has a very anti-sex, anti-body agenda.

as for the sex in terrorism class: her anti US stuff is probably the usual reactionary crap. But, it is clear that with the violent form of terrorism that we have seen recently, that there is some deep seated psycho-sexual stuff at the root: its not just a coincedence that the surrounding culture of the Taliban had women practically as slaves and were afraid to death of them, afraid of"dirty pergnant" women.

So a class that is open to sexuallity might actually release terroristic tendencies in us all </strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you! Finally, someone thinks before they post.
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post #29 of 63
I see your point. The next time a see a boy being raped I'll tell him that.
post #30 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>I see your point. The next time a see a boy being raped I'll tell him that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I give up. You're a ****ing idiot who apparently can't read or make an original thought.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</p>
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post #31 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

I give up. You're a ****ing idiot who apparently can't read or make an original thought.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I might say the same for you. If accepting rape as being "okay for them" means I have to be "original" I'm happy to be unoriginal.

Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.
post #32 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

I might say the same for you. If accepting rape as being "okay for them" means I have to be "original" I'm happy to be unoriginal.

Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Your blatant and callous use of the word rape misses the point of what I am saying. While our society (myself included) is horrified by child molestation, teenage-adult relationships were a norm in ancient Greece. That doesn't make them wrong to their society. Societies change, so do moral claims.

Remember. No things are absolute. Not even science.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</p>
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post #33 of 63
No. Because 1) She's no under age and 2) she consents after much nagging.
post #34 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>No. Because 1) She's no under age and 2) she consents after much nagging.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And what is age but an arbitrary measure of time?
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post #35 of 63
Oh well see it's all relative. It may be okay for your to butt **** a 2 year old and that may be wrong for me. In China it's common to turn 13 year old girls into sex slaves. But that's their culture. So it's okay for them. In Russia kiddy porn is all the rage.
post #36 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Oh well see it's all relative. It may be okay for your to butt **** a 2 year old and that may be wrong for me. In China it's common to turn 13 year old girls into sex slaves. But that's their culture. So it's okay for them. In Russia kiddy porn is all the rage.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How many times can you read something and not get the point?
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post #37 of 63
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>&lt;What he edited out&gt;Well, given your jargon, do you rape your wife at night?&lt;/what he edited out&gt;


Your blatant and callous use of the word rape misses the point of what I am saying. While our society (myself included) is horrified by child molestation, teenage-adult relationships were a norm in ancient Greece. That doesn't make them wrong to their society. Societies change, so do moral claims.

Remember. No things are absolute. Not even science.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agent302, what you seem to be missing here is that just because a society says that things are ok, does not make them OK. Was it OK for the Romans to throw the Christians to the Lions and then watch it like a sport? Was it ok for the south to own slaves? Was the Final Solution ok? Where is te line drawn? (I intentionally drew this closer to home to see where you draw the line) Your argument is total BS. All of these things were accepted as ok by those performing them. Some were not socially accepted, but in their society it was ok. Just because the Greeks are the NAMBLA poster child does not mean it is or even was ok.

Then to try to draw somebodys wife into it and take a consentual relationship between tow adults and try to turn it into rape is horrible. It seems that you have been assimilated. You sound just like the feminist agenda.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #38 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

How many times can you read something and not get the point?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ha ha ha you are too funny. You keep saying I don't get your point and I would say it's you that doesn't get mine. I think I'm correct though.

Some things are wrong agent302.
post #39 of 63
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK Scott - can you prove this? Can you prove what is wrong and what isn't? Where do the morals come from? I have my own ideas about this, but I'm curious where you think they come from.
post #40 of 63
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I said no such thing. I said it should make you proud to have your children attending there if you beleive morals are relative, which you ost certainly do.

Berkeley is a wonderful place to learn if you don't get all caught up in the hippie culture that thrives there. And as for any good things that came out of that class, if I taught math and I was able to make anyone understand basic math priciples and learn how to do long multiplication in their heads but I taught that 2+2=5 and 2x2=6 but I was consistant about it. They would get the "right" answer consistantly. Does that make my class good? Doesn't stand up in the real worl. In my opinion any good that may have been done in the class on paper is destroyed by the teacher taking the class on a field trip to watch him have sex with a woman and to participate in an orgy. (Extra credit, anyone want to go? *entire class with raging hormines* YEAH!!!) Who is to say what they even really taught in this class. Just because the syllabus says that was what was taught does not mean it was. His entire course is suspect to me. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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