MWC: Microsoft unveils Windows Phone 7 Series - Page 10

It's based on WinCE but with the UI thrown out, so existing CE apps aren't compatible. Though I'd be amazed if they changed much of the core CE APIs.

New UIs will need to be WPF or (again I'm presuming here - based on XNA compatibility) a DirectX subset.

So although it's new it will still be accessible to developers who have had exposure to Windows development which, to me at least, seems to be just about everyone.

You're not going to see a thousand fart apps on day one, but they will come with time.

That said, based on the Win Phones familiarity with DirectX and Microsoft's relationships with the game development studios I wouldn't be surprised to see some big name games pop up early in its life cycle along with a lot of ports from the independents on Xbox Live.

In any case we're in for an interesting year!

I was mistaken. Thanks for the correction. I like being wrong - it's a great way to learn new stuff.

Got a cite for this outlandish claim?

I have read from various news sources that MS is willing to allow for a slide-out keyboard, but not the full-body BB form-factor. And I believe that it was mentioned in passing during that 22 minute walkthrough video too.

Understanding the local market is exactly the point. Lets say the local OEM knows that certain form-factors sell really well in their market area. They'll have the freedom to create those form-factor with the WP7S OS. They'll all have the same minimal hardware bar to meet and the same software inside. If one model has a slide-out keyboard and the other is touchscreen only, then they've provided options for both segments of the market for the same OS experience. Apple unified software, with Android form-factor options.

Which part?

it's based no WinCE.

Does anyone else wonder how she doesn't get run over? Just walking down the street, listening to music, surfing her phone. Oh yeah she is getting hit.

You mean 'on WinCE' right?

http://www.google.com/

Yes. Sorry for the typo. Do you have an cite for your claim that it is based on WinCE?

no one knows if its based on CE unless you work on the Microsoft team that developed this new software because none have spoken on this.

[CENTER]Yes, I certainly have explained my personal situation numerous times:

My use of center justification is,

"Before I retired from the USAF I had an accident involving a hydrazine tank explosion that seriously impaired my vision. I center my posts so that they're easier for me to identify in a sea of (otherwise) blurry scribbles."

It's the manner in which I 'work around' my disability with the 'tools' made available to me.

If this forum is not receptive to such situations, then please just say so by adding it to the official forum rules, and I will act accordingly.

Additionally: If you, or anyone else, find my posts 'allegedly' difficult to read, then the most reasonable thing to do is PM me so that I can explain, and/or utilize the forum's [IGNORE] list.

Posting these kinds of inquiries/interrogations within the body of a thread is what truly results in disruptions, not anything having to do with topography/text formatting.

Note: This is the last I will ever post relating to this matter in the public section.

It's Really That Simple.[/CENTER]

No one has spoken on the record. It has been commonly assumed and MS has not spoken out against this assumption (not that they have to).

Given the resources MS has poured into WinCE over the years and the leaked information about Chelan, it is a fairly safe assumption that Windows Phone 7 Series will be based on a version of WinCE. Engadget seems to believe it will be WinCE 6.0, whereas other think it will be called WinCE 7.0.

You are right, no one knows for sure, but it would be a gigantic change in direction for MS to opt for an entirely new kernel that would further balkanize their offerings. The fact that existing apps will have to be reworked for the new OS will be a big enough challenge for developers.

I sympathize, but surely you are able to read left-justified posts somewhat well, for otherwise you would not be posting much at all!?

wouldn't the find function on your browser be just as fast, or faster, way to find your posts without being so exasperating to others?

If that design makes sense to anyone else out here please explain it.

I would never buy a product that intentionally designed the screen with intent to FORCE me to swipe and scroll across a "page" that exceeds the size of my screen like that.

I was almost insulted at the way the glossies were positioned the phone across the real estate. Is this supposed to be enticing?

Completely erase in your mind WHO designed this and just look at how comical this UI design is. Laughable. This HAS to be a joke.

[CENTER]Think of it this way:

The TEXT in this GUI (much as it appears on the ZUNE HD) is made larger so as to represent information that is without boundaries i.e. endlessly expansive data/media/possibilities.

The text runs off on the screen in a manner that incites/invites the users to embark upon further exploration rather than feel confined/limited to whatever is currently displayed on the screen.

Makes Sense... Yes?[/CENTER]

I personally think this is a pretty ingeneous way of displaying more information than a pocketable screen size allows. One wide band of all the information related to the subject (apps, pictures, messages, etc), divided up into screen-width chucks that's easy to read an manage.

It's an extension and improvement of what the Android home screen is right now. 3, 5, or even 7 screens side-by-side with all the information that you want. As you scroll to the left or right, you'll notice the background shifts slightly in that direction.

I've always figured MS had something up their sleeves when they used this style on the ZHD. Like you said, it makes me want to scroll in the direction the text is cut off in to see what's there when it becomes revealed.

have to wait and see how consumers actually respond to this WinMo 7 approach. is this "layers" UI approach optional? among many other things, can't tell yet how much users can customize it.

the popularity of the alternative Apple approach is proven however. you can load up your first-look home screen with 20 icons of anything you choose - apps, one touch phone number dialing, direct web page links. we all typically pick our most frequently used items, whatever category. and you can group stuff any way that makes sense to you on each of the other screens too.

moreover, some prefer the omnibus apps that aggregate multiple services' feeds into a single display. while others prefer the opposite, segregated apps that feature just one service but with more functions/depth. both approaches are valid, and there are iPhone apps for both. how those options work on WinMo 7 remains to be seen.

of course, both Google and MS want to sweep everyone into depending exclusively on their proprietary packages of cloud services. so they both will make those respectively uber-convenient to access as a single aggregated portal in their UI. whereas Apple has never really pushed MobileMe, and it is just a group of handy but non-essential logistical add-on apps with no social stuff at all. Apple is into media, not social. so they push you into iTunes instead. not the same.

so the head-on battle here really will be WinMo 7 vs. Android - cloud vs. cloud. both have varying strong zones and weak areas/omissions now. this will be interesting. bloodbath.

btw, given that Android is "free" and has a big head start, it is hard to envision how MS can charge more than a token amount - $1? - for WinMo 7 licenses.

The Wholesale Applications Community announced yesterday has to go down as the smartphone joke of the year. all the telcos are of course terrified of becoming nothing but "dumb pipes" losing all their lucrative over-priced mobile phone thingee sales. so they team up with the flailing Samsung and the failing Sony-Erricsson to create a new kind of app that they can still control/sell directly. yeah, sure, we need that!

missing of course are all the big guys with their own platforms/stores - Apple, RIM , Nokia, Google, MS. that must leave about - um - 5% of the market? or less ... i'm sure developers can't wait.

Samsung can afford this wild goose chase, but Sony can't. it's only a matter of time until the Sony-Erricson JV dissolves in a sea of red ink. and Samsung picks up the pieces?

Wait you don't like spending $1 per wallpaper or ringtone? And paying to get pics off your phone? What a weirdo! Nah, Ma Bell knows what's best so sit down and shut up. And you'll like it, too. Oh and would you care to buy another $20 phone charger with a differently-shaped friggin' end of the cord so you can't use it in any other phone, including all of our own other models?

Yeah I'm excited, it certainly does look like in the long term carriers are headed in the direction of being a dumb pipe like an ISP. What they should have always been. Thanks Apple and Google!

It all comes down to execution. This could be a really nice product or a total dud. We'll have to wait and see.

excuse me, but you're not speakin' American real well there, boy.

I gave you a cite! http://www.google.com/

Or you can feel free to just cite me.

It doesn't work that way, nor is it so simple. It's up to you to back up your own claims. We haven't seen the articles you've seen, you have a better idea of what you're looking for than we would. Usually, it's up to the person that makes an positive claim of a fact to back it up when asked.

Also, I haven't seen anything that says for sure, it's all speculation so far that I have found, or based on unnamed sources. Reasonable speculation, mind you, but not something that justifies an absolute statement.

Windows Mobile 7 and Copy-and-Paste
Daring Fireball 10-02-16 11:02 PM John Gruber http://daringfireball.net/

Greg Kumparek:

As far as I could tell, there is currently no copy/paste functionality. We were told that developers will hear more about that at Microsofts MIX conference next month, though it was implied that it would be about why copy and paste wont be necessary rather than when it was coming.

How 2007.

Snore...

You do know the guy that is demanding proof is the same one that thinks Microsoft is a major owner of Apple? My idea was that some research would have done him good.

In any case, Charlie Kindel responded via twitter to a question about the origin of WP7S and said it's a new version of CE.

That said, I don't understand the resistance to the idea that WP7S is based on a new version of Windows CE! I'd love to hear some other alternative ideas of where people think the WP7S OS came from!

According to http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/15/w...s-playing-to/:

Carrier partnerships are far and wide, including AT&T, Deutsche Telekom AG, Orange, SFR, Sprint, Telecom Italia, Telefónica, Telstra, T-Mobile USA, Verizon Wireless and Vodafone, while hardware partners include Dell, Garmin-Asus, HTC, HP, LG, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, Toshiba and Qualcomm.

If true, that is very nice starting lineup, particularly 9 months before actual launch. Of course, we'll see when the time comes.

You are seeing things too black and white.

I have an iPhone, and when the time for update comes I'll consider everything available to find what works best for me. That is because I got iPhone as it was best suited for my needs, not because it is iPhone.

Likewise, my wife.

Likewise, my mate.

Of course we might end with iPhone 4 or 5 if we decide it is the best for us, but we will consider others without bias.

Couple of our clients got iPhone because we told them they are simple to use and have everything they need. What they will take next time depends on what we will recommend them. They are middle-age, down to Earth people who don't get Apple hype and don't even know who Steve Jobs is.

In fact, of all people I personally know having iPhone, only one will likely get another no matter what. That is one out of ten, more or less.

Of course 10 people experience is purely anecdotal. Still, how many other iPhone users think the same? I think there is a number.

And Adobe has 9 more months to come up with decent Flash for mobile platform

Riding on popularity of Windows 7, I'd guess.

Right... You're going to cruxify a non-released OS for not having copy/paste at the current moment (I've underlined that word in your own article quote for you)? How do you know that it won't have it when it's officially released at the end of the year? It is still software under work, after all.

If Apple had their software in-work with the same issue, you'd claim the exact same thing I'm saying. It's not like they would release their mobile OS into the wild without it and continue to not have it until after 2 iterations, right?

What about the idea that MS might have come up with a way to not need the traditional text selection copy/paste? If that's the case, I'd really be interested in seeing what they came up with. As either Engadget or Gizmodo said (I can't remember which one), MS has "out-Appled Apple" with WP7S, so anything's game at this point...

I was thinking the same thing. How 2007? How about How 2007, 2008 and half of 2009? Apple released their iPhone OS without copy and paste for 2 years and the Windows trolls loved to rant over how this was a glaring, embarrassing omission. Meanwhile, the Apple fans argued that it was not a necessity, that Apple would include it when the timing was right and other priorities were completed. I argued the same thing in Apple's defense. To now attempt to use that same feature as a cludge to bash a not yet released OS from MS seems petty and not a little ironic.

There's a a lot of irony these days.

I find the viewpoint "the iPhone is best because it has so much software" to be ironic, given that the Mac's lack of software was defended on a "quality, not quantity" basis.

Any port in a storm, I guess...

No more ironic than WinMo users dumping on the iPhone for using too simple an interface. Their argument is usually that WinMo being inconsistent, non-intuitive or requiring visits to XDA for usable or stable ROMs to flash somehow makes it targeted at 'power' users. They tend to confuse 'poorly designed' with 'advanced'.

That's more silly than ironic. WinMo sucks. I hope that version 7 will be better, but I doubt it will be better than the then-available alternatives.

I had a WinMo phone for a few weeks. I tried to like it. But it sucked, and I got a Treo instead.

Now I have an iPhone, which is better in many ways, but infuriatingly dumbed down in too many ways for my taste.

What's wrong with it being simplified? That is sort of the point. You should be able to pick it up and be able to use it right away. That is the nature of well designed, intuitive software. You think it would be better if it was a confused, inconsistent mess?

No, of course not. There are an infinite number of choices between "dumbed down" and "a confused, inconsistent mess"


What's up with the black/white extremes presented here as false dichotomies? I see them so often that I wonder.

You mean like calling it dumbed down?

It takes some effort to develop an interface that is so simple that anyone can use it and still make it functional. To call that 'dumbed down' shows a strange desire for added, unnecessary complexity.

It shows nothing of the sort. Instead, it shows a desire for a full-featured product that is well designed, rather than a product which excludes important stuff in the name of ease of use.

And I think that "dumbed down" is an apt description for products which exclude functionality in order to be easier to use.

And the crazieszt thing of all, IMO, is the way the iPhone is HARDER to use than some possible alternatives - for example, scrolling through 11 pages of similar looking icons to find what you want, rather than allowing similar apps to be grouped into folders.

Before I got my iPhone, I was under the impression that Apple was the king of the UI. But Springboard (again, IMO) sucks big time. I had better app launchers a decade ago on my PalmOS devices.

As great as the iPhone is (was?), the exclusion of capabilities in the name of simplicity is just a cop out. ISTM that it is just a lame excuse for lack of skill in making an easy-to-use UI that allows advanced users to get the most out of the device, while allowing novices to be comfortable.

The two things are not mutually exclusive, claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

Your claims were that it dumbed down, in the sense that it was too easy to use, i.e. your example that your neighbour with down syndrome would easily use it. This doesn't imply anything to do with missing feature, but instead appears to be a complaint about ease of use of the interface itself.

Are there missing feature? Yes, of course. Most have little to do with ease of use. The most glaring have mostly been added (CnP, tethering, VOIP on 3G) and had nothing to do with ease of use.

Which features/functions in particular are missing that you feel were left out in order to make the device easier to use and so dumbed down?