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post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMMI89 View Post

That's true. U.S. businesses get taxed so high that they take their shops overseas for cheap labor. Lower taxes on businesses, pay U.S. workers what their worth and bring back jobs to the U.S.

why in the world do you think that businesses would increase worker pay if taxes were lowered? The only people who would see their pay go up would be the the executives with larger bonuses.
post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by NMMI89 View Post

That's true. U.S. businesses get taxed so high that they take their shops overseas for cheap labor. Lower taxes on businesses, pay U.S. workers what their worth and bring back jobs to the U.S.

You mean $1.50 an hour, which is what they get in China?

Nice plan.
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post #43 of 62
That is BS. The eighties were the height of the biggest economic boom ever. Like most companies, Apple had manufacturing facilities in the US. These companies were making lots of money. Then corporations got greedy and used their new found wealth to get even more profits by coming up with these so called free trade agreements where companies could manufacture things overseas and not pay a tariff to ship the goods back into the Country. Both Democrats and Republicans took the lobby money and said free trade is great for our Country. They claimed we'd be exporting more goods to places like Mexico then we currently were. Right. We soon heard a big sucking sound of jobs leaving the country as companies took advantage of tax breaks and cheap labor.


With so called free trade in place. Americans are now expected to compete with slave labor in Countries that abuse their citizens and don't believe in human rights. The tariff placed on imports had been in place since the founding of our Country and was considered the bedrock of National Security by the Founding Fathers an beyond. Further, the tariff was used to run the government here at home, and pay for government services. What services remain still get paid for, but now they come out of the taxpayer's pocket as opposed to foreign companies wishing to do business in the US.

If the US reverted to tried and true trade policies or only engaged in so called free trade polices with countries that treated workers the same as we do [e.g. Europe], Apple could compete just fine because the US would tax imports accordingly to keep American companies producing thing at home competitive with imports from slave labor countries. Products might cost slightly more, but taxes would go down while service would go up. Further, our Country wouldn't be in debt to China for hundreds of billions of dollars. Money us taxpayers will be paying back, as there is no tariff in place anymore to raise the funds.

Does anybody remember Apple's G5 tank commercials where Apple claimed it couldn't sell the computers to countries like China because of National Security reasons? Free trade ended all that. Now all the high tech stuff is build in these so called dangerous countries. Then countries like China use all these freely acquired knowledge to spy on us and it's citizens. Free trade is going to make Americans slaves because we will not have work or security. If World War 2 today instead of when it did, America wouldn't be a major player in the War as we have few facilities left capable of building equipment. China would be fine though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hypoluxa View Post

No your not. But US companies need cheap labor to make their huge profits. They wouldn't be making the profits they make if they set up shop here in the US.
post #44 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

This notion is incorrect on so many levels (sorry I'm attacking it in general not just from your comment). The idea that the cost would go up is not necessarily correct. Think about it, by not having to import then Apple wouldn't pay customs duties. By not having to supply parts from other companies they can do things cheaper overall. By making their own parts they have the potential to supply other companies so they get more bang for buck.

The fact that it costs $10 billion roughly to setup a fabrication plant is not the issue. Apple made $15 billion in profits last year leaving $5 billion if they made their own plant. Labour costs might go up but then they can make that money back elsewhere with reduced costs so the cost of the end products can stay relatively the same. They would also be able to blow away the competition by manufacturing their own processors that aren't on the market bringing in the potential to bring out Intel and AMD killers and progress the development of RAM and other technologies rather than having to wait until someone makes something you can use.

As I said at the outset, I fervently hope you are right. It's undoubtedly a very complex calculation--far beyond what I am capable of. I hope you are much more sophisticated in cost analysis than I am.
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post #45 of 62
When most of US manufacturing was in the US, prices of electronics were reasonable. US companies were making record profits, so people were buying. So called free trade agreements did not significantly lower the prices of products. They merely raised the amount of profit going to manufacturers. Further, any eventual price decreases in products are necessary to account for the drop in wages for most americans that came about as a result of shipping all the jobs over seas.

I suspect if the iPad was manufactured in the US, it would cost about ten percent more. Companies like Ford are able to keep their vehicles cost competitive with vehicles manufactured in places like Mexico and Korea. The biggest cost for manufacturing in the US isn't wages, but health care and defending bogus lawsuits brought by former employees [e.g. discrimination]. I used to work in an employment law firm. If an employee filed a discrimination complaint with the federal government, a company would spend $10, 000 to fight it even when the complaint was clearly BS. Wage savings in places like China are offset by the price to play tax paid to the government in places like China. In China, workers can't bring discrimination type lawsuits.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

I am afraid we have become so accustomed to paying relatively cheap prices for consumer electronics, that the additional costs that U.S. manufacture would add to the retail price would be an impossible sell. We heard the criticism when it was speculated that the new iPad would start at $1000 didn't we? Even now that we know the price scale, I bet even the cheapest one would be even more than $1K if it were built here.
post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

A decent life is a rather subjective term. Truly it is. It is difficult to relate on what a decent life means to people who are so removed from Western culture. It is at best misinformed to developed opinions based on these premeditated controversial media reports.

I agree, it is subjective. But I didn't mean to imply that to be fair that the Chinese workers in question had to earn the same income as me in the U.S.

But to form an opinion that workers in some overseas plants have to work in conditions and for remuneration that are in need of substantial improvement by any standard, based on reports one has seen in the media, is not necessarily to be misinformed. Unless you can establish that these so-called controversial reports are uniformly and substantially incorrect, one might draw some measured conclusions from them without being labeled misinformed. Is it your position that everything is hunky dory in these plants? Or that just until we have indisputable evidence that we should assume everything is fine?

I am reminded of the old song: "Ay, yai, yai-yai, in China they do it for horse shit."

The old colonialist double standard that ditty stems from seems alive and well.

I hope I am wrong, but I am uncomfortable turning a blind eye to something that I am participating in, even if far up the food chain.
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post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

When most of US manufacturing was in the US, prices of electronics were reasonable. US companies were making record profits, so people were buying. So called free trade agreements did not significantly lower the prices of products. They merely raised the amount of profit going to manufacturers. Further, any eventual price decreases in products are necessary to account for the drop in wages for most americans that came about as a result of shipping all the jobs over seas.

I suspect if the iPad was manufactured in the US, it would cost about ten percent more. Companies like Ford are able to keep their vehicles cost competitive with vehicles manufactured in places like Mexico and Korea. The biggest cost for manufacturing in the US isn't wages, but health care and defending bogus lawsuits brought by former employees [e.g. discrimination]. I used to work in an employment law firm. If an employee filed a discrimination complaint with the federal government, a company would spend $10, 000 to fight it even when the complaint was clearly BS. Wage savings in places like China are offset by the price to play tax paid to the government in places like China. In China, workers can't bring discrimination type lawsuits.

As I responded to another, my heart is with you on this. I want the US to rebuild its manufacturing base. Having said that, I am a little confused by your position on anti-discrimination lawsuits. Because there are bogus ones are you suggesting that we should outlaw them altogether? I hope not. I think there is a middle ground. Perhaps some kind extra-legal mediation that could throw out the more egregious examples of junk lawsuits while still leaving room for those with a legitimate complaint.
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post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

That is BS. The eighties were the height of the biggest economic boom ever. Like most companies, Apple had manufacturing facilities in the US. These companies were making lots of money. Then corporations got greedy and used their new found wealth to get even more profits by coming up with these so called free trade agreements where companies could manufacture things overseas and not pay a tariff to ship the goods back into the Country. Both Democrats and Republicans took the lobby money and said free trade is great for our Country. They claimed we'd be exporting more goods to places like Mexico then we currently were. Right. We soon heard a big sucking sound of jobs leaving the country as companies took advantage of tax breaks and cheap labor.


With so called free trade in place. Americans are now expected to compete with slave labor in Countries that abuse their citizens and don't believe in human rights. The tariff placed on imports had been in place since the founding of our Country and was considered the bedrock of National Security by the Founding Fathers an beyond. Further, the tariff was used to run the government here at home, and pay for government services. What services remain still get paid for, but now they come out of the taxpayer's pocket as opposed to foreign companies wishing to do business in the US.

If the US reverted to tried and true trade policies or only engaged in so called free trade polices with countries that treated workers the same as we do [e.g. Europe], Apple could compete just fine because the US would tax imports accordingly to keep American companies producing thing at home competitive with imports from slave labor countries. Products might cost slightly more, but taxes would go down while service would go up. Further, our Country wouldn't be in debt to China for hundreds of billions of dollars. Money us taxpayers will be paying back, as there is no tariff in place anymore to raise the funds.

Does anybody remember Apple's G5 tank commercials where Apple claimed it couldn't sell the computers to countries like China because of National Security reasons? Free trade ended all that. Now all the high tech stuff is build in these so called dangerous countries. Then countries like China use all these freely acquired knowledge to spy on us and it's citizens. Free trade is going to make Americans slaves because we will not have work or security. If World War 2 today instead of when it did, America wouldn't be a major player in the War as we have few facilities left capable of building equipment. China would be fine though.

Well said good sir! I agree wholeheartedly. Nice to see such a deep level of discussion.

Unfortunately though we are stuck in our current predicament as long as America keeps voting for these two parties of bought and paid for crooks.
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post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

The fact that it costs $10 billion roughly to setup a fabrication plant is not the issue. Apple made $15 billion in profits last year leaving $5 billion if they made their own plant. Labour costs might go up but then they can make that money back elsewhere with reduced costs so the cost of the end products can stay relatively the same. They would also be able to blow away the competition by manufacturing their own processors that aren't on the market bringing in the potential to bring out Intel and AMD killers and progress the development of RAM and other technologies rather than having to wait until someone makes something you can use.

Problem is, workers in the US demand at least $30,000 a year vs. workers in China demand $1000 a year. I don't care how high the customs duties are, there's no way they're that astronomically high to make up for that other $29,000 a year per worker. So that statistic is flawed. Why do you think companies like Dell go to China for the cheapest price to manufacture? Is it because they like having sweatshop conditions for manufacturing? Probably not... it's just so much cheaper because you think US wages are reasonable, just look at China's wages and you'll be shocked. China's workers get paid as much in a week as what you would get paid in a few hours.

So you're clearly out-priced when it comes to pure manual labor.
post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter236 View Post

Apple has to rely on the contract manufacturs to design its parts. For example Apple does not know how to make touch screens, batteries and flash memory. It has to rely on the contractors to design and make those parts that can be incorporated into an Apple product. If Apple wants a battery of a certain shape for its iPods, or an aluminium shell of a certain design for its laptop, it has to totally rely on others to make them, as Apple does not have the technology to make them. So Apple should not ask for too much.

I never said Apple manufactured anything; it's well known that they don't. However, if they spec something to a manufacturer, as paying customers they should get what they want. Apple just has tighter tolerances on pretty much everything it makes.

I just replaced the hard drive on my early-2008 MacBook Pro. Buried deep inside were these wonderful looking screws, angled just right for easy removal/installation. Why? As Mark Twain would probably say, "Because that's the way it should be."
post #51 of 62
Quote: "the report issued Wednesday afternoon revealed that Apple often decides on a supplier only weeks before a product is rumored to launch. "

That is why it's often better to wait a few months before buying radically new Apple products. It gives suppliers enough time to straighten out production problems, as well as for flaws in the design to be corrected. Let other people live on the bleeding edge of technology.
post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartfat View Post

Problem is, workers in the US demand at least $30,000 a year vs. workers in China demand $1000 a year. I don't care how high the customs duties are, there's no way they're that astronomically high to make up for that other $29,000 a year per worker. So that statistic is flawed. Why do you think companies like Dell go to China for the cheapest price to manufacture? Is it because they like having sweatshop conditions for manufacturing? Probably not... it's just so much cheaper because you think US wages are reasonable, just look at China's wages and you'll be shocked. China's workers get paid as much in a week as what you would get paid in a few hours.

So you're clearly out-priced when it comes to pure manual labor.

So Americans should start "demanding" $1.50 an hour?
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post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartfat View Post

Problem is, workers in the US demand at least $30,000 a year vs. workers in China demand $1000 a year. I don't care how high the customs duties are, there's no way they're that astronomically high to make up for that other $29,000 a year per worker. So that statistic is flawed. Why do you think companies like Dell go to China for the cheapest price to manufacture? Is it because they like having sweatshop conditions for manufacturing? Probably not... it's just so much cheaper because you think US wages are reasonable, just look at China's wages and you'll be shocked. China's workers get paid as much in a week as what you would get paid in a few hours.

So you're clearly out-priced when it comes to pure manual labor.

Yeah but the implications of skimping out on labour are larger than the ideology that less wages equals more profits.

Look at how many cheap Chinese knock offs there are of Apple products. True it's the software that makes all the difference but China has access to that as well. That equates to lost profits due to another company stealing Apple's IP. Yes Apple can sue them but that's more cost.

Who's going to be less likely to distribute trade secrets someone on $30,000 a year or someone who's on $1000 per year? That $29,000/year savings could easily be lost due to trade theft.
Also there's a lot of trust going into a country that no one truly knows what it is up to. All China would need to do is say they're not going to build anyone's products anymore, after having copied the details of the product, and everyone who's making products in China is up the creek without a paddle. America wouldn't take them on... not when China owns $80 billion of American debt that it could call back and bankrupt the country.

As I said, having everything in house might seem more expensive but the potential for things exploding in their face would cost far more than what they're saving.

This is why I hate accountants because they think the best way to save money is to get rid of workers. That's NEVER the best way to save money. You end up with unskilled labour which affects quality and in some cases lives. You can always save money elsewhere but labour should never be it. If I was running a business and my accountant told me to save money by firing people the first to go would be the accountant. Their inability to see beyond the here and now and their inability to actually understand the core business means they should have no say beyond reporting figures and doing tax returns.
post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by acslater017 View Post

Apple probably has more manufacturing clout than any other tech company out there these days. If the manufacturers don't want to play by their customer's (Apple's) rules, they don't have to do business. However, Apple does need to follow up on their "treat all workers with respect" words. They did a great job improving their environmental impact over the past three or four years. Perhaps the next step is to publicly, transparently set standards for its manufacturers - then enforce them with inspections.

Apple's got $30 billion in cash. They can afford to pay their factory workers the Chinese minimum wage, give them breaks, be treated humanely, etc. It's fine if they want to be secretive - they just need to be aware of the environment this causes for their suppliers and ensure that people are treated with respect.

They've got more than $30 Billion. Their latest 10-Q lists > $33 Billion.
post #55 of 62
What is so hard about keeping your mouth shut?
post #56 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Agreed. Im sure Apple is doing somethingand theyre probably even among the BEST in this regard, while tons of other companies arent newsworthy. But are they doing enough? They werent in the past.

apple has one chink in its armor

it has slave labour in china making its products cheap
americans who buy its products are not good enough for apple to employ

apple enables those who treat workers badly

after green peace nailed apple on toxic sludge ,,apple woke up


what scandel will wake apple up this time ???

shame on apple
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post #57 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartfat View Post

Problem is, workers in the US demand at least $30,000 a year vs. workers in China demand $1000 a year. I don't care how high the customs duties are, there's no way they're that astronomically high to make up for that other $29,000 a year per worker. So that statistic is flawed. Why do you think companies like Dell go to China for the cheapest price to manufacture? Is it because they like having sweatshop conditions for manufacturing? Probably not... it's just so much cheaper because you think US wages are reasonable, just look at China's wages and you'll be shocked. China's workers get paid as much in a week as what you would get paid in a few hours.

So you're clearly out-priced when it comes to pure manual labor.

bullshit
pure fucking bullshit
if china had work place safety rules equal to america then the playing field would be equal
china killed off american industries w/ below cost pricing
and then adds lead and stuff like that to make up for its lies and cheats
china in the 50's had vast slave labour farms .
they never went away .
china abuses its workers in many ways .
in china if you search for a certain word you can go to jail
in fact this post your here made could lose your whole family there jobs

poor farms girls are lured to the big city end up sleeping on the streets . rape affects almost 100 percent of these poor women . so mr big mouth getting a low payin job at a chinese APPLE slave factory may just save there lives ..

people in america died to secure basic human work place condtions
it took many years
it cost real money to keep us safe
apple should read up on JOE HILL

over priced ?? I guess the ten thousand coal worker that die every year applaud you !!!
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post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

I agree, it is subjective. But I didn't mean to imply that to be fair that the Chinese workers in question had to earn the same income as me in the U.S.

I understood what you mean, and didn't think you wanted them to have the same kind of working conditions seen in the Western world.

Quote:
But to form an opinion that workers in some overseas plants have to work in conditions and for remuneration that are in need of substantial improvement by any standard, based on reports one has seen in the media, is not necessarily to be misinformed. Unless you can establish that these so-called controversial reports are uniformly and substantially incorrect, one might draw some measured conclusions from them without being labeled misinformed. Is it your position that everything is hunky dory in these plants? Or that just until we have indisputable evidence that we should assume everything is fine?

My position is one of no position until more information is available. I have been exposed enough to 3rd world living and non-Western culture such that I know that applying Western morals and norms may not be appreciated or appropriate. It's difficult to judge. It may even be wrong to judge.

Quote:
I hope I am wrong, but I am uncomfortable turning a blind eye to something that I am participating in, even if far up the food chain.

You're going to be uncomfortable for the rest of your life. Every facet of your life has been touched by the contributions of people living in what we consider squalid conditions. It's a basic consequence of reality. For example: the lithium in the battery of your iPod/iPhone/Mac was probably mined somewhere in South America with slave-labor like working conditions (primarily consisting of downtrodden native Americans who lost their culture to germs and colonization centuries ago), then probably shipped to China for processing in slightly better working conditions, then shipped to Japan for manufacturing of the batteries who will all think work crazy hours, right? The other materials in the battery likely followed the same chain. The completed battery is shipped to Taiwan or China for assembly in the aforementioned working conditions.

The same thing goes for basically every thing we own. It will take some serious change to government to change.
post #59 of 62
I think this is understandable and justified, cause not everyone is a friend, no matter how much we want them to be...

http://www.macnn.com/articles/10/02/...treme.secrecy/

Great political angles explorations in previous posts! Thanks! It reminded me of this Lenin quote:

"The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them." -- http://bit.ly/c82ca0

I guess those with the deeper history knowledge could make that quote fit the above posts on Free Trade, etc...

On a semi-related level... How about this analogy?!
  • Pet owner loves, worships his/her dog...
  • The dog sees a bird, or something else, and its hunting instinct is to chase and kill that something..
  • That something is someone's dad, mom, brother, even if they are not human...

A Possible Simplified Conclusion to the above example: One person's Angel is another person's Devil...

How does is that related to this Thread/Topic?

I think there is truth in opposing arguments... Luckily, I am not required to vote here... But, eventually we all vote directly or indirectly, as we try to get through this thing called life!

I'll repeat myself: this is why I like this Forum! It can be educational... Thanks to all for your thoughts!

P.S. Hopefully, the pet owners will stop their dogs before they kill that something, and feed their dogs the dog food..., even though dogs would rather eat something else! But then again, there are hunting dogs too, that are trained specifically to chase and kill... Then the owner either eats the catch, or and hangs it on their wall to show off... In the end, both owners and the dogs die... The cycle repeats... Oops... Yes, I know this is getting way off-topic. It's just that I didn't want anyone to think that I was simply joking...

Hope we all "vote" the right way, to do the right thing... And that "we" applies to our governments, and corporations, Apple among them! In the end, it all boils down to individuals... And who's perfect? Nobody....

 

Go  Apple, AAPL!!!

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Go  Apple, AAPL!!!

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post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

I do not know about other US companies, but I can safely say that several European companies do a lot more. From much more precise supplier terms (Apple's are really superficial), frequent random checks, providing anonymous complaint hotlines, to even putting undercover workers or permanent reps into companies, if there are any doubts. (No, I am not saying that solves all the problems but it sure makes it less convenient for the bad boys.) Apple pretty much relies on paperwork, and that is more CYA than efficient. So, their checks indicated that a huge amount of their suppliers does not pay enough and that people do work too many hours... does that help? There are several developing countries with high industry standards throughout Asia. If China is unable an unwilling, move elsewhere... If this increases production cost by 2-3% (hardly more), so what?

Probably, Foxconn has operations in many developing countries. They are the leaders in contract manufacturing. It is not China's problems, it is Foxconn's problem. Even if Apple moves to some other country, it will still be Foxconn's factories.
post #61 of 62
Originally Posted by dreyfus2
I do not know about other US companies, but I can safely say that several European companies do a lot more. From much more precise supplier terms (Apple's are really superficial), frequent random checks, providing anonymous complaint hotlines, to even putting undercover workers or permanent reps into companies, if there are any doubts. (No, I am not saying that solves all the problems – but it sure makes it less convenient for the bad boys.) Apple pretty much relies on paperwork, and that is more CYA than efficient. So, their checks indicated that a huge amount of their suppliers does not pay enough and that people do work too many hours... does that help? There are several developing countries with high industry standards throughout Asia. If China is unable an unwilling, move elsewhere... If this increases production cost by 2-3% (hardly more), so what?


Please give several examples of such European companies! That way it'd be easier to see how different they are from Apple: size, kind etc.

I wonder if Apple could emulate such honorable practices.. From your comment one might infer that Apple is knowingly looking the other way from these problems!

The other Q: where does compliance end, and nation building begins? If one is not a Saint, are they a Devil?!

What are you basing your 2-3% production costs increase estimate on? Are you in a similar business? Where you at the Apple meetings when those decisions where made?

Have you shared your suggestions with Apple? If so, how did that go? If you have not, why not?

I am not looking to start a fire here, just sharing a Q...


peter236:

Probably, Foxconn has operations in many developing countries. They are the leaders in contract manufacturing. It is not China's problems, it is Foxconn's problem. Even if Apple moves to some other country, it will still be Foxconn's factories.


If Foxconn is a leader, then there are followers, right!?! I.e. Foxconn is not the only one.... Thus Apple does have other options, right?

To conclude:

Unless one knows all that Appe's execs know about how to do put it all together, how is anyone really qualified to advise? Anyone can criticize, but, as they say - the devil is in the details...

One more point on SECRECY:

I heard about the criticism of US Military advertising in advance an offensive in a particular area of Afghanistan. That gave Taliban a chance to mine roads with mines. True or not, it's best to not telegraph the next punch. Yes, maybe decoys, in lieu of a reverse psychology is a tactic too, but none of those are a perfect science...

I am glad to see this discussion, and I hope that Apple is monitoring it, but I wonder how wide this discussion is. Are we just a few people reading this Forum, or is this something that is a really wide, worldwide concern?

Are Apple's hands the dirtiest, bloodiest out there, when it comes to outsourcing etc? I doubt it...

Apple is a leader, so it's no surprise that it'll the get most criticism. No success comes without its mistakes!

I am not qualified to judge Apple, and I wonder if everyone who criticizes Apple is either, no matter how knowledgeable they appear to sound!

I guess Apple could have a PR Czar who would take on every single rumor, allegation etc. Sometimes I wish they had one, but then I realize that if they did, there would be a whole army of those who'd keep that PR Czar busy, in order to keep themselves visible, in the news, and thus artificially important. That would change the topic from what Apple does... Such concept already exists outside technology -- just turn on the TV, and you'll see a bunch of pundits appearing on similar shows on various Networks in US. I guess the the rest of the world might adopt such trends, if they haven't already! The pundits constantly look for a fresh new "meat" to keep themselves visible, and thus working... Apple can't ignore all pundits, but it can't pander to them either...

Apple sets their own agenda, and protects it... We all have our Wish Lists... And so it goes...

No, I am not a fan boy, but I have thought about that stuff a bit, so I though I'd share... !

 

Go  Apple, AAPL!!!

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Go  Apple, AAPL!!!

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post #62 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

after green peace nailed apple on toxic sludge ,,apple woke up

Actually no it didn't. If you look back to the section on the Keynote after GreenPeace had a go at Apple Steve Jobs said he went and had a look at their history of environmental issues and realised they'd been slowly removing toxic chemicals for their products for the last 20 years.

GreenPeace did nothing more than make Apple report to the world what they were doing which they were already doing putting HP and the likes to shame for saying they were going to do something only to not.
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