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Steve Jobs calls Flash a 'CPU hog' in meeting with WSJ - rumor

post #1 of 284
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In a recent meeting with officials from The Wall Street Journal to pitch the Apple iPad, Steve Jobs allegedly and unsurprisingly had harsh words for Adobe Flash, calling it "old technology."

According to Valleywag, Jobs met with officials from the newspaper weeks ago to talk to them about the possibility of bringing the Journal to the iPad. When Jobs demonstrated the device, editors allegedly asked about the iPad's lack of support for Adobe Flash.

Much of what the Apple co-founder allegedly said is similar to what was attributed to him from a recent company town hall meeting: Flash is a "CPU hog" that is full of "security holes." He also reportedly said, "We don't spend a lot of energy on old technology."

Jobs is then rumored to have gone on to compare Flash to a number of now-defunct technologies that Apple abandoned, including floppy drives, old data ports (including FireWire 400), and even the CD, replaced by the iPod and iTunes. He also allegedly said including Flash support would reduce the iPad's battery life from 10 hours to just 1.5 hours.

The multi-billionaire reportedly suggested that the newspaper abandon Flash -- a "trivial" move -- and embrace an alternative, like the H.264 codec.

During that same meeting, Journal editor Alan Murray posted to Twitter from an iPad Jobs brought with him. That incident reportedly upset Jobs, who allegedly had the editor delete the post after he was said to be "furious."

In an e-mail to Gawker, Murray reportedly said: "I will say that Apple's general paranoia about news coverage is truly extraordinary but that's not telling you anything you didn't already know."

Apple and Adobe have had a high-profile dispute over the use of Flash on the Web since the iPhone debuted in 2007 without support for the Web format. Apple has famously shunned Flash, with the Web plugin having no support in the iPhone or iPod touch Safari browser.

This week, Adobe's CTO defended his company against comments attributed to Jobs from the town hall meeting. Kevin Lynch acknowledged that Mac users have had issues with Flash, and that the Mac version does not work as well as its PC counterpart, but he said the company is working to address the concerns of users.

"We're totally open to hearing feedback like that," Lynch said. "And that's one of the really important things to do in a situation like this, when people are complaining about something -- not going into internal mode, or whatever, (but) really listening to what people are saying. We do that with our customers, we do that with our critics, and often there are kernels in there that we ought to do something about, and so we are."
post #2 of 284
My only little criticism of Jobs' Adobe bashing is when he calls Adobe "lazy." It is understandable that he would use that characterization, but that kind of statement makes it sound like Adobe employees spend all their time on Facebook. The real issue is that people in Adobe management choose to allocate resources in a way that results in Flash performing poorly -- that is, they choose not to spend resources on making it the best product it can be. That's not so much "lazy" as it is "bad management".

[edited for grammar failures]
post #3 of 284
Furious? That sounds like gawker linkbait to me. Pissed off sure - but if he's capable of turning green, his gamma radiated biceps ripping through his black turtleneck and chucking Wall Street Journal executives out 30th floor windows, then that'd be fun to imagine - but doubtful.
post #4 of 284
Sounds like iSteve needs some therapy.
post #5 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

The rest of the world could care less if HTML5 or Flash is used as long as their video works.

One of the best comments on Apple Insider for some time. The general public who are the majority of people buying stuff don't care about how things work, as long as they do.
post #6 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

One of the best comments on Apple Insider for some time. The general public who are the majority of people buying stuff don't care about how things work, as long as they do.

Depends what your definition of "work" is.. A perfect example is one I found in a Flash thread here yesterday.. www.jimcarrey.com. On a 2009 MacbookPro, my battery estimate decreased by 50% while testing out that site.. To me, that means it's not working...


Another annoying site.. www.nike.com... It's all Flash, buggy as hell and slow.. The worst part is I need to visit it every day to log my Nike+ miles, which ironically is a product that was developed jointly by Nike and Apple, but yet the site is completely unviewable by the iDevices that the Nike+ system was designed to work on (iPod touch/iPhone 3gs)...
post #7 of 284
Here we have another post that plays "he said/she said" without bothering to evaluate the content of any of the statements quoted. Like most political coverage, this isn't journalism - it's textual bulimia. The writer scans some press releases and regurgitates a mashup that's sort of green, maybe brown, a bit yellow, and not good for anything but flushing.

Is Flash "old technology," in the sense of "obsolete technology." Is it a CPU hog? Is it trivial for sites that depend on video to change to another format?

If we care, we'll have to find out for ourselves. All we'll get here is celebrity entertainment coverage. Steve doesn't like Adobe. Steve said a Mean Thing. Adobe's feelings are hurt. Steve really doesn't like journalists.

The last is at least remarkable. Given that there are clearly so very, very few of them left, it's a little like having a dodo phobia.
post #8 of 284
It goes both ways. Adobe slammed the Mac the other day by saying it was difficult for them to come out with a faster version on the OS. Their comments just reinforce Jobs rumored statements that their developers are lazy.
post #9 of 284
Quote:
Steve Jobs calls Flash a 'CPU hog' in meeting with WSJ


Sure it's a CPU hog when it's running on the underpowered devices like the iPhone, iPod Touch and the mere 1 Ghz iPad which Flash wasn't designed to run on.

Flash was designed with the increase of processor performance on computers in mind, not these underpowered hand held devices.
post #10 of 284
The iPad isn't approved by the FCC yet. Using it violates regulations and could get Apple in trouble. Jobs was right to be upset that Alan Murphy used its wireless capabilities.
post #11 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

One of the best comments on Apple Insider for some time. The general public who are the majority of people buying stuff don't care about how things work, as long as they do.

Very true. The general public traditionally doesn't care about technical superiority otherwise, to use a very old example, Beta would have beaten out VHS.

P.S. And yes I know about the licensing issues - the format was technically better than VHS

P.P.S. Don't forget, Flash's claim to fame was that Microsoft adopted it to destroy QuickTime. Not because it was better - only because it wasn't Apple.
post #12 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woohoo! View Post

Sure it's a CPU hog when it's running on the underpowered devices like the iPhone, iPod Touch and the mere 1 Ghz iPad which Flash wasn't designed to run on.

See my above post.. 2009 MacBook Pro. 2.53 GHZ Core2Duo. 4 GB RAM..

And FLash on a MacBook Air?? Forget it..
post #13 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

One of the best comments on Apple Insider for some time. The general public who are the majority of people buying stuff don't care about how things work, as long as they do.

Really I think that wasn't a good comment at all, or are you failing to see that those same people are also the same people who have nothing to do with innovating technology?

The internet needs open standards, the rendering engines that can blaze through HTML5 will elevate the web browsing experience. Flash:RIP.
post #14 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

One of the best comments on Apple Insider for some time. The general public who are the majority of people buying stuff don't care about how things work, as long as they do.

Unless your laptop sounds like a 747 at take-off when you're only browsing the web. Sure they don't care whether it is Flash or HTML5, but the fact that you have the noise and the heat matters.
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post #15 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

One of the best comments on Apple Insider for some time. The general public who are the majority of people buying stuff don't care about how things work, as long as they do.

Sure. However, companies that manufacture, sell, and provide support for computers do care when those same people who don't know/don't care are bringing their computers in for service/support due to problems (unknowingly) caused by Flash.

Now, while you can say: "sure, but this isn't specific to Flash, it's true for all software people install", the fact is that Flash tends to be much more invisible to people than full-fledged applications. So it's very easy for someone to mistake the problems caused by Flash as being Safari's or Mac OS's fault. Whereas with full-fledged applications, it's easier to see that it's that particular application causing problems (not Apple's software).

The same thing holds true for poor device drivers (which plague the Windows PC world).

So when you see the bigger picture here (i.e. the effect on Apple's bottom line), it's easier to understand why it's a big deal to Jobs/Apple.
 
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post #16 of 284
Flash, to me, is the developer's lazy way out when creating content for the web. I totally agree with Steve Jobs. It's annoying, it hogs CPU, it's buggy, and it's monopolizing multimedia development. (In fact, can't that be said for all of Adobe's products?)

Here's why HTML5 and CSS2 technologies would work: they can manipulate video, audio and imagery without plugins. Because of this, there will be less CPU usage and more efficiency in web development. It's that simple. Why learn a new program for creating multimedia web design when you will soon be able to do it with the tools you already know to create static content? Flash is like fat when clogged into arteries. When those arteries (PCs, Macs, and any other digital device) become overcrowded, things tend not to work as well or shut down altogether.
post #17 of 284
Here is Holman's response to Steve Jobs and Flash, on his WSJ blog.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...tml?mg=com-wsj

The title of which is "The Microsofting of Apple? Apple is in danger of becoming preoccupied with zero-sm maneuvering vs hated rivals"
post #18 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woohoo! View Post

Sure it's a CPU hog when it's running on the underpowered devices like the iPhone, iPod Touch and the mere 1 Ghz iPad which Flash wasn't designed to run on.

Thats the whole point, mobile is the future. Old technology is fine when you are plugged in.
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post #19 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crtaylor View Post

Flash, to me, is the developer's lazy way out when creating content for the web. I totally agree with Steve Jobs. It's annoying, it hogs CPU, it's buggy, and it's monopolizing multimedia development. (In fact, can't that be said for all of Adobe's products?)

Here's why HTML5 and CSS2 technologies would work: they can manipulate video, audio and imagery without plugins. Because of this, there will be less CPU usage and more efficiency in web development. It's that simple. Why learn a new program for creating multimedia web design when you will soon be able to do it with the tools you already know to create static content? Flash is like fat when clogged into arteries. When those arteries (PCs, Macs, and any other digital device) become overcrowded, things tend not to work as well or shut down altogether.

except that HTML 5 standards are not set, and are not expected to be finalized for many years to come. In the meantime then, theoretically there can be different implementations which forces companies like Apple and Microsoft and others to write code to handle it al.

Thing is, Flash has never crashed my Mac when I run Firefox, but Safari crashes frequently. YMMV, but one has to wonder where the issue lies.
post #20 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Thats the whole point, mobile is the future. Old technology is fine when you are plugged in.

I certainly hope not. Given the recent issues with Cloud Computing and server failures, I do not want my personal stuff sitting on some server in some country. I want it on my computer.
post #21 of 284
You know Jobs tends to complain like this just before a "solution" (product) announcement.
post #22 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

I certainly hope not. Given the recent issues with Cloud Computing and server failures, I do not want my personal stuff sitting on some server in some country. I want it on my computer.

It can be on both easily enough, all my work is now and has been for quite a while. This includes high definition video productions as well as document type work such as client proposals and quotes etc..
Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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Enjoying the new Mac Pro ... it's smokin'
Been using Apple since Apple ][ - Long on AAPL so biased
nMac Pro 6 Core, MacBookPro i7, MacBookPro i5, iPhones 5 and 5s, iPad Air, 2013 Mac mini.
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post #23 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woohoo! View Post

Sure it's a CPU hog when it's running on the underpowered devices like the iPhone, iPod Touch and the mere 1 Ghz iPad which Flash wasn't designed to run on.

Flash was designed with the increase of processor performance on computers in mind, not these underpowered hand held devices.

It's a hog on any Macintosh desktop computer I've ever used.
post #24 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

except that HTML 5 standards are not set, and are not expected to be finalized for many years to come. In the meantime then, theoretically there can be different implementations which forces companies like Apple and Microsoft and others to write code to handle it al.

Thing is, Flash has never crashed my Mac when I run Firefox, but Safari crashes frequently. YMMV, but one has to wonder where the issue lies.

it crashes my firefox badly. On my PC at work too.
post #25 of 284
We get video sent to us from our manufacturers. For the last few years its been in Flash format but lately that's all changed and it's mainly H.264. In fact we've had to change our website accordingly as we can't get flash format anymore.

This video then gets viewed by the normal everyday folk.

So perhaps a lot of what Jobs is allegedly saying is resonating with the corporations that produce the content in the first place.
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post #26 of 284
Well just about all news media is about hyperbole now so I'm sure SJ was "furious" by their definition.

As for the WSJ dropping flash, I'm all for every site in the universe dropping it. I no longer use it and don't visit any sites which depend on its use.
post #27 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woohoo! View Post

Sure it's a CPU hog when it's running on the underpowered devices like the iPhone, iPod Touch and the mere 1 Ghz iPad which Flash wasn't designed to run on.

Good point but Flash as it exists today, as part of a web page or completely encompassing the entire web site (dumb) is clearly not designed to be used on a touch screen device.

Developers need to custom design web pages for each device/browser just like the old days. Sniff the user agent and switch styles, video formats, layout, etc. And don't expect the requirements to be the same for the iPad and iPhone either. You will need two different presentations due to the difference in screen dimensions. A lot of extra work for developers and an overwhelming if not impossible task for smaller organizations.

But Steve is right about trying to keep it off the mobile platform as it would certainly degrade the experience. Too many Flash 'designers' are not programmers and their product often makes the end user suffer due to the lack of proper optimization.

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post #28 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woohoo! View Post

Sure it's a CPU hog when it's running on the underpowered devices like the iPhone, iPod Touch and the mere 1 Ghz iPad which Flash wasn't designed to run on.
Flash was designed with the increase of processor performance on computers in mind, not these underpowered hand held devices.

i recommended a friend to buy a macbook a few weeks ago. he did.
nothing but complaints since. it hangs, spinning ball, he has to restart many times a day.

i narrowed the problem down to "it happens when i'm on the web"; i noticed that he likes to spend time on youtube, and that he opens multiple tabs in safari.

i installed clicktoflash 4 days ago, all problems gone, he's delighted.

from someone who was complaining and ready to return the device he is now someone recommending others to buy an apple computer.

this has nothing to do with underpowered handhelds.
post #29 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Thing is, Flash has never crashed my Mac when I run Firefox, but Safari crashes frequently. YMMV, but one has to wonder where the issue lies.


According to security types, Safari is a recipe for trouble, adding the insecure Flash to that makes things worse.

Quote:
"...the Safari Web browser also has a lousy reputation in the security community--it almost seems a child's play to locate an exploitable condition in Safari.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-10444561-245.html


I use Firefox on my Mac, have NoScript and Betterprivacy installed to take care of Flash issues.
post #30 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Sounds like iSteve needs some therapy.

Why? Because he doesn't want a 20 year old piece of shit software vampiring the battery life from the devices he's trying to promote?

Flash was not designed for portable devices. It has a bandaid on it to work on portable devices, but otherwise sucks up the same energy as a desktop computer.

Adobe could have rewritten it from scratch, but they sat on their asses like most companies do that don't have any competition. Well, now they do and they're panicking because it's too late.

Flash is RealPlayer. Bye Bye.

Next time pick a handle that fits you.
post #31 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilogic View Post

The internet needs open standards, the rendering engines that can blaze through HTML5 will elevate the web browsing experience. Flash:RIP.

The Ajax movement is just the tip of the iceberg. Once the whole HTML5/CSS/Javascript format gets into full swing your CPU usage is likely to be just as much as Flash requires today.

For example, open up your activity monitor and watch the CPU spike when you open Google's web pages. The amount of code on those pages is enormous. In the case of Google their code is highly compressed and optimized. But put that same technology in the hands average web designers and poorly written javascript has the same potential to cripple your computer that users are criticizing Flash for today.

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post #32 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

My only little criticism of Jobs' Adobe bashing is when he calls Adobe "lazy." It is understandable that he would use that characterization, but that kind of statement makes it sound like Adobe employees spend all their time on Facebook. The real issue is that people in Adobe management choose to allocate resources in a way that results in Flash performing poorly -- that is, they choose not to spend resources on making it the best product it can be. That's not so much "lazy" as it is "bad management".

[edited for grammar failures]

So do YOU know how Adobe employees spend their time? Not for nothing, but it doesn't seem like you're in any position to disagree with Jobs', unless you know something.

Reallocating resources is one thing, but when you've had a half a decade to get on board, well, how can you NOT agree with Jobs. Adobe has had plenty of time to bring their plug-in, not flagship, enterprise grade product, but PLUG-IN up to snuff. They haven't. And haven't done much in the way of the Windows platform either.

The current beta, yes, still beta, is only now getting GPU acceleration. Quite frankly, Adobe has long only cared about holding their monopoly, rather than releasing innovative products and securing their position rightfully through excellent products and top notch user experience.

Many of their products are decrepit and aging. They had to buy out Macromedia to avoid competing with them. A shame. Their is nothing in their last 5 year history (or very much before that) that shows how progressive and truly high functioning they really are. Update cycles of 2 years and with little to show for it at the end of day make most reluctant Adobe users, not happy ones...
post #33 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidT View Post

i recommended a friend to buy a macbook a few weeks ago. he did.
nothing but complaints since. it hangs, spinning ball, he has to restart many times a day.

i narrowed the problem down to "it happens when i'm on the web"; i noticed that he likes to spend time on youtube, and that he opens multiple tabs in safari.

i installed clicktoflash 4 days ago, all problems gone, he's delighted.

from someone who was complaining and ready to return the device he is now someone recommending others to buy an apple computer.

this has nothing to do with underpowered handhelds.



So all you did was stop the auto-loading of multiple tabbed YouTube videos in Safari so only one loads at a time with ClicktoFlash.

If he's getting a colored beachball and has to restart, it's a software problem as the OS or program is hanging and requires a backup, wipe and zero and reinstall of the OS and latest Flash version.
post #34 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdkennedy1 View Post

Why? Because he doesn't want a 20 year old piece of shit software vampiring the battery life from the devices he's trying to promote?

Flash was not designed for portable devices. It has a bandaid on it to work on portable devices, but otherwise sucks up the same energy as a desktop computer.

Adobe could have rewritten it from scratch, but they sat on their asses like most companies do that don't have any competition. Well, now they do and they're panicking because it's too late.

Flash is RealPlayer. Bye Bye.

Next time pick a handle that fits you.

Dude. PRECISELY! I'm dumbfounded that so little people realize this. Nice to see another human being get what the deal is
post #35 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

it crashes my firefox badly. On my PC at work too.

Like I said, YMMV but the iMac at home that my daughter uses crashes when playing games using Safari, but they play just fine under Firefox. I have not had many problems on my MacPro so who knows.
post #36 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidT View Post

i narrowed the problem down to "it happens when i'm on the web"; i noticed that he likes to spend time on youtube, and that he opens multiple tabs in safari.

Yeah, Safari, I quit using it long ago. Flash, I still use every day without problems.
post #37 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woohoo! View Post

Sure it's a CPU hog when it's running on the underpowered devices like the iPhone, iPod Touch and the mere 1 Ghz iPad which Flash wasn't designed to run on.

Flash was designed with the increase of processor performance on computers in mind, not these underpowered hand held devices.

It shouldn't take a modern multi-core desktop to render a web page.

Flash is the PowerPoint of the Internet. When I come across a Flash-filled page, my thought is "I don't care about your stupid intro, effects, or eye candy. Just show me the content."

The sooner Flash dies, the better.
post #38 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

The funny part about this entire HTML5 and Adobe Flash issue is its a non issue for most users. Its only an issue for Safari users. The rest of the world could care less if HTML5 or Flash is used as long as their video works.

Jobs is the only one with the bug up his a$$ because Flash isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Wrong!

Flash really sucks! I have an iMac that I share with my wife and three kids! Most of the time we are all logged on and the _only_ time it gets bogged down is when one of my kids leaves a Flash based website up on their login (either Safari or Firefox)! All I do when I notice that its getting slow is login to my kids accounts and kill the Flash page and then the system returns to normal functionality!

I for one applaud Jobs stance on Flash! It's old technology that is buggy and a CPU pig!

KRR
post #39 of 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woohoo! View Post

So all you did was stop the auto-loading of multiple tabbed YouTube videos in Safari so only one loads at a time with ClicktoFlash.

Sounds like he was choking his bandwidth, not a Flash issue.

comparing activity monitor's CPU info showed that it was flash and not bandwidth. bandwidth here is fine. same happend with single windows attempting to load one flash intro. device came to a standstill. hardly bandwidth either.
post #40 of 284
Steve probably hates Flash because it makes Macs run like crap. We can assume Steve is a Mac user. He probably uses Safari. He probably surfs the web.

Thus, Steve probably notices the massive memory leaks and incomplete wipes that bring his Mac to a crawl. He has to restart his Mac because Flash sucks so much, blimping Safari up above 750MB of processor intensive Adobe blubber, wallowing in its own nasty digital shame.

If those engineers worked for Steve, he would fire them. This HTML5 effort is Steve's chosen way to solve this usability problem for everyone. He's trying to do his job... safeguard the user experience. He's a perfectionist. Certain aspects of the Mac are perfect. Flash is one of the biggest problems in the Mac system intergrity today. Steve is trying to kill it. Pretty simple.
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