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Inside Apple's iPad: Adobe Flash - Page 10

post #361 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patranus View Post

Watch "Activity Monitor" with YouTube.

2.8 GHz C2D MBP hits 50% with Flash video.
With the same video it hits less 15% with HTML5.

What does that say about Flahs?

Fully agree .

will the porn industry change to HTML5?
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post #362 of 563
Flash was designed with the intention that computers would get faster, not slower.

Apple and netbook makers are producing what people want, and they want cheap web/email/word processing type computers and devices instead of large bulky, powerful, power hungry portable devices like laptops.

Unfortunately it's hard to reverse course once you make a standard like Flash.

It all has to do with games, higher quality 3D games mostly, going to consoles mostly instead of computers. Means most people don't need a powerful computer anymore.

Anything that needs a lot of performance can be either done on a desktop machine or "cloud computing" from a smaller portable device if need be.

All has to with the thermal wall being reached in processor performance.


So Flash needs a rewrite to run on smaller processor devices and touchscreens, like the iPad.

In fact a lot of websites will have to be updated to have the iPad version of Flash content so it can be interacted with correctly.


Just to let everyone know, someone made Photoshop 1.0 run on a iPhone...

So it's possible, it's just going to take time. No use crying, the iPad was just announced it's no wonder Flash isn't allowed on the device.

Eventually it will, if the device sells well.
post #363 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Interesting points and welcome to the forum. I agree that ads will have to switch from being Flash to webcode, but I have my doubts about ClickToFlash or its equivalent will be added to Safari, though I hope you are correct. Would there not be any anti-trust ramifications if Apple, Google, MS and Mozilla started offering that as part of the browser?

Early browsers had the option to load images automatically or only when user requested. There are preferences for enabling java or javascript or pop-up windows. Enabling flash by default or by user request seems exactly the same kind of user control option. So, no, I don't think there are any anti-trust issues.

Why would Apple not add ClickToFlash type functionality to Safari? What would be the downside for them?
post #364 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkhm View Post

And when was the last time you bought a device with a firewire 400 connections which didn't also offer USB-2 or firewire 800?

And what exactly do you slide into that express card slot, can only speak from UK experience, but every wireless provider in the UK offers their services via a USB dongle...

My Intel iMac has no firewire 800 connection. Probably didn't exist yet. My wife had the misfortune of pulling the trigger on a new MacBook pro when Apple decided the world didn't need firewire 400 anymore.

I guess the next product I buy wont have firewire or USB or express card or a DVD drive or flash or a matte screen. It will be called an iPad, a revolutionary device that will change the world and put Apple's stock over 300.
post #365 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

And why not? If Steve Jobs wants to force people to go beyond Adobe Flash, he should force real Mac users to stop using Flash altogether by banning Flash from MacOS X 10.5.x and 10.6.x versions.

Why not just go to http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/141/tn_14157.html and uninstall flash on your computer. There - now you no longer have to deal with it without deciding for the rest of the Mac world what they should / should not have on their computers.
post #366 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulk001 View Post

Why not just go to http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/141/tn_14157.html and uninstall flash on your computer. There - now you no longer have to deal with it without deciding for the rest of the Mac world what they should / should not have on their computers.

Yes but unfortunately doing that yields a compromised computer much like the Chinese stripped of Google.
post #367 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Where I do not understand you though is why this is justification for either outlawing flash (which is what the effect would be if HTML 5 were made the industry standard) or why Adobe should voluntary give up a revenue stream to make Mac users happy.

Are you suggesting that HTML 5 should not be approved as an open standard because it would harm Adobe if there was an alternative to Flash?

If the standard is finalized, approved and subsequently takes hold no one owes Adobe anything. There would be nothing to keep them from creating a suite of awesome tools to design for the web using open standards. They would need to either adapt or move on.
post #368 of 563
This whole topic could have been avoided if SJ and Apple had given us a mini Mac notebook instead of another iTunes handheld device -this time just larger.
post #369 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by felipur View Post

Early browsers had the option to load images automatically or only when user requested. There are preferences for enabling java or javascript or pop-up windows. Enabling flash by default or by user request seems exactly the same kind of user control option. So, no, I don't think there are any anti-trust issues.

Why would Apple not add ClickToFlash type functionality to Safari? What would be the downside for them?

I'm not so sure. First of all, all those items came well before Safari was developed. Secondly, Jobs and Apple have already talked about how Flash in disparaging ways and are trying to promote good, free alternatives. They might not win but I can certainly see this being an issue of Apple illegally using it's position to hurt Flash while promoting options it has a vested interest it.

Apple's rebuttal could be that they do still ship makes with Flash installed and that the reason for the images, java, and JS on/off options are for bandwidth and/or security. Apple could also argue that the Plug-ins on/off option doesn't allow Flash to be used at all if that is turned off and that a comprehensive option would allow the best of both world for users and Adobe.

It would be great if it happens but I see some pitfalls for the first to offer it. The best way to make it natural is for the lesser browsers to include support first making it an copycat option for more popular browsers.
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post #370 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I see what you're saying, but that isn't a message to send. Macs can handle Flash, albeit much more poorly than HTML5 video tag for the same function. Flash wasn't designed for mobiles and Adobe dropped on the ball on development so it makes absolute sense not to include it there, but that doesn't mean Flash can't run on the desktop and doesn't have uses on the desktop. Let's not forget that the way Flash interacts with the user is by and large designed for a mouse and keyboard, not a finger-based touchscreen which makes most of the Flash world inaccessible for even Windows tablets.

Like many on this forum, I have Flash installed with ClickToFlash installed to control it. Not installing Flash on Macs would mean another thing to install on a new Mac. I listened to BBC Radio 1 all morning with Flash. It was taking 100%/200% across two-core for several hours for 48Kbps HE-AAC audio but that is that. If I were using just the battery Id get 1hr:37min out of a brand new 4400mAh battery. Not good!

edit: I just found an unofficial Dashboard Wdiget for BBC Radio. Reduced my load to 5%. Awesome!

http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashb...nofficial.html

Thanks for the link.
post #371 of 563
If you want Flash buy a notebook or a netbook. I don't know what the problem is. It's not like anyone needs an iPad.
post #372 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by isuldor View Post

Are you suggesting that HTML 5 should not be approved as an open standard because it would harm Adobe if there was an alternative to Flash?

If the standard is finalized, approved and subsequently takes hold no one owes Adobe anything. There would be nothing to keep them from creating a suite of awesome tools to design for the web using open standards. They would need to either adapt or move on.

It's not as if Adobe doesn't have the talent for SVG/OpenVG and rich multimedia development to produce the tools of choice.
post #373 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

some of it is frustration, some of it is the truth. I understand why SJ doesn't want Flash on his products. From Apple's point of view, it makes perfect sense, and at a certain level I agree with him.

OTOH, for most of the posters here, the issue is that Flash sucks of a Mac, and admittedly it is not great. I understand the frustration. I also understand the desire for something new. But I also think that if Flash ran as well under Mac as it does Windows, 99% of the people here would not have a complaint.

People have given a variety of reasons, but in the end, the overwhelming majority come back to the reason that Flash sucks on a Mac, even for people who give those other reasons.

However, I don't think that because it stinks on a Mac (and as I have said I own Macs, and an iPhone), that gives me the right to state that Flash should be eliminated from the web by some standards board, or that Adobe should simply give up Flash, as some have advocated. I do not think that my displeasure as a Mac user should force the vast majority of computer users (i.e., Windows) to give up their current experience on the web. I do not think that a company should be deprived of a revenue stream because I do not have an optimal experience. If Adobe does not want to spend the money and resources to optimize the code for a Mac, that is their decision and their right, just as it is Apple's right not to allow Flash on the iPhone, etc.

OTOH, If Flash really is that bad then someone will develop a better alternative, and that will supplant Flash.

You keep harping on Standards Boards eliminating Flash from the web. There is no mandate that you adhere to any web standards whatsoever. For God's sake the LARGEST browser market share is held by the least standards compliant browser on the planet.
post #374 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by pt123 View Post

He doesn't dislike it as much as you think. His beloved Disney owned websites (Disney, ABC, ESPN) has lots of Flash video. It is just a rally cry to get people to buy from his iTunes store.

I would not be surprised that Jobs--being on the Disney board of directors--starts to "twist some arms" to force Disney.com, ABC.com, ABCNews.com and ESPN.com to move in the direction of HTML 5.0 compliance. Given Disney.com and ESPN.com are some of the most highly-trafficked sites on the Internet in the USA, making these sites go HTML 5.0 compliant would certainly set the precedent for everyone else to go HTML 5.0 compliant.
post #375 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyrenob View Post

90% of you on here are complete morons and are blinded by what Jobs/Apple dictates.

Soooo let's get this out of the way first, I think Apple computers are superior, I think the company is the best out there, but come on...

Flash/Flex is a development platform and a superior one at that. Have fun doing this w/W3C Compliant XHTML/CSS or javascript:

http://www.bluecollaragency.com/

or this:

http://okaydave.com/

or this:

http://iso50.com/iso50.html

and there are hundreds of other examples out there as good as these that use Flash/Flex as their chosen development platform.

So many of you on here are like "NOOOOOOOOOO FLASH IS SOOOOOO BAD!!!!!" when I think a lot of you have no experience with the platform. It's not that hard to learn, unless you are stupid; Action Script has some fundamentals in Object Oriented Programming - oh, but wait, you dumb ass CSS/XHTML developers have little knowledge of that don't you? C++, Java, etc. is stupid isn't it? More than likely you don't have the ability to comprehend it.

Visual design is influenced by motion graphics, so get over it. Flash isn't the standard for web design and will never be, but admit that it will do some things better than HTML5-10-20 or whatever.

The same people on here who bitch about Flash complain, endlessly, about Photoshop and Illustrator and these are incredible tools. Like they are too hard to use or something? I've read a lot of Adobe hate this week, well here is something positive. LEARN SOMETHING from a great resource about how awesome Adobe tools can be:

http://veerle.duoh.com/

Interesting you would post these. How exactly would those mouse overs work on a touch screen device. Performance may not be the only reason supporting Flash might not provide the best experience on the iPhone or iPad.
post #376 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by isuldor View Post

If the standard is finalized, approved and subsequently takes hold no one owes Adobe anything. There would be nothing to keep them from creating a suite of awesome tools to design for the web using open standards. They would need to either adapt or move on.

As a refresher to anyone who may have forgotten, SWF is now an open format. Adobe's moneymaker for Flash is from Flash CS4 Professional for$699 or Creative Suite 4 Web Premium for $1,699.

It might behoove Adobe to consider the future of the web and use their clever employees create the first good way to great content using aspects of HTML5 that have taken hold in WebKit- and Gecko-based browsers. For instance, making it a one step process for web developers to have HTML5 video tags in a site with the proper the JS and CSS code with a few simple options on the look and feel with a fallback to Flash built in for older browsers.

[CENTER]Universal Business Motto:
If you can't beat em', at least profit from 'em. [/CENTER]
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post #377 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

What vested interest?

Take a look at this web page:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/

Note the name of one of the editors of this document: David Hyatt, Apple, Inc. As such, this demonstrates vested interest by Apple in getting HTML 5.0 adopted as a standard by the W3C.
post #378 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

First question: Are you using a Mac? That might be it. They have problems surfing the 'web. They crash when viewing many popular websites.

How about a couple of examples ... No porn please.
post #379 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by isuldor View Post

You keep harping on Standards Boards eliminating Flash from the web. There is no mandate that you adhere to any web standards whatsoever. For God's sake the LARGEST browser market share is held by the least standards compliant browser on the planet.

This was cleared up last night, and was based on a misunderstanding on my part. I come from a field (biomedicine) where the term "industry standards/standard of care/best practices" are required, not optional. Apparently for the computer industry the term "industry standard" really means "industry guidelines/suggestions".
post #380 of 563
Great, so can you suggest an alternative Flash player to Adobe's product?

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As a refresher to anyone who may have forgotten, SWF is now an open format. Adobe's moneymaker for Flash is from Flash CS4 Professional for$699 or Creative Suite 4 Web Premium for $1,699.

It might behoove Adobe to consider the future of the web and use their clever employees create the first good way to great content using aspects of HTML5 that have taken hold in WebKit- and Gecko-based browsers. For instance, making it a one step process for web developers to have HTML5 video tags in a site with the proper the JS and CSS code with a few simple options on the look and feel with a fallback to Flash built in for older browsers.

[CENTER]Universal Business Motto:
If you can't beat em', at least profit from 'em. [/CENTER]
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post #381 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I would not be surprised that Jobs--being on the Disney board of directors--starts to "twist some arms" to force Disney.com, ABC.com, ABCNews.com and ESPN.com to move in the direction of HTML 5.0 compliance. Given Disney.com and ESPN.com are some of the most highly-trafficked sites on the Internet in the USA, making these sites go HTML 5.0 compliant would certainly set the precedent for everyone else to go HTML 5.0 compliant.

Disney revamped their site long ago to idealize it for mobiles. ESPN and ABC News have mobile versions. ABC.com oddly doesn't appear to have one. All the videos I've tested on those mobile sites play on the iPhone.

However, moving the main pages to support HTML5 first and fallback to Flash if the browser doesn't support the elements would be nice. Once the code for the HTML5 video tag gets worked out I suspect the change will be fast in technology terms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by isuldor View Post

Interesting you would post these. How exactly would those mouse overs work on a touch screen device. Performance may not be the only reason supporting Flash might not provide the best experience on the iPhone or iPad.

You wouldn't. This is a separate, but major issue. I can't wait for Flash 10.1 to go live on mobiles so we can see the poor reviews on usability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

Note the name of one of the editors of this document: David Hyatt, Apple, Inc. As such, this demonstrates vested interest by Apple in getting HTML 5.0 adopted as a standard by the W3C.

Those are just the editors. You have to expect they would be working for the best companies out there. It would be funny to see "Webmaster, Digg.com".

Here is the member list, which consisted of 334 companies as of February 2010, including Adobe. Wikipedia states the number of members was 355 back in September 2009.
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
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post #382 of 563
And?

HTML 5 will be an open standard, anyone will be able to create it using such simple tools as a text editor.

Adobe is also contributing (sort of) to the standards body.

Your point?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

Take a look at this web page:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/

Note the name of one of the editors of this document: David Hyatt, Apple, Inc. As such, this demonstrates vested interest by Apple in getting HTML 5.0 adopted as a standard by the W3C.
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post #383 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by jawporta View Post

If you want Flash buy a notebook or a netbook. I don't know what the problem is.

Is that what the shoppers will be told at the iSore?
post #384 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by isuldor View Post

How about a couple of examples ... No porn please.

I don't know the specifics - I'm just repeating what Steve told us.
post #385 of 563
I don't know, why don't u go take an aspirin if uSore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Is that what the shoppers will be told at the iSore?
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post #386 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No doubt

3) Let's examine what people want Flash for. Games and apps? Nearly all of them won't work because they were designed for a mouse and keyboard, not a touchscreen. Flash ads? Come on! Video? Still gonna happen with most sites as video processing and streaming will need it's own resources that Flash is already sucking.

You are simplifying things a bit too much.

I don't care about Flash games - I'm surrounded with gaming options, both portable and at home. Likewise, I have managed to find all the apps I was ever looking for, be it paid or freeware. Ads, I'm not interested. Video... well YouTube works and that is majority of video for me, at least on mobile platform.

Yet I need Flash. For example, I'm looking for a new car these days. I have been driving Nissan for a while, yet I like Subaru for some reasons, so those two would be my first choice.

Except that if you go to subaru.co.nz or nissan.co.nz, you will not get far. Try with your iPhone or computer with disabled Flash and you'll see what I'm talking about. Honda, Mazda, Toyota, Ford, Holden... are better, having some Flash material but still browsable to a certain amount - yet much of multimedia content is Flash (car interior and exterior features, galleries etc). I still haven't check on local sites (NZ) for Euro brands.

I'm still finding that acceptable for iPhone. Screen is too small to be cluttered with too much media. I prefer text content on iPhone when browsing. But on device like iPad? I'd like to, when I get back home from work, stretch on my fav sofa or recliner, grab iPad from coffee table and do some car research. Not being able to see all info would result in my growing frustration and finally in replacing iPad with netbook or ULV notebook, even if I prefer iPad's format for casual browsing.

(Speaking of which, for such research I'd also prefer multitasking so that I can open, say, Word/Pages or Excel/Numbers together with my web browser and copy/paste some info into my car candidates comparison table... but this is not topic of this discussion).


Eventually, it is like saying (exaggeration warning!): "I don't like polluted city air, so I don't want to breathe it". I have option to leave city, which I don't want - my family, friends and job are in the city - or to stop inhaling polluted air - which would be another way to loose family, friends and job - life included - in the process. So no matter how much I despise polluted air, I simply need to use it until someone manages to fix it - or come out with new oxygen distribution process.

Likewise, I'm all for scrapping Flash for something leaner and fresher and better, but until that happens, I just need it.

There is one more thing - conspiracy theory (or not) behind Apple's real motives for excluding Flash from iDevices. We all know what they are (no matter if we believe or not), and this article rounds them nicely. I'd give it some credit as it comes from Jason Mick, who has history of a lot of Apple bias in the past:

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=17738
post #387 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Great, so can you suggest an alternative Flash player to Adobe's product?

I'm not following. In what regard? I already stated one possible use for Adobe to keep making money by selling complete web development kits with a fall back dependancy on Flash.
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post #388 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

I don't know the specifics - I'm just repeating what Steve told us.

lol- Remember iSteve told us Blu-ray was a bag of hurt yet the consumer did the exact opposite of his recommendation and Blu-ray has sold thru the roof this past holiday season.
post #389 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

This was cleared up last night, and was based on a misunderstanding on my part. I come from a field (biomedicine) where the term "industry standards/standard of care/best practices" are required, not optional. Apparently for the computer industry the term "industry standard" really means "industry guidelines/suggestions".

I see that now ... just catching up is all
post #390 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow View Post

Serial port and parallel port were a reality. Floppy drives were a reality. Someone had to push the progress forward

Even today, serial ports exist on Enterprise grade equipment - firewalls, switches... for console access.

Likewise, business grade laptops - even new models - still have serial port exactly for being able to interface with above mentioned appliances on console level.

Serial port disappeared from mainstream because it aged and better alternatives appeared, pushing whole industry to better, faster standards. Likewise, desktop hard drive interfaces - much as I remember - moved from MFM and RLL to IDE to SATA to... because technology was evolving. And RAM evolved from SDRAM to DDR to DDR2 to DDR3 to...

Believing that one brand (and minority one, market-share wise) can push whole industry around is really buying into reality distortion... \
post #391 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

You are simplifying things a bit too much.
[...]

That is an excellent argument but I only broke things down into the core elements. I've stated numerous times that Flash has its place and can be very useful, but a small finger-based touchscreen with a slow ARM processor is currently not of them.

The fact remains that Flash isn't the internet, Adobe hasn't yet released a viable version of Flash for mobile devices which would make those sites come up or be usable if they did, and iDevices aren't personal computers, but accessories to them.

I find it very interesting that subaru.co.nz is nearly all Flash but subaru.com has no Flash.
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post #392 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEKSTUD View Post

lol- Remember iSteve told us Blu-ray was a bag of hurt yet the consumer did the exact opposite of his recommendation and Blu-ray has sold thru the roof this past holiday season.

Where are your stats?
How do Blu-ray movie sales compare to Blu-ray movie sales?
What is the growth of, say, Netflix streaming?
How many of those Blu-ray players were sold in computers?
How much do 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-loading Blu-ray writers cost, anyway?
Who's making them?
You've never gotten away with counting Blu-ray appliances for home entertainment systems in you foolish claims so why do you think you will now?

PS: It's great that you can never have a well reasoned argument. At least I know something in this world isn't changing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Believing that one brand (and minority one, market-share wise) can push whole industry around is really buying into reality distortion... \

A couple historical points. The floppy drive was entrenched until Apple removed them all. USB didn't take off until after Apple added it across the board. The smartphone industry was lingering until Apple entered the market. WebKit has become the most popular internet browser. And just look at everything MS does to make Windows more Mac OS-like. Et alii, at cetera, ad nauseam.
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post #393 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEKSTUD View Post

lol- Remember iSteve told us Blu-ray was a bag of hurt yet the consumer did the exact opposite of his recommendation and Blu-ray has sold thru the roof this past holiday season.

while I agree with you on some points that you raise here, Blu-Ray was and/is still a world of hurt.

I have been an audiophile/HT type for close to 30 years. I used to visit the major HT forums, and this whole Flash/Apple debate is like Sunday tea between sisters compared to the whole Blu-Ray / HD DVD fiasco.
post #394 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Where are your stats?
How do Blu-ray movie sales compare to Blu-ray movie sales?
What is the growth of, say, Netflix streaming?
How many of those Blu-ray players were sold in computers?
How much do 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-loading Blu-ray writers cost, anyway?
Who's making them?
You've never gotten away with counting Blu-ray appliances for home entertainment systems in you foolish claims so why do you think you will now?

PS: It's great that you can never have a well reasoned argument. At least I know something in this world isn't changing.
.[/I]

Someone needs a vacation- FAST.
post #395 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

while I agree with you on some points that you raise here, Blu-Ray was and/is still a world of hurt.

I have been an audiophile/HT type for close to 30 years. I used to visit the major HT forums, and this whole Flash/Apple debate is like Sunday tea between sisters compared to the whole Blu-Ray / HD DVD fiasco.

As an audiofile- you don't like Blu-ray??? It has by far the best sound since Laser disc- better than CD and leap years beyond DVD.
post #396 of 563
If Adobe has released the swf format as open source then developers should be able to come up with their own players for it, should they not?

In much the same way as alternatives now exist to Adobes Acrobat Reader application for PDF files.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm not following. In what regard? I already stated one possible use for Adobe to keep making money by selling complete web development kits with a fall back dependancy on Flash.
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post #397 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEKSTUD View Post

As an audiofile- you don't like Blu-ray??? It has by far the best sound since Laser disc- better than CD and leap years beyond DVD.


Well, for my music system at home, I listen to either vinyl or SACD.

For my computer system, I have everything ripped as WAV or Apple Lossless, and I run it through Headroom's Total Bithead.

http://www.headphone.com/headphone-a...al-bithead.php

to some Grado Headphones.

So, Blu-Ray is irrelevant for music for me.
post #398 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

Well, for my music system at home, I listen to either vinyl or SACD.

For my computer system, I have everything ripped as WAV or Apple Lossless, and I run it through Headroom's Total Bithead.

http://www.headphone.com/headphone-a...al-bithead.php

to some Grado Headphones.

So, Blu-Ray is irrelevant for music for me.

OK- I hear you- but for the combo of audio/video, it can't be beat. Nothing else comes close.
post #399 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEKSTUD View Post

OK- I hear you- but for the combo of audio/video, it can't be beat. Nothing else comes close.

yes, for movies Blu-Ray is better than DVD, but I am not convinced it was better than HD DVD which lost that format war.
post #400 of 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEKSTUD View Post

Someone needs a vacation- FAST.

So when you take yours, be sure not to write.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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