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Inside Apple's iPad: Adobe Flash - Page 14

post #521 of 573
2/22/10 at 10:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill View Post

I use clicktoflash for Safari, and I'm extremely aware of the use of Flash on the internet. I just don't care for most of the content that is distributed using it, and also don't care for the experience of it either.

I consider that owning an iPad that is Flash free will bolster the numbers of non Flash users seen in website statistics and will help to contribute to its eventual demise.

I'm also totally serious about buying an iPad, and will almost certainly get one refurb.


Edit: Believe it or not, I became more aware of how prevalent Flash is after I started using clicktoflash.

Good for you! (Seriously) You will be an informed buyer.

It is not that I am a fan of Flash, because I am not, but because I am unable to access far too many websites without it. If Flash were to go "poof" and disappear tomorrow I would not be in the slightest bit upset. In a few days the websites would be doing something different and we could all get on to the content we are after without dealing with this problem.

Unfortunately, Flash will not go away because of Steve, Apple or the iPad. The only way Steve can rid the 'net of Flash is to buy Adobe and slay the "dragon up close and personal". He would enjoy that!
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post #522 of 573
2/22/10 at 10:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBR View Post

Good for you! (Seriously) You will be an informed buyer.

It is not that I am a fan of Flash, because I am not, but because I am unable to access far too many websites without it. If Flash were to go "poof" and disappear tomorrow I would not be in the slightest bit upset. In a few days the websites would be doing something different and we could all get on to the content we are after without dealing with this problem.

Unfortunately, Flash will not go away because of Steve, Apple or the iPad. The only way Steve can rid the 'net of Flash is to buy Adobe and slay the "dragon up close and personal". He would enjoy that!

I don't get why anything about making the web better is automatically an Apple-centric comment about eliminating Flash from the planet. Have we forgotten that Microsoft, Mozilla and Google, to name a few are also working on alternatives to supporting Flash because of its many problems?
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #523 of 573
2/22/10 at 10:45pm
Demo of Flash 10.1 Running on Nexus One: http://vimeo.com/9596010
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #524 of 573
2/22/10 at 10:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Demo of Flash 10.1 Running on Nexus One: http://vimeo.com/9596010

Does the demo require Flash?
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post #525 of 573
2/22/10 at 10:57pm
No it doesn't, it plays perfectly fine on my iPhone, better in fact than what was being shown on the Nexus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill View Post

Does the demo require Flash?

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #526 of 573
2/22/10 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

No it doesn't, it plays perfectly fine on my iPhone, better in fact than what was being shown on the Nexus.

I can't wait for Flash 10.1 to be officially released for mobiles so we can see all the comparative tests of speed of loading video, usability of the majority of unaltered flash sites and the battery usage.

From that video it appears that battery indicator drops from 50% to 25% in about 5 minutes time. The performance looks remarkable over previous Flash 10.1 demos and even compared to Flash 9.x.x and 10.0.x on netbooks.
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #527 of 573
2/23/10 at 4:57am
I still think if Adobe proves that Flash 10.1--which offloads Flash code processing to the GPU to reduce CPU usage--has little effect on overall battery performance, we may be heading for a potential legal showdown over Flash on the iPad as a violation of the Clayton Antitrust Act by Apple. Now that will be a case that could last for years. And I'm sure the aggressive antitrust authorities of the European Union are watching, too.
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post #528 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I still think if Adobe proves that Flash 10.1--which offloads Flash code processing to the GPU to reduce CPU usage--has little effect on overall battery performance, we may be heading for a potential legal showdown over Flash on the iPad as a violation of the Clayton Antitrust Act by Apple. Now that will be a case that could last for years. And I'm sure the aggressive antitrust authorities of the European Union are watching, too.

Really? Why Apple and not Adobe? Adobe's Flash is on almost all computing devices that use the web, isn't that a bigger anti-trust concern? It sounds like a double standard here, you want to pick on the the company with the smaller market share and leave the one with a bigger market share alone.

You can buy other brand tablets and phones to look at the web, many of which offer Flash compatibility. There aren't any alternative implementations to Flash, it has to be Adobe's plug-in or nothing. Tell me, which is really a bigger anti-trust problem? I think it's more likely that you're angry at Apple.
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post #529 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

What's fugly to some, is "the best web browsing experience" to others.

I look forward to buying an iPad and enjoying the best web browsing experience, unencumbered by stinking, useless Adobe Flash™.

I'd like to run Lynx on an iPad. Now THAT would be the "best"! No pictures, no animation, no nothing except words...
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post #530 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:36am
JeffDM,

Remember, Apple will soon come close to treading on legal thin ice by deliberately banning Flash from the iPad--especially if Adobe proves the upcoming Flash 10.1 will have little effect on the battery life of the iPad. The fact one of the editors of the current W3C draft document on HTML 5.0 is an Apple employee sounds really fishy, because Apple could afoul of the Clayton Antitrust Act over this--not to mention EU antitrust authorities!

If Apple at WWDC 2010 announces the rollout of HTML 5.0 development tools, including converting Flash programming calls to its HTML 5.0 equivalents, then I wouldn't be so concerned, since that means a lot less need to recode pages from scratch (and the expense involved!) in HTML 5.0 compatible form.
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post #531 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Even better, make Flash disabled by default for clueless people,

That's not Apple's style. If something might get clueless people into trouble, Apple just eliminates it completely.
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post #532 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Besides that there is also an issue with games and apps and website working on touchscreen when they were designed for a mouse and keyboard.

Isn't that the real reason? A touchscreen device is NOT the best way to access the 'web. Not yet, anyways...

I think that all the other points are red herrings.

Right now, a touchscreen device does not work well on many popular websites, and Apple is marketing the 'Pad as the best way to access the 'web.

It might be that Apple is premature in its release of a tablet 'web device. It has happened a zillion times before that great stuff is just too far ahead of its time.
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post #533 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill View Post


In fact, I'll be waiting for the Flashtards to return their iPads so that I can get the nice refurb price from the Apple Store.

I don't think that Joe Shmoe could be considered a Flashtard, but I think that his 'Pad might get returned when he finds that it is NOT the best way to surf the 'net.
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post #534 of 573
2/23/10 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Demo of Flash 10.1 Running on Nexus One: http://vimeo.com/9596010

I'm not sure why you posted that link. It looks like Flash 10.1 works just fine.

I certainly would rather have that stuff available to me than not.

Did you feel that the demo showed poor performance?
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post #535 of 573
2/23/10 at 6:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

JeffDM,

Remember, Apple will soon come close to treading on legal thin ice by deliberately banning Flash from the iPad--especially if Adobe proves the upcoming Flash 10.1 will have little effect on the battery life of the iPad.

But why isn't Adobe treading on thin ice? It's Adobe that has a monopoly position with the Web, 98% of web devices have their player software. You can't use non-Adobe flash interpreters, Adobe shuts them down if they get anywhere. You can choose to buy non-Apple devices that can access the web, but you're still stuck with a Flash monopoly. I don't think your position holds water on this issue, it still ignores the elephant in this supposed anti trust room.

Quote:
The fact one of the editors of the current W3C draft document on HTML 5.0 is an Apple employee sounds really fishy, because Apple could afoul of the Clayton Antitrust Act over this--not to mention EU antitrust authorities!

How many Adobe employees are involved with making that document? Adobe is in the W3C too. For a system that might be competing with their own products. You don't see any possible anti-trust issues with that?
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post #536 of 573
2/23/10 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't get why anything about making the web better is automatically an Apple-centric comment about eliminating Flash from the planet. Have we forgotten that Microsoft, Mozilla and Google, to name a few are also working on alternatives to supporting Flash because of its many problems?

Then allow me to explain it. The iPad is an Apple product. ;-)
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post #537 of 573
2/23/10 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I still think if Adobe proves that Flash 10.1--which offloads Flash code processing to the GPU to reduce CPU usage--has little effect on overall battery performance, we may be heading for a potential legal showdown over Flash on the iPad as a violation of the Clayton Antitrust Act by Apple. Now that will be a case that could last for years. And I'm sure the aggressive antitrust authorities of the European Union are watching, too.

What is keeping Apple from offloading Flash to the second CPU or even GPU with some variation of Grand Central Dispatch which specifically identifies Flash and the CPU says "over there big boy while I take care of business".

Oh, they didn't try. Did they even try something akin to Flashblock which would allow the user to allow Flash as needed, having been warned that it would reduce performance. I doubt it. Steve just doesn't want it.
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post #538 of 573
2/23/10 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

I'm not sure why you posted that link. It looks like Flash 10.1 works just fine.

I certainly would rather have that stuff available to me than not.

Did you feel that the demo showed poor performance?

Why wouldn't I post it, I only care about the truth. I never said Adobe couldn't fix their problems, I said Flash was designed for mobiles and Adobe dropped the ball a long time ago. The pressure from 3 years of Flash being replaced by open standards has made them get off their asses, which is typical.

It's a relevant demonstration of Adobe finally making Flash better for the mobile space, over 3 years after people started blaming Apple for the lack of Flash. Note that the battery shows a 25% drop in 5 minutes, there are usability issues, and the Nexus One is a much newer phone running a new ARM at 1GHz, not the 400MHz people said would work great in the iPhone.

Try actually reading this. Maybe you'll stop get an idea of Adobe's issues with Flash: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=292


Quote:
Originally Posted by RBR View Post

Then allow me to explain it. The iPad is an Apple product. ;-)

So you don't care who else is trying to make a better internet by avoiding Flash in places, just so long as pooh pooh Apple at every turn. Do you know what those posters are called?
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #539 of 573
2/23/10 at 10:02am
So will they go after Blackberry too?

You know, for also "NOT ALLOWING" Adobe Flash on their platform either.

When Adobe makes it, as Jobs asked for in 2007, then Apple can accept or reject it until then they are in the same position as RIM, snubbed by Adobe who are buck-passing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I still think if Adobe proves that Flash 10.1--which offloads Flash code processing to the GPU to reduce CPU usage--has little effect on overall battery performance, we may be heading for a potential legal showdown over Flash on the iPad as a violation of the Clayton Antitrust Act by Apple. Now that will be a case that could last for years. And I'm sure the aggressive antitrust authorities of the European Union are watching, too.


The somewhat overlooked fact that there is no version of Adobe Flash™ available for iPhone OS, to be run on the CPU, GPU or whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBR View Post

What is keeping Apple from offloading Flash to the second CPU or even GPU with some variation of Grand Central Dispatch which specifically identifies Flash and the CPU says "over there big boy while I take care of business".

Oh, they didn't try. Did they even try something akin to Flashblock which would allow the user to allow Flash as needed, having been warned that it would reduce performance. I doubt it. Steve just doesn't want it.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #540 of 573
2/23/10 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

Remember, Apple will soon come close to treading on legal thin ice by deliberately banning Flash from the iPad--especially if Adobe proves the upcoming Flash 10.1 will have little effect on the battery life of the iPad. The fact one of the editors of the current W3C draft document on HTML 5.0 is an Apple employee sounds really fishy, because Apple could afoul of the Clayton Antitrust Act over this--not to mention EU antitrust authorities!

You're off base here. Apple is under no obligation to support Adobe's technology on any or all of their products. Period. Just like they were under no obligation to support wma on the iPod. Remember the famous lawsuit when Microsoft sued Apple for that? Oh wait, it never happened.

The point about the Apple employee who authored an HTML5 document for W3C. Are you the one that keeps harping on that? Apple is a member of that industry group along with Adobe and dozens of other companies. That's how industry standards groups work, and always have. Apple is a member, state their support for the HTML5 project publicly, and contribute expertise and manpower to the effort. If there's anything suspicious going on here, it's Adobe's alleged sabotage of the HTML5 review and approval process.
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post #541 of 573
2/23/10 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I still think if Adobe proves that Flash 10.1--which offloads Flash code processing to the GPU to reduce CPU usage--has little effect on overall battery performance, we may be heading for a potential legal showdown over Flash on the iPad as a violation of the Clayton Antitrust Act by Apple. Now that will be a case that could last for years. And I'm sure the aggressive antitrust authorities of the European Union are watching, too.

This is, of course, total horsesh*t.

Start by learning a little bit about antitrust law. Apple doesn't have a monopoly and even if they did, they have no obligation to carry every product from every software developer out there. There is absolutely ZERO legal principle supporting that contention.

More importantly, if Adobe were actually able to get Flash running well on the iPhone with little impact on performance or battery life, Apple would almost certainly adopt it. Of course, given Adobe's history to do that over the past few years and the lousy performance of the 10.1 beta, Apple is unlikely ever to face that option.
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post #542 of 573
2/23/10 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Why wouldn't I post it, I only care about the truth. I never said Adobe couldn't fix their problems, I said Flash was designed for mobiles and Adobe dropped the ball a long time ago. The pressure from 3 years of Flash being replaced by open standards has made them get off their asses, which is typical.

It's a relevant demonstration of Adobe finally making Flash better for the mobile space, over 3 years after people started blaming Apple for the lack of Flash. Note that the battery shows a 25% drop in 5 minutes, there are usability issues, and the Nexus One is a much newer phone running a new ARM at 1GHz, not the 400MHz people said would work great in the iPhone.

Try actually reading this. Maybe you'll stop get an idea of Adobe's issues with Flash: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=292



So you don't care who else is trying to make a better internet by avoiding Flash in places, just so long as pooh pooh Apple at every turn. Do you know what those posters are called?

I know what you are called.
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post #543 of 573
2/23/10 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

So will they go after Blackberry too?

You know, for also "NOT ALLOWING" Adobe Flash on their platform either.

When Adobe makes it, as Jobs asked for in 2007, then Apple can accept or reject it until then they are in the same position as RIM, snubbed by Adobe who are buck-passing.




The somewhat overlooked fact that there is no version of Adobe Flash available for iPhone OS, to be run on the CPU, GPU or whatever.

Read up on Grand Central Dispatch The beauty of it is that it is not necessarily dependent upon an application being written or optimized for multi-core utilization. GCD does it for them (ideally).

Also greatly overlooked is the fact that Adobe® said (several years ago) that Apple® had everything they needed to implement Flash on the iPhone.
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post #544 of 573
2/23/10 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBR View Post

Also greatly overlooked is the fact that Adobe® said (several years ago) that Apple® had everything they needed to implement Flash on the iPhone.

And yet flash still isn't optimized for Mac OS X.
And yet Flash for Mac OS X still isn't 64-bit.
And yet Android, WebOS, Symbian, WinMo, BB OS, etc. still don't have Flash.

Perhaps you want to show us this great version of Flash for the iPhone from 2007 that somehow still isn't available for mobile or Mac OS X in 2010.
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post #545 of 573
2/23/10 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And yet flash still isn't optimized for Mac OS X.
And yet Flash for Mac OS X still isn't 64-bit.
And yet Android, WebOS, Symbian, WinMo, BB OS, etc. still don't have Flash.

Perhaps you want to show us this great version of Flash for the iPhone from 2007 that somehow still isn't available for mobile or Mac OS X in 2010.

Ask Steve. He is the one who promised "all the internet", not me.
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post #546 of 573
2/23/10 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBR View Post

As Steve. He is the one who promised "all the internet", not me.

He didn't promise that every plug-in and codec would be included. If you read it as such you are mistaken. Since browsers doesn't even support every open standard in CSS, HTML, etc. I guess there is not a single browser than can or will ever support "all the internet" based on your simple definition.
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post #547 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

He didn't promise that every plug-in and codec would be included. If you read it as such you are mistaken. Since browsers doesn't even support every open standard in CSS, HTML, etc. I guess there is not a single browser than can or will ever support "all the internet" based on your simple definition.

That's a lame excuse.

Steve lied. He promised "all the internet".
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post #548 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And yet flash still isn't optimized for Mac OS X.
And yet Flash for Mac OS X still isn't 64-bit.
And yet Android, WebOS, Symbian, WinMo, BB OS, etc. still don't have Flash.

Perhaps you want to show us this great version of Flash for the iPhone from 2007 that somehow still isn't available for mobile or Mac OS X in 2010.

Actually, Flash is in the new US retail version of the Motorola Devour (Android) running on a 600mhz Qualcomm chip. Its being sold by Best Buy for Verizon soon if not already released.
lmao internet
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lmao internet
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post #549 of 573
2/23/10 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill View Post

Agree that Apple is primarily using performance as an excuse to exclude Flash from their mobiles, and they are trying to kill it, but I don't believe it has anything to do with iTMS whatsoever.

That is FUD in my view. Apple's business model is and always has been about making their profit from selling hardware. Content is to make the hardware more desirable. Otherwise why would they encourage free apps?

Business models are prone to changes.

Apple's business model for ages was selling personal computers, yet at some point they started with mp3 players and phones... tablet comes next... and judging from another article here, they might have some more devices soon. That is already changing business model, and changing it big.

Yes they do have free apps out there, but it seems to me majority of them (useless fart apps etc. aside) are demo/lite versions of commercial, pay-for titles.

That aside, there is another thing - control. Not only that free Flash apps would impact Apps Store, but Apple would lose (some) control over what is being available for their platform.
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post #550 of 573
2/23/10 at 6:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by felipur View Post

Agreed that performance isn't the biggest reason for Apple's opposition to flash. I think the real reason is that Adobe poses a competitive risk to the iPhone platform.

Imagine flash becomes widespread in the mobile handset space in the next couple of years. By then, the smartphone market is likely a contest between iPhone and Android. As has been mentioned several times, Adobe can choose to spend it's engineering resources however it wants. Suppose, for whatever reason, Adobe decides to really make flash on Android the best thing ever and passes off each new release to a second-rate intern to do an iPhone port a couple months later.

Suddenly Apple is at a competitive disadvantage due to something they can't improve. Avoiding that situation is why Apple will never, ever allow flash on the iPhone/iPad unless it has absolutely no choice.

Adobe did the same thing to Apple back when Apple owned the desktop publishing market and Adobe decided to make the windows versions of its tools better than the Mac versions and release them sooner. Apple isn't going to let Adobe screw them twice.

If Adobe were serious about making flash an "internet standard", they would license it so Apple and others could do their own implementations. If that happened Apple might well develop a version of flash on the iPhone. However, Adobe have been quite clear that they wish to own flash and all the runtimes and have no intention of making it a standard.

Well... it is possible that Apple fears that, but I don't see that being real danger - considering that Apple has much bigger chunk of smartphone market (and, soon, tablet market - very likely) than they have from desktop market.

It is much easier to ignore or neglect Apple in PC domain that in mobile domain, and I don't think that will change any time soon.
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post #551 of 573
2/23/10 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous guy View Post

Actually, Flash is in the new US retail version of the Motorola Devour (Android) running on a 600mhz Qualcomm chip. Its being sold by Best Buy for Verizon soon if not already released.

That is Flash Lite. Nary a video site will work. Flash 10.1, the first full version of Flash for Android and other mobiles has yet to be released, but the last Nexus One demo looking pretty good even if did show a 25% battery drop in 5 minutes.
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post #552 of 573
2/24/10 at 8:03am
It's not just OS/X! Windows is no different - I have an HP notebook running XP that does exactly the same thing - I was using a site with Flash ads as my homepage - and had to stop. You'd walk into the house and hear the notebook's fan running upstairs - SIMPLY for the ads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickh View Post

It makes me so mad when I hear my little Macbook's fan running at 4000+ rpms (when it's closed and should be sleeping) only to open it up and find that I left a Safari tab open that has some Flash ads on it. Check the Activity Monitor, sure enough: Flash Player draining the life out of my computer. I think you have to have experienced Flash Player's poor performance to appreciate how Adobe has neglected us Mac users.

Just wanted to note that the Flash-Bashing video embedded in the article is brought to you in part by Flash.

Ironic.
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post #553 of 573
2/24/10 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't get why anything about making the web better is automatically an Apple-centric comment about eliminating Flash from the planet. Have we forgotten that Microsoft, Mozilla and Google, to name a few are also working on alternatives to supporting Flash because of its many problems?


Maybe I'm missing your point, but I think the issue is that though they're looking for alternatives, Microsoft, Mozilla and Google are currently making browsers that DO support Flash....I may hate the current weather outside, but until it changes, NOT bringing an umbrella only hurts me.... I really want to see Apple win this battle, I find Google creepy, but between the rumored negotiations with Hulu, and talks of lowering the price of TV shows to .99 through iTunes, I can't help but question whether this is about user experience or about trying to monetize as much of the web as possible.

What would be the disadvantage of having something like ClickToFlash on the iPad?

I'm sure this has been said before, but if Apple's own marketing team stumbled over a Flash interactive graphic on NYT in making the iPad demo, how can you argue it's unnecessary and extinct?

Goes back to Steve's mandate that it has to be "better than a laptop, better than a smart phone". Not having something like ClickToFlash just doesn't make sense....
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post #554 of 573
2/24/10 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swinge View Post

Maybe I'm missing your point, but I think the issue is that though they're looking for alternatives, Microsoft, Mozilla and Google are currently making browsers that DO support Flash..

Apple makes browsers that support Flash, too. They even had to go out of their way to make it possible for 32-bit plugins to work on a 64-bit browser so Flash would work in Snow Leopard. They could have pissed off Mac users and forced Adobe's hand, but Flash, depsite its issues, was designed for desktop OSes.

Flash has not been released for any mobile platform. It's just not Apple's fault that in 2010 Flash still isn't available on mobile browsers that have no restricitons on development.

PS: I never said it was unnecessary and extinct. Quite the contrary. I've said it's not ideal for a mobile platform and that is all Adobe's fault for sitting on their interactive and video monopoly without worrying about competitors. The only thing I said will happen is Flash will no longer increase it's video streaming in favour of HTML5 video.

Read this, it explains what Adobe did wrong, though you might want to hit Control+Option+Command+8 to reverse your colours: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=292
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post #555 of 573
2/24/10 at 10:50am
Yeah, sorry if my post came off as a bit of a rant... Really focused more at the Apple community as a whole and not you....

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Flash has not been released for any mobile platform. It's just not Apple's fault that in 2010 Flash still isn't available on mobile browsers that have no restrictions on development.

Is this true? I thought Flash currently ran on the HTC Hero: http://www.htc.com/www/press.aspx?id=103536&lang=1033 and was soon coming to the Nexus One....

From my perspective...I bought the original iPhone right when it came out...I became an obsessive fan and feel that Apple forever changed computing with the iPhone.... Android seemed to borrow so much from the iPhone OS...They're improving very quickly though...I hope stubbornness doesn't get in Steve's way.... It will be at least a few years we're wrestling with Flash...again, I just don't see any disadvantage with a ClickToFlash-type option... Even if its a resource hog, you have to give users choice.
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post #556 of 573
2/24/10 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swinge View Post

Yeah, sorry if my post came off as a bit of a rant... Really focused more at the Apple community as a whole and not you....

Is this true? I thought Flash currently ran on the HTC Hero: http://www.htc.com/www/press.aspx?id=103536&lang=1033 and was soon coming to the Nexus One....

From my perspective...I bought the original iPhone right when it came out...I became an obsessive fan and feel that Apple forever changed computing with the iPhone.... Android seemed to borrow so much from the iPhone OS...They're improving very quickly though...I hope stubbornness doesn't get in Steve's way.... It will be at least a few years we're wrestling with Flash...again, I just don't see any disadvantage with a ClickToFlash-type option... Even if its a resource hog, you have to give users choice.

The Hero does have Flash version 9(?), but if you read reviews on it it's so very poor that it makes since that only Flash Lite is on other Android phones until Flash 10.1 is finalized, and even then it may not be for every Android-based device. Since the primary reason for Flash is to play videos if you can't do this then it's as good as Flash Lite. Note that Hulu and other Flash-based video sites require Flash 10.x.x at this point. Games and apps still need to be rewritten for a touch-based device that has no mouse of keyboard. How Flash 10.1 for mobiles will accomplish this is still a mystery, but getting it run on ARM with HW acceleration is the primary goal that can all come later.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/24/htc-hero-hands-on/ So it's still a case of in 2010 Flash (10.1) still isn't released for mobiles, they still don't have a64-bit or HW accelerated (Core Animation) version for Mac OS X, and even once it does get on Android this year there is still going to be an issue with power drain.

We also need to look at what Apple has done to force Adobe's hand here. If not for Apple pointing out Flash's shortcomings and exploding the smartphone market Adobe may still have been okay with allowing Flash Lite to reign king on mobiles. If an efficient version of Flash was available for all mobiles except for the iPhone back in 2007 and Adobe was on the ball with Mac development then it would be Apple's fault, but Android has been out nearly as long as the iPhone so there is no excuse that all Android devices are not shipping with Flash. It's certainly not Apple's fault.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #557 of 573
2/24/10 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I still think if Adobe proves that Flash 10.1--which offloads Flash code processing to the GPU to reduce CPU usage--has little effect on overall battery performance, we may be heading for a potential legal showdown over Flash on the iPad as a violation of the Clayton Antitrust Act by Apple. Now that will be a case that could last for years. And I'm sure the aggressive antitrust authorities of the European Union are watching, too.

A law student at Columbia Law School put together a blog post about how Apple might be forced to support Flash, as the FCC might try to make a net neutrality argument against Apple's exclusion of Flash. I personally don't think Apple will be subject to the same rules as an ISP like Comcast, but maybe with enough bad press Apple will be convinced to make a change. Disclosure: I too am a student at Columbia Law and the blog editor for the journal I'm linking to.

http://www.stlr.org/2010/02/is-the-i...lash-unlawful/
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post #558 of 573
2/24/10 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

LOL I just tested two 1080p videos. One is 3.3Mbps and the other 3.7Mbps. That is well below iTS HD but it's the number before the little 'p' that is marketable, not bitrate.

edit: For another point of reference it looks like the iTunes Store SD content I have ranges from 1.5Mbps to 2.2Mbps.

Ours runs about 25-30Mbps and were told by charter thar 100 or 10MB is coming soon.
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post #559 of 573
2/24/10 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The Hero does have Flash version 9(?), but if you read reviews on it it's so very poor that it makes since that only Flash Lite is on other Android phones until Flash 10.1 is finalized, and even then it may not be for every Android-based device. Since the primary reason for Flash is to play videos if you can't do this then it's as good as Flash Lite. Note that Hulu and other Flash-based video sites require Flash 10.x.x at this point. Games and apps still need to be rewritten for a touch-based device that has no mouse of keyboard. How Flash 10.1 for mobiles will accomplish this is still a mystery, but getting it run on ARM with HW acceleration is the primary goal that can all come later.

•

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/24/htc-hero-hands-on/ So it's still a case of in 2010 Flash (10.1) still isn't released for mobiles, they still don't have a64-bit or HW accelerated (Core Animation) version for Mac OS X, and even once it does get on Android this year there is still going to be an issue with power drain.

We also need to look at what Apple has done to force Adobe's hand here. If not for Apple pointing out Flash's shortcomings and exploding the smartphone market Adobe may still have been okay with allowing Flash Lite to reign king on mobiles. If an efficient version of Flash was available for all mobiles except for the iPhone back in 2007 and Adobe was on the ball with Mac development then it would be Apple's fault, but Android has been out nearly as long as the iPhone so there is no excuse that all Android devices are not shipping with Flash. It's certainly not Apple's fault.

I hear you.... and on a small mobile device like an iPhone, I certainly don't miss it.... For something like the iPad though, I think it will be an issue for many people...You have to remember that Flash is not just video... The Wall Street Journal has beautiful interactive graphics and animations in Flash....NYT as well....For me, that reason alone is a deal breaker...I'd rather just stick with my laptop and not have issues.

The thing that got me MOST excited about the keynote was the iWork demo.... I'm soooooo hoping they move in the direction of like a MacBook iPad! Something I could synch my iPhone with (instead of having to synch the iPad with another computer). Something that could actually REPLACE my laptop. GO APPLE!!!
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post #560 of 573
2/24/10 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swinge View Post

I hear you.... and on a small mobile device like an iPhone, I certainly don't miss it.... For something like the iPad though, I think it will be an issue for many people...You have to remember that Flash is not just video... The Wall Street Journal has beautiful interactive graphics and animations in Flash....NYT as well....For me, that reason alone is a deal breaker...I'd rather just stick with my laptop and not have issues.

The problem is the reliance of sites on Flash without an option for new technologies, but the iPhone was a breakaway success that made the smartphone market viable. A web browser that could display a website format accurately and then zoom in was not around before the iPhone. RiM is still working on a decent browser and Android's browser still isn't as intelligent as the iPhone even though the browser engines are as good or better in the case of JS.

Quote:
The thing that got me MOST excited about the keynote was the iWork demo.... I'm soooooo hoping they move in the direction of like a MacBook iPad! Something I could synch my iPhone with (instead of having to synch the iPad with another computer). Something that could actually REPLACE my laptop. GO APPLE!!!

I don't see that happening. This will likely be a tablet and not a notebook or netbook. They are clearly making this an accessory device to a Mac/PC. I think a lot of people would be happy with a $500 iPad as their main computer, with the keyboard dock, of course, if it had a couple USB ports and support for an external HDD for backups and media files and the ability to sync you iPhone/iPod with it and edit your iTunes Library on it. Sadly, as useful as those would be for a great many simple notebook users I don't think Apple will go that route.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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