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Scientific analysis finds iPhone LCD trumps Nexus One OLED - Page 4

post #121 of 185
2/23/10 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Better send this link: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=637063

And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling

I have.
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post #122 of 185
2/23/10 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling

That's a pretty big thing that affects the user experience. Are you claiming that all the images you view are at their native resolution!?

You an say what you want, but the banding is extremely ugly. It is one example of either poor planning or poor implementation by Google/HTC. Apple is known for attention to detail.
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post #123 of 185
2/23/10 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradyonly View Post

Even if the iPhone screen is better it would be due to software, not hardware. Therefore "iPhone LCD trumps Nexus One OLED is an inaccurate statement, the test was limited by software, not hardware.

Exactly the point I was trying to get across. Some people are quick to dismiss OLED as inferior, but it seems that its the current display software thats inferior, not the screens themselves.
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post #124 of 185
2/23/10 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's a pretty big thing that affects the user experience. Are you claiming that all the images you view are at their native resolution!?

You an say what you want, but the banding is extremely ugly. It is one example of either poor planning or poor implementation by Google/HTC. Apple is known for attention to detail.


No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.

And yes, Apples is know for attention to detail, but are you saying that since firmware 1.0 they have been flawless and without a bug? I don't think so.
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post #125 of 185
2/23/10 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.

...

Who is the "they" who said that "it is a hardware fault and flaw in OLED technology"? It wasn't the tester, Dr. Soneira. He clearly stated due to the Nexus PenTile pixel arrangement, "... in practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images." And then following in red text,

Quote:
Note that we are testing and evaluating the display on the Nexus One with whatever hardware, firmware, OS and software are provided by Google and HTC. On-screen image and picture quality issues can arise in any one or more of these component layers.
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post #126 of 185
2/23/10 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisEMayle View Post

Who is the "they" who said that "it is a hardware fault and flaw in OLED technology"? It wasn't the tester, Dr. Soneira. He clearly (and in red text) stated,

This text wasn't there yesterday

Here is blaming the technology and, he is wrong, the technology doesn't make any artifacts
"Another unusual aspect of the Nexus One display is that it uses a PenTile pixel arrangement, where there are only two sub-pixels per pixel instead of the usual three, Red, Green and Blue, that are used in most display technologies. Every PenTile pixel includes a Green sub-pixel, but the Red and Blue sub-pixels appear in alternating pixels. In principle, that is only a minor issue because if Red or Blue isnt available in a particular pixel, then the display driver can just use one from an adjacent pixel. But In practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images."
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post #127 of 185
2/23/10 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by too999 View Post

It seems very common nowadays that people must confess that they own apple products so they deserve the rights to complain apple.

Come on, if you think iPhone pales to N1, don't have to say you own 4 iPhones.

Actually, it's valid to point out that I have four iPhones when comparing the Nexus One to iPhones. It shows at least a couple things that add credibility to my opinion:

1) I am a long time owner of iPhones, and therefore a "fan" of the product over the years, and

2) I actually have iPhones in my possession to sit side-by-side with the Nexus One to make real time comparisons of the two products.

Contrast this to those fanboys who have never even seen an N1, or those who have only played with one for a few minutes that a friend owns. With the story in question here, I pulled up the test pictures on both devices and saw the result for myself. How many others slamming the N1 in this thread have done that?

Additionally, in may of these Apple-oriented forums, it's not uncommon for trolls to come along and "diss" the Apple product just to be a jerk. Pointing out your fondness/ownership of the Apple products generally wards off accusations of being one of those trolls.
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post #128 of 185
2/23/10 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

This text wasn't there yesterday

Here is blaming the technology and, he is wrong, the technology doesn't make any artifacts
"Another unusual aspect of the Nexus One display is that it uses a PenTile pixel arrangement, where there are only two sub-pixels per pixel instead of the usual three, Red, Green and Blue, that are used in most display technologies. Every PenTile pixel includes a Green sub-pixel, but the Red and Blue sub-pixels appear in alternating pixels. In principle, that is only a minor issue because if Red or Blue isnt available in a particular pixel, then the display driver can just use one from an adjacent pixel. But In practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images."

Yes, I believe you're correct about the addition and highlighting of the text. I think he expanded on his original text, "... some of this is undoubtedly due to poor integration of the display hardware with the Android OS and software. Much of it, however, is simply due to very poor factory calibration and quality control."

In your second paragraph you quote, Dr. Soneira uses the words "minor issue" and "makes things a lot harder ..." Is this what you interpret as him asserting technology "blame" and "fault"?

I'm unfamiliar with the technology being discussed and am not trying to be contrary, but after reading and re-reading, the descriptions/criticisms come across more as hyperbole to further personal agendas and points-of-view that may put words in others' mouths. I believe words have both literal and implied meaning and I'm just attempting to calibrate.
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post #129 of 185
2/23/10 at 4:40pm
I think this whole article is ridiculous even if it were all true.
I own an iphone but also had an old Trekstor mp3 player with an oled screen, which could only display blue, orange and black in a low pixel density. Still if I could choose between an iphone with only black and white OLED and the current one I'd take the OLED. OLED is simply outstanding in contrast ratios and looks simply awesome compared to a standard washed out LCD. Especially in total darkness and also outside.
I personally think that the iphone LCD still sucks as a picture viewer and could be a lot better with a little more pixels and contrast. It is okay but only in the sense as there is nothing better, which means it is still far from good. If I want a picture viewer I need something to hook the thing easily up to a TV or display and need neither an iphone nor a Nexus nor any other such smartphone.
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post #130 of 185
2/23/10 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Yes he is incompentent, he is saying that Nexus One only uses 16 bit color so it has banding and a poor pictures quality. If he had opened the same images on the browser or on other pitcure viewers he had noticed that there is no banding and a superb quality picture.

All the results about picture quality, lower display technology are totally wrong.

Scientific? I don't whink so

...

Better send this link: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=637063

And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling

Response from Dr. Soneira, author of the article:

Quote:
On Feb 23, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Raymond Soneira wrote:

Thanks for your two Emails... I normally don't participate in forum discussions because they often seem to be dominated by baseless and obnoxious flaming remarks. Please post this one-time reply for me...

1. The test pattern tests were done with test patterns generated at the exact native 800x480 resolution of the Nexus One and the exact native 480x320 resolution of the iPhone so that scaling was not an issue for them. The RGBW intensity ramps in Figure 1 are 24-bit bmp 800x480 for the Nexus One and 480x320 for the iPhone. This is clearly stated in a couple of places in the article, so the remarks you sent are from someone who either didn't read or understand the article.

2. The quality of the image scaling is very relevant and very important because 99% of the images displayed by the Nexus One and iPhone have to be rescaled to fit the native resolution of the display. The Nexus One does a very poor job of it. That's a major issue and a major problem. Since scaling is done in software it can be fixed, but it still needs fixing! That level of crudeness doesn't belong in a shipping product.

3. The native resolution test patterns in Figure 1 clearly and definitely show that the Nexus One is using a 16-bit display interface. It shouldn't have one, it shouldn't be there. The browser is a complex multi-layered piece of software and for that reason is a bad place to test and analyze the display, which is what I am doing in the article. I am reviewing the display system, not the browser. There are many possible reasons why false contouring doesn't show up in the browser - it's most likely doing its own rescaling and dithering. Once again, I am not testing the browser, I am testing the display system, and the display system has a 16-bit interface and that is shocking!

4. All of the above issues can presumably be fixed in software. The factory calibration issues that are discussed in Part Ib on Wednesday most likely cannot...

Ray Soneira
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post #131 of 185
2/23/10 at 6:59pm
Thanks for the post, CurtisEMayle.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #132 of 185
2/23/10 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Thanks for the post, CurtisEMayle.

You're quite welcome.
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post #133 of 185
2/24/10 at 1:27am
I wonder how the Samsung Wave would fare, compared next to an iPhone?



The top one is a Samsung Wave and the bottom one is a Nexus One.

I think Samsung make the colours a bit too punchy and should include user adjustable settings for contrast and saturation. But that said, I will bet 99 people out of 100 would prefer the Wave display over the iPhone.
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post #134 of 185
2/24/10 at 2:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisEMayle View Post

Response from Dr. Soneira, author of the article:

I apologize for not have reading the part about resolution but Dr. Soneira is still wrong about the 16bit output, the image just above my post can prove that it outputs 24bits.

And the part about the browser having different scaling is shocking, if you have a 16bit display, you can make different scalings and different ditherings, you still have a 16bit output and is no way you can show the RGB example without banding.

And in Camera application, 3rd party pictures viewers and Browser you can view the examples used like the iPhones ones, without banding and showing that its output it's 24bit.

I don't know why Dr. Soneira can agree with that and say what he is saying.

P.S. I don't have any agenda
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post #135 of 185
2/24/10 at 2:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I wonder how the Samsung Wave would fare, compared next to an iPhone?
.

I played with a Samsung Super Amoled terminal at MWC in barcelona and it's gorgeous
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post #136 of 185
2/24/10 at 3:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.

And yes, Apples is know for attention to detail, but are you saying that since firmware 1.0 they have been flawless and without a bug? I don't think so.

Oh? Is this Android 1.0?
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post #137 of 185
2/24/10 at 3:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Oh? Is this Android 1.0?

Oh? Is iPhone OS 3.x or Mac OS X 10.6.x or any other os bug free?
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post #138 of 185
2/24/10 at 4:34am
please read the following from the article "As for the current standard-bearer in mobile phone displays, Soneira said he would guess that title goes to the Motorola Droid. While he hasn't done any thorough tests, he said in his educated opinion Motorola's Android-powered handset, which has a 3.7-inch screen, is the leader."

hence an alternative title would also be valid: "Motorola Droid LCD trumps iPhone LCD"
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post #139 of 185
2/24/10 at 6:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I wonder how the Samsung Wave would fare, compared next to an iPhone?

I think Samsung make the colours a bit too punchy and should include user adjustable settings for contrast and saturation. But that said, I will bet 99 people out of 100 would prefer the Wave display over the iPhone.

Actually, in your picture examples, I'd prefer the Wave over both the iPhone and the Nexus One. Were the brightness settings the same? The N1 photo looks too dark for my tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pompon View Post

hence an alternative title would also be valid: "Motorola Droid LCD trumps iPhone LCD"

LOL. Like that's ever going to happen on an Apple-related website.
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post #140 of 185
2/24/10 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortedLoop View Post

LOL. Like that's ever going to happen on an Apple-related website.

This is a pro-Apple site, sometimes unabashedly so. I personally don't like some of the excessive cheerleading that one pundit here seems to do.

Also, that test hasn't been posted yet either. The posted test article wasn't about the Droid. Once posted, at least there will be sites that pick it up. I bet a lot of those sites wouldn't pick up this particular story.
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post #141 of 185
2/24/10 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

This is a pro-Apple site, sometimes unabashedly so. I personally don't like some of the excessive cheerleading that one pundit here seems to do.

Also, that test hasn't been posted yet either. The posted test article wasn't about the Droid. Once posted, at least there will be sites that pick it up. I bet a lot of those sites wouldn't pick up this particular story.

But will you correct the statements that can be proven false?
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post #142 of 185
2/24/10 at 6:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

But will you correct the statements that can be proven false?

Unfortunately, I can't, I don't have any control over the main site. But the author's email is linked at the top of the article, you can make your case to him.
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post #143 of 185
2/24/10 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Unfortunately, I can't, I don't have any control over the main site. But the author's email is linked at the top of the article, you can make your case to him.

No, no, I'm talking about your site, not Dr. Soneira site.
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post #144 of 185
2/24/10 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

No, no, I'm talking about your site, not Dr. Soneira site.

That's what I meant. I have no control over www.appleinsider.com, what I called "the main site". My controls are only for forums.appleinsider.com. If you think there is something wrong with the article, please go to the top of the article and click the author's name and email him.
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post #145 of 185
2/24/10 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

That's what I meant. I have no control over www.appleinsider.com, what I called "the main site". My controls are only for forums.appleinsider.com. If you think there is something wrong with the article, please go to the top of the article and click the author's name and email him.


aps, thanks
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post #146 of 185
2/24/10 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

This is a pro-Apple site, sometimes unabashedly so. I personally don't like some of the excessive cheerleading that one pundit here seems to do.

Also, that test hasn't been posted yet either. The posted test article wasn't about the Droid. Once posted, at least there will be sites that pick it up. I bet a lot of those sites wouldn't pick up this particular story.

This is one of the best Apple related discussion forums, but you subtly acknowledge that my point to the other guy is correct.

You're going to have to go to non-Apple sites to find coverage that isn't generally slanted towards Apple products being the top of the heap, and that's because they generally are, but in the cellphone world, after 30 months or so of being the top of the heap, Apple's product is now number 2 at best, and arguably number 3 or lower. HTC, at the least, and perhaps others, including Motorola, have already released and also shown at the mobile conference in Spain, phones that far surpass the currently released and announced iPhone, regardless of any flawed testing done by a disgruntled Nexus One owner who tested one application only to determine that the overall product was inferior.

iPhone 4 is sure to wow, but sadly, in light of the totally-gone-off-the-deep-end censorship of apps Apple's now taken with the banning of bikini apps (and others), Apple's phone solution isn't likely to get my attention again unless it's years ahead of the competition hardware-wise and they lighten up on the App Store rejections/bans. We would never put up with this on our Macs, why would we put up with it on our phones? But I digress and have gone a bit off topic there.

EDIT: If Apple is actually going to allow more content in the store with this new "explicit" category, as indicated in this article, I may have to rethink my position on them.

At any rate, doesn't Apple seem more and more like the wrong side of the famous 1984 commercial these days with the iPhone...?
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post #147 of 185
2/24/10 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortedLoop View Post

Actually, in your picture examples, I'd prefer the Wave over both the iPhone and the Nexus One. Were the brightness settings the same? The N1 photo looks too dark for my tastes.

So would I, that is partly why I use a Samsung Jet in preference to an iPhone. The main reason being the camera.

I got that photo here, where there are plenty more comparison photos of the Wave vs several other phones:

http://www.unwiredview.com/2010/02/1...samsung-s8000/

They do not say what the brightness settings were, but I would guess they probably set each phone to its maximum brightness
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post #148 of 185
2/24/10 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortedLoop View Post

This is one of the best Apple related discussion forums, but you subtly acknowledge that my point to the other guy is correct.

The thing is, I don't know, I haven't been paying attention to this discussion as I might normally do. I'm not even sure what the complaint in question is. I do know I don't want to be a go-between the author and a member as to the merits of the argument.
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post #149 of 185
2/24/10 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

I apologize for not have reading the part about resolution but Dr. Soneira is still wrong about the 16bit output, the image just above my post can prove that it outputs 24bits.

And the part about the browser having different scaling is shocking, if you have a 16bit display, you can make different scalings and different ditherings, you still have a 16bit output and is no way you can show the RGB example without banding.

And in Camera application, 3rd party pictures viewers and Browser you can view the examples used like the iPhones ones, without banding and showing that its output it's 24bit.

I don't know why Dr. Soneira can agree with that and say what he is saying.

P.S. I don't have any agenda

Today's Email from Dr. Soneira, author of the article:

On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Raymond Soneira wrote:

Quote:
FYI... post if you like...

I've rolled out the data and discussion for the Color Gamut and Intensity Scale for the Nexus One and iPhone. See Figures 2 and 3 - they are super interesting!
http://www.displaymate.com/Nexus_One_ShootOut.htm
http://www.displaymate.com/iPhone_3GS_ShootOut.htm

---> I've also added an update about the brouhaha regarding the Nexus One browser not showing the banding: Here is the excerpt:

Color Depth and Granularity Update: People using the browser on the Nexus One report that they don't see the banding shown in Figure 1 for the NASA Photo Sunset on Mars from within the browser, but Gizmodo shows screen shots of Intensity Scale Ramps using the Nexus One Browser that duplicates and confirms the 16-bit color depth and banding shown in Figure 1. This definitively establishes that the Nexus One has a 16-bit display interface. It sounds like the Nexus One browser is using its own internal scaling together with a dithering algorithm that seems to be able to smooth over false contouring in some cases. But its clear that the Nexus One display system is using only 16-bit color and that is absolutely shocking!

It remains to be seen whether the 16-bit color is a hardware limitation or a software configuration that can be upgraded and fixed. My guess is that it looks like a hardware limitation because it is possible to see image flicker in dark test patterns, which means that the display is using low frequency Pulse Width Modulation. High frequency PWM is needed to produce the 256 levels needed for 24-bit color.
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post #150 of 185
2/24/10 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisEMayle View Post

Today's Email from Dr. Soneira, author of the article:

On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Raymond Soneira wrote:

In Spanish it's said "sostenella y no enmendalla" when someone doesn't want to acknowledge he is mistaken and, against all proves, he insist in the same mistake.

Please, as you have direct contact, tell him to copy the images in DCIM folder of the SD and then he can open them in Camera applications. After that, how he can explain the results?

And he can take an screenshot and he will see the banding, another prove that it's a software problem
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post #151 of 185
2/24/10 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

In Spanish it's said "sostenella y no enmendalla" when someone doesn't want to acknowledge he is mistaken and, against all proves, he insist in the same mistake.

Please, as you have direct contact, tell him to copy the images in DCIM folder of the SD and then he can open them in Camera applications. After that, how he can explain the results?

There is ample evidence on this site in support of your first paragraph.

I'd suggest you initiate your own direct contact with Dr. Soneira for issue resolution.
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post #152 of 185
2/24/10 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisEMayle View Post

There is ample evidence on this site in support of your first paragraph.

No, in his site there is not ample evidence, he is running in circles to maintain his position.

Thanks for the email address, if you want you can edit it
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post #153 of 185
2/24/10 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

No, in his site there is not ample evidence, he is running in circles to maintain his position.

...

If you will kindly and carefully re-read the first sentence of my previous posting, then your response in the above quote, you will get an example of miscommunication. If left unchecked, and amplified by the nuances of language, blinders of emotions, and personal agendas, it can bring to full bloom sostenella y no enmendalla.
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post #154 of 185
2/24/10 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

The thing is, I don't know, I haven't been paying attention to this discussion as I might normally do. I'm not even sure what the complaint in question is. I do know I don't want to be a go-between the author and a member as to the merits of the argument.

Yeah, I sure wouldn't be a go-between. I sure wasn't asking you to.

In a nutshell, the complaint here is that a lot of folks don't think the guy who did the test performed a valid test. Debate and fanboyism (on all sides) follows. Rinse and repeat. ;-)
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post #155 of 185
2/24/10 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisEMayle View Post

If you will kindly and carefully re-read the first sentence of my previous posting, then your response in the above quote, you will get an example of miscommunication. If left unchecked, and amplified by the nuances of language, blinders of emotions, and personal agendas, it can bring to full bloom sostenella y no enmendalla.

Can I edit my post to youthat you're referring after blaming myself for such incompetence reading?

And I won't "sostenella", you're totally right and I'm totally wrong saying what I said before.


P.S. Message sent to Dr. Soneira
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post #156 of 185
2/24/10 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

Can I edit my post to youthat you're referring after blaming myself for such incompetence reading?

And I won't "sostenella", you're totally right and I'm totally wrong saying what I said before.


P.S. Message sent to Dr. Soneira

Consider it done, Gwydion.
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post #157 of 185
2/24/10 at 1:22pm
I love how AppleInsider posts this and leaves it with no update after the test has been more than invalidated. I guess serious I guess this site will use whatever it can, including untrue findings, to validate their phone. lol

Even Giz updated their article... and they are super-fanboys of the iPhone.

http://gizmodo.com/5477320/the-nexus...secret-updated

And... have you seen the N1's display? I don't care if it shows 4 colors, it's flat gorgeous. I also typically reserve my HD picture viewing for a screen larger than 4 inches anyway...

The N1's screen is fine, and just as capable of rendering color as any other smartphone.
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post #158 of 185
2/24/10 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurtisEMayle View Post

Consider it done, Gwydion.

And now something totallyu diferent, an off topic.

Talking about "sostenella", I was shocked about all the critizism about droped call in the iPhone and blaming it for them.

Here in Spain and in Italy I don't know any case of dropped calls in any carrier, so the evidence was against AT&T but people stills balmes the phone, not the carrier.

I didn't have any droped call with myt 3G in any of the four carriers I have used
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post #159 of 185
2/24/10 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdttu View Post

I love how AppleInsider posts this and leaves it with no update after the test has been more than invalidated. I guess serious I guess this site will use whatever it can, including untrue findings, to validate their phone. lol

Even Giz updated their article... and they are super-fanboys of the iPhone.

http://gizmodo.com/5477320/the-nexus...secret-updated

And... have you seen the N1's display? I don't care if it shows 4 colors, it's flat gorgeous. I also typically reserve my HD picture viewing for a screen larger than 4 inches anyway...

The N1's screen is fine, and just as capable of rendering color as any other smartphone.

I can't speak for AI, but I haven't seen any evidence that "the test has been more than invalidated."

Gizmodo updated their posting, but it did not arrive at your stated conclusion. It clearly indicated, as did Dr. Soneira, that the poor results in question may be due to software factors. However, as Dr. Soneira reiterated, the test measured the overall display results, of which the software is definitely a factor (as is, of course, the hardware).

Check your own bias.
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post #160 of 185
2/24/10 at 1:56pm
And the latest rebutal, the only one which makes AMOLED displays is Samsung. The fact sheet:

http://www.samsungsmd.com/eng/text/AMOLED/ET-1-2-6.jsp
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