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MacBook Pros in tight supply, new models could broaden gap with MacBooks - Page 2

post #41 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by emig647 View Post

Probably not a matte option for the 13". It seems this is an option apple only wants to offer the pro users (started with 17 and finally migrated to 15).

I'm starting to think we'll never see blu-ray drives in mac computers...

And just why is the 13" MBP not "pro"? I really don't understand why Apple limits the pricing and options available on smaller models. The size of the models should not be related to price and the options available to the price. It's just a preference, and many people would like to spend more on a smaller model to get a capable yet portable machine.
post #42 of 116
Quote:
WTF with this update, for real. I feel like more people are waiting on this update than usual, maybe it's just because I'm waiting it feels so nuts. But it seems there are dozens of people here and hundreds at Macrumors.com (which I never even heard about until this dang MBP update limbo). Also I feel like there are way more rumors this time around. Just look at macrumors.com or even AI. It's torture. A new rumor that seems to be very convincing that MBPs are coming out in a week or "any day now" comes out like every week since January!! This Apple secrecy crap is just lame for minor product updates.


Yeah, and I'm one of them. On 8 March, i will start to work and a laptop is necessary for this job. I've always had a PC but fell in love with the Macbook Pro some time ago. If Apple doesn't release its new MBP's before 8 march, I'm doomed to buy something else instead (which i absolutely don't want anymore -_-). I'm getting tired of waiting lol. I check these apple fansites almost every hour like a real freak to see if anything new showed up. I guess my only hope is next tuesday!
post #43 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchelljd View Post

Yes, You are missing .. BLU-RAY
The Superdrive is just not very super anymore. As someone who works with music and photography, I really need to option to backup files to BD disc. Also, i have a large BD movie collection and i can't spare any hard drive space on my laptop for digital copies to fill it up. and i also have netflix. so i like to rent BD discs. digital copy or not. i need BD

Get rid of the optical drive altogether. Useless space waster. Use the space to make the laptop thinner, or install another SSD and extra memory. If you need to use an optical drive, buy and external. Taking up all that space and weight for a drive most of us hardly use is a waste.
post #44 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by roblevi View Post

Get rid of the optical drive altogether. Useless space waster. Use the space to make the laptop thinner, or install another SSD and extra memory. If you need to use an optical drive, buy and external. Taking up all that space and weight for a drive most of us hardly use is a waste.

No, no, no. Remove the optical drive and add battery. I want the laptop to last all day with no cables. 10 hours of battery life would be good.
post #45 of 116
I agree with the last comments : PLEASE APPLE REMOVE THE OPTICAL DRIVE ! It's useless, on a portable computer ! Make the PRO portable thinner and lighter !

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post #46 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

And just why is the 13" MBP not "pro"? I really don't understand why Apple limits the pricing and options available on smaller models. The size of the models should not be related to price and the options available to the price. It's just a preference, and many people would like to spend more on a smaller model to get a capable yet portable machine.

I have spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out why they wouldn't offer the matte display option on the 13" model. I am convinced it is to get you to buy the more expensive machine. They make more money selling a 15" or 17" than they do the 13" model.

There is no other reason to not offer it on the most portable model. The model that most people will be lugging around with them and using in a variety of different lighting situations. It seems like a not so customer friendly decision, but I can't think of another reason they wouldn't offer it.
post #47 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali View Post

I agree with the last comments : PLEASE APPLE REMOVE THE OPTICAL DRIVE ! It's useless, on a portable computer ! Make the PRO portable thinner and lighter !

I want to keep it in unless it's so we can have a second drive and/or battery bay. a second bay for SSD would be cool espicially if OS X allowed us to use it as a super-huge cache, and/or to store frequently accessed system files (e.g. pieces of OS X) on it, and our user files on the HDD. Dude optical ain't going away for another decade. It's not because it's cheaper than flash. At this point...it's not! It's amazing what you can pick up for pocket change at any local Staples these days...32, even 64-gig flash drives. But the reason especially for MacBook PROs is that when you are on the road and come across a CD, you're going to want that optical drive. You won't be lugging an addon. SuperDrive will remain the same for another year or two at least. And I doubt Apple will ever add BluRay to its laptops.
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post #48 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

Not unless it's so we can have a second drive and/or battery bay. a second bay for SSD would be cool esp. if OS X allowed us to use it as a super-huge cache, and/or to store frequently accessed system files (e.g. pieces of OS X) on it, and our user files on the HDD.

There is room for both and more, like an extra 5 inches on port side real estate.

Quote:
Dude optical ain't going away for another decade.

They are slower than NAND and HDDs. They use a lot more power. They are more prone to breaking since they have moving parts. The cost of a 640GB HDD is less than a Blu-ray Drive with 12x50GB or 25x25GB discs. The space needed for it is huge! Capacity isn't growing nearly as fast as HDD tech which isn't growing nearly as fast as NAND tech, which is gettin 3-bit tech (50% capacity increase) this year and the 32nm adding another 50% capacity increase top of that all for the same cost. SSDs already match 1.8" HDD capacities, 2.5" is growing and already exceed 2.5" drives for the same 7mm height, which will be new standard when the optical drive gets removed. I predict they will going away from Mac notebooks within 2 years. Most apps are DLed over a network, this does not exclude support for an external ODD if needed. Once this change happens it will be like the floppy drive, others will follow, but Apple isn't the first to go this route, just look at the HP Envys. How will you restore the OS? A cheap read-only 8GB SD card that is still worlds faster than any optical drive making an install happen in minutes.
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post #49 of 116
[QUOTE=solipsism;1579548]There is room for both and more, like an extra 5 inches on port side real estate.

Cool pic. Oh I agree with everything you're saying solip and believe me I'm on your team. I think the main reason they'll remain is because a lot of stuff from the past two decades is still kicking around on CD and DVD. That's all I'm getting at. It's like VHS tapes which are just now fading away. DVD came out in the early 90s but took a while to replace VHS. Perhaps optical will fade out..I hope so.

Jeez we just need those new MBPs now!
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post #50 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

Cool pic. Oh I agree with everything you're saying solip and believe me I'm on your team. I think the main reason they'll remain is because a lot of stuff from the past two decades is still kicking around on CD and DVD. That's all I'm getting at. It's like VHS tapes which are just now fading away. DVD came out in the early 90s but took a while to replace VHS. Perhaps optical will fade out..I hope so.

Jeez we just need those new MBPs now!

Remember, this is Apple. When they do something they tend to go all in. Now, with the ODD there is no reason to remove it from desktops at this point, at least not the iMacs and Mac Pros. Other vendors are doing it a little but I think Apple will get to that point when they make all Mac notebooks without ODDs, except for maybe the 17" MBP.

I'm hoping it's this year and it's more of a focus on the 15" MBPs to start with an introduction of a 15" plastic-unibody MacBook that is thicker with an ODD. I think Apple is too big and the space constraints aren't like they are for port like USB or mDP to require all machines to get the change right away.

I haven't needed the ODD in years. I really hope we'll see it gone in the next revision. that plus, a GPS chip for FindMyMac on MM, dynamic switchable graphics and USB3.0.
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post #51 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

And just why is the 13" MBP not "pro"? I really don't understand why Apple limits the pricing and options available on smaller models. The size of the models should not be related to price and the options available to the price. It's just a preference, and many people would like to spend more on a smaller model to get a capable yet portable machine.

Hello, space... A 13" MPB is physically smaller than it's larger brethren. This means that there are less materials involved in the manufacture of the case, display, etc., and hence a lower price for a comparable unit. The limited options would also be related to space. Less space on the motherboard to put the second graphics chip, less battery space and heat dissipation room both lead to a lower speed processor selection.

I don't think Apple is imposing artificial limits on the 13" MBP options, it's simply a matter of what they can fit into the machine. Even if they could fit the fastest processor, second graphics chip, etc., would there be enough market demand to build such a 13" monster? My guess is that most people who can afford and demand those extras are also wanting the larger display of the 15" or 17" models.

Oops... Now I realize that you were mostly referring to the matte finish. Yeah, you got me there. Personally, I don't want the matte finish, but if people want to pay for it it should be a difficult option for Apple to provide.
post #52 of 116
So the shareholder meeting went great, AAPL has 40 billion in cash and only 25% of their revenue is from selling Macs. All Macs put together! Jeez I guess they don't need to worry about the MBP. I wonder if maybe they really won't update until April or something. I didn't realize Macs were such a tiny part of their revenue, I knew it was not the majority but not that small. Damnit I just need a new laptop this is nuts. \
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post #53 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

So the shareholder meeting went great, AAPL has 40 billion in cash and only 25% of their revenue is from selling Macs. All Macs put together! Jeez I guess they don't need to worry about the MBP. I wonder if maybe they really won't update until April or something. I didn't realize Macs were such a tiny part of their revenue, I knew it was not the majority but not that small. Damnit I just need a new laptop this is nuts. \

I wouldn't think that is the reason. That is a lot of revenue no matter how you slice it. Since Arrandale should be high supply now for Apple's needs there is something else likely holding it back. It might be some marketing maneuvering but I hope that there are some major redesigns coming, hence the extra wait, but in no way do I see Apple foregoing their Mac line. If not for Macs the best part of the iDevice ecosystem fails apart for many of us users and Apple knows that.
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post #54 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by svnipp View Post

Even if they could fit the fastest processor, second graphics chip, etc., would there be enough market demand to build such a 13" monster? My guess is that most people who can afford and demand those extras are also wanting the larger display of the 15" or 17" models.

This is exactly what I mean, actually. Apple is deliberately not including, say, more powerful processors in the 13" model compared to the 15" model not because of space or thermal constraints (since the processors have the same TDP and are pin-compatible), but presumably because they either don't think people who want smaller machines want as much power, or because they want people who want more power to spend more money on the bigger machines. But there are plenty of people who would rather spend more money to get the same performance in a smaller machine because they value portability. The demand is there.
post #55 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

This is exactly what I mean, actually. Apple is deliberately not including, say, more powerful processors in the 13" model compared to the 15" model not because of space or thermal constraints (since the processors have the same TDP and are pin-compatible), but presumably because they either don't think people who want smaller machines want as much power, or because they want people who want more power to spend more money on the bigger machines. But there are plenty of people who would rather spend more money to get the same performance in a smaller machine because they value portability. The demand is there.

There would be some buyers who find that ideal, myself included, but i don't see it as a good marketing move or a viable product category to use the fastest processor of the same TDP that is in the 17" MBP in the 13" which costs considerably more per chip, yet not be able add a dedicated GPU or other parts because of the space constraints. It's just isn't a great business move.
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post #56 of 116
I don't think it's quite time yet to phase out the ODD. There's still a plethora of media out there that people own on physical discs. Although it's use is diminishing, it's still useful for the occasional software installation, media transfer or for gaming sessions (although that last one is a concept alien to some people here).
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post #57 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

So the shareholder meeting went great, AAPL has 40 billion in cash and only 25% of their revenue is from selling Macs. All Macs put together! Jeez I guess they don't need to worry about the MBP. I wonder if maybe they really won't update until April or something. I didn't realize Macs were such a tiny part of their revenue, I knew it was not the majority but not that small. Damnit I just need a new laptop this is nuts. \

This is recent. As little as a year ago, it was 50%. While Mac sales are rising, they were hurt by the recession. If not for that, Apple would have sold about 3 million more Macs last year, going by the past few years sales increases in percent.

Now, iPhones and Touches are rising in sales faster that the computers.
post #58 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

This is exactly what I mean, actually. Apple is deliberately not including, say, more powerful processors in the 13" model compared to the 15" model not because of space or thermal constraints (since the processors have the same TDP and are pin-compatible), but presumably because they either don't think people who want smaller machines want as much power, or because they want people who want more power to spend more money on the bigger machines. But there are plenty of people who would rather spend more money to get the same performance in a smaller machine because they value portability. The demand is there.

I dont think there are a lot of people who would spend that. The 13" is a way to get into the pro line at a lesser price.
post #59 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I dont think there are a lot of people who would spend that. The 13" is a way to get into the pro line at a lesser price.

So the lower end 13" can have slower processors and no discrete GPU, while the higher end 13" can have faster processors and discrete GPU. Basically, have the 13" cover the same range in terms of price and performance as the 15", but shifted downward a bit due to the limitations of the formfactor. Right now the 13"'s price/performance range is not just shifted downward, but the top of the range is chopped off because Apple doesn't think people looking for portable machines want that much performance. This I would like to see changed with the refresh.
post #60 of 116
optical drives are going the same way as ZIPdrives. At work were we have sitelicenes for many programs I install them from a USB stick not bothering with burning CDs and DVDs.

At home I do listen to both CDs and LPs but as far as computers go I hardly ever use the optical drives

It is also high time to move to the i3 and i5 CPUs as other vendors allready have them out on the market
post #61 of 116
Anyone have any idea when apple might decide to refresh the macbook air ?
post #62 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

So the lower end 13" can have slower processors and no discrete GPU, while the higher end 13" can have faster processors and discrete GPU.

Now we're back to space as engineering issues in the 13" over the 15".

You can't see why a machine with a slower processor might also get the slower GPU option?
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post #63 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by psylence2k View Post

Anyone have any idea when apple might decide to refresh the macbook air ?

I'd wager it'll be refreshed with the pro Macs, if not sooner. The CULV Core-i7s have likely been ready since January for that machine type.
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post #64 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

So the lower end 13" can have slower processors and no discrete GPU, while the higher end 13" can have faster processors and discrete GPU. Basically, have the 13" cover the same range in terms of price and performance as the 15", but shifted downward a bit due to the limitations of the formfactor. Right now the 13"'s price/performance range is not just shifted downward, but the top of the range is chopped off because Apple doesn't think people looking for portable machines want that much performance. This I would like to see changed with the refresh.

I don't think Apple wants to position it that way. It's a psychological barrier. When people see how far it can be upgraded, they look at the lessor one they were going to buy, and change their minds, and don't buy anything. People often don't want to buy a low end model if theres a big difference between that one and the "best" one. Hence, the positioning.
post #65 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by psylence2k View Post

Anyone have any idea when apple might decide to refresh the macbook air ?

Don't know but if you are just waiting for a good deal, you can get one marked down $350 from regular price from a fantastic reseller, SmallDog: http://www.smalldog.com/wag19883/at_dealmac It has an SSD too. I'd wager a current computer with an SSD would feel faster than a new MacBook Air or Pro without one, at least on many things. I'm going with an MPB for other reasons, but if I thought this might interest you psylence...

Well I guess we'll all meet back here next Tuesday to either commiserate or trade high fives.
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post #66 of 116
Various posters are arguing the merits of optical drives, or removing optical drives... I think Apple has tested the waters with the MacBook Air just to decide that particular point.

You may see a MacBook Air Pro with the refresh--or, the MacBook Air may go away entirely, since the mainline MacBooks may accomplish the same thing.

(I say lose the optical drive; put in another SSD or battery or make the case smaller. An external drive need not be all that large. When I last traveled with my '06 MacBook Pro, I copied ripped DVDs to it rather than fool with bringing the physical DVDs. If I really needed an optical drive I would not mind lugging a small external. Besides, the last time I used the optical drive on the laptop was to install Snow Leopard. In fact, I think the only time I've used the optical drive was when there was an OS disk involved.)
post #67 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isomorphic View Post

Various posters are arguing the merits of optical drives, or removing optical drives... I think Apple has tested the waters with the MacBook Air just to decide that particular point.

You may see a MacBook Air Pro with the refresh--or, the MacBook Air may go away entirely, since the mainline MacBooks may accomplish the same thing.

(I say lose the optical drive; put in another SSD or battery or make the case smaller. An external drive need not be all that large. When I last traveled with my '06 MacBook Pro, I copied ripped DVDs to it rather than fool with bringing the physical DVDs. If I really needed an optical drive I would not mind lugging a small external. Besides, the last time I used the optical drive on the laptop was to install Snow Leopard. In fact, I think the only time I've used the optical drive was when there was an OS disk involved.)

I can see a market for the ultra=light notebooks, like the MBA, but the need does diminish quite a bit with the removal of the ODD and the eventual thinning by 2.5mm once they can go to an SSD (or loss a platter in the HDD).

Plus, the MBA's battery is pretty bad compared to the current notebook lineup. Hopefully the next revision resolves some of that but I am not sure how much they can improve it. Ideally that type of machine would have more longevity than other notebooks.

The inclusion of the SD card slot on Macs was odd since it was so longer after they were standard in cameras and in most PCs. It did come after the SDXC was ratified which I think played a major role, but I think that Apple intends to eventually put their OS restore disc on SD card. You can already copy SL to an SD Card, Flash drive, or an internal or external disk and boot from it. it's easy as pie with Disk Utility and means you'll never need Target Disk Mode to do a fix or remove files.
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post #68 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Now we're back to space as engineering issues in the 13" over the 15".

So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.
post #69 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post

So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.

Which model is this? Sony has great engineers, too, but you can't bend the laws of physics.

BTW, the Core-i7 means nothing as the TDP for mobiles runs from 18W for the CULV version up to the 45W for the quad-core version. The next MBA will get a Core-i7 even though the C2D in the MB is faster.
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post #70 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Which model is this? Sony has great engineers, too, but you can't bend the laws of physics.

BTW, the Core-i7 means nothing as the TDP for mobiles runs from 18W for the CULV version up to the 45W for the quad-core version. The next MBA will get a Core-i7 even though the C2D in the MB is faster.

The new Sony Vaio Z series: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...tegoryId=16154

When I first saw those specs I also thought it was not physically possible. But alas! they had done it. It's the model singly responsible for giving me hope for great things to come with a new 13" MBP.

The Core i7 in the Vaio Z is the 35W one, the same one as the MBPs would probably use.
post #71 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Which model is this? Sony has great engineers, too, but you can't bend the laws of physics.

BTW, the Core-i7 means nothing as the TDP for mobiles runs from 18W for the CULV version up to the 45W for the quad-core version. The next MBA will get a Core-i7 even though the C2D in the MB is faster.

The Vaio Z series has these features. Sony has had similar high powered but tiny 13" models out since before the first Macbook Pro came out in 2006. Size clearly can't be an excuse if Sony can do it over and over again. My point is that if Apple's designs are so constricting that they don't allow for this level of expansion and power, when it can clearly be done, they need to be rethought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

It's the model singly responsible for giving me hope for great things to come with a new 13" MBP.

Don't get too happy. Sony has had powerful machines this size out for years. Apple still claims that no one wants a high powered 13" machine though (or, for that matter, a low power 17" notebook).
post #72 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post

So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.

Note that Sony states on its site that $1,900 is starting price and excludes a couple of features you said. It costs $3,550 after you add i7, 512G twin SSD and a BD burner to the list so I don't see how you can get all those for the price of a mid-range 15" MBP.
post #73 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post

So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

The new Sony Vaio Z series: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...tegoryId=16154

When I first saw those specs I also thought it was not physically possible. But alas! they had done it. It's the model singly responsible for giving me hope for great things to come with a new 13" MBP.

The Core i7 in the Vaio Z is the 35W one, the same one as the MBPs would probably use.

You still can't deny the laws of physics. Having a 13" display in each doesn't mean they are the same size machines, only that they are the same size displays. You can get much more powerful systems the thicker you make the chassis.

What's the 13" MBP line? 0.95" the entire way but the Sony Viao Z gets goes up to 1.30" and has feet for more airflow? That isn't to say that the Viao is too thick or that the feet are silly but there are reasons for what we are seeing.

They are also only using SSDs for the dual drives. Since the typical HDD is 9.5mm and the typical SSD is 7mm, but the chassis is considerably thicker toward the back, they can easily stack two of them on each other, so they are still taking up the same footprint space as 1 HDD or SSD.

The uses of the Core-i7 can't be considered because the Macs have yet to be updated to the Core-ix line. I have doubts there will be any Core-i7s in the 13" line. keep it i3 with i5 are the higher-end with i5 and i7 in he 15" and 17" models.

Then there is price. Going smaller does cost more. The Viao Z does start at $600 more than the 13" MBP.

PS: I only perused the specs for a second last night because going to bed so that i based on fatigued research with sleep immediately afterwards so some of my specifics could be very off. That doesn't change the fact that cost and physics play major roles and should not be overlooked. The Viao Z looks like a great machine but for the cost I would expect quite a bit more than a 13" MBP, I'd also not be surprised to see a discrete GPU in the 13" MB or MBP, like they had in the 12" PB now that they can't use the 9400M as the IGP.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #74 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isomorphic View Post

Various posters are arguing the merits of optical drives, or removing optical drives... I think Apple has tested the waters with the MacBook Air just to decide that particular point.

You may see a MacBook Air Pro with the refresh--or, the MacBook Air may go away entirely, since the mainline MacBooks may accomplish the same thing.

(I say lose the optical drive; put in another SSD or battery or make the case smaller. An external drive need not be all that large. When I last traveled with my '06 MacBook Pro, I copied ripped DVDs to it rather than fool with bringing the physical DVDs. If I really needed an optical drive I would not mind lugging a small external. Besides, the last time I used the optical drive on the laptop was to install Snow Leopard. In fact, I think the only time I've used the optical drive was when there was an OS disk involved.)

You know, I'm starting to agree...I was arguing for ODD since many files from another era are still bound to discs. But like ya'll I haven't used my optical since...installing OS X! And 10.5 at that! I really had to think. Wait, I watched one DVD a few months ago. How about this...best case scenario...in the 13" and 15" we get a bay where we pick whether we want an ODD, HDD, SSD, or other device. I don't know whether it would get too complicated but allowing an extra battery would be SO COOL. And 3rd party companies could come up with other add-ons, like adding a card to do USB 3 or some other fancy interface or device. And perhaps the 17" could have two bays, or an ODD and an expansion bay. I mean that's a big machine, it's like a lunch tray.

And to differentiate..the regular MacBook wouldn't have either. No ODD but no bay. I'd hope they could thus chop $100 off. This would help institutional and education buyers, students, folks at home that don't want an ODD, etc. I guess the MacBook would become the MacBook Air. Perhaps not quite as thin or something. Thus the MacBook Air to justify higher cost would have to be faster or have more RAM/HD etc. or maybe just go away.

Well anyway here's to next Tuesday. Hey solip aren't you supposed to be on vacation? Take vacation, come back, enjoy new Apple updates.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #75 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

You know, I'm starting to agree...I was arguing for ODD since many files from another era are still bound to discs. But like ya'll I haven't used my optical since...installing OS X! And 10.5 at that! I really had to think. Wait, I watched one DVD a few months ago. How about this...best case scenario...in the 13" and 15" we get a bay where we pick whether we want an ODD, HDD, SSD, or other device. I don't know whether it would get too complicated but allowing an extra battery would be SO COOL. And 3rd party companies could come up with other add-ons, like adding a card to do USB 3 or some other fancy interface or device. And perhaps the 17" could have two bays, or an ODD and an expansion bay. I mean that's a big machine, it's like a lunch tray.

And to differentiate..the regular MacBook wouldn't have either. No ODD but no bay. I'd hope they could thus chop $100 off. This would help institutional and education buyers, students, folks at home that don't want an ODD, etc. I guess the MacBook would become the MacBook Air. Perhaps not quite as thin or something. Thus the MacBook Air to justify higher cost would have to be faster or have more RAM/HD etc. or maybe just go away.

Well anyway here's to next Tuesday. Hey solip aren't you supposed to be on vacation? Take vacation, come back, enjoy new Apple updates.

I think that is most people's initial response to the ODD. They think it's as important as the CPU or RAM but when they think about the last time it was utilized they realize they haven't.

I'm so keen on the space being multi-function. It would still mean 5" of port-side real estate gone and it could never be as efficient as simply moving the ODD externally for the few that need it. There would be lots of complaints and they would likely sell quite a few external ODDs, hopefully dropping the current MBA ODD price from $99 to $49-79.

I wish I could. I got delayed the day of my vacation. It was a month long cruise to Australia. No biggie, I'd have missed this forum too much anyway.


PS: I "hope" that the delay in pro Mac updates is due to a Mac special event coming shortly. One where they want to showcase the new Macs on stage because it's radical changes, not just a speed bump. They need less than a week for the media, but I don't think they even need that these days. Just film it in house, post the video and let it go viral. I'm sure even MSNBC would spend plenty of time on it.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #76 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You still can't deny the laws of physics. Having a 13" display in each doesn't mean they are the same size machines, only that they are the same size displays. You can get much more powerful systems the thicker you make the chassis.

What's the 13" MBP line? 0.95" the entire way but the Sony Viao Z gets goes up to 1.30" and has feet for more airflow? That isn't to say that the Viao is too thick or that the feet are silly but there are reasons for what we are seeing.

They are also only using SSDs for the dual drives. Since the typical HDD is 9.5mm and the typical SSD is 7mm, but the chassis is considerably thicker toward the back, they can easily stack two of them on each other, so they are still taking up the same footprint space as 1 HDD or SSD.

The uses of the Core-i7 can't be considered because the Macs have yet to be updated to the Core-ix line. I have doubts there will be any Core-i7s in the 13" line. keep it i3 with i5 are the higher-end with i5 and i7 in he 15" and 17" models.

Then there is price. Going smaller does cost more. The Viao Z does start at $600 more than the 13" MBP.

PS: I only perused the specs for a second last night because going to bed so that i based on fatigued research with sleep immediately afterwards so some of my specifics could be very off. That doesn't change the fact that cost and physics play major roles and should not be overlooked. The Viao Z looks like a great machine but for the cost I would expect quite a bit more than a 13" MBP, I'd also not be surprised to see a discrete GPU in the 13" MB or MBP, like they had in the 12" PB now that they can't use the 9400M as the IGP.

The chassis of the new Vaio Z is actually about 1" thick throughout, it's measured as 1.3" at the back because the battery has protruding feet that raise the machine up a bit, for the airflow reason as you said. It's still a bit thicker than the MBP, but not much. If I had to choose between not needing 0.3" of raised airflow space and powerful performance, I would choose the latter. But unfortunately I'm not optimistic that Apple would feel the same way. But at some point this form-over-function thing really needs to stop, especially on the Pro line that is supposed to be more about performance.
post #77 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

...this form-over-function thing really needs to stop, especially on the Pro line that is supposed to be more about performance.

Definitely. Sacrificing 20% performance just so the laptop doesn't have to stand up mere fractions of a inch off a table is the classic "new" Steve Jobs Apple. I agree it sucks. Same thing for it having to be paper-thin. To a point, it's good to have a solid case, minimalist design, good UI, keep things compact, etc. But yeah I agree they take things a bit far in several areas on the laptops. There is definitely room between the current design ethic and becoming a fugly 3" think luggable Dell. I particularly think the 15" and 17" don't need to be quite so thin. What good does thin do you when it's so large planimetrically?
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #78 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

The chassis of the new Vaio Z is actually about 1" thick throughout, it's measured as 1.3" at the back because the battery has protruding feet that raise the machine up a bit, for the airflow reason as you said. It's still a bit thicker than the MBP, but not much. If I had to choose between not needing 0.3" of raised airflow space and powerful performance, I would choose the latter. But unfortunately I'm not optimistic that Apple would feel the same way. But at some point this form-over-function thing really needs to stop, especially on the Pro line that is supposed to be more about performance.

Those are valid points but I wouldn't say it's necessarily form over function and simply being "Faster" doesn't mean that the Vaio Z is more function over form as that isn't the only measure we need to consider.

The Pro line is more about performance over the non-Pro line of Macs, but not only about processing performance and not usually trying to be the fastest PC in that display size for that machine type.

I answer the rest under Aquatic's post...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post

Definitely. Sacrificing 20% performance just so the laptop doesn't have to stand up mere fractions of a inch off a table is the classic "new" Steve Jobs Apple. I agree it sucks. Same thing for it having to be paper-thin. To a point, it's good to have a solid case, minimalist design, good UI, keep things compact, etc. But yeah I agree they take things a bit far in several areas on the laptops. There is definitely room between the current design ethic and becoming a fugly 3" think luggable Dell. I particularly think the 15" and 17" don't need to be quite so thin. What good does thin do you when it's so large planimetrically?

There are some things to consider with Sony's design. How rigid/durable is it compared to the 13" MBP? How big is the battery and how much of the battery sticks out to make that 1.3" height?

solarein states that the average thickness of the Vaio Z is 1" but the MBP is 0.95" inches. How much of that 5% over the footprint of the machine helps with cooling and making components that can be built higher?

What purpose are the feet on the Vaio Z? Presumably for cooling, but most laptops are often used on the lap where the feet become pointless and the bottom is firmly resting on an object nearing 100° F. Is the machine tested well to operate under those conditions? If so, then why have the feet at all.

If there is an issue with Apple's machine it's likely not form over function so much as marketing over "spec listing". In other words, Apple choose not to make a 13" notebook that starts at $1,800 to compete with Sony but instead to offer a quality machine that starts at $1500, which they latter dropped to $1200. Apple's goal is to make money, as is any other PC company but it seems the only way for others is to go below or above the performance Apple is willing to offer for a machine class.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #79 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Those are valid points but I wouldn't say it's necessarily form over function and simply being "Faster" doesn't mean that the Vaio Z is more function over form as that isn't the only measure we need to consider.

The Pro line is more about performance over the non-Pro line of Macs, but not only about processing performance and not usually trying to be the fastest PC in that display size for that machine type.

I answer the rest under Aquatic's post...



There are some things to consider with Sony's design. How rigid/durable is it compared to the 13" MBP? How big is the battery and how much of the battery sticks out to make that 1.3" height?

solarein states that the average thickness of the Vaio Z is 1" but the MBP is 0.95" inches. How much of that 5% over the footprint of the machine helps with cooling and making components that can be built higher?

What purpose are the feet on the Vaio Z? Presumably for cooling, but most laptops are often used on the lap where the feet become pointless and the bottom is firmly resting on an object nearing 100° F. Is the machine tested well to operate under those conditions? If so, then why have the feet at all.

If there is an issue with Apple's machine it's likely not form over function so much as marketing over "spec listing". In other words, Apple choose not to make a 13" notebook that starts at $1,800 to compete with Sony but instead to offer a quality machine that starts at $1500, which they latter dropped to $1200. Apple's goal is to make money, as is any other PC company but it seems the only way for others is to go below or above the performance Apple is willing to offer for a machine class.

Having used the last generation Z extensively (the new one isn't that different case wise), the case isn't as rigid. It's mostly made of carbon fiber impregnated plastic, but I've never seen a plastic case as rigid as the aluminum unibody cases. To be fair though, it is lighter than a Macbook Air, so something had to be compromised.

That said, I think you're getting away from the point of this. The point is that a thin and light 13" notebook with loads of expansion and power can be built despite your earlier assertions that there was simply no room. Obviously I'm not suggesting that Apple make an identical computer to Sony. It doesn't have to have a 1680x1050 screen or weigh 3lbs.

However, there's no technical reason why they can't make a more powerful, more expandable 13" Macbook Pro. It doesn't have to start at $1900. It could start at $1100 and allow people to configure it as they please (like virtually every other computer maker in the world does). The inverse is that there's no reason that anyone should have to spend $2500 to get a 17" MBP either.

If their designs don't allow for it, the designs need to change. As Aquatic said, making the designs more flexible doesn't mean that they will instantly turn into 9lb Thinkpads.
post #80 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post

Having used the last generation Z extensively (the new one isn't that different case wise), the case isn't as rigid. It's mostly made of carbon fiber impregnated plastic, but I've never seen a plastic case as rigid as the aluminum unibody cases. To be fair though, it is lighter than a Macbook Air, so something had to be compromised.

That said, I think you're getting away from the point of this. The point is that a thin and light 13" notebook with loads of expansion and power can be built despite your earlier assertions that there was simply no room. Obviously I'm not suggesting that Apple make an identical computer to Sony. It doesn't have to have a 1680x1050 screen or weigh 3lbs.

However, there's no technical reason why they can't make a more powerful, more expandable 13" Macbook Pro. It doesn't have to start at $1900. It could start at $1100 and allow people to configure it as they please (like virtually every other computer maker in the world does). The inverse is that there's no reason that anyone should have to spend $2500 to get a 17" MBP either.

If their designs don't allow for it, the designs need to change. As Aquatic said, making the designs more flexible doesn't mean that they will instantly turn into 9lb Thinkpads.

So what is the solution? Arguing for Core-i7 is out since we know we're waiting for a new version. We also can't argue on the merits of the Nvidia 9400M because it's a good chip has has plenty of pros and we just don't know how Apple will handle this change, though moving to the Intel IGP+mobile disdcrete GPU seems liekly.

So to make it more like the sony, they make it less flexible, make it thicker at the thinnest part by 5% and up to 1/3" thicker to accommodate a decent battery, use plastic instead of the aluminum (carbon fiber is an additional fee), use a tray loading optical drive, get ride of the cheaper HDD in favour of only using SSDs even though they are still quite expensive?

All those things can be done. No one that Apple could do it, but I stated earlier Apple isn't making the 13" MBP to compete with Sony that starts just under $2k before you start adding the performance and options that you stated. It starts at $1,200.

The first thing we need to do is figure out what is key to Apple, and price point is one of those things.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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