Vegetarians/Vegans? - Page 2

yea....Much like that. My sister LOVES soy milk....and she used to hate it....so I think I'm going to go give it another try.

Everyone keeps talking about videos. I hate vegan propaganda. Especially the animal rights retards who insist on showing that stuff to kids. If they could only show half as much concern for people. Oh well.

In my book, vegetarianism and veganism are eating disorders just like anorexia. On one hand, both seem to be fads in the youthful female population -- self-inflicted pain seems to be hip these days -- but on the other hand there's a scientific connection between the two.

The human body is designed for a mixed intake of animal and non animal products, and this is hugely evident to anyone who ever taken a biology class. Herbivorous animals tend to have differently developed digestive systems and teeth than we humans have. So to deny yourself meat, for whatever conjured-up reason, CAN be seen similarly as denying yourself food at all (anorexia), but it's more like pumping 87 octane gas into your Rx-7. (Which should be a federal crime)

Actually, I go as far as saying that vegetables are barely compatible with the human body. In order to get any nutrition from them, they must be cooked, and in that process they loose a lot of it.

Believe it or not, I'm a health-nut. About 90% of my diet consists of some mix of meats, fruits, and perhaps some legumes like soy (I'm presuming soy is a legume). When I cut out vegetables and starches my 10k times drop like crazy.

[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>

Well I eat fish....as I said before.
I eat fish cause its damn tasty and has good protein.
People that say that the human body was meant to consume meat AND vegetables are correct, however it was also meant to consume a LARGE amount of non-meat sbstances, balancing it off with a very scacre amount of meat.
I don't preach vegetarianism, I'm not a vegetarian(pescatarian) I do think that it is a good thing however. I have nothing against people who eat or avocate eating meat, hell my Ex girlfriend ate meat, and I didn't even try and stop her(I just wouldn't kiss her if she ate beef)
of course you can argue forever over a topic such as this one. when the only real sloution is understanding where a vegetarian/vegan comes from, and then you will probably not need to argue with them. veganism is a little bit un-natural(ironic isn't it) just abou all other animals on earth survive through eating some form of another animal or some product of an animal....etc. and in not even eating animal products you could put yourself into a health situation(but the smart vegans...don't)

Round table pizza will sell you a pizza with no cheese and a lot of extra vegies if your a vegan....its really good I've had it multiple times.

I eat many soy based products, lately I've been taking a liking to morning star fake meats. cause even though I don't eat meat I still do like the taste(I've always hated the texture) and the morningstar products have a better texture than beef and chicken and they taste almost identical.

On a related note, is there anything ethically wrong with farm raised fish? How do they farm raise them. Are they like fish in a fishtank or do they have lots of room to swim around?

I tried Rice Dream and I liked the taste. The problem is that it has a greasy feel to it in the mouth. Then I tried the no fat one and it didn't feel greasy but just tasted like water. Any ideas?

The "I'm a vegan for health reasons" is exactly the disorder I refer to. If you vehemently detest killing animals, that's one thing, but if you're a vegan or vegetarian for "health reasons" then I'm on your case. Interestingly, many of the vegetarians I know are some of the least healthy / fit people I know. I have yet to actually meet a vegetarian that is healthier than I, and I'm a person whose diet is more than 50% meat (I count eggs and fish as meat).

I know a lot of girls and women who have taken up vegetarianism lately because it can provide them with an ultra-low calorie diet rather easily. So in this respect it's a fad that came along with ultra-thin models. These women all claim "health reasons." The more reliable truth is that they want to look like models without doing much excercise.

If you want to loose weight fast, go ahead and gorge yourself with anything you want. Just make sure to make a hobby out of 10k's.

"I have yet to actually meet a vegetarian that is healthier than I, and I'm a person whose diet is more than 50% meat (I count eggs and fish as meat)."

This is hilarious. How could your diet be more than 50% meat? When you eat a bowl of cereal in the morning do you also eat a bowl of meat to match it? A meal at a Chinese restaurant is not 50% meat when you consider the rice and the vegetables. Do you bring along extra meat with you?

I'm vegetarian (not vegan), and have been since I was in my teens. What caused me to quit meat was two scary episodes of food poisoning in a month, one caused by a KFC meal, and the other from some pork sausages. Shortly after that, I saw a documentary on factory farming, one of the grossest things I have ever seen on TV, and that was it for me. At first I missed things like barbecued ribs (and I still love the smell of frying bacon!), but I would never go back! Now, food has never tasted better!

Although a little more expensive, I always eat organically grown produce, since the notion of my body trying to deal with foreign chemicals it is not equipped to cope with, such as pesticides, herbicides and fungicides, is scary. Not only that, but organic veggies taste soooo much nicer!

[quote]Originally posted by spindler:
<strong>"I have yet to actually meet a vegetarian that is healthier than I, and I'm a person whose diet is more than 50% meat (I count eggs and fish as meat)."

This is hilarious. How could your diet be more than 50% meat? When you eat a bowl of cereal in the morning do you also eat a bowl of meat to match it? A meal at a Chinese restaurant is not 50% meat when you consider the rice and the vegetables. Do you bring along extra meat with you?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm glad you asked. When I do eat breakfast, which depends on the day, I eat a tuna fish sandwich or some hard boiled eggs. I've never liked traditional breakfast foods. For lunch, I usually eat leftover meat from dinner plus some fruit. Or if I'm at school, some meat along with some fruit. For dinner, I eat primarily meat. . . Is it that hard to believe? It's not like I eat red meat everyday. . . I save that for the weekends .

I've told you that I'm a health nut. I have a very high protein diet because I run a lot. The carbs I eat tend to be simple sugars. In the end, what foods are the tastiest? For me it's meats and fruits, so it's bliss to be on the diet that I'm on, which also happens to be perfect for my running and athletic pursuits. I also love soy milk and generally vegan protein foods.

I probably get more starch from beer than I get from the food I eat.

First of all, I'd like to apologize for any offensive comments I may have made to Willoughby. I realized that he's against killing animals, but I may have slipped him into some of my arguments. My fault. I'd also like to point out that I think everybody should have the right to live the way they choose. The big point is that vegans/vegetarians so often annoy me with their babble about their creed, yet none of them really gets it across. Even the lacto-ovo's I know just don't have the same stamina as meat-eaters. I don't see how it's healthy, when their performance is worse.

I have low cholesterol and good blood pressure. My resting pulse is 59 (kind of high for a runner, but it's genetic) I never get sick. I am 6 feet tall and 160lbs with about 6% body fat. I can run a mile in 4 and a half minutes.

When I started the diet I'm on currently is when I stopped getting sick. I still eat vegetables, but I don't make meals out of them.

So that's my logic, plain and simple.

I'm a member of PETA -- People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.

Yes I know it's an old (and lame) joke. I don't care.

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: TheAlmightyBabaramm ]</p>

Some years ago , i saw a TV emission made by the BBC.

Concerning Vegetarians, they where no medical problems with thas sort of diet.

Vegans (vegetaliens in french) is more problematic, it's very difficult to have all the necessary proteins for your health. Vegans is not good for the growth of childrens and should be prohiben for them. When you are adult you can rule your own choice, but parents should not oblige childs to go in a specific way.

Otherwise, but just a personal thought i don't understand why you should not drink milk : afterall whe are all mammelans whether you eat grass like deer or meat like tiger. Milk is the only food with fruits where you are not oblige to kill a living creature (vegetal or animal).

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>



But anyway...6% body fat!!? Wow. Can you even pinch any of your skin? hehe

You know whats really weird. When they checked my body fat, they made me hold some strange device between my 2 hands and some how that measures it. Not sure how that works but I found it kinda kooky. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

Anyone know how/why it works?</strong><hr></blockquote>
the less you have fat the moore easy to pinch your skin, try with the skin of the dorsal hand, and then compare it with the skin of the anterior thig.

The device works with electricity : it's a question of electrical impedance, fat is a bad electrical conductor, the less you have fat the more you are a good electrical conductor.

There is a another scientifical way to measure the fat : it's by the IRM which can compare the signal of water alone and whater linked to the fat : this is more precise but is only used for highly scientific applications.
This make me remember a little story, when i was a young student in medecine, there was a demonstration of IRM scanner , someone ask it there was a athlete here, one of the student who was all sham, said yes, he enter in the machine and the answer came after one minute : sorry but you have too fat : you are not an athlete.

Spline Model, the fact that you're physically fit and even athletic, while eating an extremely meat-heavy diet, does not constitute any kind of proof that a meat-heavy diet is the most healthy. There are far more world-class distance runners who eat a diet with very little meat, and who find that a too-heavy diet bogs them down.

Does that mean I think you're lying, and that you're not really a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet? No, I believe you. I was once a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet too!

But there are also lots of examples of the opposite.... Dave Scott, Edwin Moses, etc.

[quote]Originally posted by spindler:
<strong>On a related note, is there anything ethically wrong with farm raised fish? How do they farm raise them. Are they like fish in a fishtank or do they have lots of room to swim around?

I tried Rice Dream and I liked the taste. The problem is that it has a greasy feel to it in the mouth. Then I tried the no fat one and it didn't feel greasy but just tasted like water. Any ideas?</strong><hr></blockquote>


I primarily try to eat fish that I catch in the pacific ocean...but I haven't gone fishing in a long while, so I settle for fish other people catch in the pacific ocean I'm sure I have eaten farm fish and all that, but I try to eat stuff straight from the sea....or lake..but I prefer the ocean.
there is lots of good fish up north...but I live down south were the fish is .....so-so.....at least compared to washington and oregon and canada and all that.

[quote]Originally posted by sizzle chest:
<strong>Spline Model, the fact that you're physically fit and even athletic, while eating an extremely meat-heavy diet, does not constitute any kind of proof that a meat-heavy diet is the most healthy. There are far more world-class distance runners who eat a diet with very little meat, and who find that a too-heavy diet bogs them down.

Does that mean I think you're lying, and that you're not really a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet? No, I believe you. I was once a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet too!

But there are also lots of examples of the opposite.... Dave Scott, Edwin Moses, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
there will ALWAYS be exceptions. I personally stopped eating meat for no particular reason, I never liked the texture and feel of beef much to begin with, I did like the taste but I didn't like how it felt and I didn't like that it came from(or usually came from) animals who have been chemically treated and ****ed with so much. I still really like chicken....though I don't eat to much of it, Like I offically don't eat chicken, but Don't be too surprised if I have a chicken sandwich every once in a while(not likely since I got morning star chicken sandwhiches
I never really liked the taste of pork or the greasiness of bacon and sausage so that was easy to put down.
but I've always liked the texture and flavor of fish, so much so that I still eat it regardless.

there are always bound to be exceptions and people that are super healthy and onl yeat meat, or people that are unhealthy and have a super balanced diet and excerise alot....so individual examples definatly don't PROOVE any general things.

Well, I've been a vegetarian (and now vegan) for all 20 years of my existence and I am quite healthy. Yes, I am a little thin, but my entire family is thin (and no, they're not vegetarians). So I, personally, believe that you can be vegetarian AND/or vegan and still be healthy. But I'm not a PHd and I'm not a registered dietician, so what do I know?

-Y

[ 02-25-2002: Message edited by: Ybot ]</p>

Thinking about what Spline Model said reminded me of something funny.

I remember reading stories about Bill Rogers (many-time Boston Marathon champion, long America's best or 2nd best marathoner when the "running boom" started) living on nothing but huge quantities of beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it. This is something I read about probably 20 years ago, when I was running cross-country and track in high school (and eating a diet only slightly more nutritious than the one Rogers described). Lots of Coke, Doritos, cold pizza, hot dogs, BBQ ribs, fast food.

Of course most of the competitive runners I know (including my best friend, who ended up running on a Nike sponsored Hood-to-Coast Relay team with Alberto Salazar that won in a record-setting time one year) eat pretty light foods, lots of fruit and pasta, but in really huge quantities. Sort of unofficial near-vegetarians.

I eat anything that tastes good, hey! I am a Lineman.

I'm an ex-vegetarian. I usually eat veg when I can. It was an interesting life, but people would look down at me for not eating meat, which I think was whack.

Anyway, if you choose correctly, you can eat plenty. It's not bad at all. I don't know how vegans survive though. There are by-products of cow in notebooks.

[quote]Originally posted by Anarchangel:
<strong>I'm an ex-vegetarian. I usually eat veg when I can. It was an interesting life, but people would look down at me for not eating meat, which I think was whack.

Anyway, if you choose correctly, you can eat plenty. It's not bad at all. I don't know how vegans survive though. There are by-products of cow in notebooks.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Then it must be terrible to don't be aloud to eat their notebooks

A Story: This is my first year in college and I am currently living in the dorms. Our male RA is a vegetarian; he's thin, pale, and never has any energy. When we all first moved in, one person thought he had cancer, another thought he was anemic or something. We have since gotten him start eating chicken and now's his skin has color again and we can tell he's more energetic.

Lesson: While the common idea is that vegetarianism is healthy, it can also be very unhealthy. A lot of people seem to become vegetarians so that they can live healthier, but it's not that simple. Living healthily takes work, no matter what kind of lifestyle you live.

----------

The problem with being vegetarian (or vegan), is that humans are omnivores. We are made to eat meats as well as fruits, vegetables, and the like. However, too much of the wrong kinds of meat can be a bad thing.

A common misconception among vegetarians is that meat is meat. But there are different kinds of meat. Red meatsbeef and porkare needed because they provide us with the b-vitamins that we need. White meatsfish and poultryprovide us with the protein that we need. And when I say fish, I mean white fish. Certain fish have that "fishy" taste which means lots of oils which is not good. White fish don't have that "fishy" taste... trout comes to mind.

Many people think eating meat is unhealthy because they don't undestand what I stated above. Red meat is good in small portions, SMALL portions. Too much can be bad for you heart, cholesterol, can cause colon cancer, etc. "Fishy" fish are not good for you. White meats are good for you and can (and should) be eaten more than red meats.

If someone chooses to be vegetarian, they need to make sure that they are getting the necessary b-vitamins and proteins through other food sources. If not, then they are being an unhealthy vegetarian. If someone chooses to eat meat, they need to understand the different types and uses and eat them accordingly.

Either way, vegetarian or not, it is possible to be healthy or unhealthy.

[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>[b
Here's an example contrary to your opinion.

<a href="http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html" target="_blank">http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html</a>


I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
This link is pure fantasy and is pseudoscientific. Men are omnivorous from milleniums, baboons don't have claws either and they eat meat. Rodent have claws and do not eat meat generally.

Thousands years ago, before men learn to cultivate (perhaps the biggest evolution in the human history, even bigger than the discovering of fire), men where hunting and picking.

Our teeth and our intestinal systems are very different from a cow.

And this is the last and more essential point : there is twenty species of amin's acid. At the exception of Colza , the vegetals does not contain all the amin's acid we need. Plant eater have a metabolism that he is able to synthetise all this amin's acid they need. Humans has not this ability.

We are definitively omnivorous like bear.

Well as a society we certainly weren't meant biologically to be eating the diet that we are eating today. Unless they find cave paintings of early man taking down a paleolithic ring-ding.

I have no problems with vegetarianism or vegans. I believe that with work they can get as much of the necessary vitamins and proteins as omnivores. I am more concerned with the people in the world who consider Funyuns a vegetable. Obesity is by all accounts an epidemic. It's far too easy to drop into McDonalds for fuel (I refuse to call that food, and I have eaten fast food -In'n'out- in the past month) than it is to plan ahead for something nutritious. It's easier to tell youself that you'll have something healthy the next meal and grab the snickers and a coke.

And I don't think that meat is bad (I love meat, good meat that I can savor, not a pre-pressed piece of ground shoe leather dripping "secret sauce" on my shoes)- it's the things that they pump into it that are. 90% of us don't watch what we eat. I applaud vegans and vegetarians for at least paying attention, as well as the carnivore with the 6% body fat and the 4 minute mile. The only way I co do that is in my car.

[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>crawlingparanoia I agree with you 100% except isn't pork "The other white meat"?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Seriously though, the b vitamins are essential. Thats why I drink soy and rice milk that is fortified (sp?) with b vitamins, especially B-12.

While I agree that you can be a very healthy meat eater, as well as being a very healthy vegetarian, there is a big debate about our bodies being "made to digest meat".

Here's an example contrary to your opinion.

<a href="http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html" target="_blank">http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html</a>

However, I'm not sure about that. If you have any facts that you can show me to prove that the human body was made to digest meat I'd like to see those too.

I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

the canine teeth are designed with meat in mind....however....the fact that we onle have 2...is peculiar. it makes me wonder that perhaps humans have through evolution, lost previous sets of canine teeth to bring about a more herbavore-vegetarian diet.

I read a big article abou it, and it said that though humans ARE omnivores....just barely.
the current homo-sapien sapien phsyical construction is more biased towards eating things that are non-meat(according to the article)but we are still CAPABLE of eating meat, and we are still supposed to have a _little_ meat here and there.
I eat fish....and I have a little chicken here and there...I'm not sure about my B-vitamins but I have protein covered....I eat _alot_ of ice cream if thats worth anything

[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>Your body can digest cardboard too, but that doesn't mean you should eat it.

I guess its not black or white on the issue of our digestive system. I mean I can't even digest lactose! Yes, I'm lactose intolerant, but that happened before I ever even considered being vegetarian. I suffered a lot as a little kid from simple things like pizza and ice cream.
Took awhile till we figured out it was dairy </strong><hr></blockquote>

my sister used to LOVE mangos, she ate a mango a day at least....now she's allergic to them and gets a nasty rash around her mouth if she eats them(though I think mango flavored products don't affect her)
I hope nothing like that happens to me...
I never drink milk straight(mostly just with cereal) I've never really liked the taste or feel of milk....but I've also never really like soy milk(though I am going to give it another shot)
I would hate to be lactose-intolerant...I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.

[quote]Originally posted by Willoughby:
<strong>

One word: "Tofutti"

I don't know anyone who can tell the difference between it and real ice cream. There's also a lot of other fake ice cream products. Not that you even want to switch, but you should give them a try at least once just to see if you'd enjoy them.</strong><hr></blockquote>


i've had it before...its great...toffuti cuties are great too. I love it as a subsitiute to the real thing.

Ok, I read the first page (not post- page), and all that aside I have one question to all meat eaters. Could you eat man (or woman) meat, and I don't mean in a sexual way. I'm talkin' like a big muscle let's say fore arm lopped off and thrown on your grill. Yummy

[quote]Originally posted by onlooker:
<strong>Ok, I read the first page (not post- page), and all that aside I have one question to all meat eaters. Could you eat man (or woman) meat, and I don't mean in a sexual way. I'm talkin' like a big muscle let's say fore arm lopped off and thrown on your grill. Yummy </strong><hr></blockquote>

I think it's a general law of nature not to eat one's own kind unless desperate. I think I fall into the same category. I'd eat man if worse came to worse. Like if I were stranded on an island and my companion fell out of a tree an died. I'd rather eat him than starve to death.

[quote]long America's best or 2nd best marathoner when the "running boom" started) living on nothing but huge quantities of beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it.<hr></blockquote>
I love beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it! Bring out the Helmanns. . . The trouble is that the mayonnaise doesn't add that much to it to justify the effort unless you have a squeeze bottle. Give me a six pack of Becks, a greasy achovy pizza, and an hour of BattleBots and you've got a happy Splinemodel.

In order to eat healthily in general, I've found that I have to have fun from time to time.

[quote]I would hate to be lactose-intolerant...I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.<hr></blockquote>

I took a drug several years ago (8 years) called vantin that somehow shrivled up my lactase producing glands (it was later taken off the market because of this and similar side-effects). So I stopped drinking milk, but continued to eat ice cream and suffer afterwards because I like it so much.

After a 10 mile run or any sort of heavy endurance workout, there's nothing more gratifying that polishing off a half gallon of your favorite flavor (aside from the pizza and beer thing above). . . Yes, I'm a glutton. It's a lot easier to do this now, too, because I think my glands have healed.

-------

Also, having looked at that table, I found some interesting similarities between me and the meat eater.

- I don't produce much saliva. I actually have a condition known as dry-mouth.
- My intestinal tract is really short comparatively. I guess it's hard to explain this one, but this was noticed qualitatively and from an X-ray.
- I produce a lot of stomach acid. See the Maalox bottles in the trash for verification. (oddly, I only get trouble from eating Italian food)

[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>