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Apple taken to task for reporting partners' child labor violations - Page 3

post #81 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by svesan03 View Post

He found a report, was too lazy to do any comparative studies with similar companies or any investigation of his own on child labor practices. He sat at home with a beer and made things easy on himself by banging out a story in short order. He's a lazy sod who should be fired for printing crap... but hey... it's the Telegraph for heaven's sake, it's about par with the News of the World...

Editorial License
  • Apple releases Supplier Responsibility Report (SRP)*
  • A Malcolm Moore in Shanghai writes an article† for the Technology Section of the London Newspaper, the Telegraph, primarily summing up the Monitoring Compliance section of Apple's SRP starting on page 13* and 16.
  • The Editor of the Telegraph receives Moore's article and indulges in what is known as 'Yellow Journalism"
    Quote:
    Yellow Journalism, also known as the "Yellow Presss", is a type of journalism that downplays legitimate news in favor of eye-catching headlines that sell more newspapers. Sometimes it deceives the audience it is intended for. It may feature exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, sensationalism, or unprofessional practices by news media organizations or journalists.†

    by creating a 'sensational' headline, i.e,

    "Apple admits using child labour", which is totally out of context, but a common practice used to grab their readers. **
  • The editor of the AppleInsider picks up the Telegraph article and compounds the issue by indulging in his own form of, 'Yellow Journalism' by sensationalizing an equally bogus headline in reference to the Telegraph copy, i.e, "Apple taken to task for reporting partners' child labor violations" which it too is taken out of context.***
In both cases, both editors are equally responsible for misleading their readers, and they wonder why we distrust them so much.††† *http://images.apple.com/supplierresp...ess_Report.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...ld-labour.html
**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism
***http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...iolations.html
††† http://people-press.org/report/543/
post #82 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

I meant to say that is is very high.

On what basis? It is far higher than industry average.

I am not against market capitalism, but I don't worship it either. Market capitalism, by itself, leads to Dickensian labor conditions, social stress, unions, and people who advocate communism.

I think capitalists (and the rest of us) are better off if they self-limit by using social responsibility metrics. As consumers, we have every right to demand it.

Otherwise, the limits will come anyway, but in a more disruptive fashion resulting in the destruction of far more wealth.

You either believe free market capitalism or you don't. No one is talking about 'worshipping' it.

Spades of evidence show that, although the causality is not easy to disentangle, it more likely that companies that do 'well' tend to do 'good,' rather than the reverse. More profits leads to more investment, more growth, more employment, better conditions for employees and suppliers, more corporate giving, more taxes for government, etc., i.e., better corporate citizenship overall. (By 'doing well,' I am talking about companies that create value for the long run, i.e., not just quarter-to-quarter managed earnings growth.)

The 'average profit margin' in the computer industry is, as you well know, pathetically low, close to zero. I would dread the day that Apple reverts to the industry mean, since I believe (and evidence shows) that a company such as Apple with its higher margins is far more likely to get us to the world that you want than the 'average' computer maker.
post #83 of 123
It's not just the right thing to do, but it's a competitive advantage as well. Given a choice between products would you choose the product from the company that is socially responsible, or the one that says and does nothing about social responsibility?

Many large organizations will choose the former, because it also makes it look socially responsible. If we all did this the world would be a better place.
post #84 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

It is good that they are cracking down. It is not good that they use companies that treat their employees like slave labor.

It would be great if they used American factories. Maybe some of the $40,000,000,000 could be used for bringing more manufacturing in-house? ISTM that there may be additional benefits to doing so beyond being able to avoid using slave labor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

SHAME ON APPLE
MOVE THE JOBS TO THE USA

Sure. And go out of business in 6 months.

Unfortunately, we, as consumers, have allowed the walmartization of America. We'll buy anything if it's cheap and don't give a damn about quality, performance, service, or anything but price. Under that scenario, production goes wherever it's cheapest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Yes, Apple could be worse, but it could also be better.

They're already better than anyone else in the industry. Where did Dell or HP or Sony or any of the others audit their suppliers to determine if they were using appropriate working conditions.

To hear all the whiners, it's OK to use slave-lord suppliers as long as you don't look into their working conditions. If you look into the working conditions and put a stop to illegal and immoral behavior, you're evil.

Go figure.
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post #85 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Bully for Apple.

I'm personally waiting for some lib-trash to pull out one of the 'Americans are fools' type of comments that are oh so plentiful here.
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post #86 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You live in NJ and ask this question? Have you driven down the NJ Turnpike, and looked on either side?!

You beat me to it. Rather ironic, no? Although as you head West, there are certainly prettier places than the industrial parks near Newark.

And when did the Newark Airport become Newark "Liberty" International Airport?

The only thing that ever got "liberated" in the Newark Airport was my gold watch in the parking lot when I was heading for my rental car one dark and dreary evening.
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post #87 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Sure. And go out of business in 6 months.

Unfortunately, we, as consumers, have allowed the walmartization of America. We'll buy anything if it's cheap and don't give a damn about quality, performance, service, or anything but price. Under that scenario, production goes wherever it's cheapest.



They're already better than anyone else in the industry. Where did Dell or HP or Sony or any of the others audit their suppliers to determine if they were using appropriate working conditions.

To hear all the whiners, it's OK to use slave-lord suppliers as long as you don't look into their working conditions. If you look into the working conditions and put a stop to illegal and immoral behavior, you're evil.

Go figure.

look dude there are no clear answers >>no matter what road you take there are headaches
and agree with what you are saying

i am only saying that american and european workers enjoy work place laws that protect them
these laws add to the cost of any product produced
so the asians cut the price by shabby treatment of their workers

on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD AMERICAN CAN COMPETE WITH ANYONE /
APPLE EATS AT OUR TABLE
APPLE SHOULD OPEN SOME FACTORIES HERE

apple being a better citizen than anyone else does not excuse its bad actions here .
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post #88 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You either believe free market capitalism or you don't. No one is talking about 'worshipping' it.

Actually, you are, precisely when you make that binary formulation. Belief is a religious notion.

I no more "believe" in free market capitalism than I believe in hammers or gravity. A hammer is a tool, as is capital. The market is a natural phenomenon, like gravity.

We can use these things, but they are not the solution to all problems. No successful toolbox has only hammers, and no successful country lacks market and labor regulation, for example.

By the way, there is nothing free about labor in a dictatorship like China, where there is little legal recourse for labor or communities that may be harmed by toxic waste, for example. Not to mention industrial espionage. Ask Google.

If free market capitalism depends on non-free human resources, then what exactly is free about it? It's really easy to say the words "free market", but Apple's value chain has some definitely non-free links in it.
post #89 of 123
Definitely a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.
post #90 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They're already better than anyone else in the industry. Where did Dell or HP or Sony or any of the others audit their suppliers to determine if they were using appropriate working conditions.

Google is your friend. All the major companies do audits.

They are all members of EICC , and follow similar audit practices, with similar codes of conduct.

Apple is leading nothing here. This is why the article is a whitewash.
post #91 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisatosAngel View Post

It does give you something to talk about at work at lunch times though if your company provides papers for your reading pleasure. You take bets on today's `Daily Fail' headlines or the `Daily [s]Express'. You even get amusing headline generator sites. `HAS THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT GIVEN HOUSE PRICES SWINE FLU?'

It's fun to tear them apart; but at the same time you can't help but worry that there are a significant number of people in the world that take `The Sun' as gospel truth. There again there are a significant number of people that take AI as gospel truth too... ^_^;

Precisely, all of it is English Humour! Not a bit of reality in them. And they claim google in their looming future. It is not low advertising prices, it is bad journalism, that is dooming the industry!
post #92 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Google is your friend. All the major companies do audits.

They are all members of EICC , and follow similar audit practices, with similar codes of conduct.

Apple is leading nothing here. This is why the article is a whitewash.

This is the perfect example of "straw man".
Nothing in your statements above address "WHY" (in your opinion) the article is a "whitewash".
post #93 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Actually, you are, precisely when you make that binary formulation. Belief is a religious notion.

I no more "believe" in free market capitalism than I believe in hammers or gravity. A hammer is a tool, as is capital. The market is a natural phenomenon, like gravity.

We can use these things, but they are not the solution to all problems. No successful toolbox has only hammers, and no successful country lacks market and labor regulation, for example.

By the way, there is nothing free about labor in a dictatorship like China, where there is little legal recourse for labor or communities that may be harmed by toxic waste, for example. Not to mention industrial espionage. Ask Google.

If free market capitalism depends on non-free human resources, then what exactly is free about it? It's really easy to say the words "free market", but Apple's value chain has some definitely non-free links in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Google is your friend. All the major companies do audits.

They are all members of EICC , and follow similar audit practices, with similar codes of conduct.

Apple is leading nothing here. This is why the article is a whitewash.

Again, you overstate and dissemble. No one said anything about unregulated free market capitalism. That is a silly premise (just as your implied view that a belief in virtues of free market capitalism is equivalent to "worship."). Also, you set up a totally false (and contradictory) dichotomy when, on the one hand, you want the jobs back in the US (i.e., you want to deprive Chinese workers of theirs) and yet on the other hand you bemoan that workers in China are 'non-free' (i.e., you not only want them to have jobs, but jobs with 'free' jobs). Which one are you for?

Are working conditions in China worse than in the US? You bet. However, are working conditions in China -- esp. in places like Apple factories -- better than, say, even five years ago? You bet. And that is a function of China growing more prosperous and companies like Apple putting pressure (both of which we all should, presumably, root for.)

As I said, it is quite unclear what you stand for.

As your point about Apple "leading nothing here," you're asserting then that Apple must be lying when it says that a majority of its suppliers report that is the first such audit they've experienced from a customer company.

What is your basis for saying Apple is lying? And, if they are not, how can you say this is not leading the industry pack?
post #94 of 123
Do you have links to any reports published by Nokia?

They were named in the Telegraph article as the factory where 62 workers were poisoned by hexane was making phone components for both Apple and Nokia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

First Apple is not alone in these types of inspections. Nokia, for example, has done them for years and has been comparably effective.
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post #95 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

if Apple didn't say anything at all there'd be no story, they'd just fly under the radar like everyone else.

Worse: Apple would still be the only one accused of these problems by the press, while all the other companies would fly under the radar.
post #96 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsawyercjs View Post

Worse: Apple would still be the only one accused of these problems by the press, while all the other companies would fly under the radar.

apple is above the rest
apple should make a new rule no one under the age of 23 yrs old is allowed to work in its factories .apple should invite the world to review all its factories and make a binding report on its finding's on what to change if anything ??

apple went 30 percent green
fantastic
lets go farther now
i repeat myself now by saying apple should open factories where its bread gets buttered

besides all that
APPLE ROCKS
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post #97 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

This is the perfect example of "straw man".
Nothing in your statements above address "WHY" (in your opinion) the article is a "whitewash".

i still can't quite fathom
STRAW MAN

??
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post #98 of 123
In England, the Telegraph is known as the "house paper" of the Conservative party. If you follow it for very long, you start seeing the slant in much of what they write. They are more concerned with pushing a political point of view than in reporting news accurately. It is similar to Fox News in the US.

Since Apple in this case is doing something usually associated with liberals, i.e. protecting the underdogs, the Telegraph will tend to slant their reporting to make Apple look bad. If Apple instead had taken a position that it's not the job of business to protect people, it is the job of business to make profits, then the Telegraph would have slanted their language to laud Apple.
post #99 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

i still can't quite fathom
STRAW MAN

??


Maybe if you took 10 seconds and looked it up, it might have saved you the post.
post #100 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviet02 View Post

Maybe if you took 10 seconds and looked it up, it might have saved you the post.

i did
i have also seen it used a lot lately..
i have trouble with its usage and in what context //

i guess i have a kind of mental block
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post #101 of 123
woot?
post #102 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by muser View Post

In England, the Telegraph is known as the "house paper" of the Conservative party. If you follow it for very long, you start seeing the slant in much of what they write. They are more concerned with pushing a political point of view than in reporting news accurately. It is similar to Fox News in the US.
.

The Telegraph is no worse than any of the other papers (such as the Guardian).

They pretty much all mix fact with fiction, as it's much easier to spread nonsense if there is at least a small element of truth in the mix.

Infact I would give The Telegraph an above average reality rating. Comparatively speaking. And for the record, I'm not defending this particular article.


In general I hate british news, and I can't stand half the people in this stupid country either because they readily believe the nonsense that they are spoon fed.
post #103 of 123
deleted
post #104 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsawyercjs View Post

Worse: Apple would still be the only one accused of these problems by the press, while all the other companies would fly under the radar.

You guys have got to be kidding. Apple can do many things. The one thing it can't is fly under the radar, on any subject. This is not a stealth company.

Apple is special. Being held to a higher standard simply comes with the territory.

Whining is what those who don't understand this are doing.
post #105 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

The 'average profit margin' in the computer industry is, as you well know, pathetically low, close to zero. I would dread the day that Apple reverts to the industry mean, since I believe (and evidence shows) that a company such as Apple with its higher margins is far more likely to get us to the world that you want than the 'average' computer maker.

I actually agree with you here. If you look at my posting history you will see I nearly always defend Apple's premium pricing.

One of the reasons for that is labor. Apple spends more on engineering labor because it does more in-house. People who constantly whine about the cost of Apple products don't understand that if they had their wish, a lot of Apple talent would have to be fired, and the products would start to show it.

Well, I happen to think manufacturing labor is also important. Factory workers are humans too. I cannot fully enjoy my Mac or my iPhone if I know sweatshop labor was required to build it.
post #106 of 123
Wow, so a few kids out of tens of thousands of workers????? Slow new day I guess.
post #107 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Do you have links to any reports published by Nokia?

They were named in the Telegraph article as the factory where 62 workers were poisoned by hexane was making phone components for both Apple and Nokia.

Nokia has a labor section in their website, as does Dell and others. They all say more or less the same things:
  • We have labor standards
  • We comply with local laws
  • We audit our suppliers
  • We found X issues, resolved Y of them, and overall things are good
  • We will continue to improve
  • We are short on specifics and will continue to be
post #108 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Apple said the child workers are now no longer being used, or are no longer underage. "In each of the three facilities, we required a review of all employment records for the year as well as a complete analysis of the hiring process to clarify how underage people had been able to gain employment," Apple said, in an annual report on its suppliers.

So what's the problem?

[Redacted]
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post #109 of 123
That link you provided is interesting:-

Quote:
8) OHS
Issues found were related to personal protective equipment (PPE) use (mainly earplugs), first aid kit stocks and fire safety. Despite employees being required to use this equipment a small number were choosing not to do so. Factories were advised to increase employees’ awareness of the benefits of using PPE, improve the process for filling first aid kits, and ensure adequate number of trained people with first aid and fire safety skills.

All findings have an action plan in place and those factories with an action plan have been scheduled for a reassessment during the first half of 2009 to ensure full compliance with the framework.

It didn't help much with this, did it?

Quote:
Taiwanese Apple, Nokia supplier admits more employees were poisoned
26 February 2010 13:53 by James "Dela" Delahunty

A Taiwanese company that provides displays and electronics components for Nokia, Apple and others has confirmed that more employees than previously thought were poisoned by a chemical used in the manufacturing processes at the plant. Last summer, it emerged that between 47 and 49 employees were sickened by exposure to n-hexane, and now a Wintek spokesman admitted the figure is actually 62.

Source

Isn't this thread about 15 year old workers?

Quote:
6) Child labour avoidance
Children don't have the physics, knowledge or experience of an adult, and therefore children enjoy distinct rights to protection.

Employment processes must be designed to strive that no children are working in factories. Age of the candidate must always be verified prior to recruitment. Young workers may be employed according to local legislation to support youth employment. Young worker refers to any person at least the age of 15 but under 18, or older if so specified in local legislation. However, young workers must not be exposed to any hazardous work, overtime work or nightshifts, as per ILO recommendations.

Source

So Nokia actually supports the use of child labour which Apple is being admonished for i.e. 15 year olds in the workforce.

Quote:
At least eleven 15-year-old children were discovered to be working last year in three factories which supply Apple.

Source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

Nokia has a labor section in their website, as does Dell and others. They all say more or less the same things:
  • We have labor standards
  • We comply with local laws
  • We audit our suppliers
  • We found X issues, resolved Y of them, and overall things are good
  • We will continue to improve
  • We are short on specifics and will continue to be
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post #110 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

This comment is totally out of line here and is soooo racist

not to mention idiotic - you want to blame the descendants for the ancestor's crimes? Logic - FAIL!

The fact that you swung in the irrelevant and disgusting word "pedophile" gives some insight into your intellect.
post #111 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You either believe free market capitalism or you don't. No one is talking about 'worshipping' it.

Hey "Bobby Business Boy," there are as many variations of "free" market capitalism as countries on the planet and states in the U.S. It isn't something to "believe in" it is a general economic model based upon many (sometimes contradictory) values.

There is no problem in regulating it and in calling on those who act as if it the final arbiter of good on Earth - that would be "worshipping" it. Look at all the Ayn Rand crowd who are on their every 20-year upswing, and you'll see plenty of objectivist, capitalism worshippers.
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post #112 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

i did
i have also seen it used a lot lately..
i have trouble with its usage and in what context //

i guess i have a kind of mental block

A straw man is someone or something that you invent yourself ... as if you were making it out of straw, metaphorically. Instead of arguing against a real issue, you create an exaggerated representation of an opinion or a totally made up one that you can attack and look reasonable in attacking it while ignoring the real issue.
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post #113 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You either believe free market capitalism or you don't.

That's only true to someone with a black and white view of things.

100% free market capitalism is called anarchy, and would without a doubt result in things like baby milk laced with melanin and other widespread commercial fraud. It would also result in every single item being manufactured overseas, and virtually no market for American products. On the other hand, 100% state controlled commerce is pure communism, and the only such state that exists in the world today is North Korea. China is not even close to anti-free market capitalism.

What the US, and every state needs is free-market to a degree.

To what degree is what we disagree on.

Not simply some ignorant "free-market good, tariffs and regulations bad" attitude.
post #114 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by muser View Post

In England, the Telegraph is known as the "house paper" of the Conservative party. If you follow it for very long, you start seeing the slant in much of what they write. They are more concerned with pushing a political point of view than in reporting news accurately. It is similar to Fox News in the US.

Since Apple in this case is doing something usually associated with liberals, i.e. protecting the underdogs, the Telegraph will tend to slant their reporting to make Apple look bad. If Apple instead had taken a position that it's not the job of business to protect people, it is the job of business to make profits, then the Telegraph would have slanted their language to laud Apple.

^^^
This.
post #115 of 123
Just look to the other side, it is not happening!
Slavery ! That's normal isn't it?
But it was not in "my" backyard!


Some people just don't get it...
post #116 of 123
WOW that took action against labour violations including working 7 days in a row and working over allowed hours.

What about over here. It is common practice in the stores to be put on 7 day shifts without a break and to work well over 38 hours without getting paid a single penny of overtime. Also breaks are non-existent and those who do take breaks (by force) are seen as being militant despite being legally entitled.

At Christmas several employees were on 11 day stretches and not by choice! 7 day stretches are rare but do happen but 6 day stretches are very common and most full time retail employees will be doing them on a regular basis.....bad.....really bad!

Perhaps we need a report into the labour violations of Apple WORLDWIDE not just in China.


Think twice before applying to work for Apple.

And Apple if your reading this..... Take a long hard look at how your staff (i have friends who work for you) are being treated in the US and UK before casting judgement on companies in China.


Z CR - Scotland
post #117 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post

You'd have to be a manipulated moron to believe that humanity can survive on a toxified, deforested planet.

I am an environmentalist not despite humanity but because of it. The Earth, left to itself, will simply become a burnt cinder in a couple of billion years. By then we could be living in half the galaxy.

But if the Earth becomes a treeless toxic dump in a couple of hundred years, as we are now on a path to, the only place our civilization will go to is a well-deserved early grave.

Treeless? Who wants a treeless Earth?

Oh wait, Al Gore does! He thinks dying Trees give off too much CO2, so we should cut them all down and prevent them from decomposing.

Is this the type of "Environmentalist" you are? The kind that wants to punish and tax humanity based on fraud?
post #118 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Why is possibly good marketing necessarily a 'ploy?' Why is pursuit of energy efficiency 'sick and backward?'

More generally, if you can do well by doing good, what is wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with any of this. I just pointed out that Apple shoves Greenery in your face to make you feel guilty about buying something else. I was also just pointing out that to them, its not about the earth, its about selling computers. That shouldn't be misunderstood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You live in NJ and ask this question? Have you driven down the NJ Turnpike, and looked on either side?!

Small, insignificant fraction of what used to exist. Damn, People amaze me with their know-it-all attitudes. They drive past half a dozen smoke stacks and think they're seeing "industry".
post #119 of 123
little parts require little fingers. Whats the problem!?
post #120 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuuken View Post

So when a senator criticizes Apple (among other companies) for their practice of near-slavery by paying BELOW minimum wage to their workers with atrocious working conditions...

The Senator did not criticize Apple (or anyone else). He is simply looking into the matter and asking Apple and others for their reports.
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