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post #41 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The simple truth is that the poor in America are paying for the rich to have healthcare whilst they themselves go without.

Please explain.
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post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Trumpet, he was prescribed the dose by his doctors and then the insurance company said they won't pay for anything but 1/4 or 1/2 of the dose prescribed because they feel that works just fine. That was one time. Other times, the insurance companies claimed they didn't have the right paperwork. They've claimed all sorts of things in order to stall, delay, and hopefully not pay for his shit. That's why the state of California has successfully sued one is about to sue the other. Stop trying to justify yourself in this situation. You can't.

So you think no one has sued the governments of countries that have universal health care for lack of access to that health care? What do you think the Canadian decision was about? The government was sued due to people DYING in the waiting lists.

Likewise you think we couldn't find a case or article where a course of treatment or a procedure was desired by a physician and the powers that be within the government health organization wouldn't allow it.

These cases are easy to find. They've even been posted here. There are articles talking about entire classes of drugs not approved for use in Britain or the government demands an alternative be used when a physician wants a particular drug because that drug is deemed too expensive.

You are declaring an end to problems that we know still exist within those systems. If it doesn't solve the problem, why change it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Anyway, if what Trumpet says is true, and I highly, highly doubt it as it's consistent with his typical anti-government posturing, worst case scenario is for my friend here things remain the same while millions of other people get access to healthcare. I don't think it will be doomed to such an extent, but even then, that's far better than what we have now.

That isn't true either. Those dollars, now have to cover more people which means all the people previous covered now get less health care. Instead of getting 1/2 the desired dose your friend would now get 1/8th due to covering 10 million illegal aliens for example. Where does the something for nothing come into play? How does adding all these people cost no one anything in terms of coverage or cost? Why do you believe there is some magic wish that makes all the problems go away if only the mean and greedy people weren't so mean and greedy.

That isn't true. There isn't something for nothing. Everything has a cost somewhere. The only question is from who and to who.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #43 of 50
30% profit margins? Insane bureaucratic inefficiency for hospitals and doctors offices to get paid? Reduction in waste? There's plenty of money out there. Don't lecture me on how you can't get something for nothing.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

30% profit margins? Insane bureaucratic inefficiency for hospitals and doctors offices to get paid? Reduction in waste? There's plenty of money out there. Don't lecture me on how you can't get something for nothing.

And how much of that rampant inefficiency is due to well-meaning but ultimately harmful bureaucratic rules and decision-making coming down from on high? Competition has a way of weeding out inefficiency, interference in that process multiplies inefficiency geometrically.

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post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Please explain.

Because the systems set up so that lots of people can't afford health care. They don't earn enough! There low wages fuel the profits of the wealthy. It's that simple. The government steps in and give some of the poorest health care. So the government is subsidizing the profits of the wealthy. On top of that the health insurance companies are so evil that they scrounge whatever they can from those they insure by denying care and demanding more money for their rapidly expanding profits.

The top 300,000 wealthiest America's earn more each year than the entire bottom half of the population. That's 150,000,000 people. They each earn 440 times more than the average American wage. And they're getting richer still.

Here's some stats showing how poor the people who keep the system propped up really are-

"1 in 4 U.S. jobs pay less than a poverty-level income.

83% of those earning $75,000 or more work for companies that offer insurance, versus 24% of those who earn less than $25,000.

51% of the uninsured are $2,000 or more in medical debt. 16% owe at least $10,000.
During the 1980s, 13% of Americans age 40 to 50 spent at least one year below the poverty line; by the 1990s, 36% did.

Since 2000, the number of Americans living below the poverty line at any one time has steadily risen. Now 13% of all Americans—37 million—are officially poor.

Among households worth less than $13,500, their average net worth in 2001 was $0. By 2004, it was down to –$1,400.

Bush’s tax cuts (extended until 2010) save those earning between $20,000 and $30,000 an average of $10 a year, while those earning $1 million are saved $42,700.

2 in 5 elderly live on less than $18,000 a year, including Social Security benefits.

The true jobless rate of black men in their 20s without a high school diploma is 72%

Since 1983, college tuition has risen 115%. The maximum Pell Grant for low- and moderate-income college students has risen only 19%.

Today, 1 in 4 sub-prime lenders are predatory, charging recipients 7% in up-front fees. Conventional or “prime” mortgage users are charged only 1%.

Nationwide, the number of payday lending outlets has risen 11,000% since 1990.

The average annual interest rate on a payday loan is more than 400%, costing borrowers $3.4 billion a year.

Credit card late fees are 194% higher than in 1994.

In 2004, 7 million working poor families spent $900 million on tax prep and check-cashing fees to get their refunds sooner."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2006/07/poor-losers
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post #46 of 50
How many more jobs would there be without our illustrious minimum wage, which drains the pool of lower skill workers by artificially imposing the level of pay? How many more jobs would there be available if government hadn't manipulated the affordability of housing to attract people without a means to buy a house, only to see their entire life's savings decimated when the economy tanked? Action, meet consequence. I submit that our own government has been waging war on the poor. That's cause enough for riots in the streets.

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post #47 of 50
OK... I'm bored... so I'm gonna pick apart a few of these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

"1 in 4 U.S. jobs pay less than a poverty-level income.

I used to have one of those jobs... but I still managed to pay health insurance premiums, buy food and pay rent... without ANY government programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

51% of the uninsured are $2,000 or more in medical debt. 16% owe at least $10,000.

How many of them wish they had decided to pay insurance premiums instead of buying that new car on a payment plan...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Since 2000, the number of Americans living below the poverty line at any one time has steadily risen. Now 13% of all Americans37 millionare officially poor.

Because we keep raising the target for "poverty level" ... Americans who live at and below the "poverty level" would still be considered wealthy by most of the worlds standards. It's true... I've been to a lot of those places... it cured me of feeling sorry for U.S. welfare recipients. (I know... I'm a heartless bastard.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Bushs tax cuts (extended until 2010) save those earning between $20,000 and $30,000 an average of $10 a year, while those earning $1 million are saved $42,700.

No argument... So lets have EVERY person in the country pay a flat 15% ... NO loopholes, NO rebates, NO tax credits for ANYthing... just pay 15% (or 10%... or 20% ... pick number, and make everyone pay.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

2 in 5 elderly live on less than $18,000 a year, including Social Security benefits.

Piss Poor Planning. They made some really bad decisions throughout their life and now want the tax payers to make it so they don't have to face the consequences of their own actions/decisions???? (I know... I'm a heartless bastard.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The true jobless rate of black men in their 20s without a high school diploma is 72%

I guess they should have stayed in school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Since 1983, college tuition has risen 115%. The maximum Pell Grant for low- and moderate-income college students has risen only 19%.

Colleges (even state universities) are a business... they charge what people will pay. If you don't like the price, then DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCT... then watch their prices come back down. Contrary to popular belief, a college diploma is NOT a prerequisite for success in America. Sure, it helps, but it's not a necessity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Today, 1 in 4 sub-prime lenders are predatory, charging recipients 7% in up-front fees. Conventional or prime mortgage users are charged only 1%.

Nationwide, the number of payday lending outlets has risen 11,000% since 1990.

The average annual interest rate on a payday loan is more than 400%, costing borrowers $3.4 billion a year.

Credit card late fees are 194% higher than in 1994.

In 2004, 7 million working poor families spent $900 million on tax prep and check-cashing fees to get their refunds sooner."

These could all fall under "should have payed attention in high school." But they'r rather be in debt than live within their means. Heartless bastards like myself have little sympathy for MOST of those people... MOST of them are in that position because of their own poor decision making skills.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #48 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

OK... I'm bored... so I'm gonna pick apart a few of these.


I used to have one of those jobs... but I still managed to pay health insurance premiums, buy food and pay rent... without ANY government programs.


How many of them wish they had decided to pay insurance premiums instead of buying that new car on a payment plan...


Because we keep raising the target for "poverty level" ... Americans who live at and below the "poverty level" would still be considered wealthy by most of the worlds standards. It's true... I've been to a lot of those places... it cured me of feeling sorry for U.S. welfare recipients. (I know... I'm a heartless bastard.)


No argument... So lets have EVERY person in the country pay a flat 15% ... NO loopholes, NO rebates, NO tax credits for ANYthing... just pay 15% (or 10%... or 20% ... pick number, and make everyone pay.)


Piss Poor Planning. They made some really bad decisions throughout their life and now want the tax payers to make it so they don't have to face the consequences of their own actions/decisions???? (I know... I'm a heartless bastard.)


I guess they should have stayed in school.


Colleges (even state universities) are a business... they charge what people will pay. If you don't like the price, then DON'T BUY THEIR PRODUCT... then watch their prices come back down. Contrary to popular belief, a college diploma is NOT a prerequisite for success in America. Sure, it helps, but it's not a necessity.



These could all fall under "should have payed attention in high school." But they'r rather be in debt than live within their means. Heartless bastards like myself have little sympathy for MOST of those people... MOST of them are in that position because of their own poor decision making skills.

Has it ever crossed your mind that you might be too generous to the less bright and the less well off and not generous enough to the wealthy and intelligent?

Why shouldn't a CEO who employs thousands of productive people and who works incredibly hard pay a lower tax rate than someone who never employs anybody and in all likelihood may well cost society extra through criminal activities? Prisons and police aren't free you know and neither is the care for their victims or for themselves. And lets not forget that they stuff themselves with junk food daily and expect our dollars to pay for their care when we eat healthily and exercise to stay that way. Isn't it clear to you that those who study hard and work hard are paying society through the fruits of their labour? Unless we make them pay for the damage they cause to society how do we expect them ever to change their ways?

I'm surprised that your trips abroad didn't teach you these simple life lessons.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Because the systems set up so that lots of people can't afford health care. They don't earn enough! There low wages fuel the profits of the wealthy. It's that simple. The government steps in and give some of the poorest health care. So the government is subsidizing the profits of the wealthy. On top of that the health insurance companies are so evil that they scrounge whatever they can from those they insure by denying care and demanding more money for their rapidly expanding profits.

The top 300,000 wealthiest America's earn more each year than the entire bottom half of the population. That's 150,000,000 people. They each earn 440 times more than the average American wage. And they're getting richer still.

Here's some stats showing how poor the people who keep the system propped up really are-

"1 in 4 U.S. jobs pay less than a poverty-level income.

83% of those earning $75,000 or more work for companies that offer insurance, versus 24% of those who earn less than $25,000.

51% of the uninsured are $2,000 or more in medical debt. 16% owe at least $10,000.
During the 1980s, 13% of Americans age 40 to 50 spent at least one year below the poverty line; by the 1990s, 36% did.

Since 2000, the number of Americans living below the poverty line at any one time has steadily risen. Now 13% of all Americans37 millionare officially poor.

Among households worth less than $13,500, their average net worth in 2001 was $0. By 2004, it was down to $1,400.

Bushs tax cuts (extended until 2010) save those earning between $20,000 and $30,000 an average of $10 a year, while those earning $1 million are saved $42,700.

2 in 5 elderly live on less than $18,000 a year, including Social Security benefits.

The true jobless rate of black men in their 20s without a high school diploma is 72%

Since 1983, college tuition has risen 115%. The maximum Pell Grant for low- and moderate-income college students has risen only 19%.

Today, 1 in 4 sub-prime lenders are predatory, charging recipients 7% in up-front fees. Conventional or prime mortgage users are charged only 1%.

Nationwide, the number of payday lending outlets has risen 11,000% since 1990.

The average annual interest rate on a payday loan is more than 400%, costing borrowers $3.4 billion a year.

Credit card late fees are 194% higher than in 1994.

In 2004, 7 million working poor families spent $900 million on tax prep and check-cashing fees to get their refunds sooner."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2006/07/poor-losers

Somehow you failed to mention the high earners pay nearly all the taxes-

Quote:
In 2006, the latest available year from CBO, the top 20 percent of income earners paid 86.3 percent of all federal income taxes, an all-time high.[1] This is an increase of over 6 percent from 2000, when the top 20 percent paid 81.2 percent. During the same period, the bottom four quintiles all saw their share of the federal income tax burden fall sharply:

The bottom 20 percent of income earners' share of federal income taxes fell from -1.6 percent in 2000 to -2.8 percent in 2006;
The next 20 percent's share declined from 1.1 percent to -0.8 percent;
The middle quintile's share dropped from 5.7 percent to 4.4 percent; and
The fourth quintile's share decreased from 13.5 percent to 12.9 percent.

Code:

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/wm2420.cfm



You also failed to mention the 3.4% profit margins for insurance companies-

Quote:
Overall, the profit margin for health insurance companies was a modest 3.4 percent over the past year, according to data provided by Morningstar. That ranks 87th out of 215 industries and slightly above the median of 2.2 percent. By this measure, the most profitable industry over the past year has been beverages, with a 25.9 percent profit margin. Right behind that were healthcare real-estate trusts (firms that are basically the landlords for hospitals and healthcare facilities) and application-software (think Windows). The worst performer was copper, with a profit margin of minus 56.6 percent.

Code:

http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/flowchart/2009/08/25/why-health-insurers-make-lousy-villains.html




If the poor people would just get off their asses, put down their crack pipe or bottle, maybe they could get a good job that provides insurance, or take advantage of the health care available to them through the county, city or state they live in. Poor people in this country have plenty of opportunities, either through education programs or jobs programs.
post #50 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

You also failed to mention the 3.4% profit margins for insurance companies...

So what's the profit margin for Big Pharma? What's the average take-home for a full time physician? What's the salary for a surgeon? What's the associated cost of going to Medical School as opposed to a liberal arts Degree? Why are universities actively discouraged (by alumni and lobbyists) from expanding their medical programs? What's the profit of HMOs? What's the profit of privately managed Hospitals? What's the profit of Medical Equipment manufacturers and trading companies?

There is so much room for cost reduction it's obscene, and to deny that is intellectual honesty at best, and plain absurdity at worst.
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