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Showdown at the Supreme Court

post #1 of 128
Thread Starter 
This Tuesday the US Supreme Court will decide if the "right of the people to keep and bear arms" prevents state and local governments from banning handguns - "McDonald v. Chicago".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

If ever there was a "right", the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution sure seems as it would apply ...

Quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Quote:
The debate comes in McDonald v. Chicago, a case with great significance just on the gun-control front. A decision that states and cities may not infringe upon the right to own a firearm for self-defense could eventually call into question all manner of restrictions on gun ownership and registration, limits on who is eligible to own a gun and whether the carrying of weapons can be regulated.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

I hope the folks who claim this, that and the other is a "right" will get behind a REAL right.
post #2 of 128
Context. Intent. Applicability. Obsolescence.

Things "righters" fail to understand.

But the SC will disappoint again and side with the righters on this one.

I'm just glad I live in a place where there is an average of one gun violence related incident per year, among 6 million people. We don't need guns to defend ourselves because there are no guns to defend ourselves from! Isn't that a better world?

Some people just love the Wild Wild West.
post #3 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Context. Intent. Applicability. Obsolescence.

Things "righters" fail to understand.

But the SC will disappoint again and side with the righters on this one.

I'm just glad I live in a place where there is an average of one gun violence related incident per year, among 6 million people. We don't need guns to defend ourselves because there are no guns to defend ourselves from! Isn't that a better world?

Some people just love the Wild Wild West.

And what protection do you have against your government from simply locking you in a cell and throwing away the key for any or no reason? I thought not. (By the way, what is your source for crime statistics in Hong Kong... and how do you know if they are accurate or not? What about the Triads or other Chinese criminal organizations?)

That is the real reason US citizens must be allowed access to arms if they so choose, not necessarily because a simple robbery is imminent.

Rights are not given, but they must be defended.

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post #4 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

And what protection do you have against your government from simply locking you in a cell and throwing away the key for any or no reason? I thought not. (By the way, what is your source for crime statistics in Hong Kong... and how do you know if they are accurate or not? What about the Triads or other Chinese criminal organizations?)

That is the real reason US citizens must be allowed access to arms if they so choose, not necessarily because a simple robbery is imminent.

Rights are not given, but they must be defended.

Give me a break though...the US government if they really wanted to could provide so much more firepower than civilians have access to. A few handguns won't do shit.

 

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post #5 of 128
Thread Starter 
It's a right. Seems that fact, in and of itself, should sway folks even if they don't want to own a gun themselves.
post #6 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

It's a right. Seems that fact, in and of itself, should sway folks even if they don't want to own a gun themselves.

It is a right and myself and my .177 caliber death machine are thankful for it.

However as for swaying, those that think that Constitution is more like a concept tend to modify the understanding of it in whatever fashion they desire.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #7 of 128
In America's history when did the people have to fight their government with weapons? Never. In the Revolutionary war about 8,000 people died from direct combat. Today in America about 35,000 people die each year from gunshots and about another 100,000 people are shot but live.

Mother Jones had a piece about the imbeciles who think they're going to need to fight the government-

"THE .50 CALIBER Bushmaster bolt action rifle is a serious weapon. The model that Pvt. 1st Class Lee Pray is saving up for has a 2,500-yard range and comes with a Mark IV scope and an easy-load magazine. When the 25-year-old drove me to a mall in Watertown, New York, near the Fort Drum Army base, he brought me to see it in its glass case—he visits it periodically, like a kid coveting something at the toy store. It'll take plenty of military paychecks to cover the $5,600 price tag, but he considers the Bushmaster essential in his preparations to take on the US government when it declares martial law."
~ http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers

I haven't noticed Brits, who have strong gun laws being rounded up and killed and I can't see that happening in the US, but I can see tens of thousands of American's dying every year.

I'm not sure what the answer is though and as things stand I can understand why someone in the US might want a gun for their protection. Like tonton says, I'm glad I now live somewhere where I don't need a gun to protect myself from someone with a gun and I certainly don't think I need a gun to protect myself from the government. If things where to get that bad in the US, the reason would be because citizens HAVE guns.
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post #8 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Give me a break though...the US government if they really wanted to could provide so much more firepower than civilians have access to. A few handguns won't do shit.

Firearms won't disappear because American citizens won't allow it, and we're better off thanks to an armed citizenry despite any and all negatives that can be cited against it.

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post #9 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Give me a break though...the US government if they really wanted to could provide so much more firepower than civilians have access to. A few handguns won't do shit.

That's the obsolescence point.
post #10 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm not sure what the answer is though and as things stand I can understand why someone in the US might want a gun for their protection. Like tonton says, I'm glad I now live somewhere where I don't need a gun to protect myself from someone with a gun and I certainly don't think I need a gun to protect myself from the government. If things were to get that bad in the US, the reason would be because citizens HAVE guns.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to my gun.

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post #11 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

Firearms won't disappear because American citizens won't allow it, and we're better off thanks to an armed citizenry despite any and all negatives that can be cited against it.

Yeah, that's using your old walnut, there. Decisions without thinking!

The fact is, it's far more dangerous to live where private gun ownership is legal. But, as you say, you're "far better off".
post #12 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, that's using your old walnut, there. Decisions without thinking!

The fact is, it's far more dangerous to live where private gun ownership is legal. But, as you say, you're "far better off".

The obvious point is, citizens with access to weapons are in a better position if things get very bad. It really doesn't take a giant leap to imagine such a thing. Remember the LA riots? Do you remember which businesses were protected and survived?

"Unforeseen" things are always that way... until they happen. \

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post #13 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

The obvious point is, citizens with access to weapons are in a better position if things get very bad. It really doesn't take a giant leap to imagine such a thing. Remember the LA riots? Do you remember which businesses were protected and survived?

"Unforeseen" things are always that way... until they happen. \

I don't get it. The US is the best place in the world to live, right? Why, then, is there so much fear? Why do you have to be afraid of "things getting very bad"?

It would seem that a low sense of security would exist in a place where the system isn't really working out so well.
post #14 of 128
Perhaps the sole criteria for best doesn't consist of only the word safe.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #15 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Perhaps the sole criteria for best doesn't consist of only the word safe.

So what's maybe around the corner? I'm curious what Spam thinks too.
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post #16 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Perhaps the sole criteria for best doesn't consist of only the word safe.

Ok. How about happiest?
post #17 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ok. How about happiest?

The happiest place on Earth is Disneyland thank you very much. That's in America. America is the happiest place on Earth. QED. (I'm assuming the actual logic behind conservothinking isn't all that much better).

 

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post #18 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Ok. How about happiest?

How about the purplest?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #19 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The happiest place on Earth is Disneyland thank you very much. That's in America. America is the happiest place on Earth. QED. (I'm assuming the actual logic behind conservothinking isn't all that much better).

No, all-encompassing happiness ends beyond the Magic Kingdom.

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post #20 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So what's maybe around the corner? I'm curious what Spam thinks too.

What's around the corner? Who knows? If you know, please post, posthaste!

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post #21 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

How about the purplest?

I'd love it if anyone on this thread can explain what makes the US the bet country in the world right now. Seriously.

And in the context of this thread, I'd love to hear how anyone thinks gun ownership helps.
post #22 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

What's around the corner? Who knows? If you know, please post, posthaste!

The only thing that's around the corner is the possibility that a few idiots with guns will kill a few hundred people or so with their guns and then you won't have any more guns. The vast majority of people are not going to kill police officers.
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post #23 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

And what protection do you have against your government from simply locking you in a cell and throwing away the key for any or no reason?

It's called "the law" and it affords exactly the same protection here as it does there.
Quote:
I thought not.

True.
Quote:
(By the way, what is your source for crime statistics in Hong Kong... and how do you know if they are accurate or not?

There are plenty of published statistics, and there is no evidence that they are not true. Anyway, I'm not just praising Hong Kong for being gun-free. Australia. The UK... all these places have shown wide success in reduction of violence thanks to strict gun control.

What about them? They don't have guns. And they don't attack or really affect, even, the general public.
Quote:
That is the real reason US citizens must be allowed access to arms if they so choose, not necessarily because a simple robbery is imminent.

What is? You made no point and then said "that is the reason".
Quote:
Rights are not given, but they must be defended.

Logic is not given. It must be learned and respected.
post #24 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'd love it if anyone on this thread can explain what makes the US the bet country in the world right now. Seriously.

And in the context of this thread, I'd love to hear how anyone thinks gun ownership helps.

How about "Your rights are protected even if the President himself doesn't agree agree with the right".
post #25 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

How about "Your rights are protected even if the President himself doesn't agree agree with the right".

In all seriousness, do you honestly think the US is the only place in which that applies?
post #26 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In all seriousness, do you honestly think the US is the only place in which that applies?

Well, they've pretty much abridged the right to bear arms in most other places that might have provided competition, haven't they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_t..._and_bear_arms

Even in Canada and Australia the right to own a gun for self defense isn't recognized, from what I'm seeing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics
post #27 of 128
I'm glad that gun ownership is the metric of what makes a society free. Oh wait, glad wasn't the word I was looking for. Disgusted? Shockingly so?

 

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post #28 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Context. Intent. Applicability. Obsolescence.

Things "righters" fail to understand.

But the SC will disappoint again and side with the righters on this one.

I'm just glad I live in a place where there is an average of one gun violence related incident per year, among 6 million people. We don't need guns to defend ourselves because there are no guns to defend ourselves from! Isn't that a better world?

Some people just love the Wild Wild West.

Context: Let me guess..."A well regulated militia..." Right? So because we no longer have militias, we don't have the right any more? I hope you realize how tired this argument is.

Intent: The intent was to prevent the government from taking people's arms. Period. If you're going to analyze "context," then you'll have to research the attitude of the founding fathers as it pertains to owning weapons and government growing to0 strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's the obsolescence point.

Really, what other rights are obsolete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, that's using your old walnut, there. Decisions without thinking!

The fact is, it's far more dangerous to live where private gun ownership is legal. But, as you say, you're "far better off".

No, it's not. It's more dangerous to live in a place where criminals know you can't protect yourself.
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post #29 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm glad that gun ownership is the metric of what makes a society free. Oh wait, glad wasn't the word I was looking for. Disgusted? Shockingly so?

Again, how about "Your rights are protected even if the President himself doesn't agree agree with the right".

How free can one consider oneself if the government abridges rights?
post #30 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm glad that gun ownership is the metric of what makes a society free.

I'm glad that someone can make a statement like that and think they've achieved anything more than erecting a strawman and knocking it down.

Before getting into the various of statistical arguments not to mention appeals to emotion and so on, wouldn't an appropriate starting place for this discussion be to determine whether or not gun ownership is or is not a right and why or why not?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #31 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Context. Intent. Applicability. Obsolescence.

Things "righters" fail to understand.

But the SC will disappoint again and side with the righters on this one.

I'm just glad I live in a place where there is an average of one gun violence related incident per year, among 6 million people. We don't need guns to defend ourselves because there are no guns to defend ourselves from! Isn't that a better world?

Some people just love the Wild Wild West.

If the majority of the Supreme Court sees it that way, doesn't that make it just a few more people than "righters" who understand it that way. Perhaps maybe it means that even those darn "founders" understood it that way as well.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #32 of 128
Because the Supreme Court is as infallible as the pope. Except when it comes to Roe v Wade in which case the legitimacy of the Supreme Court is always called into question.

Shocking.

 

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post #33 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Because the Supreme Court is as infallible as the pope. Except when it comes to Roe v Wade in which case the legitimacy of the Supreme Court is always called into question.

Shocking.

Nice straw man. You keep making up points and then declare yourselves shocked that other people put them forward. Does it even get added to their imaginary track record that you can prosecute them for with reciprical bad actions later?

Please find where it was said the Supreme Court is infallible? I simply said (and now repeat) isn't it the view of more than the "righters" if they rule in favor of it. That says nothing about the correctness of the view at all. Simply that it is the view or more than one group.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #34 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Because the Supreme Court is as infallible as the pope. Except when it comes to Roe v Wade in which case the legitimacy of the Supreme Court is always called into question.

Shocking.

The Supreme Court isn't the source of authority for the right to bear arms. It's the Constitution. It's very explicit.

You won't see "the right to an abortion" in there, and that's THE source of contention, especially when the constitution specifically says that anything not in the constitution is left up to the states and the people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10th amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
post #35 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

The Supreme Court isn't the source of authority for the right to bear arms. It's the Constitution. It's very explicit.

You won't see "the right to an abortion" in there, and that's THE source of contention, especially when the constitution specifically says that anything not in the constitution is left up to the states and the people.


Exactly. It's amazing...here we have an explicitly stated right. Yet, some contend that it's not a right at all. On the other hand, we have a decision like Roe, which essentially saw the Supreme Court invent a right based on the implied (at best) notion of privacy. Somehow that right is incontrovertible though. Anyone who opposes it wants to "take the rights of women away."

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post #36 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It is a right and myself and my .177 caliber death machine are thankful for it.

However as for swaying, those that think that Constitution is more like a concept tend to modify the understanding of it in whatever fashion they desire.

Oh come on your a ping ping patriot! How are you going to stop a tyrannical government (aka Obama administration) with just that poxy little thing. You need to get serious, be a real patriot prepared every second of the day to defend liberty against healthcare reform. Arm yourself to the teeth with as many high powered assault rifles and grenade launchers as money can buy or your just a part of the problem instead of part of the final solution. And don't forget to buy an armoured supersize suv and put battering rams and a look out tower on it. I recommend at least one sniper rifle too, multiple shotguns and a nuclear fallout shelter.
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post #37 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Exactly. It's amazing...here we have an explicitly stated right. Yet, some contend that it's not a right at all. On the other hand, we have a decision like Roe, which essentially saw the Supreme Court invent a right based on the implied (at best) notion of privacy. Somehow that right is incontrovertible though. Anyone who opposes it wants to "take the rights of women away."


I'm not denying that owning a gun is a right. I'm calling into question to what extent it should be. You can't possibly claim that you aren't even allowed to reexamine the relevance of certain aspects of the Constitution, can you? That's why there's an Amendment process. That's why there's a Supreme Court to interpret how the Constitution is to be applied.

 

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-Sagan
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post #38 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The only thing that's around the corner is the possibility that a few idiots with guns will kill a few hundred people or so with their guns and then you won't have any more guns. The vast majority of people are not going to kill police officers.

People are killed by idiots all the time. That does not portend the end of individual gun ownership, much as it might pain someone to admit it.

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post #39 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

People are killed by idiots all the time. That does not portend the end of individual gun ownership, much as it might pain someone to admit it.

I'm not actually for banning guns. I actually think that it would be wrong to take guns away from American's when the country is full of them. I am for sensible gun laws though.

What I was trying to get across is that say during a quarantining event, there might be ten different lots of very well armed, like the people in OathKeepers, who go after the police rather than be quarantined. They're highly armed and trained and kill several hundred, maybe more, police. After something like that I can well imagine that guns, like the Bushmaster in the Mother Jones piece, would be banned. Indeed I can see the fallout being that there would be much stronger gun laws put into place generally.

It strikes me that it's just a matter of time before something on that scale takes place.
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post #40 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm not actually for banning guns. I actually think that it would be wrong to take guns away from American's when the country is full of them. I am for sensible gun laws though.

What I was trying to get across is that say during a quarantining event, there might be ten different lots of very well armed, like the people in OathKeepers, who go after the police rather than be quarantined. They're highly armed and trained and kill several hundred, maybe more, police. After something like that I can well imagine that guns, like the Bushmaster in the Mother Jones piece, would be banned. Indeed I can see the fallout being that there would be much stronger gun laws put into place generally.

It strikes me that it's just a matter of time before something on that scale takes place.

Again, anything is possible and neither of us knows of a future certain, but the scenario you just described sounds a bit like a scene from any of a number of recent zombie movies.

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