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Israel's 'new approach'

post #1 of 107
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/02/21/mideast/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/02/21/mideast/index.html</a>

Things are only going to get worse. It's only a matter of time until all out war and the taking away of gaza strip and west bank. After Israel puts the smack down on the Palestinians (there is no doubt they would obliterate the PA and all other organizations associated with the old Palestine) how would this affect relations in the middle east? Obviously worse but how much worse?
post #2 of 107
Are we really surprised? No, I didn't think so. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #3 of 107
Why should they sit by and get bombed by the PterroristA?

Or are we still pretending that Arafat is not a terrorist?
post #4 of 107
To all you out there who know how best to deal with the situation in Israel. Get a plane ticket, go to Israel, and fix the problem there. If your ideas are so good, do something about it. I am getting tired of hearing the whining about how they are going to destabilize the region. It is groups like PFLP and the PA that are responsible for most of the aggression agains Isreal. Israel is just making it a very un-profitable thing to attack them. "You attack us, we will retaliate in greater measure." With the history there, I would say that I cannot blame them, and all of my opinions mean just as much as yours from my comfy chair at home.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #5 of 107
You all know that the number of rocket attacks from the PA/Hammas/Hizbullah (sp?) has increased a great deal. Turns out that PA/Hammas/Hizbullah have gotten good at making "amateur" rockets that the launch into the cities.

Or did you think the Israelis were the only ones doing the attacks?
post #6 of 107
"JeBus Frikin ChristMas"....

Cant these people get along!?!?!?!?!

stay on your own dam side...!

I dont think these people would stop fighting if GOD himself came down...

this would be the perfect place to land a mile-wide comet... thats probably the only way they would stop fighting...

------------------------------------

© FERRO 2001-2002
post #7 of 107
Thread Starter 
It's mostly religious intolerance. It took christians hundreds of years to get along with jews, you'd think the muslims would have also.
post #8 of 107


PA/Hammas/Hizbullah
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post #9 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>It's mostly religious intolerance. It took christians hundreds of years to get along with jews, you'd think the muslims would have also.</strong><hr></blockquote>
yes and it's take also hundreds of years simply for that christians can get along togethers (catholics and protestant : and it's not finish in some area ...)
post #10 of 107
Poverty, Corrupt Goverments, Tyrants the Religous Nuts dont help the situation either...

------------------------------------

© FERRO 2001-2002
post #11 of 107
Thread Starter 
Word up to that.
post #12 of 107
Lest we forget, it wasn't a muslim who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. Fundamentalists on all sides are equally bad.
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post #13 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>

PA/Hammas/Hizbullah</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why? Not that I'm saying that you can't think that, but I just wonder what most people's rationale is for having a particular stance in this issue. I'm biased in my feelings and I'll openly admit that. How about someone explain to me the other side? (I'm being completely serious. I never hear the other side of this issue. Scott? Can you fill me in?)
post #14 of 107
I'm just 100% anti terrorist. Arafat is a terrorist. Ergo I am anti Arafat. I'm anti Hamas, Hizbullallahtoldmetokillthejewbecausewearethenewna zis.
post #15 of 107
Arafat is not a terrorist. He's a nobel peace prize for god's sake. He's not responsible for extremist groups.

The problem is we have a vicious cycle. Palestinans will throw stones, the Israel army will reply with F16s and assault tanks. Then it keeps on getting worse.

Hate has been breeding in the region for 50 years, there's very little that can be done. Calling Arafat a terrorist is certainly not the thing to do. Nor is keeping him under house lock .

If Sharon is so big and powerful and mature, why doesn't he realise sending colonies in palestinian territory is only going to make things worse?
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post #16 of 107
Uhh no. Arafat was a terrorist, is at best soft on terrorists, and most intelligent people understand that he operates with a kind of tacit co-operation with terrorists. He's slime. I wouldn't let him give me a cab ride, forget about negotiating a peace.
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post #17 of 107
Arafat was a terrorist in the past, several years ago with the OLP. Time have past and things where getting better (there were many fluctuations but i resume), and after the treaty of Oslo he receive the nobel prize with Rabin. Rabin was a great man of peace, but unfortunetaly the israelians extremist kill him. We don't know if he was still alive if the situation will be different, but his death was certainly not a good thing.

Arafat is not directly responsible of the terrorism, but he is indirectly. I think (dont ask me proofs, just my feelings) that the terrorism was a good way for him, to make pression under the Israelians governement, in order to obtain more. he is not himself a terrorist or their chief but he did nothing in past in order to stop them definitively. Terrorist groups where a sort of dogs, that Arafat should take in jail if he want to please Israel, or get out if he want to obtain something. Unfortunately the dogs rules their owns ways now, and aren't any more under Arafat's control.

Some israelians leaders also have a great responsabilities in that conflict, with the politic of colonies. In order to obtain more territories or more thing, the israelians governement built colonies inside the palestinian territories. Colonies are a bad things for the resolution of the conflict because :
- Israelians , quit the colonies and betray the people who use to live there (people who where encouraged to live there by their governements)
- Colonies stay there, but it's impossible to make a palestinian state that looks like Emmental's cheese (the cheese withs many holes you know). The constitution of a palestinian state imply the deplacement of many colonies.

So for me, there is two or three points who prevents the peace :

- terrorism : terrorism need nowhere and is not an excuse for any good goal. One of my favorite heroe is Gandhi , no violence but he obtain what he wanted to have, the indepandance of India.

- colonies : the politic of colonies was bad in my point of vue, you have to remove them in order to make a palestinian state, but it would betray the people who live there.

- Jerusalem : the holy city for the three majors religions of the world. Should stay to the jews ,but perhaps should have a special status for the mosque like the vatican has;

And to make peace you need two things :

- an israelian governements who want to make the peace

- and a palestinian who want to make the peace and have the power to do it (he must have the power to control his own state).


As a conclusion, i only see (some of many) problems and have no solutions to it
post #18 of 107
Thread Starter 
Palestinans will throw stones, the Israel army will reply with F16s and assault tanks.

I didn't know 'stones' was french for bullets. Interesting.
post #19 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>Arafat is not a terrorist. He's a nobel peace prize for god's sake. He's not responsible for extremist groups. </strong><hr></blockquote>

HOLY ****ING SHIT THAT'S THE FUNNIEST ****ING THING I EVER READ IN MY LIFE! ROTFLMAO! CRAP YOU ARE ****ING FUNNY!
post #20 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong> Palestinans will throw stones, the Israel army will reply with F16s and assault tanks.

I didn't know 'stones' was french for bullets. Interesting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No you have it wrong. "Stones" is French for "high quality explosives" and also "bomb children and launch rockets" as well as bomb bus full of people going to a wedding.

I think that French anti-Semitism is showing itself here.
post #21 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
I think that French anti-Semitism is showing itself here.<hr></blockquote>

Look who's throwing stones now.
post #22 of 107
[quote]I didn't know 'stones' was french for bullets. Interesting.<hr></blockquote>

[quote]No you have it wrong. "Stones" is French for "high quality explosives" and also "bomb children and launch rockets" as well as bomb bus full of people going to a wedding.

I think that French anti-Semitism is showing itself here.<hr></blockquote>

I'm sick and tired of the crap that goes on in here.

When I express an opinion, it is mine, not that of all french people. When will you guys understand that? Can there not be a single thread here that will not result in illegitimate french bashing?

I came in this thread with a fresh mind, wanting to leave the mutual bashing in the other thread behind me, maybe get some constructive discussion going.

But no, a single post and the only answers I get is it getting discredited because it's french.

Why?

What is it with the so-called french anti-semitism???? ScottH I seem to recall you posting in the other thread you never said France was xenophobic. Well you just did, so I guess we can discredit your authenticty.

I used to love this place for what it was. Recently though, it has become ridiculously idiotic and brain-less.

What did I say that made you feel so threatened as to attack me, of all persons, as a french citizen? Have you even seen my face? Have you? You wouldn't really call me the typical french guy if you had.

But alas, just like it's more convenient to blame Arafat for everything, it's easier to just discard any disturbing opinions as that of "toads". Is it not?

Arafat could be killed tomorrow, it wouldn't change a thing.

And when I talked about "stones", I was schematising the situation. I guess when somebody talks about an Intifadeh you just laugh your ass off because it means "War of Stones". Oh, but you quite probably didn't know the meaning of the word did you? I was just trying to show the disbalance btw the metods used by palestinians and Israelis.

All is was trying to say is that there are issues on both sides here, and that accusing either side is not going to resolve anything over-night, the hatred is much deeply-entrenched.

But since, mature, educated, adult people on these boards can not tolerate opinions other than theirs simply because they are that of a "Toad", I think it is best for me to just discard thoses posts, and find some other board, with more tolerant, level-headed people.

I wonder what the moderators are doing though.

I've been thoroughly disappointed by the behavior of some people on these boards. I'd like to congratulate you for making me feel like an unwelcome foreigner.

[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]</p>
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post #23 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>

Look who's throwing stones now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Truth hurts.

[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #24 of 107
Thread Starter 
Well my point was stones and bullets are TOTALLY different weapons. Throwing stones is rarely leathal but one bullet can be very easily. I doubt the palistinian militants are using stones as their main offense.
post #25 of 107
Didn't you hear? The French Ambassador to the UK is on the record with some very anti-semitic remarks at a party. When confronted it the your government backed him up and refused to recall him. Also the growing violence in your country toward the Jews that your police force likes to ignore. And the open hostility, lies and half truth you spread about Israel.
post #26 of 107
SYN

My advice is not to leave. Just ignore the comments made by some people. You know, those close minded guys who usually do nothing but insert little one line, non thought provoking posts, which seem pretty worthless at face value.

Ignore. That's what I try do. Of course, there is a button for that now. You'll see it when you click on a person's profile.

You'll just find more one liner guys at another board.

Unfortunately, it means I end up ignoring most of the topics started by 'those persons', and don't even bother reading their replies anymore, but you can't let them get to you.

It's weird. They ban Macintosh for talking to himself, but people can be insulting and get away with it, while driving away non insulting people in the process. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

I mean, it's ok to have an opinion and to disagree with other peoples opinions, but being a jerk is just being a jerk.

Oh, and for what its worth, I wouldn't trust Arafat any farther than he can swim - nobel prize or not. I think powerdoc discussed the complex layers of problems in that area quite well.

[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: seb ]</p>
post #27 of 107
so Scott, please explain why 200 palestinian children have been killed in the last year? there is terrorism on both sides here. And If you hate terrorism this much, please hate Sharon a bit as well, ok?
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post #28 of 107
Where'd you get that number from?
post #29 of 107
are you saying that is wrong? ok, if its right (and if I can prove it), will you admit that Sharon is just as much a terrorist as Arafat?
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post #30 of 107
Israel is becoming more and more comparable to Apartheid South Africa: Divided by race and the economy dependent on that division and the population kept away from the knowing the truth of the conditions of the Underclass.

Why should a jew from Ukraine who have never been in Israel have more rights in it than someone who have lived all his life in Israeli controlled territory and done nothing wrong? Why is it all right for Israel to knock down innocent peoples houses as retaliation for actions people unknown to them did? And please don´t give me that anti-semite card. Then you haven´t paid enough attention and read any of the responses I have made to you regarding Israel in other threads

To put it in perspective: Would it be okay if I could move to US and have more rights than atheist who have lived there all his life because I was a baptized christian? Would it be okay to knock down Hope for what wrongs Clinton did and what about ANC? Where they terrorists that should learn the lesson the hard way?
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post #31 of 107
seb : thanks, I gave some people here a little more credibility than they deserved, but now I know what to ignore... I wonder what happened to Macintosh though

ScottH will probably ignore the sources you will submit to him, because it's not what he saw on Fox News. Of course, the issue is quite simple, Arafat tells all those palestinians, who are all terrorists by the way, to go blow themselves up near Israelis, all this of course unprovoked by Sharon. And all French people are anti-semit because one idiot ambassador is. The world is so simple I wonder why people discuss those issues

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm</a>

this article, dating from november, talks about over 70 palestinian children dead at that point.
This is close to 20% of palestinian casualties being children. Notice I've linked to an article in english, as some here have trouble giving credibility to anything written in other languages.

Ariel Sharon is an idiot, even the Israeli press agrees on that. Arafat is not competent anymore to lead his people towards peace. Unfortunately, the only other leaders the palestinian people have got are not the ones fighting for peace.

The nationalisms of both people involved are way to exacerbated to allow peaceful coexistence. Israel has to realize the palestinians deserve their own country. The palestinians need to understand Jerusalem will never be theirs. Unfortunately both people are unwilling to make any sacrifices.

It is easy to discard the actions of palestinians as simple and blind "terrorism" when one refuses to acknowledge the fact that the same palestinians that blow themselves up in public places also saw the loss of a loved one to the Israeli army.

I'm not defending the actions though, because that simplistic conclusion is quite certain to be reached, just like my anti-semitism...

Both sides have valid requests, both sides are oppressed; unfortunately both sides are employing the wrong methods to get what they want.

And to clarify my stance on Arafat, yes he was a terrorist, he's not 100% clean now either, but he certainly isn't responsible for all the wrongs of extremists.
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post #32 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>are you saying that is wrong? ok, if its right (and if I can prove it), will you admit that Sharon is just as much a terrorist as Arafat?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If it's right and you can prove it it still doesn't mean Sharon is a terrorist. Did Israel attack a bus full of Palistinians going to a wedding or a mall full of teenagers?

There is no moral equivalence.
post #33 of 107
Thread Starter 
The problem is there is no easy solution. Palestine existed since the late 1800's till the middle of this past century. Depending which way you look at it, Jews controlled Israel 1500 years before Christ and lived there quite a few years after 70AD. And they were given by Britain a jewish state in the late 40's. Now, it's 2002. Who has more right? Personally I think the jews but what do I know? It's hard to quantify and there will never be a peaceful resolution if it's left to them. Either some super-power will have to be involved, or the fighting will last forever or until they anihillate each other. I think the main issue is that muslims don't want to live next to jews. At all. On the same planet. In the same galaxy.
post #34 of 107
I think it was wrong what we did in 1948. It was clearly bad conscience in Europe from WWII that resulted in Israel (and a great deal of terrorism from Jews under the british administration performed by terrorists who today is heroes in Israel) and wrong that other people should suffer from it.

But today is today. Several generations have grown up in Israel so today Israel is a fact. So the only solution is both Israel and a palestinian state. And for those who say its impossible to find a solution just think of South Africa. A peaceful solution was more out of the question 20 years ago than a ditto is in middle east today
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post #35 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>seb : thanks, I gave some people here a little more credibility than they deserved, but now I know what to ignore... I wonder what happened to Macintosh though

ScottH will probably ignore the sources you will submit to him, because it's not what he saw on Fox News....

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Dear brainwashed AI member. That is a one sided story. We don't know who killed that kid under what circumstances. He could have been killed by his own people or caught in the cross fire or either side. The story doesn't say or even ask the question. It's bias. Bad reporting. It's a story that's not intended to report news but rather illicit sympathy for one side over the other.
post #36 of 107
Concerning the above remarks about some superpowers intervention being the only way to solve the israel/palestine conflict:

And what superpower would that realistically be? There is only one left you know, and its hardly going to intervene at this moment. Not with the present leadership focused on terrorist fighting as its primary objective.. oh, I forgot, they allready intervene with several billion dollars every year in subsidies to the Israelis <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(

First of all i don't recall his remarks being especially antisemitic as much as being anti-current-israeli-politics. Theres a difference. Second, lots of jews disagree with Ariel Sharons politics, and that doesn't make them antisemits.
But there you go again, talk the least negative about ISRAELI politics and you can be sure to find someone accusing you of being antisemitic..A sure (and stupid) way to strangle any balanced discussion.
post #37 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Token:
<strong>and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(</strong><hr></blockquote>

Anti-semitism should make us all sick.


You do realize that the French government did nothing about it right?
post #38 of 107
[quote]Dear brainwashed AI member. That is a one sided story. We don't know who killed that kid under what circumstances. He could have been killed by his own people or caught in the cross fire or either side. The story doesn't say or even ask the question. It's bias. Bad reporting. It's a story that's not intended to report news but rather illicit sympathy for one side over the other.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<hr></blockquote>



I guess palestinians spend their time killing their own children...

Surely I am the one being brain-washed.
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post #39 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>



I guess palestinians spend their time killing their own children...

Surely I am the one being brain-washed.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It has happened. One case was a woman who claimed her baby was killed by the "Jews". Turns out she killed her own baby and blamed it on the "jews". I bet that didn't make it on the BBC site.
post #40 of 107
I would really like to see that story. Do you have a link? I can´t imagine anyone killing their own child for the sole purpose of blaming Israel.
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