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Israel's 'new approach' - Page 3

post #81 of 107
New: So thats what Scott mean: That Isreal have freedom of speech for the Israelis but not the palestinians.
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post #82 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

Umm, where in his statement did he say that exactly? Nowhere.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh. We may have a breakthrough. Stupid me thought that Scott wasn´t against the treatment of the palestinians. I must have missed the post where he say otherwise.

Please. Does he have to say all his opinions in same post for me to refer to them?
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post #83 of 107
my point?

[quote] NoahJ: Go over there and live with that day in and day out and tell me you think they are overreacting. <hr></blockquote>

I replyed to your statement, MANY ISRAELIS WHO LIVE THERE THINK THE IDF AND SHARON IS OVERREACTING...

d o - y o u - g e t - m y - p o i n t ?!?
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post #84 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>my point?

I replyed to your statement, MANY ISRAELIS WHO LIVE THERE THINK THE IDF AND SHARON IS OVERREACTING...

d o - y o u - g e t - m y - p o i n t ?!?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

You still do not live there yourself. So your opinion if it is an overreactions is just as good as mine. Any country has the opinionated folks that will disagree with a policy that their leaders put into place. The US is definately one of them as evidenced by those who think we should have taken our medicine when the WTC was destroyed. Then thought it was an overreaction to bomb Afghanistan. Your point is weak at best. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #85 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Oh. We may have a breakthrough. Stupid me thought that Scott wasn´t against the treatment of the palestinians. I must have missed the post where he say otherwise.

Please. Does he have to say all his opinions in same post for me to refer to them?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now you are asking to me to concede the point that Israel is the oppresive government keeping those poor Palestinians down. That strawman will not stand here. Sorry.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #86 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

Now you are asking to me to concede the point that Israel is the oppresive government keeping those poor Palestinians down. That strawman will not stand here. Sorry.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No I don´t want you to admit anything. Thats the point: Israel is opressing Palestinians and some of you don´t want to face that.
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post #87 of 107
NoahJ: How can my point be any weaker than yours, when none of us live there, and all I did was tell you that many israelis don't agree with you...

your point about living there is absolutly nonsens. I have both jewish friends and family and palestinian friends who live in the mideast, who have lived there and/or follow the conflict daily. don't tell me that I have no right to care about the ongoing tragedy in the mideast.

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post #88 of 107
Thread Starter 
Lets say for sake of arguement that Israel is oppressing the palistinians. What should they do about it? Offer them their own state? Make the Israeli citezens? Move out of Israel? Where would they go? Is your country willing to reintegrate them into your nation? I think the point is it's a very complicated issue. One resolution will piss off an entire nation while another will piss off the other nation. It's lose lose.
post #89 of 107
That could actually be interesting to know about those arguing here: What are your personal ties to the Middle East?
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post #90 of 107
Thread Starter 
None. I'm a portuguese-american born here in the USA among many other cultures and races.
post #91 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>NoahJ: How can my point be any weaker than yours, when none of us live there, and all I did was tell you that many israelis don't agree with you...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Reread my post, then pay attention to the line "You still do not live there yourself. So your opinion if it is an overreaction is just as good as mine."

[quote]<strong>your point about living there is absolutly nonsens. I have both jewish friends and family and palestinian friends who live in the mideast, who have lived there and/or follow the conflict daily. don't tell me that I have no right to care about the ongoing tragedy in the mideast.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. I never said you could not care. I am trying to point out that your opinion is not any better than any others here. No more valid nor any more important. I am also trying to make the point that I would give a lot more weight to your opinion if you lived there. Why? Because you live there and actually have a stake in what is going on. I have friends that live all over the world. Do I feel bad when bad things happen? Sure. Does it make my opinion about their country or political situation more valid because I know them? No.

Oh, and as far as the picture, aimed right at the US by someone who obviously follow US politics. If I make a big sign, take a picture of it and make sure that it closely follows whatever nations political scene does that make my position more valid?

[EDIT] Expanded my disagreement to let you know why I disagree, and what with.[/EDIT]

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #92 of 107
Well, at the moment I the sudden peace plan put forward by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, has given the gloomy situation a bit of hope

the main points of the plan is:

Full Israeli withdrawal from West Bank, Gaza Strip and part of Jerusalem
Israeli sovereignty over Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem's Old City
Arab recognition of Israel

more info
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1842000/1842330.stm" target="_blank">Here!</a>

also the <a href="http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/pal/mitchell1.htm" target="_blank">Mitchell Report</a> is worth reading...
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post #93 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Lets say for sake of arguement that Israel is oppressing the palistinians. What should they do about it? Offer them their own state? Make the Israeli citezens? Move out of Israel? Where would they go? Is your country willing to reintegrate them into your nation? I think the point is it's a very complicated issue. One resolution will piss off an entire nation while another will piss off the other nation. It's lose lose.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My country is accepting them as refugees and thats what they are.

Israel is occupying their land and putting huge restrictions on what they can do. Israel have the responsibility for their education, health care aso just like for their own citizents. But nontheless its of much poorer standart. Many Palestinians work in Israel and the whole economy of the occupied land is dependent on this because due to restrictions from Israel (import/export) they can´t keep up their own economy. Whenever something happens (suicide bombs etc.) ALL palestinians are prohibited to go to their work in Israel thus ruining both the economy of the families and the community.

Israel is dependent on the cheap work force to do much manual work. Its a huge work reserve and thus the employers can pressure their salary to well below Israel standard. When the boarders close the Israel suffers economically too but of course not as much as those who can´t affort food. If the palestinians got their own state with its own economy Israel would suffer economically.

And yes its Israel not Apartheid South Africa
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post #94 of 107
The photo is actually of a banner hung on the outside President Arafat's compound in Ramallah. If aimed at anyone, its aimed at both Arafat and Sharon...

Anyway, its a cool photo.

Its better to make answers someones arguments, then to attack their right to make them, agreed?

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post #95 of 107
Talking about South Africa. Consider the following statements:

From South Africa: "Senior [South African] police officers have complained recently that their efforts to deal with unrest are hampered by the rioters' tactics, including the use of women and children as "human shields," the absence of suspected leaders from the front lines of most protests and the increased attacks on police, particularly the township homes of black policemen"
(Los Angeles Times, June 3, 1985).

From Israel: "It's tragic to have a child fall in this violence, but there's no reason for the IDF to fire one shot if there's no violence...All we're trying to say is stop this incessant incitement to violence. We are dealing with a situation in which kids are cynically being used by being put on the front lines where they may be killed, maimed or injured...If a young boy falls, it gives the Palestinians a lot of propaganda points."
--Capt. Natan Golan, IDF Spokesman, quoted in the St. Petersburg Times, October 18, 2000.
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post #96 of 107
Thread Starter 
Well anders, I'll confess i don't have the faintest idea on how to fix the problem over there in Israel. If I did, I'd be getting the Nobel Prize next year. Maybe we can make some colonies on the Moon and move all of florida there and give palestinians Florida! Hey, I didn't say it was a perfect solution... but it's a solution.
post #97 of 107
Well Crown Prince Abdullahs plan seems like the right thing at the right time (see News post). Rumours had it that Bush didn´t like it but according to BBC he is accepting it too now. The Arabic countries recognition of Israel can be the joker that puts pressure on both Arafat and Israel. Perhaps the Arab countries, EU and US (IF they can keep special interests apart) could discuss it and lay it in front of Israel and the Palestinians as "take-it-or-leave-it" to optimise the pressure.
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post #98 of 107
[quote] And for those of you who say rocks are less likley to kill than guns. Your point? A rock can be, and has been used as, a murder weapon. People were killed by stoning in the middle east for a long time. If you don't want to get shot at, don't throw stones at the people with the guns. It is really easy. Do yout hink the guys with the guns should put them down and throw rocks back? <hr></blockquote>
ummm...
post #99 of 107
That does it That terrorist. What if he hit one of the machine guns on that tank. Destroying valuable strategic infrastructure that most likely was paid by US. Thats an article five situation if there ever was one. I will call my prime minister immediately.

Okay it nightynight for me.
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post #100 of 107
Ask David how well a rock can work.
post #101 of 107
Thread Starter 
What's the idiot doing in front of the tank anyway? It's not an ice cream truck.
post #102 of 107
Saying F* you to a tank in his back yard.
post #103 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>It's not an ice cream truck.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually it is. To be able to deliver Ice cream for the young ones palestinian salesmen have to use armored cars. If not they lose their life when the israeli soldiers shoot at them. The boy is throwing money to the car and they will throw his ice to him. This way he won´t be shot on the assumption that he conspired against Israel. To reduce his chance of being shot to below 20% it all have to be done in less than five seconds which is the time it takes an Israeli soldier to load and shoot.

Just warming u for that 666th post
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post #104 of 107
Thread Starter 
Now that pic makes sense!
post #105 of 107
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Actually it is. To be able to deliver Ice cream for the young ones palestinian salesmen have to use armored cars. If not they lose their life when the israeli soldiers shoot at them. The boy is throwing money to the car and they will throw his ice to him. This way he won´t be shot on the assumption that he conspired against Israel. To reduce his chance of being shot to below 20% it all have to be done in less than five seconds which is the time it takes an Israeli soldier to load and shoot.

Just warming u for that 666th post</strong><hr></blockquote>


You got it wrong. It's an Israeli school bus. The best/only way to protect the kids. The ones that go to school and don't stand the street throwing rocks at tanks.
post #106 of 107
Uh, yeah. And the tank driver is shooting at the kid too as he is frightened for his life.

The IDF would not shoot here obviously. There are usually only shots fired when there are multiple rock throwers because to be pelted with one rock is bad enough, but to be pelted with many rocks from many directions can be fatal.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #107 of 107
Hey, that is David!
And that thing in the back; isn't there a tank named Goliat?

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- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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