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Apple sues HTC for alleged infringement of 20 iPhone patents - Page 6

post #201 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

When you can't compete you sue!

First Nokia and now Apple. No respect for Apple on this move. Compete on the market instead of the courtroom!

The counter-suit is going to get interesting too, when it comes, given that HTC has been making phones for a lot longer and probably has tons of its own patents that it can sue for. Why can't they just stick to making phones? Or is Jobs out of ideas for iPhone 4.0?

By that reasoning no one should ever seek legal redress for having their innovations copied. They should just "compete in the market" against, well, effectively themselves, since anyone should be free to do wholesale cloning of whatever seems to be popular.
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post #202 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Well, it's pretty much no different than the other devices quadra said were emulating the iphone. It's got a touch screen and a button that brings you to the home screen. Big whoop. That's exactly my point though. People will point to devices like this and say they only exist because of the iphone, which is bs obviously since it was released before the first iphone was.

This is where the the totality is not always the same as the sum of the parts. This is were derivative inventions and creations come in. For example, this is much used in designer cloths, like Blue Jeans. First "created" made famous by Levis jeans -- even if "pants" as a clothing have been with us for centuries.

Did you know for example that many designer jeans manufacturer can file trademark for even the most simple design -- shape of the back and front packets, for example, or how many stiches were used, etc. They seem almost frivolous or ridiculous but trademark laws do protect such derivative creations.

Similar stuff exist in patents that lead to derivative inventions or discoveries.

CGC
post #203 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

I thought it was dumb when people said Nokia sued because they were scared, and it's just as dumb now when it's the other way around.

If you plan to win a lawsuit, you research the hell out of it before you even sue. There's no prize for suing quickly. You research the potentially infringing products; you tear them apart, run them through all sorts of tests to see what was actually implemented. When there's lots of potential infringement, you research legal precedents and case history to find the best courses of action, so you can pick the very best items to contest. This takes time.

In the case of Nokia, there was the additional step of negotiating with Apple over licenses, so from start to suit, it took 2.5 years since Nokia could get their hands on an iPhone. Why does anyone think that the 1.5 years since the Dream/G1 came out is that long?

Exactly. Pretty much every post on this forum that references some kind of recent (usually emotional), reason for Apple suing HTC can be completely ignored. It's a juvenile assessment that requires we believe that Apple or possibly Steve Jobs, "got mad" and woke up one morning ready to sue.
post #204 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Good post. Beat me to it. But I think the first sentence of the last paragraph is only true about trademarks, and not patents. As the rest of your paragraph points out, only the trademark aspirin was lost; the patent on the aspirin product itself was not. Patents, I believe, last 17 years. Trademarks, I believe, are forever (or as long as you defend it).

If you are trained/degreed as an engineer and you want to make lots of money but aren't really that interested in building insanely, great products and don't mind doing tedious research and arguing about minute details, the best thing to do is go to law school and become a patent engineer.

I had the same notion actually, until I had the privilege to be a member of a University committee that monitors drug testing done in universities. Indeed any patent has a shelf-life. However, what I found was that if a drug was first tested usually among healthy adults; the company may try later on to test it specifically for children or older people. Then, they may try to use the same product for other diseases (or circumvent the law by letting physicians to "try" using the product for other diseases). Companies do these new trials for other specific groups or diseases, especially if the "manufacture" or prior use is near expiration. Other stuff right now that are explored are modes of deliveries -- slow release capsules, packaging (e.g., coating of the medicine) that affect absorption, etc.

If there is promising new use, and there is a lucrative market, then they conduct a more large scale trial to get "new use" for the same drug. The prior use might have expired (becomes generic), but then the "new uses" or technologies of deliveries can be patented, again. The derivative clinical trials can be costly but almost usually not as costly as the "original use" discovery and original clinical trials costs.

Pharmaceutical companies make so many claims of high cost. Sometimes it is true, but many major drugs were discoveries arose from federally funded research. All the initial HIV/AIDS drugs for example were based on work by many cancer researchers and institutions. Even many of the early trials were funded by NIH. However, the government does not patent its inventions or discoveries. So, the drug companies who first manufactured the 'tablets" for the HIV/AIDS drugs made enormously filthy profits.

Then universities wised up, after some changes in the laws. Now they tend to patent everything and collaborate with pharmaceutical companies to try them. On the whole it seems good, but there are bad ramifications also -- too complex to discuss here.

I was not sure exactly about "trademark" because not too many companies stay on top forever, and soon they become extinct. For example, I am not sure if Coke had a trademark at some point for "Cola", apart from "Coca cola". The term "cola" is used by a number of beverages.

CGC
post #205 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorBenway View Post

Not seeing a single geek argument on the whole of the internet IS incredible. If he's incapable of seeing it - he's fucking magical. I'm still waiting for my unicorn.

Someone earlier cited NeXTstep and object oriented programing - in which I say - good point. It also so happens NeXT computers - like most - have things called batteries. They provide power to things called onboard clocks. These batteries can eventually die and the clocks reset their dates - like mine did. Computers are magical devices that can display words like "unicorn".

And now - David Blaine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxu_MQSTTY

And By-the-fuck-way, didn't everyone get the memo from Apple.com's homepage? Magical is now a documented feature.

That made even less sense.... How old are you?
post #206 of 279
If you have a patent or a trademark, and you do not defend that from continued infringement, you could lose your legal right to such patent or trademark,

Just a side note:

Do not lose the debate by using loose arguments. It is a great loss and a lost crusade if we rely too much on loose arguments to be the foundation of the discourse here.

CGC
post #207 of 279
If you can't compete, then sue. God I love Apple.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

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post #208 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202 View Post


Just a side note:

Do not lose the debate by using loose arguments. It is a great loss and a lost crusade if we rely too much on loose arguments to be the foundation of the discourse here.

CGC

I love the side note. I think most people in America (or at least those on the Internet) have forgotten the difference between lose and loose. It's just so embarrassing.
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post #209 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Are you trying to say the mouse was invented by Apple? Are you serious? The mouse was invented in 1963 by Douglas Engelbart.

Apple also did not invent the Apps Store. While they made iTunes, music libraries has already been around for some time.


For something to be a "game changer" the best you are going to get is the iPod that was a true game changer. The iPhone is a great product but even that isn't a game changer.

Every company sees dark times and some never make it out of those dark times. Apple has had its share of dark times and right now they are doing very well. Its not like they can never see dark times again. Also the iPad isn't even on sale for all we know it could be the next Apple TV, Mac Mini, Apple II or G4 Cube.

Also you mentioned OSX how about we talk about Apple operating systems before OSX they didn't exactly burn up the tech industry in fact most of them outright sucked.

You can't help but live up to the "Extreme" in your name. Your definition of game changer moves around all over the place. You suggest it means "invent" when it suits (mouse) and "popularizes" when it suits (iPod). The widely accepted definition of game changer is typically something that significantly moves the market in itself - ie popularizes something, brings it to a mass market, causes others to copy it etc. It doesn't have to drive market dominance but often does for at least some time (Most examples below have driven years of market share leadership - Apple II, Mac, IBM PC, Laser Printer, PalmPilot etc.)

Under these terms, gamechangers are arguably: (note - not invented)
Home computer - Apple II
GUI OS/Mouse - Mac
POrtable music - Sony (walkman/discman)
Desktop publishing - Apple/Aldus/Adobe (in a package - Mac/PageMaker/Postscript)
Stylus-based Touch - came from Apple, but Palm is the gamechanger
IBM standard PC - IBM
IBM clone - Compaq
Laser Printer - HP
Inkjet Printer - ?? - HP or Epson?
MP3 player - Apple
Multitouch phone/touch OS - Apple
Unix desktop OS - Apple (Linux has never been mass market - only netbooks have driven non-geek adoption)
Tablet computing - Apple?? TBC

Apple has a pretty good hit rate, unprecedented in many ways.
- One could even look at some of the "failures" and note that they moved the game along a bit - Cube - fashion computer styling/small form factors (see Mini/Nettops etc.), Apple TV - too early to tell until the content channels work themselves out.

Apple has changed more games than anyone in the personal computing/gadget space - just a fact. Doesn't mean they achieved or kept Market Leadership but even in the old days, Apple II and Mac had huge market shares for a few years before the market caught up/overtook.
post #210 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

If you can't compete, then sue. God I love Apple.

So Apple sued Psystar because it couldn't compete. Yeah, right.

And Apple just sued Media Solution Holdings because it couldn't compete. Yeah, right.

And Apple sued Burst.com because it couldn't compete. Yeah, right.

And Apple sued Apple Corps because it couldn't compete. Yeah, right.

And Apple put together all the material in this lawsuit since Jobs saw data in January that showed Apple was having trouble competing. Yeah, right.
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post #211 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

. . .

One word: multitasking.

Apple couldn't implement it worth a damn, and they are suffering. So they sue.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #212 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

One word: multitasking.

Apple couldn't implement it worth a damn, and they are suffering. So they sue.

One word: copy-and-paste

Apple couldn't implement it worth a damn, and they were suffering. So they sued, right?
post #213 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

One word: multitasking.

Apple couldn't implement it worth a damn, and they are suffering. So they sue.

Yeah, sure it is.

Let me guess, you were one of those people busting Apple's nut about the copy and paste "tragedy".
post #214 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Apple couldn't implement it worth a damn, and they are suffering. So they sue.

75 Million iPhone OS X devices as of the end of 2009 says differently.
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post #215 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

One word: multitasking.

Apple couldn't implement it worth a damn, and they are suffering. So they sue.

Palm implemented multitasking in a way that's actually friendlier and visually nicer than Android. Though it may be less battery efficient, I don't know, as nobody cares enough to actually do a quality comparison.

As of today, Apple hasn't sued.
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post #216 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous guy View Post

Again: "Google's don't be evil mantra? It's bullshit! They're trying to kill us!" - Steve Jobs on the Google phone platform.

Again, this is a paraphrase attributed to a single anonymous source. Moreover, even that source doesn't link those two phrases together into one thought like that, and as far as I know the latter bit is more commonly rendered as something like "the Android team wants to kill the iPhone", which is the kind of thing you say when you want to fire up the troops.

Still not seeing where any of this implies "fear."
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post #217 of 279
[/QUOTE]Just a side note:

Do not lose the debate by using loose arguments. It is a great loss and a lost crusade if we rely too much on loose arguments to be the foundation of the discourse here.

CGC[/QUOTE]

While we're at it..

There must be an easier way to convince them that their use of lose and loose is incorrect but they're not getting it.
post #218 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

One word: multitasking.

Apple couldn't implement it worth a damn, and they are suffering. So they sue.

So you've decided to stop even pretending to make sense and just give yourself over to pure, unadulterated trolling? Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
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post #219 of 279
patent 5,929,852 looks to me to be a little bogus, it seems like they patented the <a href> tag, representations of a network resource using a URL? really?
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post #220 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

So you've decided to stop even pretending to make sense and just give yourself over to pure, unadulterated trolling? Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

I didn't mention better voice call quality because of the dual-microphone. Or the higher resolution screen. Or the option to have a physical keyboard in addition to a software keyboard. Or the upgradable memory. Or the faster processor. etc, etc.

Admit it, the iPhone has fallen behind. Apple's refresh cycle is far too slow to compete with the several other phone makers, so it sues to stop it.

That's the situation. You can disagree and continue in your ignorance for all I care.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #221 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

I find it amusing you think everyone in here is idiots and couldn't possibly understand corporations.
....

I think he is spot on. And, idiots is your characterization.
Blindness is a condition as well as a state of mind.

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post #222 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrnight View Post

THIS is just retarded on Apples part.

Why? Because they defend their own patents? If they did not defend them, they would pretty much have to give them up.
Quote:
Come on guys, without competition, what would we have?

So competition is stealing other people's ideas and using them for free in your own product?
post #223 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post


That's the situation. You can disagree and continue in your ignorance for all I care.

As long as you say it then it must be true.
post #224 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill View Post

As long as you say it then it must be true.

So, the iPhone has a larger screen size and higher screen resolution than competing phones...?
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #225 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

If you can't compete, then sue. God I love Apple.

Yeah. Apple can't compete. [/sarcasm.]

Go troll somewhere else with your foolishness.
post #226 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous guy View Post

Again: "Google's don't be evil mantra? It's bullshit! They're trying to kill us!" - Steve Jobs on the Google phone platform.

That's the second time you've posted that attribution to affirm that Jobs is "scared shitless." Absent tone, context, emotion, and knowledge of Job's fuller sense of it, isn't that possibly reading more into the words than is available to us ... i.e., a subjective interpretation?
Blindness is a condition as well as a state of mind.

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post #227 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

I love the side note. I think most people in America (or at least those on the Internet) have forgotten the difference between lose and loose. It's just so embarrassing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post

Quote:
Just a side note:

Do not lose the debate by using loose arguments. It is a great loss and a lost crusade if we rely too much on loose arguments to be the foundation of the discourse here.

CGC

While we're at it..

There must be an easier way to convince them that their use of lose and loose is incorrect but they're not getting it.

I thought it was a way to lighten and deflect such a heated debate.

The essence of civil discourse is lost when people confuse their perception of right and wrong to be synonymous with what is true and false.

With this incorrect foundation in a forum, the principals consider it a matter of principle to defend their point of view. Every topic becomes a lightning bolt thrown at the adversary. Each topic becomes a crusade to ensure that anyone who believes or thinks otherwise must be vilified .

Alas, whether in the internet or real life, there seems to be no more room for a meeting of minds nor any thought to strive and understand the facts. I wonder sometimes why we even bother to exchange views in forums.


CGC
post #228 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post


There must be an easier way to convince them that their use of lose and loose is incorrect but they're not getting it.

True story: My fifth grader came home with a homework assignment just like this one!

And, yet, there are folks posting here ..... oh well..... \
post #229 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

I didn't mention better voice call quality because of the dual-microphone. Or the higher resolution screen. Or the option to have a physical keyboard in addition to a software keyboard. Or the upgradable memory. Or the faster processor. etc, etc.

Admit it, the iPhone has fallen behind. Apple's refresh cycle is far too slow to compete with the several other phone makers, so it sues to stop it.

That's the situation. You can disagree and continue in your ignorance for all I care.


Gosh. Drop in hardware parts to hit spec numbers. No way Apple could compete with that. That must be why iPhone sales are going nowhere.
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post #230 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

So, the iPhone has a larger screen size and higher screen resolution than competing phones...?

You think Apple didn't have the ability to put a larger screen and higher screen resolution on the iPhone 3GS? If so, why didn't they? Were the display suppliers prejudiced against Apple? Was Apple too stupid to look for larger screens and screens with higher resolutions? What exactly stopped Apple from adding it but allowed its competitors to do so?

Clearly, Apple chose not to increase the size of the screen and not to increase the resolution and not to use OLED (you left that one out!) because in Apple's view, they simply aren't as important to smartphone consumers as other things are. The screen size is large enough for a device that needs to be pocketable. The resolution is high enough for a device that's held a foot or less from your eyes. System responsiveness, touch accuracy, UI layout and navigation (see Edward Tufte), among other things, are more important.
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post #231 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Admit it, the iPhone has fallen behind. Apple's refresh cycle is far too slow to compete with the several other phone makers, so it sues to stop it.

That's the situation. You can disagree and continue in your ignorance for all I care.

If the problem is the refresh cycle, wouldn't it make more sense to increase the refresh cycle? (Have you heard of Occam's razor?) After all, it might take a year for the ITC to act (and injunctions are rarely granted these days according to the NYTimes), and more than 5 years to work through the Delaware courts (including appeals).

Apple has $40B in the bank; it could hire a few more workers and pay a few more factories to crank out a model in Oct and another in Feb. They'd love the business. iPhone has the largest profit margins by far (estimated 58% to second place RIM's estimated 42%, next highest is in the low 30s); it could afford to even sell iPhones cheaper to the carriers or consumers. All these options would likely even be cheaper than suing, and seemingly help Apple to selll many more iPhones.

Won't you even entertain the slightest possibility that you are wrong?
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post #232 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Gosh. Drop in hardware parts to hit spec numbers. No way Apple could compete with that. That must be why iPhone sales are going nowhere.

Peter Misek of Canaccord Adams must be wrong then; he just increased his iPhone estimate from 7.2m to 7.9m units for the quarter. That's a 108% increase year-over-year.

But alas, Apple is falling behind. g3pro says so. And everyone else is ignorant.
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post #233 of 279
People also forget that Apple could get hauled into court by the Feds for possible patent portfolio abuse.

It's not as crazy as it sounds. If you have taken a first-year college course in economics, you may remember the famous US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases, where the courts determined that United Shoe abused its portfolio on shoemaking machine patents to deliberately shut out competitors. Apple is now approaching the point that they could get sued by the Feds for deliberately using its iPhone patents to shut out any up-and-coming competitor with a touchscreen "smart" cellphone like HTC and eventually Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson, and NOKIA. That's something the Feds view very dimly on, and the even more aggressive EU antitrust authorities may take interest, too.
post #234 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Peter Misek of Canaccord Adams must be wrong then; he just increased his iPhone estimate from 7.2m to 7.9m units for the quarter. That's a 108% increase year-over-year.

But alas, Apple is falling behind. g3pro says so. And everyone else is ignorant.

But, but, but....... specs! That's what consumers want! They go to buy a phone and demand to know what processor it has and how much memory and what screen resolution! Because they know the phone with the highest numbers wins!

Poor Apple. Obliged to randomly sue people because they just can't figure out how to purchase those parts.
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post #235 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

People also forget that Apple could get hauled into court by the Feds for possible patent portfolio abuse.

It's not as crazy as it sounds. If you have taken a first-year college course in economics, you may remember the famous US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases, where the courts determined that United Shoe abused its portfolio on shoemaking machine patents to deliberately shut out competitors. Apple is now approaching the point that they could get sued by the Feds for deliberately using its iPhone patents to shut out any up-and-coming competitor with a touchscreen "smart" cellphone like HTC and eventually Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson, and NOKIA. That's something the Feds view very dimly on, and the even more aggressive EU antitrust authorities may take interest, too.

"Apple is now approaching the point"? What possible metric could you be applying? Like, you can only bring a certain number of infringement suits before you're declared a patent portfolio abuser, regardless of the merits?
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post #236 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

People also forget that Apple could get hauled into court by the Feds for possible patent portfolio abuse.

It's not as crazy as it sounds. If you have taken a first-year college course in economics, you may remember the famous US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases, where the courts determined that United Shoe abused its portfolio on shoemaking machine patents to deliberately shut out competitors. Apple is now approaching the point that they could get sued by the Feds for deliberately using its iPhone patents to shut out any up-and-coming competitor with a touchscreen "smart" cellphone like HTC and eventually Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson, and NOKIA. That's something the Feds view very dimly on, and the even more aggressive EU antitrust authorities may take interest, too.

Worth a good chuckle before I go to bed...

One countersuit and one suit, and that's "approaching the point"?
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post #237 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

"Apple is now approaching the point"? What possible metric could you be applying? Like, you can only bring a certain number of infringement suits before you're declared a patent portfolio abuser, regardless of the merits?

I'd suggest you look up the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases. That was a classic case where United Shoe held a number of critical patents on shoemaking machinery, and they used to patents to effectively shut out competition. Apple's marketshare on "smart" cellphones has reached the point that suits like what they're trying to do against HTC could be construed as violating antitrust laws because Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones.
post #238 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

I'd suggest you look up the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases. That was a classic case where United Shoe held a number of critical patents on shoemaking machinery, and they used to patents to effectively shut out competition. Apple's marketshare on "smart" cellphones has reached the point that suits like what they're trying to do against HTC could be construed as violating antitrust laws because Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones.

Except "critical patents on shoemaking machinery" doesn't sound much like "patents on specific implementations of specific smartphone techniques that can achieved by other means with no loss of fucntionality."

It's odd to think that the iPhone has so totally transformed the smartphone market that it's assumed that if you can't make a phone that looks and performs substantially like the iPhone you're somehow being constrained from participating in the smartphone market at all.

And last time I looked Apple had around a 20% global smartphone share, which I'm having a hard time seeing as the kind of dominance that would trigger antitrust investigations.

At any rate, to say that "Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones" based on what has been reported is simply scurrilous speculation; you could just as easily say "Apple wants to protect its intellectual property."
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post #239 of 279
death to the patents!
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post #240 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Anyone else noticed the attacks on Android that are springing up?

A week or so a go we had a pure FUD hatchet job attempted on the Nexus One, erroneously claiming it only had a 16 bit display. I wonder who paid for that bit of 'research'?

You mean the 'FUD' by a well respected company with a firm grounding and understanding in display calibration technology. Yeah, cos they don't know a damned thing when it comes to displays...oh wait!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Now we have a full frontal attack on the manufacturer of the Nexus One who also are producing Android phones.

It's an attack on HTC, the manufacturer of Android AND Windows Mobile devices.
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