Apple sues HTC for alleged infringement of 20 iPhone patents - Page 7

I'd suggest you look up the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases. That was a classic case where United Shoe held a number of critical patents on shoemaking machinery, and they used to patents to effectively shut out competition. Apple's marketshare on "smart" cellphones has reached the point that suits like what they're trying to do against HTC could be construed as violating antitrust laws because Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones.

Except "critical patents on shoemaking machinery" doesn't sound much like "patents on specific implementations of specific smartphone techniques that can achieved by other means with no loss of fucntionality."

It's odd to think that the iPhone has so totally transformed the smartphone market that it's assumed that if you can't make a phone that looks and performs substantially like the iPhone you're somehow being constrained from participating in the smartphone market at all.

And last time I looked Apple had around a 20% global smartphone share, which I'm having a hard time seeing as the kind of dominance that would trigger antitrust investigations.

At any rate, to say that "Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones" based on what has been reported is simply scurrilous speculation; you could just as easily say "Apple wants to protect its intellectual property."

death to the patents!

You mean the 'FUD' by a well respected company with a firm grounding and understanding in display calibration technology. Yeah, cos they don't know a damned thing when it comes to displays...oh wait!


It's an attack on HTC, the manufacturer of Android AND Windows Mobile devices.

But if you take it that "Apple is the largest company that sells cellphones", that statement is probably true.

Apple's market share of the smartphone industry is in the teens.

They just happen to be in the market segment that covers 70% of the profits.

Yeah but why have a 3-6month refresh cycle?

Most customers can't upgrade for 18-24months, so you end up with a ton of stale hardware sat on shelves and wasted time and effort on R&D

Apple just three years ago had essentially ZERO presence in the cellphone market. The iPhone is one of the highest growth products for the company, and within a few years could reach over 30% of all new "smart" cellphones sold out there.

I do think the Feds and possibly EU antitrust authorities should start being concerned because Apple's lawsuit against HTC is essentially a lawsuit by proxy against the Google Android cellphone operating system, trying to not only intimidate HTC but also LG, NOKIA, Samsung and Sony Ericcson (the four biggest cellphone makers in the world) and by proxy Google, too. Given the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases I cited earlier, Apple is effectively trying to use patent laws to prevent competition, a big no-no according to the Sherman Antitrust Act.

It's only a matter of time. Just wait. If anybody thinks the Europeans are going to sit back and watch Nokia get decimated they are fooling themselves. The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.

There has to be some wrongdoing for there to be any antitrust action. If Apple has truly been victimized, they've simply defended their patents successfully. If a good chunk of the competition victimized Apple, their liability to suffer consequences is incidental.

I think there are two theories. One is that it reduces the "oldness" of the last model. I wouldn't buy an iPhone in April because 1) it is 9/10-months old technology and 2) the new one is coming. But if there were models in May and Nov, the max age of the old model is only 4/5-months, so I might be more willing to buy it even though the new one is coming.

The other theory is that you can get more marketing mileage out of "NEW", even if it isn't that much "newer" than the previous model.

Personally, I think Apple could work it its big software release in June, but follow it with another not-as-big-but-still-significant software release in Jan/Feb. This year and last, there's not been much in any of the .x point releases.

Well, Nokia is still about 40% of the smartphone market, so if Apple got to 30%, well, they'd still be less!

And Nokia has already filed a patent suit against other cellphone makers (uh, that would be Apple). So if what you say is valid, why haven't there been any rumblings abut the Feds and EU antitrust authorities going after them? Isn't Nokia using patent laws to prevent competition? Or is it because what you're saying is nonsense - as neither Nokia or Apple are anywhere near monopolies.

Or maybe, there are just special rules dreamed up for Apple.

And as I said above, then that should apply to Nokia too, shouldn't it?

Especially since Nokia's patents are even more basic to cellphones, including smartphones.

Nokia's lawsuit against Apple is a recent example. Apple blatantly ripped off Nokia's IP. And that's just a small part of it. The technologies needed to build a modern phone are patented, and Apple simply trampled all over other people's IP when entering the market.

No way! Do you really think they have a choice?

No, but in this case, that's exactly what it is about. The proof is in the pudding.


No, they want to attack Android because they see Android as a huge threat.


Not at all.

And let's not forget Apple's shameful and disgusting behavior in the W3C, blocking the progress of open standards with frivolous patent claims! Apple is clearly feeling the heat, and are becoming desperate.

Examples, please?

Apple's certainly not trying to stifle competition, they're trying to protect their intellectual property. Apple spent 10 years and billions of dollars to develop the iPod/iPhone/iPad and to simply let others cherry pick what they want is ridiculous.

Sure, companies borrow and are influenced by others' designs, that's just the way everything works. BUT, when one sees blatant and direct copies of the iPhone, down to the the shape, color and surface finishes, even the home screen and icons and other interface elements... it's a wonder that Apple waited so long to go after the thieves.

insike - seriously do you even know what the Nokia suit and the Apple counter suit are about?? Any idea? At ALL?? Before running around like a witless numbnut - do just the smallest attempt at understanding the situation you reference - here let me help you:

Nokia has filed suit (and lodged a complaint with the International Trade Commission (ITC)) against Apple for what they claim is infringement by Apple of ten patents Nokia has applied to various mobile (under GSM/UMTS) and WiFi standards. Nokia has provided licensing of these patents under a standards pooling agreement the terms of which are fair and reasonable licensing terms to any company that wishes to use it and pay the established licensing fees, or in some cases, completely free and open.

Apple's countersuit and counter complaint with the ITC against Nokia claims infringement of 13 of Apple's patents and charges Nokia with not only demanding higher licensing fees for the ten standards-related patents from Apple but also demanding access to Apple's proprietary patents as a part of its own licensing terms with Apple.

The issues and allegations are plain - Nokia wants Apple to pay above and beyond the "fair, reasonable and non-discrimintory" fees required by being part of the patent pool for GSM technologies, up to and including proprietary patents that Apple holds that are of interest to Nokia.

You can in fact look at Apple's countersuit here: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/19291155...s=ZTY0Yy00OWE4

Now stop being silly and deal with the actual facts

Remember what I said: Apple's market growth for new cellphones has been spectacular, and they could approaching 1/3 of the entire world's market for "smart" cellphones within two years.

There's a famous quote from an early Spider-Man comic, "With great power comes great responsibility." Apple now wields tremendous influence in the cellphone market, but it needs to act as a responsible corporation with such a fast-growing market share. Apple in its suit against HTC is essentially a "shot across the bow" against Google and the four major cellphone manufacturers--LG, Nokia, Samsung and Sony Ericsson--in an attempt to stop the widespread distribution of "smart" touchscreen cellphones based on Google Android cellphone OS. That is approaching the point of potential patent abuse to eliminate a potential competitor, and I don't think Google, the four cellphone manufacturers I mentioned, or antitrust authorities in the USA and the EU will stand by idly!

I guess you didn't bother to read any part of that suit, and is just mouthing some nonsense picked up from the Internet.

If you had read it, you'd know that Apple claims that Nokia is attempting to charge Apple (and only Apple) higher rates than it's charging others for use of its patented technology, AND that Nokia's not allowed to do this since they submitted this technology to a standards body to be included in the GSM Standards, which requires that they offer licensing on a Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory (FRAND) basis. Thus, Apple has refused to agree to pay the higher rates. And that's why Nokia sued.

Apple made it very clear that they are willing to pay FRAND rates - so that there is no intent to "rip off Nokia's IP."

You still haven't answered why your assertion doesn't apply to Nokia, who has an even larger market share and sued Apple first.

Until you do, I see no reason to entertain any other assertions you make.

The end result of the Apple vs Nokia & Apple vs HTC cases will be the same. A cross-licensing agreement and maybe some other shared technologies.

A rational post at last!

Many people see these patent disputes as corporate warfare.

When as often as not, this is how large companies exchange their intellectual DNA.

It's not so much war. More a sort of clumsy mating.

C.

You just quoted the post where I mentioned Nokia.

Yes, as a matter of fact.


No, this is false. FRAND applies to the other companies who added their patents to the GSM patent pool. Apple did no such thing, but wanted special treatment. Despite not having contributed, they wanted to get away with not having to pay up for the IP they blatantly stole.

Other mobile manufacturers are cross-licensing patents. Apple refused to. Apple also refused to pay up. Apple blatantly stole Nokia's IP. Nokia sued Apple for their theft of IP.

See the post above:

Apple did no such thing, but wanted special treatment. Despite not having contributed, they wanted to get away with not having to pay up for the IP they blatantly stole.

Other mobile manufacturers are cross-licensing patents. Apple refused to. Apple also refused to pay up. Apple blatantly stole Nokia's IP. Nokia sued Apple for their theft of IP.


The problem is that if Apple never contributed to the GSM patent pool, but still wanted to have the exact same terms as companies that did, leaving other companies at a huge disadvantage. Simply put: Apple wanted special treatment, and didn't give a crap about stealing the IP of other companies.

That's false. Are you just trying to bullshit your way through this?

If Apple isn't supposed to get FRAND rates when they haven't contributed to the patent pool, they'd be laughed out of court for even bringing it up.

Instead, I'm laughing at you.

Probably no cross-licensing in Apple vs Nokia, as Nokia is in the wrong by asking for more money from Apple than from any other manufacturers.

Remember, Apple WANTS to pay Nokia the money they are entitled to (which happens to be less than Nokia is DEMANDING).

Apple don't care about selling fewer units than Nokia. They care about making more profits. (as a commercial entity, they should).

So when will Apple pass Nokia in terms of profits?

Sometime in the middle of last year.

C.

Hope you felt that way when Nokia launched its suit. After all, they're entitled to protect their IP too (yes, I do know what the dispute is about...just saying). Some lawsuits are just plain stupid and are not done to protect IP but just to hinder the opposition. It's clear which category this (and Nokia's lawsuit) falls under. Heck, there are patents here that are in dispute with Nokia and embroiled in the courts on that front.

I sincerely hope Apple get's back to making great products as opposed to going patent crazy and deciding that the best way to compete is just to sue everybody else.

At the current moment, yes, there has been no wrongdoing. Despite the fact that some of these patents shouldn't have been awarded for being so broad in the first place, they were and Apple has the right to sue.

However, you can clearly see a precedent that can form here. If Apple wins, then they can use this case as leverage against the contracted hardware manufacturers for its competitors across the board. Take out the competitor's ability to actually manufacture and sell their software on a smartphone, and you essentially kill their business. And that's when you get into the antitrust action.

I personally hope that Steve Jobs and Apple don't get power crazy to that point and everyone can happily settle out of court.

<<<<< This.

What's going to happen here eventually is HTC, LG, Nokia, Samsung, Kodak, Motorola and Google are going to pull together and freaking demolish the most over-rated, over-priced and over-branded corporation we've ever seen much to the dismay of their sycophantic fan base. If you know anything about computers and technology and pricing you'd stay the hell away from Apple. Lockdown, money money money and more lockdown.

I certainly wouldn't call Microsoft any better but just as was said above HTC is an easy target and much more of an innovator than Apple. The only thing the other companies lack that Apple have is brand power plain and simple, it's nothing to do with innovation and if people are too stupid to step back and see this then they can mosey on being overcharged for underpowered hardware in pretty cases, targeted at people too dumb to use more than one mouse button (until absurdly recently) who can only relate to technology through personification of it via teletubby ads.

Imagine what would be left of the iPhone if Google pulled their support? Bye bye maps, bye bye search, by bye youtube bye bye internet. Bye bye crApple. Apple want to prey that Google don't get involved in this.

Man I'm disproportionately cross about the whole thing.

I actually have no opinion about the merits of these lawsuits because I don't know enough about the technical particulars. And yes, I think that Nokia has a right to protect its IP, although from what I've read that doesn't seem to be the actual matter in dispute, involving as it does some cross licensing demands from Nokia.

In general, I don't think it's a good idea to posit anthropomorphized, emotional motivations for huge legal actions, I don't think it's a good idea to simply dismiss all such lawsuits out of hand as being baseless, or to assume that every such lawsuit is an ironclad case. I think it's pretty obvious that companies can and do bring suit for strategic and leverage reasons.

Prove it.

or prove that Apple is using more than a combination of the technology it licensed from Qualcomm, SonyEricsson, others and in-house developed solutions.

Apple is a member of the WiFi standards group, which is one of the issues Nokia is suing over.

I guess we'll have to wait until it gets to court to prove your unsubstantiated claims.

The point here is that Apple wants special treatment. They want the same as the companies who have actually contributed to the GSM standard. But since they didn't contribute, they do not deserve the same terms as those who actually submitted their IP to the standard.

Nokia is just asking for what's right. That means that Apple will not get special treatment..


No, Apple wants to pay less, and get a lot for free, since they didn't contribute to the GSM pool.

So part of Nokia's patents cover codecs, Apple has done a lot of work on codecs and compression for transmission over networks, in partnership with Qualcomm who recently obtained a largish settlement off Nokia.

Prove that Apple is using ANY of Nokia's technology in their phones.

That will happen in COURT.

Have you ever heard of the presumption of innocence?

It's what most civilised countries have in their legal system to protect people and other legal entities from unfounded accusations.

The first suit by Nokia covers the GSM patents, it is not before the ITC.

The SECOND suit by Nokia, WHICH DOES NOT INVOLVE the GSM patents is before the ITC AND involves patents relating to almost everything Apple makes.

So why don't you f@#k off with your kangaroo court bulls#@t and let the legal system get on with it's job.

Fact is, Nokia's patents have been accepted by other companies who have been willing to act honestly. Not so with Apple.

"Other companies" are not the legal entities who will decide the merits of Nokia's patents, thus they are irrelevant to the cases.