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Apple sues HTC for alleged infringement of 20 iPhone patents - Page 3

post #81 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

You also have to remember that Apple have been in the computer biz since day one. They pretty much invented the UI (albeit initially slightly pilfered), and a phone is just a small computer really.

Apple PAID Xerox for use of their IP: GUI, mouse, laser printing, etc..

Without Apple, computers today would look like something from Brazil (the movie).
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post #82 of 279
Im an all Apple Shop... I own a MBP, I've owned all 3 iPhones and now Im on a HTC Hero.. I only changed because the iPhone plan was too expensive.. I loved my iPhone..

THIS is just retarded on Apples part. Come on guys, without competition, what would we have? I really hope the FTC steps in and takes control over the situation.. Limiting growth on another corporation just because they sell a phone that functions like yours? I must say that Android and the iPhone are pretty far from the same.. This is just like Apple who keeps the OS closed so se cant FULLY use our equipment that WE pay for.

Sorry, but Apple needs to lose this one..
post #83 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

Oh whoop de doo!. Apple lost the look-feel patent dispute with Microsoft yonks ago. ....

As with the patents though, it's the details that count.

There is a popular misconception that Apple lost that suit because "you can't patent look and feel" when that isn't the case at all. The suit was "settled" (not "lost"), because Apple could have been construed to have given Microsoft permission to copy them in an agreement Apple signed with Microsoft over technology sharing. They settled out of court because of that, not because "look and feel" lawsuits are inherently un-winable.

If Apple has a patent on the "look and feel" of iPhone interface elements (they do), and valid trademarks on the "look and feel" of the iPhone (they do as of last week), there is nothing to stop them from forcing the copy-cats to stop copying them. In fact it's likely to be a slam dunk.

That being said, they don't appear to be doing that. They are being nice and only suing HTC on specific technologies that were pilfered, and don't seem to care about "look and feel" so far.
post #84 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Yeah! Game changing innovations just like Google Maps, Google Search, and Google Navigation! Oh wait...

because mapquest and Yahoo didn't exist?
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post #85 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Looks like the legal team has an idea for how to spend that $40 billion in cash!

Anyone else noticed the attacks on Android that are springing up?

A week or so a go we had a pure FUD hatchet job attempted on the Nexus One, erroneously claiming it only had a 16 bit display. I wonder who paid for that bit of 'research'?

Now we have a full frontal attack on the manufacturer of the Nexus One who also are producing Android phones.
post #86 of 279
Oh, and I think apples should sue oranges because they are round in likeness and hang from trees.
post #87 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbrasington View Post

Appleis scared of Android?
Check yor meds buddy.... it's time.

"Google's don't be evil mantra? It's bullshit! They're trying to kill us!" - Steve Jobs at a recent town hall meeting post iPad conference.
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post #88 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post

alm, they just didn't see them as a real threat. Htc coupled with Android is a very real threat. It's on the table. And I agree with the above statements that the Implementation of multitouch to the N1 in addition to Sense UI probably tipped the scale.

I think that Apple didn't bother going after Palm because Palm was "only" piggybacking onto iTunes, not stealing their products. It really benefitted Apple in a minor way: more iTunes users, more iTunes Store sales. I'm surprised that Apple didn't license an iTunes "key" to Palm for them to use iTunes.

All Apple needed do was tweak iTunes a bit and break the Palm connections. A few hours of programmers' time versus the bottomless money pit of legal action. Sounds like a deal.

Maybe Apple was cutting Jon Rubinstein some slack, too.
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post #89 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2002brian View Post

because mapquest and Yahoo didn't exist?

Even more to my point!

Quadra's post was that only Apple is able to create innovative things and field them to the consumer. All the Google items I listed have become "game changers" in their own right.

The success of Apple can, in part, be attributed to its partnership with Google (Maps and Search).
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post #90 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2002brian View Post

because mapquest and Yahoo didn't exist?

And you would argue that those services are as usable/functional/accurate as Google's versions?

They're relics of the internet now, just like Alta Vista and Netscape. There's a reason why people don't use them much anymore. Yahoo's still fighting to be relevant these days.
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post #91 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Here we go!

"We've patented the hell out of this thing"

Finally! Apple wakes up and takes action.

Totally agree!
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post #92 of 279
Appearently Engadget has posted that HTC says this a complete suprise.

The list of devices is: Nexus One, Touch Pro, Touch Diamond, Touch Pro2, Tilt II, Pure, Imagio, Dream / G1, myTouch 3G, Hero, HD2, and Droid Eris

One should note those devices run Android or Windows Mobile. Some with Sense and some without.

Again, if they are running without Sense, shouldn't Apple be after Microsoft or Google.

I guess it could get really ugly if Microsoft or Google get involved. I'd imagine they would want to if they feel the sale of their devices could get stopped.

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post #93 of 279
Some of the things mentioned don't even deserve a patent.


"Unlocking A Device By Performing Gestures On An Unlock Image"


Patents ought be novel and innovative, and yet they seem to have been granted coverage over something that hardly smacks of innovation.

Remember this: the leaking out of ideas (whether patented or not) is good for the whole industry and for consumers as a whole. Ideas want to flow from one company and one product to the next, and with the movement of staff and reverse engineering of products they always do.

Sure patenting allows some healthy capture of initial profits but there is also plenty of ideas that that ought be beyond being captured by one company in perpetuity, and I think this example is one of those.
post #94 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous guy View Post

"Google's don't be evil mantra? It's bullshit! They're trying to kill us!" - Steve Jobs at a recent town hall meeting post iPad conference.

Yet I get called an idiot and told to check my meds when I dare mention this could be because Apple is scared of Android.

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post #95 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

So based on the list I posted above from Gizmodo, they are for example suing on the lockscreen found on touch screen phones.

To me, that sounds pretty frivolous.

It also sounds they are just gathering all their patents and throwing them at HTC in the hope they stick.

Some of the like the Digital Camera patent are quite old. HTC has used Digital Camera for years (my Orange SPV had an included Camera you could attach).

Notice the lack of multitouch.

This just proves to me that they are for whatever reason afraid of Android.

Also reducing voltage to the processor seems quite suspect as AMD and Intel have done this for years. Yes this was issued in 2008. I know it states only a portion of the processor, but isn't this exactly what NVIDIA Tegra does?

My opinion is that we do need patent reform and that Apple should be ashamed of themselves.

Most of this has NOTHING to do with the iPhone is just an attempt to bully HTC over Android.


One. Frivolous is a matter of opinion. I think your whole argument is frivolous.

Two. So since Nokia was the first to sue Apple do you say that Nokia is bullying Apple becuase they were scared? If you're going to call a spade a spade be sure to share the love all the way around.

Three. Maybe you're right. But I think alot of people that come into an Apple forum keep missing the point. It's like going to a Batman forum board and saying that Superman is the raddest man and Batman sucks and is a big bully. I mean really, what do you think is going to happen? There's a reason that people are called fans, and sometimes that means looking over the faults no matter what they are. Obviously you are some sort of fan for Android or you wouldn't be on here posting how bad the evil Apple Corporation is. Just don't be suprised when someone goes to an Android forum or HTC forum and bad mouths them there.

Just food for thought.
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post #96 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

Yet I get called an idiot and told to check my meds when I dare mention this could be because Apple is scared of Android.

Check your meds, idiot. Android is on it's way out. It's finished! Iphone OS RULEZ!



</sarcasm>
post #97 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lochias View Post

Apple has innovated and has taken ideas from others, indeed. What company has not? The whole point of patent law is to facilitate this very process, by encouraging inventors to publish the details of useful and marketable ideas in open disclosures, giving them a vetted claim to priority and royalties.

Why exactly is it a "major problem" that large companies can do this? Small companies can.

Anyone can. Some years ago, Peter Roberts, a Sears store employee, independently patented (#3,208,318) the quick-release socket wrench. He made $1,000,000 in court after Sears stole it. Is that a problem to you as well?

Have you been looking at the patents over the past few years? These corporate companies have been able to patent tech that's been around for years. It has become ridiculous. This has been a major problem that has benefitted larger companies because they have a heavier influence on the marketplace.

It has got far past the point where the modern inventor cannot challenge a team of Ivy League lawyers because they can't afford the expenses.

If you look at Apple's recent history, they have lost as many lawsuits as they have won because they do take tech that is patented by other small companies. The individual inventor is handicapped no matter what you say. It is always better to have a team of high paid lawyers.

Fanboys may not admit but Apple is not always innocent in these situation. Don't think I dislike Apple. For the most part, I only buy their products because they are the best at what they do. Their needs to be some honesty on this thread.
post #98 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateKylie View Post

So based on the list I posted above from Gizmodo, they are for example suing on the lockscreen found on touch screen phones.

To me, that sounds pretty frivolous.

It also sounds they are just gathering all their patents and throwing them at HTC in the hope they stick.

Some of the like the Digital Camera patent are quite old. HTC has used Digital Camera for years (my Orange SPV had an included Camera you could attach).

Notice the lack of multitouch.

This just proves to me that they are for whatever reason afraid of Android.

Also reducing voltage to the processor seems quite suspect as AMD and Intel have done this for years. Yes this was issued in 2008. I know it states only a portion of the processor, but isn't this exactly what NVIDIA Tegra does?

My opinion is that we do need patent reform and that Apple should be ashamed of themselves.

Most of this has NOTHING to do with the iPhone is just an attempt to bully HTC over Android.

You sure make it sound like Apple is the only one to sue in regards to patents.

What are you thoughts on Nokia or Kodak suing Apple. I imagine thats all fine and dandy.
post #99 of 279
I've been waiting to see what Apple would do about the copyists ...

Browsing the lawsuit docs, it gets way too technical for me to decipher. I'll be content to let the courts sort it out. Interesting to see Next listed there on the first page. A lot of the patents seem to do with object oriented programing ... Snow Leopard is mentioned a bunch, and iTunes to a lesser extent.

Remember well the initial iPhone unveiling and how near the end, Jobs touted the 200 patents that they had on various parts of it and the vow that they would protect them. I've wondered about that statement more than once in the several years that have passed since that day.

I trust them to have their ducks in a row.
post #100 of 279
My take is that Apple hasn't patented the concept of "multi-touch", but has patented the specific algorithms used by the device to correctly interpret what users' touches mean. For example, "Touch Screen Device, Method, And Graphical User Interface For Determining Commands By Applying Heuristics." From Wikipedia, "In computer science, a heuristic algorithm, or simply a heuristic, is an algorithm that is able to produce an acceptable solution to a problem in many practical scenarios, in the fashion of a general heuristic, but for which there is no formal proof of its correctness..."

Obviously Apple can't patent the idea of touching a screen, but I think what Apple has patented is how the iPhone intreprets such a touch. The titile of the patent says, "Determining Commands By Applying Heuristics." Is this a click? Does the user mean to scroll down? Is he flicking to the next photo? Is this a pinch? Is this a random touch to be ignored?

I would think that HTC would have to divulge what it's algorithms are in order to prove they didn't copy Apple's.
post #101 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by msantti View Post

You sure make it sound like Apple is the only one to sue in regards to patents.

What are you thoughts on Nokia or Kodak suing Apple. I imagine thats all fine and dandy.

If you would reread what I posted, you will notice something about PATENT REFORM listed in there.

That is my opinion on all of this. I think Nokia shouldn't have sued Apple, though I can understand it slightly in light of this. Perhaps Nokia was scared Apple would sue them and thought if they beat them to it they would have a leg up. Especially consider that Nokia doesn't sell anything really in the US so a loss wouldn't kill them.

As for Kodak, based right next door (I live in Rochester, NY). I think they have had plenty of time to innovate and have lost patent suits before (I think someone mentioned prior in the thread a quite large suit was lost way back in the day). I think Kodak should have seen things coming. They had plenty of time back when AOL was selling crap digital cameras to join the croud. The didn't until digital cameras got better and were really in and thus lost marketshare.

As for HTC, I honestly believe the knew touch was the next big thing and had planned that direction. Obviously, Microsoft was a stumbling block (though Photon, was prototyped inside Microsoft in 2005 before the iPhone was public and was quite a touch friendly version of Windows Mobile, though I will say I'm glad they ditched in favour of WP7S which I think is way better) as well the fact that HTC had never done software before. So to claim that HTC mastered touch software in 6 months after the announcement of the iPhone is just pure idiocracy. No they had obviously planned this stop gap before WM7 which was then ditched after the iPhone showed Microsoft it need a UI revolution just not a touch version of WM6. Can the iPhone take credit for that yes, but atleast Microsoft did a completely new UI that is quite revolutionary in some aspects.

But I'll say it again. We need patent reform. Technology as we know it today is a different beast to what it was back when patent law was created. Today technology moves so fast and it is impossible not have the same ideas being created at the same time in different ways. It is also impossible to not use other ideas, unless you don't want to progress and just die. The iPhone and other companies would not exist if Nokia was strict on its patents. They has such a huge hand in the creation of GSM. The fact is most Computer Technology patents go unenforced until a patent troll decides he wants money or a company fears losing or actually loses marketshare to a competitor or is about bankrupt (Kodak).

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post #102 of 279
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Originally Posted by eldernorm View Post


Apple is the largest cell phone seller by profit in the world. Others sell more units... Apple makes more money..


If you include computers, software, ipods, peripherals, songs, etc. etc.

Not if you compare profit made on telephones vs. profits made my nokia or ericsson or motorola or HTC or etc. etc. on telephones.

That statement by Stevie was pretty loaded. But I guess you went for it....
post #103 of 279
Hey I am happy for Apple. For years I have been watching Apple create great products and software and love them all (sure a few hiccups here and there) and all I see is competition that see Apple as a threat to there market try suing Apple. Apple for years has been taking the punches from others it's nice to see them fight back.
post #104 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by willychu View Post

My take is that Apple hasn't patented the concept of "multi-touch", but has patented the specific algorithms used by the device to correctly interpret what users' touches mean. For example, "Touch Screen Device, Method, And Graphical User Interface For Determining Commands By Applying Heuristics." From Wikipedia, "In computer science, a heuristic algorithm, or simply a heuristic, is an algorithm that is able to produce an acceptable solution to a problem in many practical scenarios, in the fashion of a general heuristic, but for which there is no formal proof of its correctness..."

Obviously Apple can't patent the idea of touching a screen, but I think what Apple has patented is how the iPhone intreprets such a touch. The titile of the patent says, "Determining Commands By Applying Heuristics." Is this a click? Does the user mean to scroll down? Is he flicking to the next photo? Is this a pinch? Is this a random touch to be ignored?

I would think that HTC would have to divulge what it's algorithms are in order to prove they didn't copy Apple's.

This is where it then becomes really muddy. Lets say HTC uses an algorithm that isn't an exact copy of Apple's but it does the exact same thing in the end. Is it still considered copying?

For those of you who know math well, I use solving ODEs as an example. There's the traditional way of using the homogeneous and particular solutions and then there's using Laplace transforms. On the top level, you're both solving an ODE. But in the details, you used two different methods to get to the answer.

At this point, the "spirit" of the patent is pretty much thrown out and it becomes which side's team of lawyers can find the most technicalities to out-maneuver the other.
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post #105 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

Apple PAID Xerox for use of their IP: GUI, mouse, laser printing, etc..

Without Apple, computers today would look like something from Brazil (the movie).

Yeah, right. Without Apple we'd still be using the command line, because nobody else would have bought Xerox's technology, and nobody else would have figured out an alternative to DOS.

And without Thomas Edison we'd be facing an acute shortage of whale oil which would be the only thing enabling us to things at night.
post #106 of 279
Lets just say that I am buying a pair of Nexus Ones later this month....

I like them better than the iPhone...
post #107 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrnight View Post

Come on guys, without competition, what would we have?

So am I to understand that your idea of competition is stealing someone else's IP? That does not sound competitive - just outright theft! (Assuming Apple's Patents are upheld.)
post #108 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post

Just curious, why do you always post from your Iphone?

Some typos make it obvious you're using an iPhone. Like most people, I seem to spend most of life in lines or waiting somewhere. The iPhone is a convenient tool for passing the time.

Quote:
No, Apple had a strong case against Palm, they just didn't see them as a real threat. Htc coupled with Android is a very real threat. It's on the table. And I agree with the above statements that the Implementation of multitouch to the N1 in addition to Sense UI probably tipped the scale.

If Palm can get more successful we might see Apple go after them, unless Palm has something on them. We saw Apple take their good ol' time with Psystar. "When to strike is as important as the where and how."
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post #109 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by sranger View Post

Lets just say that I am buying a pair of Nexus Ones later this month....

I like them better than the iPhone...

What the hell does that have to do with a patent case?

Oh well thanks for the update since a lot of us were losing sleep!
post #110 of 279
I hear everyone screaming "reform" and while it's not that I don't disagree the system needs to be looked at but do anyone of you have any ideas of what you think the system needs to be reformed? I mean the public school system has been reformed many times. Is it any better? It's not a perfect system and neither is the judicial system but it works!
post #111 of 279
Why do we have to take advice from guys, like sranger, that don't have a Mac or an iPhone?
post #112 of 279
While I posted in a similar vein when the Nokia suit story broke here, it bears repeating. First you cannot judge a patent by it's title, no matter how many you list in sequence. It is the details of the patent, the technology, etc. that are critical, period. So to cry foul based on the title or concept is to demonstrate a very deep lack of understanding of the patent/tort system and pertaining laws, no matter how broken it is.

Second, multitouch has many, many implementations. There is no effective way to carry multitouch specifically into this conversation without being very specific about to which implementation of multitouch you refer. Apple is of course suing on the basis of its very particular implementation of multitouch, derived (most likely, but not definitively) from its acquisition of a smaller multitouch developer company and its patents/IP.

I have not yet seen an opinion expressed in this thread that demonstrates any expertise in patent law or the purported technologies in question under the suit, so all of this is purely speculative and more or less inaccurate, as none of us have the necessary information required to make anything but an uninformed observation.

As for attributing anything like emotions to a large corporation, that's simply anthropmorphising at a ridiculous level, something else I posted on a while back. Apple, Microsoft, HTC, Motorola aren't "scared" of anything. The executives, managers and administrators spend their time directing operations to ensure the ongoing success of the corporation. If it makes business sense to sue another company, based on targeted research into their products and services compared to owned IP or competitive offerings, that's what they do. If it makes business sense to partner with a company that competes with them, they do that too. The corporate business landscape is incredibly complex, and involves a matrix of competing and cooperating relationships that the average person wouldn't and doesn't grasp. Especially as evidenced here.
post #113 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mplaisance View Post

I hear everyone screaming "reform" and while it's not that I don't disagree the system needs to be looked at but do anyone of you have any ideas of what you think the system needs to be reformed? I mean the public school system has been reformed many times. Is it any better? It's not a perfect system and neither is the judicial system but it works!

The judicial system is a convoluted mess of bureaucracy and corruption.
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post #114 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

This is where it then becomes really muddy. Lets say HTC uses an algorithm that isn't an exact copy of Apple's but it does the exact same thing in the end. Is it still considered copying?

For those of you who know math well, I use solving ODEs as an example. There's the traditional way of using the homogeneous and particular solutions and then there's using Laplace transforms. On the top level, you're both solving an ODE. But in the details, you used two different methods to get to the answer.

At this point, the "spirit" of the patent is pretty much thrown out and it becomes which side's team of lawyers can find the most technicalities to out-maneuver the other.

Can you image a situation that somebody would patent a certain method of solving an ODE? Or may be someone would patent the idea of solving an ODE??

OMF, it will stop the progress and roll us back for a long time...
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post #115 of 279
How can apple patent something like changing voltage to a portion of a processor when their is prior art going back decades?
post #116 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous guy View Post

The judicial system is a convoluted mess of bureaucracy and corruption.

Can't say I totally disagree. But I rather be on trial in American than anywhere else
post #117 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom1981 View Post

How can apple patent something like changing voltage to a portion of a processor when their is prior art going back decades?

Patents are granted on implementations, not ideas. So presumably their argument would be that HTC copied the exact same way in which they achieve this, which is also (presumably) unique.

Who is right or wrong is what the whole court thing is about.
post #118 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mplaisance View Post

Can't say I totally disagree. But I rather be on trial in American than anywhere else

Do you have some knowledge about any judicial system outside of the US?
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post #119 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by masternav View Post

While I posted in a similar vein when the Nokia suit story broke here, it bears repeating. First you cannot judge a patent by it's title, no matter how many you list in sequence. It is the details of the patent, the technology, etc. that are critical, period. So to cry foul based on the title or concept is to demonstrate a very deep lack of understanding of the patent/tort system and pertaining laws, no matter how broken it is.

Second, multitouch has many, many implementations. There is no effective way to carry multitouch specifically into this conversation without being very specific about to which implementation of multitouch you refer. Apple is of course suing on the basis of its very particular implementation of multitouch, derived (most likely, but not definitively) from its acquisition of a smaller multitouch developer company and its patents/IP.

I have not yet seen an opinion expressed in this thread that demonstrates any expertise in patent law or the purported technologies in question under the suit, so all of this is purely speculative and more or less inaccurate, as none of us have the necessary information required to make anything but an uninformed observation.

As for attributing anything like emotions to a large corporation, that's simply anthropmorphising at a ridiculous level, something else I posted on a while back. Apple, Microsoft, HTC, Motorola aren't "scared" of anything. The executives, managers and administrators spend their time directing operations to ensure the ongoing success of the corporation. If it makes business sense to sue another company, based on targeted research into their products and services compared to owned IP or competitive offerings, that's what they do. If it makes business sense to partner with a company that competes with them, they do that too. The corporate business landscape is incredibly complex, and involves a matrix of competing and cooperating relationships that the average person wouldn't and doesn't grasp. Especially as evidenced here.

I find it amusing you think everyone in here is idiots and couldn't possibly understand corporations.

I think in fact corporations do have emotions. They are very much like people.

Yes even people will partner with 'competitors' if the end result is to their benifit. How many times have you seen that in history where a country or two people who where enemies joined together for a cause that benifited both of them (or only one, after the other stabbed one in the back).

As for emotions, scared may not be the best word but it does describe what you said. The company did research and is 'afraid' that another company may have a better received product so that company will see what tools it has available (patents) and use them.

And I never said I was an expert, but i'm no fool either. I understand what is going on with this suit. I think Apple needs to be careful as this can be a PR disaster as well, especially if Google or Microsoft join in. In these connected time, everything has potential PR fallouts especially when in save for Blackberry, iPhone is #1 in the US.

Even Engadget has now labeled this as a suit against primarily Android. So I think the general tech consensus is getting quite clear. Also this suit doesn't mention Multitouch. So maybe YOU should get your fact straight.

Edit: Let me also add, that this is an Apple fansite. Where fans (or not) comment on Apple related (and sometimes not) news. Nobody ever said you had to be an expert to comment, as this is not a professional site. I find it amusing that there is always one of you around on the various sites I visit that claims people have no right to comment or have an opinion.

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post #120 of 279
[QUOTE=gin_tonic;1582522]Do you have some knowledge about any judicial system outside of the US?[/QUOTE
Do you?
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