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Inside Apple's lawsuit against HTC - Page 3

post #81 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

And how exactly would Apple know such a thing? Reverse engineer htc devices? Isn't that illegal?

If they didn't, then aren't they going out on a limb and guessing the same methods are used?

Reverse engineering isn't illegal. There's no DMCA issue involved here.

And don't you think Apple (and every corporation with a significant set of patents) has a department that takes apart and tests devices from other companies?
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post #82 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

It was bound to happen. No one has made a touch-screen phone before the iPhone. So, how are they going to make one without infringing on Apple patents.

Expect more lawsuits. This is just an opening shot.

Just a correction. Lots of other companies have made touch-screen phones before the iPhone.

It's the multi-touch, among possibly some other things, that they haven't done.
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post #83 of 128
It's funny seeing how some people react to this.

Nokia sues Apple -> "This lawsuit is without merit and Nokia are only doing this out of desperation."
Apple sues HTC -> "HTC need to stop copying Apple! This is an outrage!!!!"

Of course, everyone on here is an expert in patent law so it's cool.
post #84 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

It was bound to happen. No one has made a touch-screen phone before the iPhone. So, how are they going to make one without infringing on Apple patents.

Expect more lawsuits. This is just an opening shot.

Handspring (ne Palm) released a touch screen phone in 2002 called the Treo.

I have owned the Treo, Treo600, and an iPhone in the past decade. The iPhone interface is a huge departure from what came before, but it is not the touch screen, it is the size, and the multi-touch experience that set it apart.

I have been waiting for this lawsuit for the past 3? years, since the first 'multi-touch' phone became available from HTC and T-Mobile. Put every other aspect aside - apple has patented the multi-touch experience, cover flow and their take on the software keyboard.

Palm offered nothing like it. WiMo (yeah right) offered nothing like it, and to the best of my knowledge, Nokia offered nothing like it. This lawsuit may be one of many steps in a dance to clarify who 'owns' and who licenses these technologies. My guess? HTC, Nokia, Palm end up as licensees.
post #85 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

The fact that both WinMo and Android-based HTC phones are being targeted, suggests that it is something specific about HTC's handsets, such as the Sense UI maybe?

The Nexus One doesn't use Sense UI so I doubt that is the reason.
post #86 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiven View Post

The Nexus One doesn't use Sense UI so I doubt that is the reason.

There are 20 reasons, so that could be one them, or elements of it could be I'm sure. Interesting to see how it pans out when more details become available. I'm very interested in the patents that are included.
post #87 of 128
Simple. Go and invent something better to up the ante.
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post #88 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

How does it stifle innovation?

Assuming HTC is guilty (which they might not be), wouldn't we all be better off it HTC found another, hopefully better, faster, efficient, way to implement an objects, multi-touch, power saving, etc? How does it advance technology for them to do it the exact same way?

Exactly. Moreover, there is nothing that says HTC shouldn't or couldn't use Apple's IP. They then have to simply pay for it.
post #89 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

It's funny seeing how some people react to this.

Nokia sues Apple -> "This lawsuit is without merit and Nokia are only doing this out of desperation."
Apple sues HTC -> "HTC need to stop copying Apple! This is an outrage!!!!"

Of course, everyone on here is an expert in patent law so it's cool.

I think it's funny how everyone wanted to find out the details, and then when AppleInsider publishes them, the majority of the debate is still a "he said, she said" over whether Apple is "scared" and how patent law works.

Absolutely no one has anything to say about the idea that the HTC touch keyboard might infringe, or the lock screen, or really *any* of the details. We might just as well be slapping each other with fish for all the progress this "debate" is making.
post #90 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

It's funny seeing how some people react to this.

Nokia sues Apple -> "This lawsuit is without merit and Nokia are only doing this out of desperation."
Apple sues HTC -> "HTC need to stop copying Apple! This is an outrage!!!!"

Of course, everyone on here is an expert in patent law so it's cool.

Yet I recall seeing that the other way, too. I think it's fair to say that some will always side with Apple here, some against, but most are objective in their comments.
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post #91 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I think it's funny how everyone wanted to find out the details, and then when AppleInsider publishes them, the majority of the debate is still a "he said, she said" over whether Apple is "scared" and how patent law works.

Absolutely no one has anything to say about the idea that the HTC touch keyboard might infringe, or the lock screen, or really *any* of the details. We might just as well be slapping each other with fish for all the progress this "debate" is making.

It's the tabloid generation. People don't actually care about the facts or details, just the sensational emotionally-driven speculation about motives.

This will go on for a few days before the emotion peters out, everyone satisfied that they were right; facts be damned.
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post #92 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusYoung View Post

Your lack of knowledge and ignorance given the comment above is amazing.

You do realize that HTC has a 260 Billion dollar market cap as of today.

http://investing.businessweek.com/re...ticker=2498:TT

I believe you may have ignorantly assumed all countries in the world use the USD. Sure HTC have a 257.2Billion market cap. But that is Taiwan New Dollars which with todays exchange rate is about 8 Billion USD. Apple on the hand has a market cap of 189.3 Billion USD and is holding close to 40 Billion USD in Cash and Short Term liquid Assets. So all of HTC is worth less than 25% of the spare cash Apple has lying about the place. ;-)
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post #93 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusYoung View Post

A cheap clone from China? Really? Do some research on a company before you make ignorant statements.

Have you ever even used an HTC Phone?

With what knowledge do you make such a blanket statement about a company or the product they manufacture?

Now I *know* you are really teckstud like some people say.

Only he would quote himself (and a quote that makes him look like a complete fool as well), and then instead of quoting what I already replied to the original quote, pastes on a completely unrelated "reply" from me on a totally different aspect.

Complete gibberish.
post #94 of 128
And now for something informative to get away from AngusYoung's odious trolling...

Niley Patel briefly discuss each patent & possible implications
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post #95 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And now for something informative to get away from AngusYoung's odious trolling...
Niley Patel briefly discuss each patent & possible implications

Woah.

Quite a few of those seem like a total lock by Apple. Very serious stuff, especially the Federal court ones. Thanks for posting the link.

I don't see Apple making these kind of claims without intending to fight right to the end with them. Considering at the end of the day Apple could probably buy HTC outright and shut them down, I don't see Apple losing the game either.

I think the best outcome would be if Google would just concede and licence the technology from Apple. Save everyone a lot of headaches and money.
post #96 of 128
Something like this, you mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Such as patents that Palm holds...

...#7,007,239, "Method and apparatus for accessing a contacts database and telephone services" i.e. phone.app including buttons in the phone.app UI to bring up contacts, history, etc. In fact the diagram in the Palm patent submission is almost a diagram of the iPhone phone UI but was from 2006.

Hey how's Skype coming along with the 3G thing?

I haven't noticed any updates yet.
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post #97 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I think the best outcome would be if Google would just concede and licence the technology from Apple. Save everyone a lot of headaches and money.

Does Apple even license any of these technologies?
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post #98 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Does Apple even license any of these technologies?

Probably not, but someone should at least try, no?

I think what Apple has done here is to fire a very broad warning shot to a whole lot of manufacturers, esp. Motorola. I'll bet MOT's lawyers are poring through every word of that filing, looking for where and when the ax could fall.

Apple is taking it just one step at a time.
post #99 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

HTC Android phones have been creeping up their functionality in imitation of the iPhone for some time.

Adding a bit here, an update there pushing, pushing, pushing.

Time to stop and develop their own.

13 years, only 5 years after the Apple Newton.

Multi-touch existed before the iPhone you know.

Will Google be able to sue Apple if they ever implement multi-tasking in the iPhone?

There has to be common sense used with these kind of disputes. Android is an evolution of iPhone OS, the next step forward, just as iPhone OS was an evolution over Windows Mobile etc. I imagine Windows Phone 7 will be an evolution over Android. Everyone builds one the basic ideas of others.
post #100 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And now for something informative to get away from AngusYoung's odious trolling...
Niley Patel briefly discuss each patent & possible implications

Thanks for the link, the explanations are great.

BTW, did you have a look at the comments over at engadget. People are just going crazy over the fact that Apple is filing this lawsuit. I mean, ok, some of these patents look rather silly, but overall, they should protect their IP.

And the same goes for other companies. If they do inventions, they have to protect them.

And what Apple really did with the iPhone is not finding some cutting edge technology, because everything in it already existed, they just put the things together in a way nobody had ever done before, and added the required software.
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post #101 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

And how exactly would Apple know such a thing? Reverse engineer htc devices? Isn't that illegal?

If they didn't, then aren't they going out on a limb and guessing the same methods are used?

When you put your finger on the virtual keyboard on an iPhone, a "tab" pops up above your finger with the selected key shown larger, at which time, if you've pressed the wrong key, you can slide your finger in the appropriate direction to find the right key before you make a mistake.

If the HTC phones do that, it is a violation of Apple patents.

There are countless other examples of this type of implementation that would be the subject of the lawsuit.
post #102 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

Multi-touch existed before the iPhone you know.

Will Google be able to sue Apple if they ever implement multi-tasking in the iPhone?

There has to be common sense used with these kind of disputes. Android is an evolution of iPhone OS, the next step forward, just as iPhone OS was an evolution over Windows Mobile etc. I imagine Windows Phone 7 will be an evolution over Android. Everyone builds one the basic ideas of others.

Everyone builds off the basic ideas of others. So true and that's the way it should be. Copying, even stealing ideas. Not a problem.

But a patent is not an idea. A patent is not an idea. A patent is not an idea.

A patent is on a method, a process, a technique, an algorithm, a mechanism that implements the idea in a particular novel way.
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post #103 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

When you put your finger on the virtual keyboard on an iPhone, a "tab" pops up above your finger with the selected key shown larger, at which time, if you've pressed the wrong key, you can slide your finger in the appropriate direction to find the right key before you make a mistake.

If the HTC phones do that, it is a violation of Apple patents.

There are countless other examples of this type of implementation that would be the subject of the lawsuit.

Do you know if there were any other touch-screen phones (I assume they would have to use capacitance screens) before the iPhone that worked this way - where the character was recorded when you lifted your finger from the screen, and not when you touched the screen with your finger?

I don't know of any, but then again, I'm in America.
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post #104 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by shubidua View Post

BTW, did you have a look at the comments over at engadget. People are just going crazy over the fact that Apple is filing this lawsuit. I mean, ok, some of these patents look rather silly, but overall, they should protect their IP.

There are lots of Apple-haters in geekdom. Not only Engadget, but Gizmodo, and TechCrunch. It's useless to respond more than once in those forums; they're not open to listening or debating.

Your time is better spent responding in more mainstream forums (like WSJ, NYT, AllThingsD, Fortune, Alleyinsider) where some Apple-hating geeks show up to spout their hate, but where the mainstream consumers are more open to hearing out both sides.
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post #105 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I think what Apple has done here is to fire a very broad warning shot to a whole lot of manufacturers, esp. Motorola. I'll bet MOT's lawyers are poring through every word of that filing, looking for where and when the ax could fall.

Or they are the new kid in school, who became instantly popular but caught wrath of the old popular kids, so they decided that they are just gonna beat to a pulp the one who has been picking on them (read: using their IP) the most, hoping that the others then back off.

No matter what happens in life, it always be reduced to playground politics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shubidua View Post

BTW, did you have a look at the comments over at engadget. People are just going crazy over the fact that Apple is filing this lawsuit. I mean, ok, some of these patents look rather silly, but overall, they should protect their IP.

I did not. Too many juvenile emotional responses without substance. AI has its trolls but it's the best low to mid-level tech site I frequent with mature rational members.

Regarding the lawsuit, I don't care either way. Apple has lawyers on retainer and they have allocated so much budget for such fees. If it goes over that it won't be enough to affect the valuation of the company. Overall, people don't seem to care that one billion dollar company drank the milkshake of another billion dollar company. Now, if this were a class action or if Apple were squeezing start ups, then things might be different.
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post #106 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

There are lots of Apple-haters in geekdom. Not only Engadget, but Gizmodo, and TechCrunch. It's useless to respond more than once in those forums; they're not open to listening or debating.

Your time is better spent responding in more mainstream forums (like WSJ, NYT, AllThingsD, Fortune, Alleyinsider) where some Apple-hating geeks show up to spout their hate, but where the mainstream consumers are more open to hearing out both sides.

Yeah, I have observed this at well. Thats why I'm only posting here on AI, in general there is a way to get a decent discussion on a topic without to much bias.
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post #107 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Huh!? Where did you come up with that?

Because of how technical the claim gets (about how they coded it basically.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Reverse engineering isn't illegal. There's no DMCA issue involved here.

And don't you think Apple (and every corporation with a significant set of patents) has a department that takes apart and tests devices from other companies?

Oh ok, well then yeah that's how they know I guess lol. I didn't know if it was illegal, and even if it was and these companies did have some people doing it, then they wouldn't be able to act on it because they would be admitting they broke the law to get the proof. Guess that doesn't make sense.

If they decompiled the code and saw it matched their own, then boom, right there I agree HTC should be held accountable. If they are using the device and decide it works similarly to theirs, then obviously that's up for some debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

When you put your finger on the virtual keyboard on an iPhone, a "tab" pops up above your finger with the selected key shown larger, at which time, if you've pressed the wrong key, you can slide your finger in the appropriate direction to find the right key before you make a mistake.

If the HTC phones do that, it is a violation of Apple patents.

There are countless other examples of this type of implementation that would be the subject of the lawsuit.

Well see, you can get that functionality but through different code. I'm not a patent expert and I don't know if it's judged solely on the final outcome, or based on how they got there, know what I mean?
post #108 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusYoung View Post

Your lack of knowledge and ignorance given the comment above is amazing.

You do realize that HTC has a 260 Billion dollar market cap as of today.

http://investing.businessweek.com/re...ticker=2498:TT

Dude: 260 B market cap is is Taiwaneese Dollars (TWD) not US $..... Your lack of knowledge and ignorance is amazing too. And also 1 USD=31 TWD.... Make sure you know some thing before you call some one ignorant.
post #109 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Something like this, you mean?

Seems unrelated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


Hey how's Skype coming along with the 3G thing?

I haven't noticed any updates yet.

You would have to check with them. Likely still not ready.

Which of course still doesn't mean your argument at the time was any more valid than any of your other fantasies. Par for the course.

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post #110 of 128
Apple is just using HTC as a proxy to get Google. They won't sue Google directly because:

1)Google has the cash reserves to defend themselves for years in court. HTC is a handset maker, where the profit margins are razor thin. HTC does not charge customers a 100% premium like Apple does. 2) Google has their own impressive set of IP, a number of which is utilized by Apple and the iPhone. Removing all the Google applications, IP, and tools from the iPhone would restrict it even more. 3) Google would fight back hard if Apple filed suit against them and, as I said, they have the resources to defend themselves.


Corporate stiff-arm tactics at their finest (or worst).
post #111 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoo View Post

Apple is just using HTC as a proxy to get Google. They won't sue Google directly because:

1)Google has the cash reserves to defend themselves for years in court. HTC is a handset maker, where the profit margins are razor thin. HTC does not charge customers a 100% premium like Apple does. 2) Google has their own impressive set of IP, a number of which is utilized by Apple and the iPhone. Removing all the Google applications, IP, and tools from the iPhone would restrict it even more. 3) Google would fight back hard if Apple filed suit against them and, as I said, they have the resources to defend themselves.


Corporate stiff-arm tactics at their finest (or worst).

Question then becomes how long can Apple tip-toe around Google before they end up officially drawing them into it? To prove some of the software infringement claims, they'll need to point their finger at Android...
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post #112 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post

Question then becomes how long can Apple tip-toe around Google before they end up officially drawing them into it? To prove some of the software infringement claims, they'll need to point their finger at Android...

tip toe? Apple went up to the baby bear cub and kicked it and said, hey Googlebear, what do you think of this?
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post #113 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandau View Post

tip toe? Apple went up to the baby bear cub and kicked it and said, hey Googlebear, what do you think of this?

Haha!

Legally they're sneaking around Google because they don't directly name them in the lawsuit. But yes, in reality, Apple's actions do amount to kicking one of Google's little brothers in the balls.
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post #114 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I find it sad the lack of objectivity with certain types of people, especially the ones that come to an Apple-entric forum just to pooh-pooh Apple. How about at least acknowledging the fact that you don't know squat about what Apple, HTC or Palm have stolen or legally obtained.

I've clearly addressed that fact and even acknowledgment that Palm may have a better case against Apple if they tried, yet you feel need to call me and the sane people of this thread "lackey", "idiot", "dimwit" and "preschool crowd." That is a lot personal attacks in one session. Mods don't take kindly to that from fledging posters. I hope you have extra email addresses; you may need them.

objectivity? you mean like this comment? " Originally Posted by solipsism
Possibly, but it also might be because Palm hasn't been successful enough in their stealing of Apple's patents,"

now how do you know that palm has in fact stolen from apple? you don't.
i must include myself in my list of 'idiots, dimwits, and preschoolers' since i was suckered into buying an imac 24" and a 17" macbook pro. are they 'better' not really. are they way overpriced? yes.
and after using them and looking into just how Jobs and apple try and run the company i have decided to not support them anymore. i have moved to ubuntu and will get an android based phone not an iphone. but i still have a look on forums if i have issues with my Macs and to keep up with the latest 'news'.
apple has profited (as have many, many companies) from open source and lenient licensing. otherwise they wouldn't have os x. they would still have that piece of junk os 9 based thing. yet i don't see them being lenient with licensing or giving much back.
post #115 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post

objectivity? you mean like this comment? " Originally Posted by solipsism
Possibly, but it also might be because Palm hasn't been successful enough in their stealing of Apple's patents,"

You do realize that there is a record of everything posted, don't you? Editing a comment to change the meaning just isn't going to work.

Here is may original sentence with the original italicization, but text resizing is added to make it easier to comprehend.

Quote:
Possibly, but it also might be because Palm hasn't been successful enough in their stealing of Apple's patents, if they are, to make it viable.
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post #116 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2005 View Post

Just a correction. Lots of other companies have made touch-screen phones before the iPhone.

It's the multi-touch, among possibly some other things, that they haven't done.

What didn't exist as a mass market phone was anything that was entirely touchscreen. What we had where variants on the Palm/WinMo/BlackBerry model, with a keypad and a smallish screen.

If you'll recall, it was precisely this that Jobs was talking about at the roll out of the iPhone-- that all those buttons, most of which had no purpose most of the time, was a terrible UI choice, and that by making the whole phone the UI you could have model software buttons that changed depending on what task was at hand.
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post #117 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

It's funny seeing how some people react to this.

Nokia sues Apple -> "This lawsuit is without merit and Nokia are only doing this out of desperation."
Apple sues HTC -> "HTC need to stop copying Apple! This is an outrage!!!!"

Of course, everyone on here is an expert in patent law so it's cool.

Which people? I'm getting a little tired of this "some people" thing, wherein different people pressed into service to demonstrate collective hypocrisy.
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post #118 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You do realize that there is a record of everything posted, don't you? Editing a comment to change the meaning just isn't going to work.

Here is may original sentence with the original italicization, but text resizing is added to make it easier to comprehend.

yes i do realize that. you show me a post where you use a harsh term like 'stealing' and suggest apple is doing so. i also see that you seem to call most people who speak out against apple as 'odius trolls' or 'trolls'. how many times have you called people 'trolls' or insinuated that?
i wasn't trying to change the meaning just pointing out how pointed your comments are when it comes to apple vs others.
post #119 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

Multi-touch existed before the iPhone you know.

Will Google be able to sue Apple if they ever implement multi-tasking in the iPhone?

There has to be common sense used with these kind of disputes. Android is an evolution of iPhone OS, the next step forward, just as iPhone OS was an evolution over Windows Mobile etc. I imagine Windows Phone 7 will be an evolution over Android. Everyone builds one the basic ideas of others.

The idea that Android is to iPhone as iPhone is to Windows Mobile is ludicrous. The iPhone was a huge departure from smartphones in general, and Windows Mobile phones especially-- with their clumsy desktop UI metaphors and stylus driven UI.
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post #120 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Which people? I'm getting a little tired of this "some people" thing, wherein different people pressed into service to demonstrate collective hypocrisy.

It looks like some people have a problem with nebulous, sweeping generalizations.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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