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Digital rights group blasts Apple over iPhone developer agreement - Page 2

post #41 of 120
And to the horror of us all, we later find out that Apple doesn't sell Windows in their stores. And furthermore, they don't sell the Zune!?!

Apple is only doing what it thinks is best for its platform. Sorry, but Apple can kill the entire market by completely removing the ability for ALL developers to write applications for it. Or even worse, just kill the iPhone OS and move onto something else.

It would be one thing if Apple allowed iPhone OS on other manufacturer's hardware and still tried to completely control the experience, but that's not the case here. Apple produces a complete product, not a part of one combined with parts from other sources. The hardware, OS and any applications made available are part of the platform and products.

I don't understand why people have a hard time excepting that? This is not something new in the electronics industry, it's only new to computers. Nobody complained when Apple only partnered with game developers to create games for the iPod, that was even a further restriction as there was no publicly available SDK for the iPod.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #42 of 120
In other news AAPL is rocketing and I'm off to thailand to celebrate.

Some days I like Apple, other days I LOVE Apple
post #43 of 120
Once again, EFF decides it doesn't like Apple's business model. Yawn.

Apple INSISTS on dominating the market for iPhones. And iMacs and so on as well! OMG!

Apple makes its software and its hardware. That way, it can control the entire experience. If you don't like that model, get an Android.

No, says the EFF. You must jailbreak your phone to be free, and thus expose your horrible iPhone, which no-one free and good would want, to the one bona fide trojan yet found on the iPhone!

And by pulling the boobs apps, they are taking away your freedom! Yes, if you don't know what a boob looks like, and you think a "developer" should be able to sell you 4 pictures of boobs that are freely available on the Safari browser -- and more -- or else be accused of "censorship".

I took my Google Voice account, pulled a few maneuvers that Google told me about, and voila! I have Google Voice on my desktop. Why not my regular app? Because Steve said it was substituting its address book, recent calls and messages for AT&Ts, etc. But all those features are right there, in glorious HTML 5! What vile censorship! Why shouldn't Google be allowed to rewrite the interface? Steve = Stalin!

You know, they're accusing Apple of monopolistic behavior, but they don't have a monopoly. I agree, this business model is not for everyone. But if anyone has a *potential* monopoly, it's Android, which has gone for the very model that led to the Windows monopoly: we write the OS, you make the hardware to comply. Sure, it's open and all. We take the money that comes to us through the ads! And all your data is belong to us!

But if we find you misusing Google, we will ban you for life. Now that's a monopoly. If you can't Google, you're screwed.
post #44 of 120
This topic is just so worn out it's pathetic. Get it through your thick skulls that Apple (and any other company) is free to do what their want to their products. Other companies have similar draconian legalese in their contracts too. Whether it is enforceable or not is for the courts to decide.

The EFF's ego has been getting a bit inflated for a while now. They are just losing credibility in my view.

Last time I checked, there were other phones that developers can work on. You want to create iPhone apps? Well, you got to play by their rules. No anarchy or democracy allowed. You folks honestly, truly need to get over it and move on.

Apple is a corporation. Not a government. Their products are not covered by the "We the People" clause.

The tens of millions of iPhone consumers don't seem to have a problem with it. Oh wait, that's because only the tech-heads that make up a very small and vocal minority, and have big delicate egos are the one's kicking and screaming. My bad.
post #45 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Developers, including government agencies such as NASA, cannot make public statements about the iPhone OS developer agreement.

Is this really any different than a million other agreements.

Quote:
Applications created through the development kit can be sold on the App Store only.

that's the purpose of the kit so what's the big issue.

Quote:
The iPhone OS cannot be reverse engineered, and the foundation asserts this even applies to methods that courts have recognized as fair use.

the whole fair use bit was in regards to RE when you couldn't get the needed info any other way. But Apple provides developers with the information. So again, what's the issue

Quote:
Apple can remove an application at any time. In 2008, a researcher discovered a "kill switch" in the iPhone software that would allow the company to remotely deactivate an application.

again, not uncommon. Amazon had it and used it. If Apple were to use it to deactivate an application that was some kind of banking info stealing trojan they would be applauded.

Quote:
No matter what, Apple is never liable to a developer for more than $50 in damages.

do they have to be liable for any? legally? If not, then what's the big deal.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #46 of 120
Apple never claims that the iPhone OS is an open platform.
It's more like a game console than a computer.
As for "stifle innovation" goes, iPhone OS is not the only game in town.
post #47 of 120
What they are complaining about is how to get applications to a single platform. The "out" for Apple is that it does not prevent the developer from developing the same application for other platforms. A product manufacturer is free to control how other products are applied to its own platform so long as they are not preventing someone from providing the product on rival platforms Then the user has a choice as to which platform they select in order to have use of that application. I can use Google Maps on a mobile phone, on a desktop or laptop, etc, etc. I can use Photoshop on a Mac or on a WIndows PC. Neither Apple or Microsoft restrict Adobe's ability to develop their application on the competitor's platform. Adobe assumes all the risks, absorbs all the costs, and reaps all the rewards.

I think the EFF has no legal basis on which to stand for this one.
Walter Rowe Photography
Columbia, Maryland - USA
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Walter Rowe Photography
Columbia, Maryland - USA
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post #48 of 120
It's Apple;s store. They are the decider. End of story.
post #49 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

Ouch you get no more then $50 of compensation from apple for any reason. That is less then a day's worth of coding. That seems a bit unfair.

That's the only one I see as potentially worrisome, although can't think of many instances where Apple should legitimately be expected to pay damages. I can however, think of many cases where people would try to collect "damages" from Apple, perhaps it is a necessary evil.
The key to enjoying these forums: User CP -> Edit Ignore List
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The key to enjoying these forums: User CP -> Edit Ignore List
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post #50 of 120
Apple isn't even required to offer that. They could simply mandate complete indemnity under any circumstance and pay nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

That's the only one I see as potentially worrisome, although can't think of many instances where Apple should legitimately be expected to pay damages. I can however, think of many cases where people would try to collect "damages" from Apple, perhaps it is a necessary evil.
Walter Rowe Photography
Columbia, Maryland - USA
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Walter Rowe Photography
Columbia, Maryland - USA
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post #51 of 120
Sounds like much of my previous marriage...
post #52 of 120
Once again the EFF, also known as the Tin Hat Internet Society or T.H.I.S, are out in force. Protecting, uhm.... no one!

As for their effectiveness, kindly hold this post up to a mirror and check out the backwards acronym for T.H.I.S.
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #53 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

Delete QUICK before people realize you are a troll or something...

oh wait nm too late.


People with a brain will want to read the original.
post #54 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

Like many other radical groups they have crossed the line from activism to outright terrorism!

"OUTRIGHT TERRORISM."

Wow.

It must be entertaining to live in a mental space where you can freely redefine words to mean whatever you want them to mean.

I think I'm going to report my local 7/11 for outright terrorism because they were out of milk this morning.
post #55 of 120
I think I've had my fill of the EFF nutjobs for this lifetime.

Of all the change they could effect, what they chose to concentrate on is simply baffling.

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

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   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

Reply
post #56 of 120
EFF is on a funding drive.
post #57 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by danyak View Post

As an antitrust lawyer of 30 years, I agree with this post. Apple's vertical integration and the competitive advantage it gains from it and its IP is classic pro-competitive behavior. It may be a dominant player, but its market position was gained by competition, not acquisitions or anticompetitive conduct. As a dominant player, there arguably are additional constraints on its behavior - it probably cannot engage in conduct designed only to disadvantage a competitor, there must be a competitive reason for its conduct, such as maintaining an ecosystem that supports the user experiences and stability of system itself. It could get tough for Apple, but the inability of any company to achieve a monopoly and exclude competitors over the long term argues against the need for or legal basis for action against the company - unless if really goes overboard.

Cool... and I was totally talking out of my a$$ :-)
post #58 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

Ouch you get no more then $50 of compensation from apple for any reason. That is less then a day's worth of coding. That seems a bit unfair.

Everything else is expected, since apple does not like info leaking out for any reason, because information is the only reason they are able to keep a competitive edge and high profit margins over the industry.

What's the value attached to Apple's SDK? What many people are not revealing is that Apple by making a software developing system that does most of the hard work for developers, actually increased the developer community tenfold. People became developers, and made money. That would never have been possible before Apple's App Store policy.

What's the value attached to the opportunity for a worldwide retail space, with a top notch Brand, where Apple handles everything and only takes a 30% cut? Do you think an NDA is too much to pay for breaking into the software industry globally?

I don't. If they told me I had to stand on my head three days a week, I'd gladly sign on the dotted line!

Yes, Apple is in control, but they are and have been, sharing the wealth to the masses for a long time now. Every Mac OS owner has the software tools to expand the Apple ecosystem as well as their personal opportunities.
post #59 of 120
Let me get this right.

They want to blame Apple because the developers signed a contract. Apple doesn't make guns and they don't hold them to developers heads. If this were such a big deal developers would go elsewhere.
It's called an Agreement for a reason.
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[center] "Hey look, it's in the center. I am SO cool!"[/center]
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post #60 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

The EFF is barking up the wrong tree on this one.

The "open" alternatives to the iPhone aren't panning out, so Apple's closed model is vilified. Too funny.

Yet virtually every developer and their dog seems to be choosing Apple's "closed" and "controlled" model. Interesting.

First - I agree, there's not much they can do. It's Apple's product, they control it. I don't see what bitching about it will do other than bring to light how anal Apple is about controlling everything. If they don't like it, they should develop for a different platform and do their party to popularize THAT platform.

Second - Android is doing fine. In fact, last I heard, the android marketplace is the fastest growing at the moment. It's showing some serious potential, although, I also heard the Nexus One censors curse words, so they aren't exactly THAT different from Apple trying to babysit everyone.

Third - You know exactly why developers are flocking to the iphone, and it's not to put up with crap like this. It's because of the iphone & ipod touch's popularity. They are all chomping at the bit for a chance at the next popular app that goes viral. I would LOVE to invent some dopey little app like that ocarina app, and sell millions of copies for a buck or two. Was it useful? Not really. How expensive? Not very. So OBVIOUSLY the reason developers are putting up with this type of bs is so they can reach a large audience. Apple knows this, and is taking advantage of it.

It is what it is. The iphone is badass, and has the capability of being so much more with the help of third party developers, but it's not in the cards.
post #61 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Ironic then, that these same ideals are what Apple's founders and oldest users/fans embraced. It is a new world.

I agree with the exception of "founders" (except for Woz perhaps).

The Macintosh was an integrated device and Apple's been pushing that integrated model from the word go. The idea that a computer is a "device" that should be able to run whatever software the user wants to put on it is the opposite conception that I was referring to. That hardware/software separation was never really 100% true, and in today's world it's almost irrelevant to think of devices that way IMO.

The era of the computer hobbyist is long past, just as it is for the automobile and a lot of other things.
post #62 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

First - I agree, there's not much they can do. It's Apple's product, they control it. I don't see what bitching about it will do other than bring to light how anal Apple is about controlling everything. If they don't like it, they should develop for a different platform and do their party to popularize THAT platform.

Second - Android is doing fine. In fact, last I heard, the android marketplace is the fastest growing at the moment. It's showing some serious potential, although, I also heard the Nexus One censors curse words, so they aren't exactly THAT different from Apple trying to babysit everyone.

Third - You know exactly why developers are flocking to the iphone, and it's not to put up with crap like this. It's because of the iphone & ipod touch's popularity. They are all chomping at the bit for a chance at the next popular app that goes viral. I would LOVE to invent some dopey little app like that ocarina app, and sell millions of copies for a buck or two. Was it useful? Not really. How expensive? Not very. So OBVIOUSLY the reason developers are putting up with this type of bs is so they can reach a large audience. Apple knows this, and is taking advantage of it.

It is what it is. The iphone is badass, and has the capability of being so much more with the help of third party developers, but it's not in the cards.

Unfortunately, the type of bs we have to put up with is comments like this.

BTW, iPhone Developers are third-party. WTF do you think we are, fourth-party? AH.
post #63 of 120
What I do find MILDLY worrisome is when the NSA, CIA, FBI and other spooky Federal run organizations come to revamping their NDAs they often use the Apple Developer NDA and a starting point... sure they need to add a bunch of stuff about penalties of torture and deportation to their NDAs but otherwise it's a really great launching board.
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post #64 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

Ouch you get no more then $50 of compensation from apple for any reason. That is less then a day's worth of coding. That seems a bit unfair.

Everything else is expected, since apple does not like info leaking out for any reason, because information is the only reason they are able to keep a competitive edge and high profit margins over the industry.

That is $50 in damages not compensation. I don't have any issue with the dev agreement personally. I don't see how this is stifling competition. I don't care for the HTC lawsuit though, but I can understand it. This is more our governments fault for not creating a fair patent system though. Where is patent reform already?
post #65 of 120
Maybe EFF can get Al Gore to fix this? He sits on the Apple board, he invented the Internet, Global Warming, and probably the App Store too.
post #66 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

BTW, iPhone Developers are third-party. WTF do you think we are, fourth-party? AH.

What really concerns me is why we haven't heard from all of those 2nd Party developers afters all these years... I'm beginning to think it might be a foul play may be involved.
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post #67 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by justflybob View Post

..... check out the backwards acronym for T.H.I.S.

S.I.H.T.


(Perhaps you are confusing 'anagram' and 'backwards acronym?')
post #68 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I agree with the exception of "founders" (except for Woz perhaps).

The Macintosh was an integrated device and Apple's been pushing that integrated model from the word go. The idea that a computer is a "device" that should be able to run whatever software the user wants to put on it is the opposite conception that I was referring to. That hardware/software separation was never really 100% true, and in today's world it's almost irrelevant to think of devices that way IMO.

The era of the computer hobbyist is long past, just as it is for the automobile and a lot of other things.

Apple was around long before the Mac. Woz was the best example of what the ideals were at the time. Apple was created around the idea of selling into (and so supporting) the Homebrew club, of which they were members.

One could argue that Apple today, in terms of ideals, is much more like Bill Gates of the Homebrew era. The statements of today's Apple 'fans' are eerily similar to Gates' open letter to the Homebrew.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #69 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

Maybe EFF can get Al Gore to fix this? He sits on the Apple board, he invented the Internet, Global Warming, and probably the App Store too.

He sits on Apple's board.
post #70 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

I repudiate everything these software socialists stand for. Their stance that software patents are morally wrong is asinine. They blatantly push their agenda of destroying IP rights, terrorizing corporations and spreading FUD. Not to mention they sue people and companies over violations in GPL agreements even when the author does not want them to do so.

Like many other radical groups they have crossed the line from activism to outright terrorism!

fantastic misuse of the word socialist... sigh.
post #71 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by slinberg View Post

"OUTRIGHT TERRORISM."

Wow.

It must be entertaining to live in a mental space where you can freely redefine words to mean whatever you want them to mean.

I think I'm going to report my local 7/11 for outright terrorism because they were out of milk this morning.

lol! funny...
post #72 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheff View Post

Ouch you get no more then $50 of compensation from apple for any reason. That is less then a day's worth of coding. That seems a bit unfair.

Everything else is expected, since apple does not like info leaking out for any reason, because information is the only reason they are able to keep a competitive edge and high profit margins over the industry.

a day? more like an hour...
post #73 of 120
Whenever anyone puts a contract in front of you to sign, you can bet your bottom dollar that it protects their interests, not yours.

Many years ago my first ISP decided that all of its customers needed to sign a service contract. I made the mistake of actually reading it. The contract included provisions that gave them the right to terminate your service for any reason (or no reason) at any time, without notice. Since I was one of their first customers, I called up the owner and told him that we couldn't run our business on their ISP without the assurance that if we followed the terms of service (which were also spelled out in the contract) that they couldn't cut us off arbitrarily.

Of course he said they'd never do that. So I asked him why, if they'd never do that, they gave themselves that right in the contract.The explantation: "it's for your protection."

Ha, ha, ha. He couldn't understand why I didn't see his point.
Please don't be insane.
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Please don't be insane.
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post #74 of 120
As above, Apple has a right to offer the terms of their contract and no developer is obliged to accept it. EFF can pack sand here.
post #75 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

It angers me to see all these lazy bums attack Apple for being successful.

A sane response might be that of being inspired by Apple's success and to then apply one's wits to being similarly creative, innovative, and successful, too, in one's own endeavors.

But no, these are the insane reactions of parasites, scavengers, and criminals to infringe on patents and copyrights, to file frivolous law suits, and/or spread malicious and inciteful propaganda to at least attempt to defame Apple.

It's good that Apple seems fully prepared to make stands against these malicious attacks.

I think some people are being overly harsh about the EFF, I do not believe they were criticizing everything. Developers should be viewed as partners and not have everything quite so restrctive. I ask this; even with a great platform would there have been the same success without developers writing great software? I say no. Developers should be able to know their customers. I believe we have hypocrites on here because if this was Microsoft I doubt we would be hearing these same comments. I personally saw Microsoft destroy some good hardware companies in their war against unix using these same style tactics.
post #76 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Those developers chose to develop for the iPhone and willingly chose to accept those terms. The last time I checked there was no law prohibiting two parties from willingly getting into agreement no matter how one sided the agreement is.


1. A contract to perform an illegal act is void.

So there is, but this is just a FYI. Not relevant to the discussion.
post #77 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

1. A contract to perform an illegal act is void.

So there is, but this is just a FYI. Not relevant to the discussion.

What possibly "illegal act(s)" -- on either side -- are you hinting at!?
post #78 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizwarrior View Post

I think some people are being overly harsh about the EFF, I do not believe they were criticizing everything. Developers should be viewed as partners and not have everything quite so restrctive. I ask this; even with a great platform would there have been the same success without developers writing great software? I say no. Developers should be able to know their customers. I believe we have hypocrites on here because if this was Microsoft I doubt we would be hearing these same comments. I personally saw Microsoft destroy some good hardware companies in their war against unix using these same style tactics.

Then it should be easy to list and verify them for us.
post #79 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

Apple will probably pass MS in market cap within the next year or two, and yet Apple can escape anti-trust scrutiny. It's a pretty good situation to be in.

Just $50B short as of close of market today.
post #80 of 120
And the problem is?

Apple don't have to provide a development environment to anyone and developers are not forced to sign the agreement and develop applications.

If you don't like it, then don't develop for the platform - how simple is that?

There are not 'rights' here except those of Apple who quite rightly have full control over their software and infrastructure.

It is no different than the closed platforms for XBox, PS, Wii, etc, etc.
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