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Apple's iTunes LP concept hatched by labels, sales disappoint

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
The iTunes LP format introduced by Apple last year was the brainchild of record labels looking to increase sales of whole albums, but sales thus far have been soft, a new report alleges.

Paul Bonanos with GigaOM wrote Tuesday that industry sources said the iTunes LP format, in its first six months, has sold to enthusiasts, but has failed to catch on with mainstream consumers or to stimulate sales of full-length albums. Originally code-named "Cocktail," the format was designed to reverse a trend toward purchases of single songs by adding bonus content like photos and videos.

Sources also told Bonanos that the concept of iTunes LP was not Apple's. Instead, the new format came out of negotiations between the Cupertino, Calif., company and record labels that resulted in the abandonment of restrictive DRM from songs purchased through the iTunes Music Store last year. Apple allegedly agreed to create the new format as a "concession" to the music industry.

Six months after the iTunes LP format debuted, only 29 albums are available in the interactive format. The reason for so few may be the cost: The first iTunes LP editions released were said to be a $60,000 investment. One source who spoke with Bonanos said that creating the format at that price was not a worthwhile cost.

That's not to say content released in the iTunes LP format has lost money. That same source reportedly said that the initial releases proved profitable due to promotion done on Apple's behalf.

The costs associated with the fledgling format are likely lower since Apple opened up the developer kit for iTunes LP late last year. The move made it possible for independent artists to release their album in the iTunes LP format. But the market has moved in other directions.

"As it turns out, most artists and labels are pursuing a different avenue for their digital goodies: iTunes wildly popular App Store," Bonanos wrote. "Numerous artists have released lyrics, videos and other content in both free and paid apps, which also serve as channels for artist news and can be updated with new content anytime."



Apple last December offered users a free taste of the album format with a limited release of its "Holiday Sampler" featuring 20 songs. Support for iTunes LP was expanded last October, when an update to the Apple TV made it possible to play content in the living room. iTunes LPs will also work on the company's forthcoming iPad, which will go on sale April 3.
post #2 of 40
Since iTunes LP is a concept for those who are fans of the album or the artist over just an individual song by an artist, I think offering ALAC with actual studio-quality audio within the iTunes LP would have gone a long way to make the concept a desirable option for many listeners. Especially considering that the buyers likely already own the CD or iTuns songs in 256Kbps AAC.
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post #3 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Since iTunes LP is a concept for those who are fans of the album or the artist over just an individual song by an artist, I think offering ALAC with actual studio-quality audio within the iTunes LP would have gone a long way to make the concept a desirable option for many listeners. Especially considering that the buyers likely already own the CD or iTuns songs in 256Kbps AAC.

I agree and better/ more interactive content as well. Some of the labels efforts were pretty weak from what I've seen.
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post #4 of 40
Heh heh. Who would've thunk.

I am still old-fashioned and luddite. When I want a whole album, I buy the CD.
post #5 of 40
As much as I try to be behind it, I usually find myself buying the vinyl album/CD of albums I want, plus now a days, vinyl comes with a code to download a digital copy from the artists' sites.

So far, the only iTunes LP I've bought was Gorillaz' Plastic Beach, and that was only because it came with the Stylo video.
post #6 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Since iTunes LP is a concept for those who are fans of the album or the artist over just an individual song by an artist, I think offering ALAC with actual studio-quality audio within the iTunes LP would have gone a long way to make the concept a desirable option for many listeners. Especially considering that the buyers likely already own the CD or iTuns songs in 256Kbps AAC.

Nail, meet head.

As it stands right now, iTunes LP is a pointless waste of money, the bonuses just aren't worth it, and for the price of a CD you don't get half the worth of a CD.

ALAC in standard 48kHz/16 and/or HD 96kHz/24 would make them worth considering (but not necessarily buying).
post #7 of 40
Well, until recently a huge chunk of the "LPs" offered were remasters/compilations/or just stirred up old stuff altogether... a lot of people (those interested in these bands at all) already had these songs/albums. There is still not enough original new content and it is only picking up slowly.

The second problem I see is that the iTunes Store does not really present these LPs well. There is no way to tell what you are getting and the extra features are sometimes not described at all. There should at least be some screen shots and a list of included features (lyrics, liner notes, pictures, videos, etc.). People are unlikely to pay extra if there is no way to tell for what.

I still think the format is great and has a lot of potential (I really like the 5 "LPs" I bought), but as long as there is almost no selection and even what is available is not marketed properly... this won't get far. The fact that the Apple TV is really choking on some of the contents does not help either.
post #8 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by masklinn View Post

Nail, meet head.

As it stands right now, iTunes LP is a pointless waste of money, the bonuses just aren't worth it, and for the price of a CD you don't get half the worth of a CD.

ALAC in standard 48kHz/16 and/or HD 96kHz/24 would make them worth considering (but not necessarily buying).

The format needs to take advantage of it's medium. It's digital and it can be updated via subscription if need be much like a podcast, and in that, it should. If I buy a CD and it comes with a video and a new video comes out FOR THAT CD OF SONGS, I want that video. It's ONLY FAIR that I have that video as well. Make the iTunes LP format update the contents much as an interactive website would in addition to more engaging content, and then we can talk numbers. As it stands now, 60k isn't that huge of a creative investment for a good "website" which is essentially all these things are, but the websites these represent are mostly crap. The blueprint 3 one was practically terrible, while the muse one was about adequate for what I'd consider a bare minimum of cool. The behind the scenes stuff is nice, but really, the subscription model would be key.
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post #9 of 40
Record labels are such fools. They need to learn to think like a music listener.

What is the benefit of buying an iTunes LP for someone who is buying the music to listen to the music? Including extra crap isn't an incentive for me to buy an iTunes LP when what I want is the songs. Include a lossless version of the songs and I have incentive to buy the iTunes LP. Anything else is just waste.

I'm not more likely to buy a pizza if it comes in a designer box or if it comes with extra artwork. I just want to eat pizza. I don't care what kind of bogus extras the record label attaches to an album in hopes of getting me to pay extra. I want to listen to the music.
post #10 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Since iTunes LP is a concept for those who are fans of the album or the artist over just an individual song by an artist, I think offering ALAC with actual studio-quality audio within the iTunes LP would have gone a long way to make the concept a desirable option for many listeners. Especially considering that the buyers likely already own the CD or iTuns songs in 256Kbps AAC.

Yep. It's hard enough to get me to buy music from iTunes as it is. I'm not going to pay more just for some fancy graphics that I will likely only look at once or twice. As it is, 90% of the time I still just buy an album in CD form. Why? Because I can rip to Apple Lossless. A CD might be a couple of bucks more, often it's less. An album from a few months back or more might be $13 on iTunes. A used copy might be $10 on Amazon including shipping. And again, I pick the format which is more likely to be ALAC these days.
post #11 of 40
Yes, choice was pretty disappointing up to now.
But I think this is a technology just waiting for the release of the iPad. If you look at the iTunes LP page it says
"Automatic, electronic submission of your iTunes LP or Extra is scheduled for the first quarter of 2010. Until then, the submission process is manual and limited."
...right on queue for the iPad release. The iPad is also closer in size to an old LP.
The iTunes LP is supposed to be similar to the CMX (Connected Media Experience) format supported by 4 major music companies, but they still need to deliver any actual media content (which is supposed to be the second quarter of 2010).
But the really cool things is, the iTunes LP is based on web standards. It's just a bunch of HTML/CSS/Javascript (so I wonder why it would cost $60K to develop on it). Any independent artist could convert any of it's web content into an iTunes LP, and offer it for download on their site (outside of iTunes store distribution -- Trent, are your reading this?). It would just import and open up in iTunes. Add some touch based JavaScript and the iTunes LP could be much more interactive and made fun on the iPad.
post #12 of 40
I remember buying the old vinyl LP's and remember being disappointed if the album cover was just a 'sleeve' instead of opening up to reveal inside photos of the band, lyrics, etc., etc.

But that was when I was listening to the Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Doors and the Who...now I don't really give a sh*t about ColdPlay, U2 or any other of the over produced crap music that's out there! Maybe Ween, though.

Now when it comes to Movies, I most often appreciate the added material like Directors/actors discussing the film...one of the best is Ridley Scott talking about the making of Alien...In one instance, everyone was worried about how they were going to make 'plasma" for the climatic burning of the engines (pre-CGI)....he said to use water back lit with lots of bright light...pretty clever guy.

Especially, when his last movie was 'The Duellists' 17th century France! Not really a sci-fi experience.

Edit: I think I have the Director right on that.
post #13 of 40
What a surprise. These dudes really should just ask me first. Would save them a lot of mucking about.
post #14 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity View Post

What a surprise. These dudes really should just ask me first. Would save them a lot of mucking about.

post #15 of 40
Another thing with the iTunes LP is: It's not available for the artists and labels! How the heck should one submit an iTunes LP album if Apple doesn't provide you with the submission details? I'll quote my e-mail correspondance with Apple. After my label had asked them for MONTHS about this with no response whatsoever, I went ahead and sent an e-mail to Steve himself to help me direct the message to the right people to get some answers. A couple of weeks later I got this answer.

Quote:
Thank you for your message.

We are currently limited in the quantity of albums with iTunes LP that we can get live onto the store.
Our teams are working to increase this capacity, but for now this means that we are not able to get all the iTunes LPs live that we would like.
I am afraid this means that we will not be able to support your release with an iTunes LP.
Do let me know if I can be of any further assistance at all.
Best regards,
Leo

Leo Wyndham
iTunes
Head Of Music, Europe

So this is the info they should have released in the first place.

That aside.. I think the REAL iTunes LP spells in three letters: APP.
If a band can have their own iPhone App it's more value than an integrated webpage. That's what I think.
post #16 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post

Record labels are such fools... I'm not more likely to buy a pizza if it comes in a designer box or if it comes with extra artwork. I just want to eat pizza. I don't care what kind of bogus extras the record label attaches to an album in hopes of getting me to pay extra. I want to listen to the music.

This "LP" idea is what happens when business people start to horn in on the territory of creative people. In my experience, those two kinds of people are rarely one and the same. ("Never the twain shall meet.") Also in my experience, the business people bring the creative people to their knees. (Because, all-too-often, the business end of this industry is already on its knees, if not armpit-deep in the quicksand and going under fast-- EMI, Universal, are you listening, you schmucks...)

Likewise, the creative people (I include myself among them) rarely have good business sense (because, well, that crap -- while necessary -- just isn't that interesting to us). As in so many spheres of work, "creativity" has been sucked up into the "marketing" layer of the Earth's crust. Kinda makes me want to go jump in a volcano. (No dice.)
post #17 of 40
"CD-quality" audio (aka RedBook/CD-DA) is not the apogee of audio. Here is an overview of why simply going to a lossless codec over a lossy codec isn't good enough for audiophiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD#Overview
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post #18 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by palegolas View Post

That aside.. I think the REAL iTunes LP spells in three letters: APP.
If a band can have their own iPhone App it's more value than an integrated webpage. That's what I think.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. (With a hammer, of course!)

Consider the "Braid" game: it's the best advertisement in the world for the licensed music it used as a soundtrack. (I've since bought all of the artists' albums from Amazon.)

Maybe a truly more "interactive" experience is the future.
post #19 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by palegolas View Post

Another thing with the iTunes LP is: It's not available for the artists and labels! How the heck should one submit an iTunes LP album if Apple doesn't provide you with the submission details? I'll quote my e-mail correspondance with Apple. After my label had asked them for MONTHS about this with no response whatsoever, I went ahead and sent an e-mail to Steve himself to help me direct the message to the right people to get some answers. A couple of weeks later I got this answer.



So this is the info they should have released in the first place.

That aside.. I think the REAL iTunes LP spells in three letters: APP.
If a band can have their own iPhone App it's more value than an integrated webpage. That's what I think.

Yeah that is too bad about them not being able to support the format to the degree that it becomes available to all artists. Sure you could hire your own developer and make your LP. Maybe it would be easier to submit if it was already composed. As far as the app is concerned it would be a compromise. Nearly everyone has a computer with iTunes in comparison to a few million with iPhones. Plus the screen is much larger on a computer. The iPad would be nice but again you still have a rather limited audience.

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post #20 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Heh heh. Who would've thunk.

I am still old-fashioned and luddite. When I want a whole album, I buy the CD.

You can buy the whole album on iTunes for less!
post #21 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

You can buy the whole album on iTunes for less!

It depends. I've often paid the same amount for a brand-new CD as I would have paid for iTunes, locally and online.
post #22 of 40
Artists are forced to pump out a product every year. In order to do that they have to put 2nd and 3rd rate tracks on the "Album". Like Doug said previously, business is trying to force creativeness. Before, we had to buy the crappy songs along with the ones we wanted. That is no longer the case.
post #23 of 40
As they have indicated repeatedly since the internet took off, the music labels have absolutely no idea of what they are doing. While Apple's iTunes should have proved that the vast majority of people will pay for music if the option is made reasonable and cost-effective, the labels still assume that we are criminals.

It's fairly obvious that Steve Jobs and Apple wanted a simple 99c per song option with no DRM. It took them 6 years to convince them that the DRM wasn't necessary, and the only way they could get the labels to drop that was by scaling the price of songs, and making the price of an album more attractive relative to the price of its component songs.

I don't know how well this worked in the US, but in Australia this has meant that it's often cheaper for me to go to a record store if I want a whole album than it is to buy it on iTunes. This is absurd. It seems to me that the labels would prefer it if iTunes would just disappear and leave them to charge whatever they like. Of course, then people stop buying it and start pirating again, but the labels are just too stupid to understand the laws of cause and effect.

As for the LP format, who cares? It's like Special Edition versions of DVD's. I've been suckered into buying 100's of these, until finally I realised that I only watch the specials once, and I've probably paid $10 extra for them. I'm much better off buying more movies than falling for the marketing. Especially when you then have the Special Special Edition come out a couple of months later, followed by the Extra Special Edition, the Super-Duper Special Edition, the Definitive Edition, the Ultimate Edition and on and on and on and on, all designed by marketeers who just want to milk the public for everything they can get away with.

It was particularly interesting to note that online music sales growth decreased after the introduction of variable pricing in iTunes. Of course, I don't expect the labels to understand that either... :-(

All we can do now is wait for Steve Jobs (the only person in the world who seems to have the power and the inclination to fight these idiots) to, somehow, convince the labels that they're just plain wrong, and that treating consumers like bottomless wallets is counter-productive.
post #24 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudboy View Post

Artists are forced to pump out a product every year.

Metallica last released a new album in 2008. No new studio content since then and no plans until late 2011 to start writing a new one. Before Death Magnetic, St. Anger was released in 2003. So I guess this particular band isn't on the list of artists forced to pump out a product every year. However I would like to know what you consider a product...
post #25 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

You can buy the whole album on iTunes for less!

Sometimes.
post #26 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudboy View Post

Artists are forced to pump out a product every year.

Kate Bush took a break of 13 years between Aerial and the The Red Shoes.

I think the word some should be at the beginning of that sentence, and perhaps "due to the contract they signed" should be added at the end.
post #27 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Metallica last released a new album in 2008. No new studio content since then and no plans until late 2011 to start writing a new one. Before Death Magnetic, St. Anger was released in 2003. So I guess this particular band isn't on the list of artists forced to pump out a product every year. However I would like to know what you consider a product...

Maybe we'll catch a real break and Metallica will decide to stop recording permanently...
post #28 of 40
Name sources or this article is meaningless.
post #29 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

"CD-quality" audio (aka RedBook/CD-DA) is not the apogee of audio.

I, too am an SACD fan. If I could get SACD quality from iTunes, I would be buying a LOT of music...

Like SACD, the ideal downloadable format would have lossless compressed DSD-like multi-channel and stereo versions, plus a smaller compressed version for use on an iPod.
post #30 of 40
well, there's the rub.

iTunes LP is a great concept. But it went hand-in-hand with the price increases that are actually driving sales down. The price on those "special edition" albums are just too high.

Why is the industry so clueless?? LP isn't a way to grab more $$ from an album, it's a way to drive sales of the album. But they can't seem to think in terms of volume vs. up-front profit.

If iTunes LPs are going to cost more than $9.99, then yes, they should definitely come with a higher res 'audiophile' version option (e.g. 256kbs AAC), and a much more portable experience.

But the mistake has been to increase single track and album prices, and to jack the LP price into "it's special" territory, which always limits sales to a niche group... they could bust open the floodgates pricing them for $9.99... then they'd pay for themselves quite nicely.

Especially with the iPad in the mix. You could really enjoy the whole 'multimedia' experience of LP on those....

They need to stop driving their model on the fuel of greed, and just deliver good quality and a fair value. That's how you win, keep and increase business......
post #31 of 40
The music industry need to take a look at both the Publishing and Movie Industries. They've both found a way to market the same merchandise in a great variety of ways and at different price points and it seems to work quite well.


Books:

- Higher Margin Hardcover Edition Books (often release well before cheaper paperbacks)

- Lower Margin Paperbacks to cater to value buyers

Movies:

- Special Edition Movies With Commentary etc.

- Regular Edition Movies (value priced)

The Music Industry seems to have forgotten how to provided substance that buyers are interested in. The LP artwork was a okay first attempt, however what about things like. In my opinion music 'fans' are not unlike movie fans or author/book fans. Some of them can and will buy anything and everything associated with their particular interest. Look at The Beatles Anthology... In short a collection of 'crap off the cutting room floor' that was somehow spared from the dumpster. The FANS however ate it up... it was good fun listening to the band mess around and try out different takes on the same song. Are The Beatles fans so different from any other band / singer? I for one don't think so. Someone REALLY into Black Sabbath would jump at the chance to hear Ozzy and the band screwing around in the studio... Same for Sting or Queen etc etc etc. I'm quite certain if they made the effort they could find lots of content right in their own tape archives.

Music:

Singles:

- Regular Edition Tracks

- Special Edition Tracks @ 320kbs (perhaps holding back a track that would only be available on the SE Album, see below)

- Normal Album Incentives LP Artwork (this should be low priced)

- Special Edition Albums, LP Artwork, All Tracks @ 320kbs, Perhaps a bonus 'Live' track, 30 mins or so of studio mic recordings, ??? (this would come with a premium price)

What would happen if 'catalog albums' sold for $5.99 or 6.99 each, new releases at 8.99 or 9.99 for the basic album w/LP artwork and 192kbs and the SE edition LP with LP Artwork and better quality on all the tracks + Live Bonus Track + Open Mic audio + ??? for $13.99 - $14.99.

Now you've got 'catalog albums' at a really aggressive price perhaps to the point where many would pop for the whole album even if they only really like 2 or maybe 3 songs since the cost of 3 individual tracks would come to more than the album cost and once people get into the habit of buying albums again (like the good old days) and once people get accustom to buying Albums theres a chance they will continue. Digital music was initially marketed as a 'track' product so people simply aren't used to buying albums.

I dunno but it doesn't seem like music industry isn't* (edit) putting very much effort in REINVENTING ITSELF and ITS PRODUCTS!
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post #32 of 40
The 99¢ model was just perfect, didn't need to mess with it.

If some people wanted more then offer it to them, but don't count on the high rollers being the core business model.
post #33 of 40
You guys realize that if Apple were to make iTunes LP ALAC, the labels would just release more loudness-adjusted music that didn't use the dynamic range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

It's like the labels are trying to destroy the listening experience.
post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Yeah that is too bad about them not being able to support the format to the degree that it becomes available to all artists. Sure you could hire your own developer and make your LP. Maybe it would be easier to submit if it was already composed. As far as the app is concerned it would be a compromise. Nearly everyone has a computer with iTunes in comparison to a few million with iPhones. Plus the screen is much larger on a computer. The iPad would be nice but again you still have a rather limited audience.

Yeah well, anyone can do their own LP. It's just HTML, and with pretty good documentation too. I think anyone can do it. They just don't have any submission details available, other than to their own selected artists and labels at this point. It's a mess with HTML cuz you can easily make things work even though full of potential bugs. I guess Apple must approve the code manually at this point, to make sure there's nothing funny going on behind the scenes.
But the thing is: to sell a "portable band homepage" as something premium... I don't know... It's neat, but I just don't feel it's premium enough to charge for... and the question is: will it work any place other than on your computer? There is potential the day it's portable.
But it's hard coded 1280 x 720, so there's gotta be zooming involved on devices with smaller screens. Hard to read on an iPhone, if it's designed for a computer screen etc.

But get the thing out already so we can start using it!!
post #35 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post

Record labels are such fools. They need to learn to think like a music listener.

What is the benefit of buying an iTunes LP for someone who is buying the music to listen to the music? Including extra crap isn't an incentive for me to buy an iTunes LP when what I want is the songs. Include a lossless version of the songs and I have incentive to buy the iTunes LP. Anything else is just waste.

I'm not more likely to buy a pizza if it comes in a designer box or if it comes with extra artwork. I just want to eat pizza. I don't care what kind of bogus extras the record label attaches to an album in hopes of getting me to pay extra. I want to listen to the music.

Thank you. QFT and that's all that needs to be said on the matter.
post #36 of 40
Problems with iTunes LP:

1. Designed around album sales (which are dirt poor on iTunes).
2. Limited publicity/availability.
3. The words "LP" are meaningless to 75% of iTunes customers.
4. Despicably low audio quality cannot support the concept of a digital LP. Actual LPs sounded better 30 years ago.

*5. No end-user tools for iTunes LP creation. It would be nice to have a Simple-Create in iTunes to automatically create an iTunes LP for a selection of songs using a few presets AND a custom designed iTunes LP built into iDVD or some other aspect of iLife.
post #37 of 40
As Gomer would have said, surprise! surprise! surprise!

They thought if they just threw out this fluff, that people would feel ok with spending more money. The labels are just too damn greedy and can't stop wishing things would go back to the old business model where they raped the artist and jammed the public as they reaped the profits.

Kids today are not the youth of the 60's and 70's that enjoyed the album art and liner notes. Back then it was an art form in itself. Not now.

The consumer is too savvy to be forced into buying the whole CD which is filled with crap and one or two commercial tunes. They want to choose only the songs they like and not pay more than $0.99. If they don't get that, they will steal it instead. And, sales will drop.

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post #38 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I am still old-fashioned and luddite. When I want a whole album, I buy the CD.

How can you be a luddite if you're posting on an internet forum and using CDs? Aren't Luddites supposed to be wholly against all technology bar basics?

That being said if they offered more LP content than just a few bands people might be more interested. I got Muse's latest album because I was going to buy it anyway. Same with Pearl Jam's. But Muse's LP offering was awesome whereas Pearl Jam's was just the book that is a PDF download anyway.

People are either going to buy full albums or they are not and LP isn't going to change that. If the industry wants to sell more albums how about making albums filled with awesome songs instead of two or three and the rest junk?
post #39 of 40
So why not update LP format to include support for a iPhone app. This way for the artists who like to do an iPhone app to promote themselves they might be encouraged to also still use the LP feature if it gives quick access to their application.
post #40 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2oh1 View Post

Record labels are such fools. They need to learn to think like a music listener.

What is the benefit of buying an iTunes LP for someone who is buying the music to listen to the music? Including extra crap isn't an incentive for me to buy an iTunes LP when what I want is the songs. Include a lossless version of the songs and I have incentive to buy the iTunes LP. Anything else is just waste.

I'm not more likely to buy a pizza if it comes in a designer box or if it comes with extra artwork. I just want to eat pizza. I don't care what kind of bogus extras the record label attaches to an album in hopes of getting me to pay extra. I want to listen to the music.

Yeah it seems like the record companies are still desperately trying to hold on to the idea of an "album", so they can sell it to you for 15 bucks, rather than just getting 99 cents for the song you want.

People just don't care enough about liner notes and song lyrics and the 8 other filler songs on the "album" to pay extra. They want to buy the songs they like for the most part, and if they want some pictures and song lyrics and such, they can easily find that on the web.

The labels have a product that nobody wants anymore and they refuse to let it go.
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