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HP attacks Apple iPad over Flash, ARM expects 50 new tablets in 2010

post #1 of 260
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As HP attempts to push its own Flash-playing slate PC over the Apple iPad, one ARM executive said he expects more than 50 tablet-style devices to be introduced this year alone.

HP pushes Flash for its slate PC

HP this week began touting the ability of its forthcoming "slate" device to run content made in Adobe Flash -- something the iPad will not do. Though HP did not mention the iPad specifically by name, its choice of words and the specific promotion of Flash make it clear that the company is looking to take away some buzz from Apple's forthcoming device, due to launch April 3.

HP boasted that its slate PC, running Windows 7, can access the "complete Internet -- including Flash." Another note said "Access the full web and not just a part of it!"

"With this slate product, you're getting a full Web browsing experience in the palm of your hand," the company said. "No watered-down Internet, no sacrifices."

HP included a new 30-second video highlighting the ability of its slate to run both Flash and Air content from Adobe. The video shows a multi-touch interface and has a similar feel to Apple's own iPad advertisement, which debuted Sunday during the Oscars.



In addition, the company released a video on YouTube with a live demonstration of the slate's Flash capabilities. Alan Tam, senior product marketing manager at Adobe, showed off Flash-based Web content on the device, including video from MTV.com and an interactive Spongebob Squarepants game.



HP's embrace of Flash is a stark contrast from Apple, which has not allowed the Web standard onto its iPhone or iPad mobile devices. Apple co-founder Steve Jobs is even alleged to have made disparaging remarks about Flash and Adobe on numerous occasions.

ARM expects 50 new tablets in 2010

Beyond Apple and HP, the tablet market is expected to get much more crowded by the end of 2010. Roy Chen, ARM's worldwide mobile computing ODM manager, said he expects more than 50 devices to debut in 2010.

According to Computerworld, most of the hardware will be introduced in China, but new tablet-style devices will be released in all markets.

"Like many chip makers, ARM often gains an inside view of products its chips are being used in, sometimes when asked for additional engineering support and other times due to partnership programs," author Dan Nystedt noted.

Chen's comments came during a press meeting in Taipei, where ARM showed off two tablets running the Google Android mobile operating system -- one from Compal Electronics with a 7-inch screen and Nvidia Tegra 2 chips, and a smaller device called the Armadillo. Both rely on ARM cores in their chips, like Apple's iPad.

The iPad sports a custom processor known as the Apple A4. One report alleged that the CPU is a stripped-down ARM Cortex-A8 system-on-a-chip running at 1GHz. It has been predicted that Apple spent $1 billion to design its own silicon. The Cupertino, Calif., Company purchased fabless chip designer P.A. Semi in 2008 for $278 million.
post #2 of 260
All this competition is good as it will force Apple to continue to innovate. The flip side is that I wonder how many of these companies that are introducing their slate devices will be around in 2 years?
Crying? No, I am not crying. I am sweating through my eyes.
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Crying? No, I am not crying. I am sweating through my eyes.
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post #3 of 260
sadly, HP is right. from a pure web surfing experience, the HP is indisputably superior. Can't even use the Windows vs. OS X argument here. The kicker will be the battery lives. Steve claims adding flash woudl knock down the battery life from 10 to 2 hours. Something tells my the HP slate is going to have more than 2 hour battery life.
post #4 of 260
YES! Give me a full OS made for a keyboard, no matter what 'touch' controls they have it's still made to be used with a keyboard, and throw flash on it, that will be an awesome experience for oh say 2 hours till the battery is toast.
post #5 of 260
"HP attacks Apple iPad" "Though HP did not mention the iPad specifically by name"

Get over yourselves AI stop trying to over-ride the situation with these tabloid style articles to generate traffic. Stick to the legitimate content such as "ARM expects 50 new tablets in 2010".

Image and ad blocking of AI is my personal boycott.
post #6 of 260
There'll be the iPad and 49 fragmented tablets. We'll see how long many of those 49 last, given their individual uptake (and hence scale).

And, if there's touch involved, careful with the IP, HP!
post #7 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

HP pushes Flash for its slate PC

HP this week began touting the ability of its forthcoming "slate" device to run content made in Adobe Flash -- something the iPad will not do. Though HP did not mention the iPad specifically by name, its choice of words and the specific promotion of Flash make it clear that the company is looking to take away some buzz from Apple's forthcoming device, due to launch April 3.

Tell us something we didn't know. It was inevitable that one of the other players would play this angle. Though, calling the web browsing experience on the iPad "watered down" is relative. I don't consider the browsing experience on my iPhone "watered down". Before the iPhone came along, browsing the web on my BB Curve was excruciating.
post #8 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

sadly, HP is right. from a pure web surfing experience, the HP is indisputably superior. Can't even use the Windows vs. OS X argument here. The kicker will be the battery lives. Steve claims adding flash woudl knock down the battery life from 10 to 2 hours. Something tells my the HP slate is going to have more than 2 hour battery life.

I agree that it is all about battery life. I think that HP will be LUCK to get 2 hours out of it's slate running Win 7. The hardware requirements for Win 7 are just so much higher that the extra energy spent on CPU/GPU will suck the batteries dry faster than iOS.

And that is, of course, if Apple doesn't get a 'cease and desist' order against HP for infringing on the multi-touch metaphor.
post #9 of 260
The $1b figure has already been debunked. That's for developing from scratch, not plugging together purchased intellectual property (ARM Cortex A8, Imagination PowerVR SGX, etc, as Apple has done.

Sure, it's probably a fairly chunky price in the tens of millions still. Tegra is in the hundreds of millions, but that does include a large chunk of NVIDIA proprietary IP in the form of the graphics and video cores.
post #10 of 260
He in lies the problem of Apple showing and telling long before sales started. IMHO Apple should have come out of the box with a ready to sell product. The developers could have been under NDAs or in the dark if Apple really wanted to be secret, the flip from iPhone to iPad development isn't hard and if Apple had all their apps such as iWorks ready plus the 2 x App feature there would have been enough stuff to start with to keep interest until developers got up to speed. Coming out early was a gift for the wannabes and copy cats to confuse the public. Hopefully Apple will be so differentiated by the interface and apps as to make all these worries moot.
From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
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"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
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From Apple ][ - to new Mac Pro I've used them all.
Long on AAPL so biased
"Google doesn't sell you anything, they just sell you!"
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post #11 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

As HP attempts to push its own Flash-playing slate PC over the Apple iPad ...

Don't you wish they could be original instead though?

That tablet is a crystal clear violation of Apple's trademark they were granted a couple of weeks ago, it looks almost identical, especially from the front. Apple likely won't take them to court over it, but it's just so lame to copy another device so closely.

Even the Dell version (unfortunately named the "streak"), at least looks quite different from the iPad. HP was the market and design leader for cool new mobile devices not that long ago. Now they are copying Apple molecule by molecule it seems and Dell is the innovator? Yikes.
post #12 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Actually I was just given one of the new HP Tablets for work and on average it has about a 5-6 hour battery life. Its not Tablet you are talking about its the TM2T, and it works pretty well.

Its not like the iPad is going to have a 10.5 hour battery life once you turn WIFI on. WIFI alone on the Touch sucks the battery life out of the device in about 3 hours.

We routinely get 3-5 hrs of life out of our Panasonic Toughbooks here. But 1.) the toughbooks weigh in at more than 1.5# and I doubt we would get 5+ hrs of life running video (regardless of wifi). The bench mark, for me, is can the iPad deliver on the promise of '10 hours of video playback' in a 1.5# device.

I have both 3g and Wifi on my iPhone constantly. It is only a drain when I use push notification from some apps. But, yeah, if push is one, I can drain a battery in under 3 hrs.

But in active use of a single app? Wifi or no, I get 5 hrs or so on my iPhone.

And correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the current HP tablets in a $2000- $3000 USD price range? :-)
post #13 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

sadly, HP is right. from a pure web surfing experience, the HP is indisputably superior. Can't even use the Windows vs. OS X argument here. The kicker will be the battery lives. Steve claims adding flash woudl knock down the battery life from 10 to 2 hours. Something tells my the HP slate is going to have more than 2 hour battery life.

[laughing]
"Indisputably?" Are you serious? Flash makes this tablet better than the iPad?
[/laughing]

Wow, next time you try to think, reconsider. When HP gets done with this thing, it will probably have a battery life of an older digital camera. Click. Flash. Done. Reload. Adding Flash is not the end game for the iPad, sorry.
-360
post #14 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by reliason View Post

I agree that it is all about battery life. I think that HP will be LUCK to get 2 hours out of it's slate running Win 7. The hardware requirements for Win 7 are just so much higher that the extra energy spent on CPU/GPU will suck the batteries dry faster than iOS.

And that is, of course, if Apple doesn't get a 'cease and desist' order against HP for infringing on the multi-touch metaphor.

Lets ignore the battery life aspect...

Flash depends heavily on hover, and click and drag. How many flash (games esp., since this is something that cannot be done in HTML5) are actually compatible with a touch interface? Here are some of the changes Apple's flash decision has already made:

1) Major (Virgin Atlantic) sites are redoing their sites without flash, and are realizing they didn't need it and were pummeling my CPU for no reason.
2) Vimeo, Dailymotion, Youtube all have moved to encoding in H.264. They all have HTML5 betas. This is great news for my mac, linux desktop, and smartphones (remember, for all the anti-Apple hoopla, even Android does not YET have flash).
3) Smaller websites (esp. restaurant ones) are redesigning without flash, which means they are making their websites simpler, and less obnoxious.
post #15 of 260
HP's Windows 7 tablet will be running an Atom chip. That uses a lot more power than an ARM, especially an integrated ARM SoC. The battery life on HP's tablet will be a lot shorter than the iPad, or it will be a lot fatter/heavier device. Windows 7 is also a lot bulkier OS than iPhone OS, which will affect operation. And application compatibility beyond whatever touch UI Windows 7 exposes for tablets will be pointless when you're trying to use a pointer-precision UI with a fat finger.

Regarding Flash - websites will be forced to adopt HTML5 video tags if the iPad takes off, so that "flash advantage" will not be a concern by the end of the year for any site worth its salt.

And flash games - will be ported to the iPad and iPhone, either as a rewrite, or using Adobe's iPhone flash compiler technology that they've talked about. They'll also be adapted to fix the "mouse hover" problem with touch screen technology. Flash uses mouse hover extensively in practice, and the HP tablet is going to be frustrating in that regard - you'll see the content, but you won't be able to interact with it!
post #16 of 260
I don't know why HP would build and market a product around porn and Farmville.

Good luck with that.
post #17 of 260
Here come the "iPad-Killers" and the generic "competition is good" remarks.
post #18 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

YES! Give me a full OS made for a keyboard, no matter what 'touch' controls they have it's still made to be used with a keyboard, and throw flash on it, that will be an awesome experience for oh say 2 hours till the battery is toast.

Exactly. These people just don't get it.

Windows 7 tweaked to run with touch does not make for a great user experience.
Fingers just don't and can't replace a mouse for controlling Windows.

The iPad OS was designed from the ground up as a touch OS, there is a huge difference.

Just try touching some of the small targets you get on a Windows 7 touch device.
I tried a Sony Touch Desktop running Windows 7, it took 3 attempts to hit the X to close the window, as it is so small compared to the end of your finger. You either miss or get the wrong button.
post #19 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

sadly, HP is right. from a pure web surfing experience, the HP is indisputably superior. Can't even use the Windows vs. OS X argument here. The kicker will be the battery lives. Steve claims adding flash woudl knock down the battery life from 10 to 2 hours. Something tells my the HP slate is going to have more than 2 hour battery life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamIIGS View Post

YES! Give me a full OS made for a keyboard, no matter what 'touch' controls they have it's still made to be used with a keyboard, and throw flash on it, that will be an awesome experience for oh say 2 hours till the battery is toast.

LMFAO!

One person mentions what Steve Jobs said, then just a few minutes later here comes someone to REPEAT WHAT HE SAYS!

I had a good laugh at that one. Think differently indeed
post #20 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I don't know why HP would build and market a product around porn and Farmville.

Good luck with that.

Good point.

* buys HP shares *
post #21 of 260
The race to tablet supremacy will be based on price... Not Flash support.
post #22 of 260
Yo, the demo is a video! No hands on independent reviewer, etc. They only should you the cool flash /special stuff. How do you think the W7 applications look and run like? This the is big issue. Windows tablets have been out for years and they all suck. Yeah a demo using special apps looks and works cool but the other million application and OS don't.

P.S. Have you see how thick this thing is?
post #23 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

Exactly. These people just don't get it.

Windows 7 tweaked to run with touch does not make for a great user experience.
Fingers just don't and can't replace a mouse for controlling Windows.

The iPad OS was designed from the ground up as a touch OS, there is a huge difference.

Just try touching some of the small targets you get on a Windows 7 touch device.
I tried a Sony Touch Desktop running Windows 7, it took 3 attempts to hit the X to close the window, as it is so small compared to the end of your finger. You either miss or get the wrong button.

We'll see. I have a feeling it'll be ok. Click is obviously a touch of the screen, double click is two touches, click and drag is just touch and swipe, and right click is tap and hold.

The iPad will obviously be a better finger friendly experience though.

BTW, the small X button isn't an issue as you can increase it's size in the display properties. Thing I think will get annoying are checkboxes too close together.

Perhaps we'll see an era of windows programs that have a tablet version where controls are spaced apart more and with larger text (probably not.)
post #24 of 260
Hey, the HP Slate does Flash!!!

Holy crap.

Well, the iPad had a nice run.
post #25 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by tblackley View Post

Yo, the demo is a video! No hands on independent reviewer, etc. They only should you the cool flash /special stuff. How do you think the W7 applications look and run like? This the is big issue. Windows tablets have been out for years and they all suck. Yeah a demo using special apps looks and works cool but the other million application and OS don't.

P.S. Have you see how thick this thing is?

as thick as a #2 pencil.
post #26 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

And flash games - will be ported to the iPad and iPhone, either as a rewrite, or using Adobe's iPhone flash compiler technology that they've talked about. They'll also be adapted to fix the "mouse hover" problem with touch screen technology. Flash uses mouse hover extensively in practice, and the HP tablet is going to be frustrating in that regard - you'll see the content, but you won't be able to interact with it!

Yes, Packager for iPhone will let you build AS3/AIR apps and compile them down to native ARM code. There are already Flash-built apps on the App Store. It'll be interesting to see when CS5 is released what you can and can't do from an API perspective.
post #27 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by reliason View Post

And that is, of course, if Apple doesn't get a 'cease and desist' order against HP for infringing on the multi-touch metaphor.

Apple wouldn't want to get in the ring with HP. Best sticking to pushing around the small potatoes. Otherwise Apple wouldn't be pussy footing around with HTC, they'd have gone after Google.
post #28 of 260
One point seems to missed so far.... who's going to buy an HP Slate?

We've seen MP3 and video players with more features than any iPod, yet they silently disappear when sales fall flat. Only Apple has the ecosystem, dedicated developers and content distrobution system required to sustain a product through it's initial launch and into a healthy product lifecycle.

For you mathmatically inclined: HP Slate = Zune = Fail
post #29 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

Apple wouldn't want to get in the ring with HP. Best sticking to pushing around the small potatoes...

Yeah, for the same reason that Nokia shouldn't be getting in the ring with Apple...... oh wait.....
post #30 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

... Just try touching some of the small targets you get on a Windows 7 touch device.
I tried a Sony Touch Desktop running Windows 7, it took 3 attempts to hit the X to close the window, as it is so small compared to the end of your finger. You either miss or get the wrong button.

I'm starting to think that this is the primary reason behind Apple's patents on automatically resizing the window controls of a GUI for touch based input.

It doesn't seem likely now that Apple is really considering adding touch to the desktop OS, or at least not anytime soon. The patent is likely to prevent Microsoft and others from running touch modified versions of Windows 7 (useful ones at least), from running on similar hardware to the iPad.
post #31 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

Apple wouldn't want to get in the ring with HP. Best sticking to pushing around the small potatoes. Otherwise Apple wouldn't be pussy footing around with HTC, they'd have gone after Google.

Nice try, but HTC is the one monetizing the IP violation.
post #32 of 260
Did they really shoot the tablet outside in the rain?? (@ 35s).
post #33 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

All this competition is good as it will force Apple to continue to innovate. The flip side is that I wonder how many of these companies that are introducing their slate devices will be around in 2 years?

NONE of this is competition for the iPad which is substantially different from all of these other copy cat gadgets. All this crowing about the "necessity" of competition is ridiculous. Apple has never NEEDED competition in order to innovate. They've been doing it all along as simply a part of how they do business.

This HP Slate device is going to fall flat on its face due to HP's and Adobe's own arrogance in ignoring the real reasons why Apple isn't allowing Flash.

With the inevitable success of the iPad will follow an accelerated abandonment of Flash in favor of HTML5. It's not that Adobe hasn't been offered many chances by Apple to get its act together. No, it's arrogance that will kill Flash, just as the "arrogance" of the dinosaurs spelled their doom ages ago.

Daniel Swanson

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Daniel Swanson

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post #34 of 260
I really think these are very different devices within the same product category... But ultimately with different markets. Much like the typical pro/consumer market differentiation.

No big deal. Bring it all on. Some will love the iPad, some will like these.
post #35 of 260
Why do I want a small device to run Windows 7? I already have a laptop running Windows 7.

Don't get me wrong, I was hoping that the iPad was going to be a small device running full blown OS X. I won't lie, at first I was a little disappointed that it wasn't that. The more I thought about it though, I understand why Apple didn't go this route - and this is what sets the iPad apart from the HP Slate.

The iPad is designed from the ground up as a simple to use tablet device with superior touch screen capabilities. The performance will be amazing. The battery life will be amazing and the experience will be amazingly simple. Why? It was designed to be like that from the hardware right up to the software, that's why.

The HP Slate is a tablet designed to run Windows. So you'll get Flash. And Air. And all the problems that come with running a full version of Windows on a tiny, underpowered device (slow performance, short battery life, and a desktop OS with touch tacked on).

I believe that Flash will eventually become a "desktop class" standard and consumer devices like the iPad will make do without. Adobe has already released a Connect Pro app for the iPhone and it works super well. Connect is 100% Flash based on the web - so why can't this be done with things like the beloved Flash based games people are prattling on about? Can's convert Flash to an iPhone app? You will be able to do this soon enough. At Max last year Adobe showed off Flash CS5 with an option to export to iPhone (and , I bet, iPad by the time of release).

I don't think Flash will die, but it will change in some way shape or form. It will have to.
post #36 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

Here in lies the problem of Apple showing and telling long before sales started. IMHO Apple should have come out of the box with a ready to sell product. The developers could have been under NDAs or in the dark if Apple really wanted to be secret, the flip from iPhone to iPad development isn't hard and if Apple had all their apps such as iWorks ready plus the 2 x App feature there would have been enough stuff to start with to keep interest until developers got up to speed. Coming out early was a gift for the wannabes and copy cats to confuse the public. Hopefully Apple will be so differentiated by the interface and apps as to make all these worries moot.

It's funny (again) just like with the iPhone. The naysayers claiming Apple doesn't have a chance coming into the market so late. With the iPhone it was so established and entrenched with advanced handsets with companies with decades of cellular knowledge. With the iPad the claims are a limited mobile OS can't possibly compete with a desktop OS and that the market is too small to be profitable anyway. Now we have competitors scrambling to push press releases and make mockups to confuse customers.

I've used Windows XP and Office on a tablet, it's a pretty awful experience, even when using a stylus. I hope that HP is also working on an ARM-based solution using Android, because selling tablets in the thousands of dollars that use a desktop OS wasn't working for the last decade and it won't work for the next.


Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Lets ignore the battery life aspect...

Flash depends heavily on hover, and click and drag. How many flash (games esp., since this is something that cannot be done in HTML5) are actually compatible with a touch interface?

Those are some of the obstacles with Flash 10.1 for mobiles, but I think the sites will still need to get rewritten once it's released. That seems like an issue. Plus, scrolling a webpage with Flash isn't always great on a powerful system, I have to wonder how smooth that will be on a mobile browser.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

The race to tablet supremacy will be based on price... Not Flash support.

That seems pretty spot on. With the iPhone Apple when with the top end, but with the iPad Apple is starting much lower than people expected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

as thick as a #2 pencil.

I don't think a pencil's thickness varies with the shade of graphite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crees! View Post

Yes, Packager for iPhone will let you build AS3/AIR apps and compile them down to native ARM code. There are already Flash-built apps on the App Store. It'll be interesting to see when CS5 is released what you can and can't do from an API perspective.

This is a much better solution than trying to run Flash apps on an touch-based ARM or Atom system.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #37 of 260
The more I see these Slates/Tablets/Keyboard Free computers floating around with full OSes, I have to say, it does make me think Apple has got the right idea.

I never thought I would say this, particularly without it having a camera, but I kind of want one. \
post #38 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

sadly, HP is right. from a pure web surfing experience, the HP is indisputably superior. Can't even use the Windows vs. OS X argument here. The kicker will be the battery lives. Steve claims adding flash woudl knock down the battery life from 10 to 2 hours. Something tells my the HP slate is going to have more than 2 hour battery life.

I'm disputing it. Like Steve said, Flash is old technology.

So what is this "something" that told you about battery life. . .a little birdie?

Apple didn't spend millions in R&D in designing their own processors to use in conjunction with the iPad and in conjunction with their battery technology, all with the aim of achieving THEIR battery life to yet squander it on allowing Flash to have it literally drained away.

All this precious "competition" will soon learn their respective lessons as their respective gadgets flop.

Daniel Swanson

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Daniel Swanson

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post #39 of 260
Since the iPod & the iMac all the Apple doomsayers have said that each new product Apple introduced would fail for various reasons such as "too expensive, no floppy drive, no market for, or no flash". Now anytime Apple announces they are going to come out with something new EVERYONE jumps on the band-wagon and tries to copy it or release it first. Give me a break, please come up with something original of your own for crying out loud!!!!
post #40 of 260
Yeow. That Tim Burton font for Hp has got to go. It looks so 1993. The video was cool until then.

Oh, and what about the pinch gesture in the multi-touch. Isn't Apple suing on that right now? Is it possible to own a pinch gesture?
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