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HP attacks Apple iPad over Flash, ARM expects 50 new tablets in 2010 - Page 4

post #121 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

All you do is twist, twist, wriggle, and distort. I never said that the iPad was "indisputably better to surf the 'net with". That was what you said about the HP Slate, and the I would never say any of the drivel you made up to brush off my argument instead of actually addressing it. How does browsing the web on sites not using flash (which again is most of them) compare? I haven't seen a touch screen implementation that comes close to what Apple offers. Perhaps you need Flash, but that fact doesn't make browsing on the HP Slate indisputably better to everyone. Before Apple's war on Flash, web browsing was compared by means other than who has flash support and those means are still relevant today. Yes, there are Apple fanboys that are completely delusional, but that doesn't make your conclusions logical.

I never said anything lie that about the HP slate.
post #122 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Look a little closer. The HP is the normal aspect ratio, while Apple chose the outmoded 4:3 aspect ratio.

It always amuses me when I hear somebody talk about an aspect ratio as "outmoded." There are lots of different aspect ratios that are all quite common.

For example, these days movies are almost all either 1.85:1 or 2.4:1. Your HDTV at home is 1.78:1, which is equal to neither. Movies in 1.85:1 are typically cropped slightly when telecined to HD, while 2.4:1 movies are usually letterboxed.

(Oh, and computer screens? They're most often 1.6:1 these days, though you are starting to see 1.78:1 computer screens as economies of scale from HDTV LCD panel production start to really kick in.)

But the aspect ratio of a piece of paper is either 1.3:1 (for US letter-size) or 1.4:1 (for A4). Books aren't printed on either of those sizes, typically, but your average mass-market paperback has a ratio of about 1.75:1, while a hardcover has a ratio of about 1.5:1.

Apple chose a 1024x768 LCD, which has an aspect ratio of 1.3:1. This is about the same ratio as a standard sheet of letter-sized paper, and a close approximation of most printed materials.

It's also a very common size, which makes the LCD panel in the iPad inexpensive. That's part of why the iPad's entry price is half of what people expected it to be before it was announced.
post #123 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Its not like the iPad is going to have a 10.5 hour battery life once you turn WIFI on.

Maybe it won't but Apple is specifically stating that it will: "Up to 10 hours of surfing the web on Wi-Fi, watching video, or listening to music"

Check for yourself at www.apple.com/ipad/specs

Since you'll point to the "Up to" let me add that Steve Jobs has personally responded to John Breeden at CIO that it will reach 10 hours.
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post #124 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

OK. So "old technology" cannot mean "better suited for various things".

Gotcha. I Love this forum. And if anybody want to know what the word "Love" means, throw away your dictionary.

I wasn't trying to state what "old technology" could or couldn't mean but rather that your criteria for making the determination is flawed. Forget that the device has a highly responsive capacitive touch panel, it must be "old technology" because it's the wrong shape by your narrow definition. Hey, I don't agree with everything Apple does, but their choice for the screen ratio of the iPad seems logical enough.
post #125 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomfoolery View Post

It always amuses me when I hear somebody talk about an aspect ratio as "outmoded." There are lots of different aspect ratios that are all quite common.

For example, these days movies are almost all either 1.85:1 or 2.4:1. Your HDTV at home is 1.78:1, which is equal to neither. Movies in 1.85:1 are typically cropped slightly when telecined to HD, while 2.4:1 movies are usually letterboxed.

But the aspect ratio of a piece of paper is either 1.3:1 (for US letter-size) or 1.4:1 (for A4). Books aren't printed on either of those sizes, typically, but your average mass-market paperback has a ratio of about 1.75:1, while a hardcover has a ratio of about 1.5:1.

Apple chose a 1024x768 LCD, which has an aspect ratio of 1.3:1. This is about the same ratio as a standard sheet of letter-sized paper, and a close approximation of most printed materials.

It's also a very common size, which makes the LCD panel in the iPad inexpensive. That's part of why the iPad's entry price is half of what people expected it to be before it was announced.

It was also pointed out yesterday that IMAX is 22m x 16.1m for an aspect ratio of 1.37. An aspect ratio of 4:3 is 1.33. So according to iGenius IMAX is "antqiue" and an "1930s technology".
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post #126 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

And to the person that said revenue meant nothing...I'm sorry, I disagree. .... Revenue shows the strength of your sales and the market reach you have.

GM had $145Billion in revenues when it declared insolvency. I can give you many more examples.
post #127 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It was also pointed out yesterday that IMAX is 22m x 16.1m for an aspect ratio of 1.37. An aspect ratio of 4:3 is 1.33. So according to iGenius IMAX is "antqiue" and an "1930s technology".

But it isn't fully buzzword compliant, which is the main criterion.
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post #128 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It was also pointed out yesterday that IMAX is 22m x 16.1m for an aspect ratio of 1.37. An aspect ratio of 4:3 is 1.33. So according to iGenius IMAX is "antqiue" and an "1930s technology".

He'll probably reply that he saw Avatar in IMAX and that was 2.40:1.
post #129 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

What part of the web is the 'Pad superior at?

Have you used one yet? Held one yet? Heck, have you seen one yet?
post #130 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

GM has $145Billion in revenues when it declared insolvency. I can give you many more examples.

Now now, don't go clouding his reality with you little... facts!

Revenue is only interesting insomuch as tracking how it changes. Net Revenue is more interesting. Profit per diluted share would be nice. How about PPE?
post #131 of 260
[CENTER]There's a considerable difference between a fully-functioning capacitive touchscreen computer (the Hp Slate) and little more than a super-sized personal media player (the iPad), especially if they're priced similarly.

As someone who owns two Hp TouchSmart computers, I'm pretty confident that Hp will include an exceptional amount of touch-centric UI functionality over the already very well-implement touch features of Windows 7.

There's room for them all, but ultimately, a REAL computer makes much more sense for most people spending some US 500.00 to 830.00, especially given today's economy.
[/CENTER]
"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #132 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Apple does not nor does anyone have a patent on any kind of gesture. Apple does not even have a patent on pinch-to-zoom/open/close gesture. They have patents on certain touch screen UI mechanisms and designs.

Engage brain before speaking!

According to the US Patent Office Apple was awarded patent number 7,479,949 on January 20, 2009. The patent which was filed on April 11, 2008 covers multi-touch and all associated gestures such as pinch, swipe and rotation.

A computer-implemented method for use in conjunction with a computing device with a touch screen display comprises: detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display, applying one or more heuristics to the one or more finger contacts to determine a command for the device, and processing the command. The one or more heuristics comprise: a heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a one-dimensional vertical screen scrolling command, a heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a two-dimensional screen translation command, and a heuristic for determining that the one or more finger contacts correspond to a command to transition from displaying a respective item in a set of items to displaying a next item in the set of items.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/7479949
post #133 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

I never said anything lie that about the HP slate.

Yeah I forgot that they didn't originate with you, but you did support them.

Edit with quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

It makes it better at surfing the web. "from a pure web surfing experience, the HP is indisputably superior." That is what was said.

Do you dispute that?
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post #134 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It was also pointed out yesterday that IMAX is 22m x 16.1m for an aspect ratio of 1.37. An aspect ratio of 4:3 is 1.33. So according to iGenius IMAX is "antqiue" and an "1930s technology".

According to Wikipedia, Imax uses a 1.43:1 aspect ratio.

Also according to Wikipedia, the 'Pad uses the same aspect ratio as 16mm film.
post #135 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

But it isn't fully buzzword compliant, which is the main criterion.

Please don't imagine that you know which words I find compliant.

you have amply demonstrated that the meanings you ascribe to words vary greatly from the meanings found in dictionaries.
post #136 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

[CENTER]There's a considerable difference between a fully-functioning capacitive touchscreen computer (the Hp Slate) and little more than a super-sized personal media player (the iPad), especially if they're priced similarly.

As someone who owns two Hp TouchSmart computers, I'm pretty confident that Hp will include an exceptional amount of touch-centric UI functionality over the already very well-implement touch features of Windows 7.

There's room for them all, but ultimately, a REAL computer makes much more sense for most people spending some US 500.00 to 830.00, especially given today's economy.
[/CENTER]

Except the current cheapest HP tablet starts between $50 and $170 more than the most expensive iPad.

The question is not, is the iPad a replacement for your notebook. If you need a full featured device, buy one. Me, I have a full functioning (more or less) notebook. But I can't comfortably use it as an eReader (to heavy) or watch Lord of the Rings: Return of the King (to little battery life) or play Civ Revolution (for $4.99).
post #137 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

[CENTER]There's a considerable difference between a fully-functioning capacitive touchscreen computer (the Hp Slate) and little more than a super-sized personal media player (the iPad), especially if they're priced similarly.

As someone who owns two Hp TouchSmart computers, I'm pretty confident that Hp will include an exceptional amount of touch-centric UI functionality over the already very well-implement touch features of Windows 7.

There's room for them all, but ultimately, a REAL computer makes much more sense for most people spending some US 500.00 to 830.00, especially given today's economy.
[/CENTER]

You really don't understand that many people don't want the 'real' computer of which you speak.
We want the simple, slick device that the iPad is.
post #138 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

He in lies the problem of Apple showing and telling long before sales started. IMHO Apple should have come out of the box with a ready to sell product. The developers could have been under NDAs or in the dark if Apple really wanted to be secret, the flip from iPhone to iPad development isn't hard and if Apple had all their apps such as iWorks ready plus the 2 x App feature there would have been enough stuff to start with to keep interest until developers got up to speed. Coming out early was a gift for the wannabes and copy cats to confuse the public. Hopefully Apple will be so differentiated by the interface and apps as to make all these worries moot.

It doesn't matter that all the copycats are coming. In these last two months, they can get pretty close at copying much of the hardware, but they can't create software or an ecosystem to match Apple's.

Amazon, Google, and Apple have shown that a key to success is usability, which includes convenience. Apple's iTunes, App Store, and soon-to-arrive iBookStore have provided a very easy 1-click way to access media - both content and apps. Retail Apple Stores have provided a friendly way to get accessories, and to access technical help and repairs. What do these others have? Amazon has a website (not an app) to purchase downloadable content (music, video, books). There's some smaller outfits but they're far from being in the game. Google has an App Marketplace but nobody else is relevant yet in the App game.

For OS/UI software, these other copycats will have to use Android, Chrome (not yet here), Windows 7, Windows Mobile 7 (not yet here), or create their own. Some of these will offer additional features, but none have the responsive multi-touch UI and ease of use of iPhone OS. Studies are already showing that the touch-sensing of the iPhone OS is better than other smartphones - part of this might be hardware, but a chunk of it is the software (or firmware).

Apple is also using its cost advantage for its in-house developed CPU chip, its component volumes (esp for Flash RAM), and its already-built Retail Stores to force competitors to either price their tablet about the same, or to generate very little profit if they aim to beat the iPad on price. Given Apple's brand reputation, they have to beat by at least $100 (or20%) for it to factor into a purchase decision.

Apple doesn't care that a consumer may first try one of competitor's products because they know that when the consumer becomes disappointed, he/she will turn to Apple.
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post #139 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

GM has $145Billion in revenues when it declared insolvency. I can give you many more examples.

Palm is taking in $300M in revenue but with a net loss of $150M per quarter and a market cap under $950M I think Chapter 11 is likely to occur this year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

But it isn't fully buzzword compliant, which is the main criterion.

He's really gone off the deep end with the iPad. It's one thing to say that he thinks that Apple didn't use the best solution, but it's another to say that they are wrong because it's not as fashionable.

I wish more companies thought through their products usability more than just looking for the most technology jargon they can slap on the box and spec sheet. At least then we'd have netbooks with the more usable 4:3 ratio in the 10" size that the foolish 16:9 ratio.
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post #140 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Have you used one yet? Held one yet? Heck, have you seen one yet?

One need not hold one to know that it will not work for the vast majority of web video.
post #141 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

Thank you. I don't know why more people can't understand this. There are still people actually saying "Dude, there were touch screens around before Apple's iPhone. Blah, blah, blah".
I don't even try to respond to them anymore. Just have to .

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/7479949

Read and be educated....
post #142 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

...Also according to Wikipedia, the 'Pad uses the same aspect ratio as 16mm film.

Ok, so it does. 16mm film is approximately 1.36:1 (according to Wikipedia) and the iPad is reportedly 1.33:1. No one is disputing that it isn't 4:3.
post #143 of 260
Okay, fun times. time for a little FUD-patrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Flash depends heavily on hover, and click and drag.

This one's pure FUD that's already been debunked (see http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/201...d-touch-input/). Mouse-overs work fine on mobile, and there's no difference in the challenge between HTML-mouseovers and Flash-mouseovers. At the same time Flash Player 10.1 includes multi-touch support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

1) Major (Virgin Atlantic) sites are redoing their sites without flash

If you read the actual source from the Virgin America (not Atlantic) CTO, they're re-doing the ads on their homepage in HTML, not the entire site (see: http://www.virginamerica.com/va/trav...emap_right_bar as one example of flash still there). And honestly, HTML can have the "banner-ad" space... I'm sure no one at Adobe is losing any sleep over that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

2) Vimeo, Dailymotion, Youtube all have moved to encoding in H.264. They all have HTML5 betas.

The only reason they are even able to encode in h.264 is because flash supports h.264 streaming. As for the HTML5 betas, it's all for user-produced content. Nothing that has ads (read: requires DRM) is available in the beta at youtube. Furthermore, for an interesting read on HTML5 video and performance, see an objective article over at ReadWriteWeb (http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives..._new_tests.php)... turns out "HTML5" consumes more CPU than flash in many instances (the only reason on the Mac that flash is more CPU intensive than HTML5 in safari, Apple does hardware acceleration via Quicktime in Safari, but will not give Adobe access to the API's required to similarly use hardware acceleration... that's why HTML5 is also CPU intensive on Firefox/Chrome (no hardware acceleration access) but Flash on Windows (with Hardware acceleration) uses the least amount of CPU of the bunch (include Safari HTML5 on Mac).
post #144 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

HP has been using Touch for a long while now their TouchSmart computers have been around for a while. They also use BumpTOP which is actually a pretty cool 3D desktop, its suppose to be coming to the Mac soon. If fact it looks like it is already available for the Mac.

http://bumptop.com/

TOUCH has been around for a very long time.

MULTI-TOUCH is Apple's patent.
post #145 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

One need not hold one to know that it will not work for the vast majority of web video.

Who cares!
post #146 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr View Post

TOUCH has been around for a very long time.

MULTI-TOUCH is Apple's patent.

Well said :-

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/7479949
post #147 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

He in lies the problem of Apple showing and telling long before sales started. IMHO Apple should have come out of the box with a ready to sell product. The developers could have been under NDAs or in the dark if Apple really wanted to be secret, the flip from iPhone to iPad development isn't hard and if Apple had all their apps such as iWorks ready plus the 2 x App feature there would have been enough stuff to start with to keep interest until developers got up to speed. Coming out early was a gift for the wannabes and copy cats to confuse the public. Hopefully Apple will be so differentiated by the interface and apps as to make all these worries moot.

Apple showed off the original iPhone 6 months before it hit the market. Three years later, competitors still can't match it. Hell, competitors are still struggling to catch the (relatively) simpler iPod... 9 years later.

The same will be true of iPad. Just because you show someone how its done doesn't mean they can mimic the result in a month... or even years, apparently.

Thompson
post #148 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

He's really gone off the deep end with the iPad. It's one thing to say that he thinks that Apple didn't use the best solution, but it's another to say that they are wrong because it's not as fashionable.

I never said anything like that. You are the one who argued that the regular modern aspect ratio is used merely to be fashionable.

You regularly seem to confuse me with some sort of fantasy figure.
post #149 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

I never said anything like that. You are the one who argued that the regular modern aspect ratio is used merely to be fashionable.

You regularly seem to confuse me with some sort of fantasy figure.

antique
not fashionable
1930's technology
everybody else is using 16:9

Seriously?
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post #150 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post

The race to tablet supremacy will be based on price... Not Flash support.

I don't think so.... if you look at how Apple conquered the MP3 market is certainly wasn't with price. It was ease of use, unheard of capacity, size and visual design.

The one thing Apple has going for it that nobody else can touch is an ARMY and a half of developers who are all coding apps right this second for the iPad.

What does this new HP tablet run as its OS? (god help them if its windows) Then again what else could it run? The only tablet that Apple needs to be remotely worried about is one running Android... Perhaps then Apple would find it a mildly annoying competitor.
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post #151 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

Nice try, but HTC is the one monetizing the IP violation.

On most HTC android devices, that is true.

Bug Google is also making revenue off of Nexus One (built by HTC).

Nevertheless, I agree that HTC is the target that makes most sense... and not jsut because they are "small potatoes" as the other poster explained.

Thompson
post #152 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

I watch video on news sites every day. If the 'Pad can't handle daily web surfing tasks, it is fatally flawed. Indeed, for most non-geeks, the 'Pad will suck to surf the 'web.

"Honey, why can't I get that website?"

"Oh, that's not a bug, it is a feature. You don't want to see that website. They sholuld have used H.236XZ technology, but me and Steve don't like Adobe, so you're better off this way. We are fighting a holy war here against Adobe, because they are lazy!!"

"Ummmm, it works fine on Sally's HP tablet. I thought you made me get this one because it is indisputably better to surf the 'net with?"

"Naw, only geeks care about flash! You are better off without it!"

"This is the last time I ever let you talk me into getting an Apple anything..."


"Honey, why do my arms ache and my hands get hot with the Slate, and the battery only last for a few hours?"

"Oh, it is a feature. They sholuld have used A4 technology, but HP are tied to Microsoft and Flash, so you're better off this way. We are fighting a holy war here against Adobe, because they are lazy!!"

"Ummmm, Sally's iPad is so much lighter, thiner and it does not get hot when she uses it. The battery lasts ages as well. I thought you made me get this one because it is indisputably better."

"Naw, only practical and sensible people care about design, weight, temperature and battery life! You are better off with this!"

"This is the last time I ever let you talk me into getting an HP anything..."
post #153 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

He's really gone off the deep end with the iPad. It's one thing to say that he thinks that Apple didn't use the best solution, but it's another to say that they are wrong because it's not as fashionable.

I wish more companies thought through their products usability more than just looking for the most technology jargon they can slap on the box and spec sheet. At least then we'd have netbooks with the more usable 4:3 ratio in the 10" size that the foolish 16:9 ratio.

Speaking of which, why do Windows PC makers slap those buzzword stickers all over their products? And why do so many buyers just leave them on, implying that if they're peeled off, the computer might no longer function? I won't believe that Apple makes real computers until they start plastering them with buzzword stickers.
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post #154 of 260
Q1: Has anyone here gone to an HP forum simply to trash talk HP's efforts the way iGenius is here trash talking the iPad and every other Apple product?

Q2: Since I tend to involve myself with normal, intelligent, sane people can anyone explain to me the mentality behind his comments on this forum?
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post #155 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

One need not hold one to know that it will not work for the vast majority of web video.

There is more to the web than video, and the most common video (you tube) is supported. You can't make a blanket statement about something based on one aspect of the experience. How do you scroll straight down a page on a touch screen? If you drag your finger down, you will get some side to side movement in because you can't trace a perfectly vertical line. Safari on iPhone OS locks your scrolling in to one direction if you start either horizontal of vertical so you don't get any unwanted side to side motion. Is there a better way of selecting text on a touch screen than what is provided in iPhone OS? Is there a better implementation of a double tap to zoom in on exactly what you want to see feature (with pinch to zoom as a reliable alternative)? Some of these things will matter less on the larger 10 inch screen, but they will still be relevant. It seems like the iPad will actually be pretty good at browsing the web. Would I like flash on the iPad? Yes, as an option. Do I think that the lack of flash severely cripples the web browsing capabilities of the device? Not in the least, I can't wait to try one.
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post #156 of 260
Verdict confirmed!
post #157 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Q1: Has anyone here gone to an HP forum simply to trash talk HP's efforts the way iGenius is here trash talking the iPad and every other Apple product?

Q2: Since I tend to involve myself with normal, intelligent, sane people can anyone explain to me the mentality behind his comments on this forum?

It's called jealousy, very simple.
This must be his life......
post #158 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonder View Post

According to the US Patent Office Apple was awarded patent number 7,479,949 on January 20, 2009. The patent which was filed on April 11, 2008 covers multi-touch and all associated gestures such as pinch, swipe and rotation.

That isn't a patent of the idea of using gestures. That's Apple's patent for iPhone related UI designs covering its techniques for fixed 1D vertical/horizontal scroll with sloppy gesture trajectories, 2D translation, frame or within frame scrolling, and a yet to be used 2-touch rotate to rotate stuff.

Another company can come in and implement all the same gestures in a different manner and be perfectly fine. For instance, if I wanted to zoom an image, I can use a control overlay design. Eg, double tap, a semi transparent control overlay in the form of square pops up. The corners and sides are hot or touchable. I then pinch, rotate or translate. Patent 7,479,949 will not cover this design even though it uses a 2-touch pinch/expand.

For translation of frames, look the home-screen pages or list scrolling, one can come up with a different touch-based UI design that uses the same gestures but uses a different UI convention.
post #159 of 260
I kinda zoned out while watching the video, but I did see towards the end the guy rotate the slate with the camera showing it from the back point of view. Did any of the other part of the video show dynamic display rotation as the slate device was re-oriented 90 degrees? That seems like one of the bigger subtle advertisement points that Apple is presenting for the iPad. I was kinda wondering how friendly the Win7 system would be to changing the display as the device got rotated (or NOT at all).

Oh, and I was zoning out after I saw the Windows-on-a-touch device being demoed and wondered which icon at the bottom would be the virus software running in background (gotta have that multitasking for THAT!). Just not having to fuss over virus software is a major positive for the iPad.
post #160 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

Good point.

* buys HP shares *

Deride if you must, but HP's stock has being doing better than Microsoft's.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

 

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