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HP attacks Apple iPad over Flash, ARM expects 50 new tablets in 2010 - Page 7

post #241 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

I think you'll find the opposite in fact true. While most people likely don't even know what flash is, they'll miss it when it's gone.

Fact - people watch video on iPlayer, Hulu etc.

Fact - people play Facebook games

Fact - most embedded video is in flash


Like it or not, flash is totally essential to use the web as it stands today without huge compromises. The iPad is just one big compromise, and so I believe, will be a failure.

Only geeks care about flash. Go geek out with windows, which is one big virus!
post #242 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

yeah but the problem is these other devices will play xvid, and many other free codecs or watching the same shows sold on iTunes but for free. This is a big deal to a lot of people.

This is a good point. I've identified two reasons why the 'Pad is unacceptably compromised for me: It will suck to have huge holes in news stories where the video is supposed to be (mudslides work better in video than in text) and it would suck to have an aspect ratio that letterboxes videos into a tiny image.

The lack of common codecs is another huge problem, but I don't even get that far because of the antique aspect ratio of the screen.

I have another use for a tablet computer too: music. The codec problem rears its ugly head in this area of entertainment as well. In order for me to have my music on the 'Pad, it will be necessary to downgrade the content to MP3 format from .flac. This is unacceptable in a computer. I do it for my iPhone, but that's just a little pocket toy. If I spend bucks on a tablet computer, I want it to be a computer, and not a big toy.

And what does the 'Pad do for audio output anyways? Does it have good speakers? Does it have a headphone jack? Is there any way to play music over the home audo system wirelessly?
post #243 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Only geeks care about flash. Go geek out with windows, which is one big virus!

I had no idea there were so many geeks in the world, I mean, we're SURROUNDED by them! The next time I see someone watching iPlayer HD I shall shake their hand, as a fellow geek.

You might also might want to try using Win 7 for a week or two. Funny thing, it's surprisingly great. Fast, stable, 64-bit. The only blemish is iTunes, which is one of the worst Windows applications available. But hey, I guess you can't have everything.
post #244 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post

Counterfact - iPlayer works fine on iPhone.


Counterfact - And they rely on keyboard and hover. Which will not work on a touchscreen. Flash or no flash.


But if they want to access the mobile audience, they will have to offer alternatives.
So we are already seeing YouTube and Vimeo and others offering h264 streaming.
These content makers are keen to attract a mobile audience. And Flash was engineered a long time before the hardware that mobile devices use.

C.

iPlayer works in it's lowest quality version on an iPhone, with a dumbed down interface. Sure, the BBC could retool it for larger screens and support HD, but why should they? Who will pay to support an ultra niche device?

Maybe we should all try playing flash games with a touch screen before judging how well they play.

Flash will be on Android and Windows Phone 7 before the end of the year, and I believe it's also on some sort of Nokia brick. Apple are the only ones being stubborn. Android is now a viable alternative, and the Nexus One is a far superior piece of hardware to a 3GS. People will start to move, I know I'm thinking of it.
post #245 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

There are times I wish I were able to live in a world of delusion. It seems happier there.

You appear to be in it.
post #246 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post

I think you'll find the opposite in fact true. While most people likely don't even know what flash is, they'll miss it when it's gone.

Fact - people watch video on iPlayer, Hulu etc.

Fact - people play Facebook games

Fact - most embedded video is in flash


Like it or not, flash is totally essential to use the web as it stands today without huge compromises. The iPad is just one big compromise, and so I believe, will be a failure.

The iPlayer 'Fact' is actually incorrect.
There is an iPhone App for iPlayer which will run on the iPad, making iPlayer just as accessible.
post #247 of 260
It's really quite silly to think that new Mobile Devices which create Large New Audiences should be limited to old technology, rather than expecting technology to start catching up.
post #248 of 260
I think we shall wait until both devices are launched and then later versions will be available. For now all we can do is to argue why one is better than the other. For example HP says they have the table ready since 2008. Have a look here:

http://www.thehdstandard.com/general...pete-the-ipad/

Catalin
Professional Streaming Consultant
post #249 of 260
If the "complete Internet" means bandwidth-sucking, CPU-hogging, battery-draining, system-crashing, content-obscuring and obnoxious advertisements, I'll take the "incomplete Internet". Thanks.
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post #250 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Does it have a headphone jack?

Yes.
http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/
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post #251 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmkirsch View Post

... if I was smart enough to figure out how to get Flash OFF of my computers I would do so in a, well, uh, FLASH!

http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/
You're welcome.
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post #252 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

I have another use for a tablet computer too: music. The codec problem rears its ugly head in this area of entertainment as well. In order for me to have my music on the 'Pad, it will be necessary to downgrade the content to MP3 format from .flac. This is unacceptable in a computer. I do it for my iPhone, but that's just a little pocket toy. If I spend bucks on a tablet computer, I want it to be a computer, and not a big toy.

And what does the 'Pad do for audio output anyways? Does it have good speakers? Does it have a headphone jack? Is there any way to play music over the home audo system wirelessly?

If you are going to transcode for use on an iPhone you should use AAC. What is your definition of 'toy'? I doubt you could hear a difference between a 224 kbs AAC file played from an iphone via a dock and the original .flac played from anything you care to nominate.

If you want a lossless format on an iPhone or iPad, just transcode the .flac to Apple Lossless.

I am pretty sure you can stream from an iPhone/iPad to a home audio system using an airport express. I think it might even stream using Apple lossless.
post #253 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

SRSLY?]

Yes. Not close. Look:

HP Slate


Apple iPad



The design language is totally different in basically all respects. Head-on shots, yeah sure, they look similar. But look at them in person, it will be very easy to differentiate the two.

Now, if you want a copy-cat, look at the HTC Legend. The design language in the HTC Legend basically screams Apple and is a copy of Apple's aluminum unibody design language. If it wasn't for the black plastic inset for the camera, it'll be even closer, but as it is, it copies Apples aluminum unibody design language pretty well.
post #254 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

Apple can easily sort this one out while keeping iPhone OS.

The important question is 'will they?'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

Sync the iPad via the web. Allow syncing your iTunes library with your online account, and then just sync iPad with your account.

That would work for itunes purchases only. >100MB uploads are tricky for most home connections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

What on earth makes you think the HP slate would do better in real world usage?

It's lighter and thinner than a convertible and it can do portrait mode unlike a netbook and it's faster to go into portrait mode than a convertible. Hardware keyboards are as important to the slates as they are to the iPhone/iPad. If you absolutely need one, you can use an external keyboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna

If they sell like crazy, all those sites that are so dependent on flash will have to consider if missing out on that market is worth it.

It won't sell more than the iphone, which was 6 million in the first year. I personally think it will be around the 3 million mark. The iphone/ipod comprise 70 million devices and websites aren't ditching Flash in huge numbers to accommodate them - just a handful of large sites. Nine of the top ten smartphones will support Flash and that number easily rivals Apple's products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shrike

If one has lots of CDs and DVDs and other data one wants to put on an iPad, it needs a hub computer. The HP Slate needs a hub computer to do that too and is in the exact same boat as an iPad.

Two things wrong there. First of all, the HP Slate doesn't need an external computer, merely an external drive. DVD encoding may certainly take a while but if it has the 9400M, it can be hardware-accelerated or even use a USB encoder like Elgato H.264. Secondly, the iPad also has a requirement that the video and audio be in Apple-supported formats whereas the HP Slate will support any video format and it does not need to be synced via itunes.

Quote:
shrike]Erase and reinstall of the OS and restore of all your content will be manageable for most folks with iTunes. HP Slate will not. How are people going to update the OS on the HP Slate?

Surely that would mean they are incapable of doing that on any computer but even an iPad requires one so they're screwed in all cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu

Fact - most embedded video is in flash

I don't get why Apple don't just say to Adobe to build a lite player that only does the video decoding and Apple simply tacks on standard media controls then send function calls to the media display classes. Video is the single biggest reason for Flash. Flash games generally suck.
post #255 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui View Post

I am pretty sure you can stream from an iPhone/iPad to a home audio system using an airport express.

I am pretty sure you can't.
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post #256 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

Two things wrong there. First of all, the HP Slate doesn't need an external computer, merely an external drive. DVD encoding may certainly take a while but if it has the 9400M, it can be hardware-accelerated or even use a USB encoder like Elgato H.264. Secondly, the iPad also has a requirement that the video and audio be in Apple-supported formats whereas the HP Slate will support any video format and it does not need to be synced via itunes.

The "supports any video codec" feature, I don't see of any importance whatsoever. If you have an iPad, you transcode to the supported format. If you want to use it to create something, you do it in the supported format. If you want to do it multiple formats, it would be time to use a desktop or another computer. I don't see it as an appreciable minus on its feature list. The use cases just get smaller and smaller, and Apple design philosophy is to ignore the smaller use cases.

The external DVD drive, yup, I missed that. But. Really, the scenario seems rather pathological to me. A usage scenario where you are using a "slate" device as a video viewer where-in you are putting ripped and transcoded DVD movies/video on to it sounds not good to me. Really, what's the benefit? It would simply be better to use a hub computer for this where storage and computational power are 10x bigger.

I see it being done for CDs, maybe.

Quote:
Surely that would mean they are incapable of doing that on any computer but even an iPad requires one so they're screwed in all cases.

The hub computer has DVD install disks, with backup solutions. I think it's a fairly manageable thing to stick the install disk in and follow the options. For the HP Slate, how do you think it is going to be done? One imagines it can be done by an external DVD drive and a router/network backup. Once one starts entertaining solutions like that, it just gets more and more complicated.

Quote:
I don't get why Apple don't just say to Adobe to build a lite player that only does the video decoding and Apple simply tacks on standard media controls then send function calls to the media display classes. Video is the single biggest reason for Flash. Flash games generally suck.

I think it is fairly evident that Apple doesn't want Adobe controlling the de facto standard video format and have control of "Internet" application platform.
post #257 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

It's lighter and thinner than a convertible and it can do portrait mode unlike a netbook and it's faster to go into portrait mode than a convertible. Hardware keyboards are as important to the slates as they are to the iPhone/iPad. If you absolutely need one, you can use an external keyboard.

Sorry, my point was that the Lenovo looked really good on paper, comes from a reputable company, has prior experience with tablets, has highly regarded netbooks and provided a so-so tablet solution.

Quote:
Two things wrong there. First of all, the HP Slate doesn't need an external computer, merely an external drive. DVD encoding may certainly take a while but if it has the 9400M, it can be hardware-accelerated or even use a USB encoder like Elgato H.264.

A slate of that size is not likely to have a 9400M but something like the GMA 500 paird with a Broadcom Crystal HD Accelerator as conjectured by Engadet. The better GPUs (even an older integrated one like the 9400) are likely too CPU constrained by Atom to be very worthwhile.

Eh...I think that you'll find that the iPad is snappier than the HP Slate and does mobile computing far better than a Win7 in a slate will. The only MS mobile computing product I'm interested in is Courier and right now that's concept video.

Win7 feels like it would be as constrained in a slate format as XP did and I have enough windows based slates littering my office. Hmmm...I can even install Win7 on them if I were so inclined.
post #258 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

The "supports any video codec" feature, I don't see of any importance whatsoever.

Realplayer video is a pretty difficult format to convert as is WMV 9+. For people (especially Windows users) who need to view their existing digital collection of movies, it's more difficult than just having the playback support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Really, what's the benefit? It would simply be better to use a hub computer for this where storage and computational power are 10x bigger.

Some will buy slates as their only machine and 160GB storage is decent for ripped movies. Performance isn't an issue with something like the Elgato H.264 encoder as significant parts of the encoding is done by the USB stick, not the internal CPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

The hub computer has DVD install disks, with backup solutions. I think it's a fairly manageable thing to stick the install disk in and follow the options. For the HP Slate, how do you think it is going to be done? One imagines it can be done by an external DVD drive and a router/network backup. Once one starts entertaining solutions like that, it just gets more and more complicated.

Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Yeah it's not ideal but netbooks typically don't have optical drives nor does the MBA. Upgrades can be done online but moving to a new OS would require an external drive. I don't think major OS upgrades are all that common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

A slate of that size is not likely to have a 9400M but something like the GMA 500 paird with a Broadcom Crystal HD Accelerator as conjectured by Engadet. The better GPUs (even an older integrated one like the 9400) are likely too CPU constrained by Atom to be very worthwhile.

The Joojoo has the 9400M. It is a larger slate but 9400M can fit in smaller machines - the Joojoo internals are messy and there's a huge battery pack. The 9400M isn't constrained by the Atom much. A 9400M netbook plays Call of Duty 4 pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yvSyyVm3Dk

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

I think that you'll find that the iPad is snappier than the HP Slate and does mobile computing far better than a Win7 in a slate will.

I agree iPad is snappier and the gestures better but it's only running mobile apps and stats show that people rarely use the 3rd party apps from the App Store. The main iPad uses will be movies, books and games and the PC slates cover those aspects equally well if not better than the iPad.
post #259 of 260
The battery life on the HP tablet is much shorter than the iPhone, and it will be a lot of thicker and heavier unit. Windows 7 is also much bulkier than OS iPhone OS that affect the operation. And application compatibility across whatever touch UI for Windows 7 sets tablet is useless if you try to use a pointer-precision UI with a fat finger.
post #260 of 260
So, Wait, forget all this stuff about Flash for a moment. When I turn on an HP slate and try to configure my network settings, screen brightness, email accounts or any of the other myriad of Windows 7 related settings am I going to face standard Windows 7 dialog boxes, with their tiny checkboxes, radio buttons, edit fields, OK/Cancel buttons, etc?

All these videos of the Slate seem to show either a skinned interface or a touch application running in the foreground, but I imagine I would still have to go (frequently) into the land of standard Windows UI to get some basic things done. And this is what I think is the failing of all the non-iPad devices: underneath the (very shallow) surface layer is a very standard, non finger-friendly, dektop-class UI that was meant to be driven via a keyboard and mouse.

Can you imagine trying to run Outlook, Word, or Excel on one of these devices using your fingers only? Or is MS going to come up with touch versions of these apps like Apple has done ?
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