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HP attacks Apple iPad over Flash, ARM expects 50 new tablets in 2010 - Page 2

post #41 of 260
Good riddance, Flash. Flash discriminates against disabled people, amongst other serious problems such as crashing Macs on a regular basis. More details here:
http://www.flashsucks.org
post #42 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

Nice try, but HTC is the one monetizing the IP violation.

not trying anything... but I think you're being a bit naive
post #43 of 260
The significance of HP's marketing strategy is that they are chasing the leader. Even with the product not yet on the market, the leader is Apple. It's a very nice problem to have.
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post #44 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogun View Post

Oh, and what about the pinch gesture in the multi-touch. Isn't Apple suing on that right now? Is it possible to own a pinch gesture?

Apple does not nor does anyone have a patent on any kind of gesture. Apple does not even have a patent on pinch-to-zoom/open/close gesture. They have patents on certain touch screen UI mechanisms and designs.
post #45 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknick View Post

Can's convert Flash to an iPhone app? You will be able to do this soon enough. At Max last year Adobe showed off Flash CS5 with an option to export to iPhone (and , I bet, iPad by the time of release).

I don't think Flash will die, but it will change in some way shape or form. It will have to.

Adobe made mention of not having iPad resolution support at the start but will have it in a subsequent update. I believe the details of the iPad and for Adobe the late availability of the SDK with iPad support didn't give them enough time to include exporting for iPad in the initial release of Packager for iPhone.
post #46 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

I'm disputing it. Like Steve said, Flash is old technology.

So what is this "something" that told you about battery life. . .a little birdie?

Apple didn't spend millions in R&D in designing their own processors to use in conjunction with the iPad and in conjunction with their battery technology, all with the aim of achieving THEIR battery life to yet squander it on allowing Flash to have it literally drained away.

All this precious "competition" will soon learn their respective lessons as their respective gadgets flop.

You're disputing it, but changing the argument. You CANNOT argue that flash is not currently used on websites. The iPad will not display flash, therefore it is an incomplete experience when viewing the web. You can argue all you want that it's dying tech, but it irrelevant as an argument to my statement.

And Apple didn't develop anything. I swear it took more R&D for them to figure out how to stamp a pretty little apple logo on the chip than anything else...
post #47 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

He in lies the problem of Apple showing and telling long before sales started.

Well, Apple really doesn't have a choice about that. It's an FCC issue. The reason both the iPhone and the iPad were announced before they could ship was because Apple had to submit them for FCC approval, which is a public disclosure process. They can't both keep a product under wraps and submit it to the FCC at the same time, so they just announced them when they were sending them in to the FCC.

It's true that doing this gives Apple's competition the opportunity to sweep in and scoop them, as HP is clearly trying to do here. But on the other hand, it gets Apple out in front and lets them capture the public interest. The iPad was on the front pages of newspapers when it was announced, for cryin' out loud. It made the front pages of CNN's, The New York Times' and the Washington Post's Web sites.

So I really don't know whether early announcement is a net gain or loss for Apple. It could go either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

That tablet is a crystal clear violation of Apple's trademark they were granted a couple of weeks ago.

Apple got a trade dress trademark for the iPad? I totally missed that. Any chance you might happen to have a link to a news story about it? (Not challenging you; I just didn't hear about it before now is all.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

sadly, HP is right. from a pure web surfing experience, the HP is indisputably superior.

Well … sort of. They've got a strong selling point on the "surf the whole Web" thing. In fact, I seem to remember that Apple hit that same point very hard when they released the iPhone, back when WAP or whatever it was called was still considered a thing.

But HP's argument begs the question of whether Flash is really "part of the Web" or not. Take PDF for example. Lots of PDF documents are posted to the Internet. Is PDF therefore "part of the Web?" What about Microsoft Office documents? I still, bafflingly, run across Word documents, Excel spreadsheets and Powerpoint decks posted to Web sites for download. Are they "part of the Web?"

Apple's taking the position (for a couple reasons at least) that Flash isn't really "part of the Web." It's … like … Web-adjacent. Whether they've got a point, and whether the public at large will agree, remains to be seen.

But the bigger point is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post

Flash depends heavily on hover, and click and drag. How many flash (games esp., since this is something that cannot be done in HTML5) are actually compatible with a touch interface?

EXACTLY. This is a vital point that many people list. Just this morning I got a link to a little Flash game from a friend, and I spent a minute messing with it. (You throw balls to knock blocks off platforms. It's cute, in a "this amused me for ten minutes" kind of way.) Trouble is, that game had keyboard controls built into it. I might have been able to play the first few levels on a touch interface — it was strictly click-and-drag at first, which can be emulated with gestures. But once I reached the point where the game said "press 'E' to make such-n-such happen," I would have been shit-out-of-luck on an HP slate.

If you think about it, Flash is used pretty much exclusively for four things on the Web today:

1. Video

2. Advertising

3. Casual games

4. As an alternative to HTML and CSS for designing Web pages.

Number four has been on its way out for a long time, and I think we can say that it's effectively dead now. The Virgin America thing (was it America? Virgin Airlines? Whatever) was the highest-profile instance of a Web site owner eschewing Flash in favor of Web standards, but it was hardly the first. We're rapidly reaching the point where #4 will be extinct.

Number one, similarly, is on its way out. Any minute now, the Firefox people are going to wake up and realize that leaving out support for today's universal video delivery codec in favor of one literally nobody has ever used would be an astonishingly stupid idea. "You can't watch Youtube in our browser" is not going to be a very good marketing position. (Though is Firefox a for-profit enterprise? Maybe they don't care about losing market share? I really couldn't say.)

There's already a significant push to move Web advertising away from Flash, for the simple fact that if your customers are on mobile devices without Flash support, they're not seeing your ads, which means you're not getting paid.

That leaves casual gaming. Apple is not stupid; they've thought this through already. They know that casual gaming is a big deal, which is why they've made sure that the iPhone and iPad are both at least generally suitable for developing and distributing casual games. Of course, writing an iPhone game and writing a Flash game are radically different things, but the iPhone and iPad owners don't care about that. If the question is, "Can I play casual games on this?" then Apple's answer is "Yes," and they're betting that's good enough. Seems to have worked out okay for the iPhone so far; we'll see how it scales as the customer base grows.

HP's position, in a nutshell, is, "Our device lets you surf the Web as it was a year ago, even to the point of having games and Web applications fail to function because they expect a mouse and keyboard." Apple's position is, "This is the way the Web is going, and our device is ready for it."

Which one of them will turn out to be right? That's up to about ten million people with credit cards and a few hundred bucks to blow on a pure luxury item. We'll have to wait and see.
post #48 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

Apple wouldn't want to get in the ring with HP. Best sticking to pushing around the small potatoes. Otherwise Apple wouldn't be pussy footing around with HTC, they'd have gone after Google.

That's funny. You compare these two like they're pro wrestlers.

As as company, what does Apple have to fear from HP? If Apple's argument has merit, they'll win. End of story. Doesn't matter what standing the company has in business right now.

As for the HTC comment, it's the hardware manufacturers that have infringed on the patents for the touch interface, not the software maker. Kill the hardware and the software had no where to go.
post #49 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

The significance of HP's marketing strategy is that they are chasing the leader. Even with the product not yet on the market, the leader is Apple. It's a very nice problem to have.

hmm, that's one theory. The other could be that HP has 4x the computing market share, and those users might be more inclined to stay within their brand security, much the same as Apple user do.
post #50 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psych_guy View Post

That's funny. You compare these two like they're pro wrestlers.

As as company, what does Apple have to fear from HP? If Apple's argument has merit, they'll win. End of story. Doesn't matter what standing the company has in business right now.

As for the HTC comment, it's the hardware manufacturers that have infringed on the patents for the touch interface, not the software maker. Kill the hardware and the software had no where to go.

Again, naive. The majority of lawsuits are settled out of court. In my opinion, and I'm not alone, Apple is being a bit frivolous with their claims of IP ownership. If they went against an HP with a like claim, they know HP can go the distance and can outspend them and might be a little reluctant to throw up a lawsuit just to see if it sticks.

To your other point...please think about that one. Because if you agree with that, then you also agree Apple should have gone after PC vendors and not Microsoft for patent infringement, since if there were no PC's, there would have been no place for Windows. Pick your poison, you can't have both.
post #51 of 260
No sacrifices? Let’s see how many Flash games are truly playable on that HP device that lacks a mouse. Because games are the long-term reason to demand Flash, not video.
post #52 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

HP attacks Apple iPad over Flash

I seemed to have missed the part of the article where this happened???
post #53 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

hmm, that's one theory. The other could be that HP has 4x the computing market share, and those users might be more inclined to stay within their brand security, much the same as Apple user do.

I don't see any of the Windows OEMs enjoying much if any brand loyalty. It's not like any of them offer significantly different products from any of the others, or that owners of HP computers go into a store with the thought foremost in their minds of buying another HP computer. Apple is the company offering the differentiated products. No, I think when you see a company going after another company, it's not because the attacker sees themselves a being ahead in the game.
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post #54 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by reliason View Post

I agree that it is all about battery life. I think that HP will be LUCK to get 2 hours out of it's slate running Win 7. The hardware requirements for Win 7 are just so much higher that the extra energy spent on CPU/GPU will suck the batteries dry faster than iOS.

And that is, of course, if Apple doesn't get a 'cease and desist' order against HP for infringing on the multi-touch metaphor.

Well, to flesh this out a little; with any mobile device, it's not just about battery life. It's about battery life x size x weight
Easy to get better battery life from a device. Just put a bigger battery in it. (and accept the consequences vs. the benefits of that.)
post #55 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknick View Post

Why do I want a small device to run Windows 7? I already have a laptop running Windows 7.

Don't get me wrong, I was hoping that the iPad was going to be a small device running full blown OS X. I won't lie, at first I was a little disappointed that it wasn't that. The more I thought about it though, I understand why Apple didn't go this route - and this is what sets the iPad apart from the HP Slate.

The iPad is designed from the ground up as a simple to use tablet device with superior touch screen capabilities. The performance will be amazing. The battery life will be amazing and the experience will be amazingly simple. Why? It was designed to be like that from the hardware right up to the software, that's why.

The HP Slate is a tablet designed to run Windows. So you'll get Flash. And Air. And all the problems that come with running a full version of Windows on a tiny, underpowered device (slow performance, short battery life, and a desktop OS with touch tacked on).

I believe that Flash will eventually become a "desktop class" standard and consumer devices like the iPad will make do without. Adobe has already released a Connect Pro app for the iPhone and it works super well. Connect is 100% Flash based on the web - so why can't this be done with things like the beloved Flash based games people are prattling on about? Can's convert Flash to an iPhone app? You will be able to do this soon enough. At Max last year Adobe showed off Flash CS5 with an option to export to iPhone (and , I bet, iPad by the time of release).

I don't think Flash will die, but it will change in some way shape or form. It will have to.

it's not a full version of Windows 7. MS has made Windows more modular so HP is using a smaller version.
post #56 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

just as the "arrogance" of the dinosaurs spelled their doom ages ago.

I'm having trouble following you, would you care to explain?
post #57 of 260
It runs Windows 7. What a horrible joke. Imagine using Windows 7 on a touch-only slate and halfway through every interaction you come to the part where the 'touch-optimized' UI ends and the cursor UI begins. Broken.

And where again do I go to buy apps that just work?

And which machine's OS was specifically designed with its own hardware in mind?

And who's coming to market months before the other?

What a joke.
post #58 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by reliason View Post

I agree that it is all about battery life. I think that HP will be LUCK to get 2 hours out of it's slate running Win 7. The hardware requirements for Win 7 are just so much higher that the extra energy spent on CPU/GPU will suck the batteries dry faster than iOS.

And that is, of course, if Apple doesn't get a 'cease and desist' order against HP for infringing on the multi-touch metaphor.


my iphone 3GS gets about 3 hours of constant surfing. i saw the youtube video and the Slate looks very nice. Neither the iPad or Slate is perfect and the Slate seems to be a bit slower but i'll take the functionality of the slate compared to a crippled giant ipod for the same price.
post #59 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

You're disputing it, but changing the argument. You CANNOT argue that flash is not currently used on websites. The iPad will not display flash, therefore it is an incomplete experience when viewing the web. You can argue all you want that it's dying tech, but it irrelevant as an argument to my statement.

And Apple didn't develop anything. I swear it took more R&D for them to figure out how to stamp a pretty little apple logo on the chip than anything else...

You are changing your own argument too. You said browsing on the HP Slate will be "indisputably superior", not the most complete. If the iPad is better at browsing the non flash portion of the web (which is most of it), how can the HP Slate be considered "indisputably superior"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

hmm, that's one theory. The other could be that HP has 4x the computing market share, and those users might be more inclined to stay within their brand security, much the same as Apple user do.

People buy HP because it is cheap, there is very little brand loyalty (or security) there.
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post #60 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

There'll be the iPad and 49 fragmented tablets. We'll see how long many of those 49 last, given their individual uptake (and hence scale).

And, if there's touch involved, careful with the IP, HP!

if they all run Flash who cares? all the flash enabled sites i go to look and act the same on my windows 7 and OS X computers. no need for custom written apps either. you just write once to flash and it works on your PC, Mac, tablet, etc
post #61 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

He in lies the problem of Apple showing and telling long before sales started. IMHO Apple should have come out of the box with a ready to sell product. The developers could have been under NDAs or in the dark if Apple really wanted to be secret, the flip from iPhone to iPad development isn't hard and if Apple had all their apps such as iWorks ready plus the 2 x App feature there would have been enough stuff to start with to keep interest until developers got up to speed. Coming out early was a gift for the wannabes and copy cats to confuse the public. Hopefully Apple will be so differentiated by the interface and apps as to make all these worries moot.

I think you over estimate the ease at which competitors can just copy the iPad. What they are doing is bringing out their products as fast as they can in order to cash in on a new wave started by the iPad. The trouble is that everybody will be comparing these new products to the the iPad which will play into the hands of Apple because for the most part they will not measure up. The problem for HP is first and foremost the AppStore. The closed iPhone OS with limited lack of multi tasking, etc, that people criticize will also play into Apple's hands. Personally I love the idea of the HP Slate. It runs a full OS, has access to ALL the web, and I presume the file system - so now all the very boring iPad naysayers across the web finally have a great alternative. It even looks like an iPad! Its not as if competition was not expected, not as if no-one else can make a decent product. I have no problem working on a PC but my preference is Mac. In terms of slates/pads I believe Apple has got it just right and people will flock to it. Personal computing is changing away from the large complex OS experience / large complex software experience to a much more streamlined experience with narrowly focussed dedicated apps.
post #62 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by gFiz View Post

hmm, that's one theory. The other could be that HP has 4x the computing market share, and those users might be more inclined to stay within their brand security, much the same as Apple user do.

You're not making much sense. They sell more PCs because Apple chooses not to compete in the low end of the market where there are razor thin margins and brand loyalty doesn't exist, just cheapness.

You're also ignoring the fact that Apple is worth nearly twice as much as HP. That means Apple can beat down HP on size alone.

Add to the fact that Apple makes products and offers services that do command brand loyalty and you have HP being nothing but a pawn that requires MS at every turn. Not exactly a great place to be.
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post #63 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

No sacrifices? Lets see how many Flash games are truly playable on that HP device that lacks a mouse. Because games are the long-term reason to demand Flash, not video.

On my laptop / imac my kids play flash games. On their iPods they play iPod games. Flash just isn't an issue.
post #64 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrike View Post

Apple does not nor does anyone have a patent on any kind of gesture. Apple does not even have a patent on pinch-to-zoom/open/close gesture. They have patents on certain touch screen UI mechanisms and designs.

Thank you. I don't know why more people can't understand this. There are still people actually saying "Dude, there were touch screens around before Apple's iPhone. Blah, blah, blah".
I don't even try to respond to them anymore. Just have to .
post #65 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

I believe the TM2t runs right around 1000.00. Specs on mine are 4GB of memory, 12.1 multi touch HD LED screen, 500GB 7200rpm drive, Wireless N with BT, Intell SU7300 which is 1.3 DUO and I believe its a 6cell battery. I believe it has a 4550 ATI GPU.

So its pretty nice for the Tablets on the market today.

I believe its the Dell Tablet that is 2-3k and honestly I dont see anything special about it to justify that price.

So, to sum up. It's a TM2t is a notebook/convertible. With a Keyboard. Running full Win 7 in 4 gigs of ram. 6 cell battery, weighing in at 4.7 pounds and costing $900-$1000 USD.

This might be a 'competitor' of the White MacBook, but not the iPad. Weight, battery life and cost don't compare.
post #66 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

if they all run Flash who cares? all the flash enabled sites i go to look and act the same on my windows 7 and OS X computers. no need for custom written apps either. you just write once to flash and it works on your PC, Mac, tablet, etc

That isn't true. Flash being operated by a mouse and keyboard can't work the same with finger as input. There are many examples of games and other Flash apps that simply won't work without a rewrite to account for the input variance, something Adobe is still working on now, in March 2010, with Flash 10.1.

For example, even on something as simple as Flash-based video player the controls don't function properly for a touchscreen. You can click the play/pause button just fine, but to move the slider you need to click and hold, which you can't do with a finger-based tablet.
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post #67 of 260
Flash reminds me of that opening scene from The Green Mile... "Dead man walkin'. We got a dead man walking here. Dead man. Dead man walkin'."
post #68 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by reliason View Post

So, to sum up. It's a TM2t is a notebook/convertible. With a Keyboard. Running full Win 7 in 4 gigs of ram. 6 cell battery, weighing in at 4.7 pounds and costing $900-$1000 USD.

This might be a 'competitor' of the White MacBook, but not the iPad. Weight, battery life and cost don't compare.

Yeah, I just went to HP's site and checked that out. That's a laptop, man. Okay, it's got a complicated mechanical hinge (that seems really failure-prone to me, but what do I know) but that is a laptop.

Here's the test: Can you imagine holding it with one hand to read as you sit on a plane or train, like you would book? If the answer is no, then it's not a handheld device.
post #69 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

my iphone 3GS gets about 3 hours of constant surfing. i saw the youtube video and the Slate looks very nice. Neither the iPad or Slate is perfect and the Slate seems to be a bit slower but i'll take the functionality of the slate compared to a crippled giant ipod for the same price.

I need to get my hands on both devices before I call one 'crippled' or 'functional'. I have had VERY bad experiences with Win CE devices in the past, therefore I don't hold out much hope for Win 7 on a 'slate'.

The key words you used are 'same price'. I doubt very much that HP will be able to match the iPad price point successfully. Stripping out the hardware costs of the iPad (at about, what? $265 without 3g estimated) . Microsoft Win 7 adds between $85 and a $100 per unit. It is really tough for HP to compete.

Nothing is perfect.
post #70 of 260
All HP has to offer is flash?!

Not a single person outside the GEEKS forums even know what flash is. HP is aiming at the geek community, which must be like 2% of the world population. Apple is aiming at the other 98%... And when these guys buy an iPad, if they can't see a website they will blame the owner of the website, not the iPad. Whenever I can't see a website written for IE, I blame the owner of the website, not the browser I'm using. It works like that for most people.

Flash or not flash.... who on their right mind ponders this things? And HP touting that, it shows that it is ran by geeks, out of touch with the real world.
post #71 of 260
In the few cases where it's clear a user is actually interacting with the device, responsiveness is super sluggish. I call unrefined and ugly on the UI, even though the vast majority of the interactions look faked.

How does Flash provide access to the whole web, when only 75% of videos use Flash?
No doubt Youtube dominates that 75% and its videos are also available in h.264.
post #72 of 260
ooo, with this slate i can now experience ALL flash-based advertisements!

i'm convinced that flash is just another animated GIF, alas, more elaborate.
post #73 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomfoolery View Post

If you think about it, Flash is used pretty much exclusively for four things on the Web today:

1. Video

2. Advertising

3. Casual games

4. As an alternative to HTML and CSS for designing Web pages.

The visitors to this forum who argue against Flash are mostly talking about these categories which can be replaced with markup technologies. However there are some of us who program in Flash for business and scientific applications for which there is currently no substitute to Flash. For example you cannot create a realtime dynamic graph, pie chart, angled line, polygon and many other primitive graphic elements in HTML 5. So we still need Flash. If you want your application to be used on a touch interface don't rely on hover or drag for that device.

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post #74 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomfoolery View Post

Yeah, I just went to HP's site and checked that out. That's a laptop, man. Okay, it's got a complicated mechanical hinge (that seems really failure-prone to me, but what do I know) but that is a laptop.

It seems Apple is not track to rebuild another market from the ground up. All these other tablets have been PCs with a desktop OS and resistive touchscreen, but now it looks like a truly portable device with a mobile OS is the going to be the way to go.
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post #75 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

However there are some of us who program in Flash for business and scientific applications for which there is currently no substitute to Flash. For example you cannot create a realtime dynamic graph, pie chart, angled line, polygon and many other primitive graphic elements in HTML 5. So we still need Flash. If you want your application to be used on a touch interface don't rely on hover or drag for that device.

Ever heard of Javascript?
post #76 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It seems Apple is not track to rebuild another market from the ground up. All these other tablets have been PCs with a desktop OS and resistive touchscreen, but now it looks like a truly portable device with a mobile OS is the going to be the way to go.

Well, that's what Jobs said on the announcement, right? A new category... then came the pundits saying it was not enough.... then came the companies like HP throwing out me too products... then came the pundits saying how these mee too products where way better than the apple ones... then will come the sales and quarterly reports... then the pundits will scratch their heads...
post #77 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

The visitors to this forum who argue against Flash are mostly talking about these categories which can be replaced with markup technologies. However there are some of us who program in Flash for business and scientific applications for which there is currently no substitute to Flash. For example you cannot create a realtime dynamic graph, pie chart, angled line, polygon and many other primitive graphic elements in HTML 5. So we still need Flash. If you want your application to be used on a touch interface don't rely on hover or drag for that device.

I have no idea how viable they are right now, but I've seen plenty of charts examples with HTML5.
http://www.rgraph.net/ More to the point, if it's for a business or scientific application then having it on the World Wide Web likely isn't required so making a bonafide C-based app in iPhone OS or Android would seem to be a better choice.
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post #78 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStud View Post

Ever heard of Java?

What flavor do you recommend?

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post #79 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

There'll be the iPad and 49 fragmented tablets. We'll see how long many of those 49 last, given their individual uptake (and hence scale).

And, if there's touch involved, careful with the IP, HP!

I'm noticing this word more and more 'fragmented' describing the PC side which to me is the antithesis of Apple's 'ecosystem!'

Two words that sum up the difference between PC's and Macs all down the line.

It's almost like the media is starting to get it. Almost!
post #80 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

There'll be the iPad and 49 fragmented tablets. We'll see how long many of those 49 last, given their individual uptake (and hence scale).

And, if there's touch involved, careful with the IP, HP!

As an Apple apologist, I think the MS Courier will be the bomb especially if programmig apps are easy and you can play flash. Remember, 100% of tv sites usecl flash so the marketing will probably be like video for free vs paying for it at iTunes.

The Couirier will be big with enterprise and students and if it really is non oem and all msft this means it's msft first computer and they will have better contol over them.

Exciting times for is consumers. All devices will get better.
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