or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Flash, HTML 5 comparison finds neither has performance advantage
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Flash, HTML 5 comparison finds neither has performance advantage - Page 4

post #121 of 156
I notice only two posts thus far have really concentrated on the whole story.

That is to say, that video is not the only place where Flash unnecessarily gobbles up my Mac's processor cores to the point that my fans turn on.

Hell, whenever there's a Flash applet showing just a static image and a button, the fans go wild.

Now, for a laptop, that's just bloody irritating. The CPU spikes, the fans spin, and my battery deteriorates.

So sod the "oh you must have hardware acceleration" argument, please.

Hardware acceleration isn't going to help Flash show a non-moving image and a freakin' button.
post #122 of 156
IMO, HTML5 is superior with regard to security. Flash is defective by design. As HTML 5 picks up, the rendering engines will improve performance numbers.
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
Most of us employ the Internet not to seek the best information, but rather to select information that confirms our prejudices. - Nicholas D. Kristof
Reply
post #123 of 156
Just installed click2flash. Never actually tried this before but DAMN, browsing is noticeably faster on my 3.06 iMac (6MB L2 cache, not the new crappy 3MB version :P )

This website for example, loads 4 flash banners at the same time. Sometimes it hits 30% on each core just idle. With click2flash its 5 to 10% idle. Not a big deal on a desktop but a huge deal on the mobile phone or laptop. Thats your battery man!

I can see why the iPad skips flash, but I know if I use my iPhone to go to an HTML5 heavy site... well there are serious slowdowns just like with flash.

I hopped by the MacHeist website a few weeks back and there was a nice HTML5 animation. Maxed out my iPhones CPU to 100%

I wasn't near a computer and I was trying to sign up on my iPhone and it could only type 1 character a second because the CPU was overworked from the HTML5.

Too bad the animation isn' there anymore. Anyone know of any other HTML5 heavy sites we can use to demo this?

Anyhow... my point is that any excessive animation/add banners will cause performance problems regardless of the format. The only real solution on a mobile platform is throttling, control, and code optimization. Something Steve Jobs can't easily do with the flash plugin because he doesn't have access to the source code.
post #124 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

The iPhone promised us "Full Internet," and Apple has yet to deliver on that statement.

Not that old chestnut!

Regardless of your bias, the iPhone delivered a significantly better experience across more of the internet than any other mobile device before or after it.

"Full Internet" was just marketing speak for not having to go a "mobile version" of a site which stripped out 90% of the functionality to show you a much crapper looking version of the site on a small screen.

If you can't see that, then there really is no hope. I mean Microsoft market each new version of Windows as their "most secure ever" and that wasn't really the case for 2000/XP with the number of new holes that were introduced into that "by design".

Marketing is marketing, end of story. Get over it. It will NEVER be the 100% truth, always a skewed version of it. Let's face it, if they had to be 100% truthful you probably wouldn't buy anything.
post #125 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

You flash blockers are so superior: Block advertising. Stick it to the man.

And if your efforts where universalized (like that would ever happen) the revenue model of the web would dissolve, creating a world of shovelware from India and China.

And you are the evangelists trying to push this?

You are Satan....fortunately a very ignorant strain.

How can we be Satan when adverts are there to tempt you to buy products and Satan is the master of temptation?
One more reason to get a Flash blocker - it'll keep us on the devout, righteous path and lead us not into temptation!


So by your logic in order to keep the web going I should be forced to watch Flash ads and have my computer slow down to be unusable? The Flash ads aren't the best way to reach me; the advertisers need to use a different approach for me. Before using clicktoflash I rarely looked at those ads anyway and they rarely offered anything of interest to me.


Next you'll hold open my eyes and pin me to the ground so I'll be forced to look at a billboard on the street.


Quote:
Democrats like Jobs are the biggest business hypocrites of all time. Actually democrats are becoming synonymous for hypocrisy

I'm not from nor in the USA and can't vote there so your political views are irrelevant to me; even if I were a US citizen I wouldn't go to an article comparing the merits of Flash and HTML5 in order to discuss politics.

Most people judge a company by the products, services and prices which they offer, not by which political party its directors may or may not support.
post #126 of 156
Here ya go, pal, knock yourself out:-

http://www.apple.com/downloads/macos...iphonesdk.html

Let me know when you develop an App, I might even buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

By the way, speaking of proprietary formats, why doesn't Apple open up the App Store to all who wish to develop for the iPhone?

...Yeah, I went there. Apple is the prince of closed systems, second only to Microsoft.

-Clive
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
Better than my Bose, better than my Skullcandy's, listening to Mozart through my LeBron James limited edition PowerBeats by Dre is almost as good as my Sennheisers.
Reply
post #127 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

Perhaps because

1) 90% of people use a platform on which Flash performs better
2) There is much, much more content encoded for Flash than HTML5. If you had to pick better battery life with less access to content, or vice versa, which would it be?

The iPhone promised us "Full Internet," and Apple has yet to deliver on that statement. Instead they insist upon fighting a war with Adobe - for whose benefit? Certainly not the users...

-Clive

Absolutely!
Another illustration why the process of development / progress should be democratic and not autocratic. There is a reason why people chose Flash. Even in a little known school in India kids know how to make flash animation.
post #128 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by tawilson View Post

Not that old chestnut!

Regardless of your bias, the iPhone delivered a significantly better experience across more of the internet than any other mobile device before or after it.

"Full Internet" was just marketing speak for not having to go a "mobile version" of a site which stripped out 90% of the functionality to show you a much crapper looking version of the site on a small screen.

If you can't see that, then there really is no hope. I mean Microsoft market each new version of Windows as their "most secure ever" and that wasn't really the case for 2000/XP with the number of new holes that were introduced into that "by design".

Marketing is marketing, end of story. Get over it. It will NEVER be the 100% truth, always a skewed version of it. Let's face it, if they had to be 100% truthful you probably wouldn't buy anything.

All he is trying to say is that let the users ( as opposed to Steve Jobs ) choose. I love the smart bookmarks on Firefox / Opera / Chrome . I can't believe that I can't change the browser in iPhone. I am convinced business practices will be why Apple will not be able to reach its potential.
post #129 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by gauravchak View Post

All he is trying to say is that let the users ( as opposed to Steve Jobs ) choose. I love the smart bookmarks on Firefox / Opera / Chrome . I can't believe that I can't change the browser in iPhone. I am convinced business practices will be why Apple will not be able to reach its potential.

You can change the browser on the iPhone. Well, not the default browser when you click on html links in other apps, but at least you can install and launch other browsers, and there are dozens now on the app store. Yes, they are all WebKit browsers. But they are there.
post #130 of 156
I'm already redesigning clients' web sites using jQuery instead of Flash.

Tested on my iPod Touch and everything looks beautiful.
post #131 of 156
So this is a comparison between a new open standard, not fully supported or optimized yet by the browsers, versus an old proprietary system that has had years to optimize under the direction and whim of a single company. The results are interesting but the power of a standard is to not be reliant on a single company for optimization and roadmap. HTML5 allows each browser to support, optimize and improve as it deems most appropriate.

Flash has done some amazing things, credit where credit is due. HTML5's design now has the advantage of following in Flash's footsteps, but as a standard for all to choose how to support on the individual platforms. It's a longterm approach that is not going to be reflected in this type of comparison quite yet.
post #132 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorotea View Post

Probably because I don't use Flash much on my Mac. In fact I have flash turned of (Click2Flash)

Not everyone thinks that Flash use is a deal breaker.

90% of the sites I visit the only flash on the page is ads. I highly recommend everyone use the plug-in, it's a real eye opener as to just how useless flash on the web really is & just what a straw man argument it is to say Flash is used by most of the web.

I guess the good thing in all of this is that I'm never annoyed by website ads.
post #133 of 156
The issue is not about whether Flash or HTML5 can play back a H.264 encoded video most efficiently... It's about all the other crap (some pretty cool stuff) that Flash does so inefficiently.

There are times where I observe CPU ramp up in the 90% range just having a web page sitting open that has Flash content doing nothing... no interaction, no video playing, just some of those obnoxious Flash advertising animations in the background.

An other issue is Flash stability and vulnerability. When I allow Flash to run, it will lock up my browser just about every session. No, it's not just about video playback performance.
post #134 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

An other issue is Flash stability and vulnerability. When I allow Flash to run, it will lock up my browser just about every session. No, it's not just about video playback performance.

Get a PC. Problem solved.

Personally, I can't imagine that surfing would be pleasurable when one needs to fear a crash every time one clicks a link. WTF? Personally, I like it when things just work.
post #135 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by iGenius View Post

Get a PC. Problem solved.

Personally, I can't imagine that surfing would be pleasurable when one needs to fear a crash every time one clicks a link. WTF? Personally, I like it when things just work.

So with that in mind, can anyone blame Steve and Apple for pissing on Flash for the iPhone?
post #136 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapzupnz View Post

I notice only two posts thus far have really concentrated on the whole story.

That is to say, that video is not the only place where Flash unnecessarily gobbles up my Mac's processor cores to the point that my fans turn on.

Hell, whenever there's a Flash applet showing just a static image and a button, the fans go wild.

Now, for a laptop, that's just bloody irritating. The CPU spikes, the fans spin, and my battery deteriorates.

So sod the "oh you must have hardware acceleration" argument, please.

Hardware acceleration isn't going to help Flash show a non-moving image and a freakin' button.

No, but that's what improvements in utilizing Core Animation and Time address in 10.1 (see: http://www.kaourantin.net/). Feel free to download the 10.1 beta today to give your fans a rest.

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/
post #137 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

Democrats like Jobs are the biggest business hypocrites of all time. Actually democrats are becoming synonymous for hypocrisy.

There is a specific PoliticalOutsider forum added expressly so you and your ilk can spew political vitriol to your hearts content, where the rest of us don't have to wade through it.

However, it doesn't belong here.

In fact, that topic is specifically banned in any of the other forums beside that one.

BTW, you agreed to this in the ToS when you signed up. Thanks in advance for complying.

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply
post #138 of 156
... and I'll just add that I think people are being a little disingenuous with the whole "it's not the video, it's the flash ads that are spinning my fans up". Here's my pic, AppleInsider homepage with 5 flash ads running concurrently... 4% CPU usage. Not perfect... but not fan-worthy.



That said, I'm sure no one at Adobe is loosing sleep over the possibility of HTML5 taking over the banner-ad space. Please, take it.
post #139 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post

You flash blockers are so superior: Block advertising. Stick it to the man.

And if your efforts where universalized (like that would ever happen) the revenue model of the web would dissolve, creating a world of shovelware from India and China.

And you are the evangelists trying to push this?

You are Satan....fortunately a very ignorant strain.

I twice had a Windows XP PC get hopelessly infected with spyware, to the point of being unusable. The source both times were Flash-based games on the web that my son liked to play; they surreptitiously exploited Flash/Windows vulnerabilities to get the spyware installed via a regular account with no admin privileges. OBTW, this was the main reason we switched to Macs and never looked back. (That I got WGA'ed the second time I reinstalled Windows and had to call Redmond to get a new key didn't help matters.)

The fact remains that Adobe Flash and the Adobe PDF reader are inherently insecure and are the primary source for compromising a computer (spyware, botnets, etc.) in 2010. For that reason alone, Flash blockers are worth their weight in gold. The fact that they automatically block the most intrusive and annoying ads on the web (and hidden Flash "cookies") is just a bonus.

I'm a little unclear how that makes me Satan...

The only reason more people don't block Flash ads is because they don't know they can. All this buzz created from the pro-Flash camp about "OMG! Flash is Teh Webz!" will only educate more people that they can selectively opt out of most of what Flash has to offer. I've never demoed Flash blocking to anyone who didn't immediately ask how they could get that on their own browser. Maybe you Flash "coders" that seem to be taking this so personally could redirect your mad "programming" skillz toward building something more productive?

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

    AT&T believes their LTE coverage is adequate

Reply
post #140 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjb00 View Post

... and I'll just add that I think people are being a little disingenuous with the whole "it's not the video, it's the flash ads that are spinning my fans up". Here's my pic, AppleInsider homepage with 5 flash ads running concurrently... 4% CPU usage. Not perfect... but not fan-worthy.



That said, I'm sure no one at Adobe is loosing sleep over the possibility of HTML5 taking over the banner-ad space. Please, take it.

Depends on the add. Some can only use 5%, some can use 55%. Because of the proprietary nature of the plugin you can't control what it does. You can only enable or disable it.
post #141 of 156
It's easy to figure out why they don't want flash. HTML5 can do everything Flash can do except DRM. If you want to offer secure content on the iPhone you have to use the app store or iTunes.

Also, with HTML5 the browsers have access to the source so basically they can optimize and control HTML5 playback however they like.
post #142 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjb00 View Post

No, but that's what improvements in utilizing Core Animation and Time address in 10.1 (see: http://www.kaourantin.net/). Feel free to download the 10.1 beta today to give your fans a rest.

http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/

While I'm in no doubt that improvements have been made, I fail to see how Core Animation should improve the performance of something that doesn't even move but still sees fit to chew up processor time like a child in a chewing-gum factory.
post #143 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by zapzupnz View Post

While I'm in no doubt that improvements have been made, I fail to see how Core Animation should improve the performance of something that doesn't even move but still sees fit to chew up processor time like a child in a chewing-gum factory.

Thats like blaming a computer for a programmers mistake... Or shooting your television with a shotgun because you don't like whats on (if your old school)

Not all flash banners max out your CPU. The ones that do obviously have something sinister running in the backround.

It's not all Adobe's fault. A lot of the fault rests with the flash developers and websites that overuse it. All these same problems that occur with flash can also occur with HTML5 given the opportunity.
post #144 of 156
I predict in 2 years we will see HTML 5 come alive.
So far many businesses are probably asking whether their site should be non-flash.
Like Virgin Airlines has realized this already. They just changed their website to non-flash for iPhone users. Why? Cos iPhone users are the ones who usually are the demographic to go online to check their flights.
This is the first step and it always takes a few to lead the pack.
Not surprising coming from CEO's like Steve Jobs and Richard Branson who has changed the world with innovative thinking to their businesses.
I would think Flash will slowly ebb away.
Have you also noticed in the last 5 years, the trend in designer's websites that don't use flash at all?
This means something, a subtle force of change. Does Apple use flash on their site? They seemed to have a way to show their information with impact and retain simplicity.

The flash banner running above the reply box whilst I am typing this is animating like crazy with headlines and flashing graphics.I haven't bothered reading it. Do we ever?
post #145 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by CIM View Post

Does anyone else find it funny that Safari, on Windows, does better with Flash than IE?

Having had the displeasure of using even recent versions of IE, not really, no. Doesn't surprise me a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

You do realize Windows users have access to the same internet as Mac users don't you?

Trust me, logic isn't going to work in this instance.
post #146 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDBLACK View Post

HTML5 can do everything Flash can do except DRM.

The sad thing is the person who posted this most likely believes it.
post #147 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjb00 View Post

... and I'll just add that I think people are being a little disingenuous with the whole "it's not the video, it's the flash ads that are spinning my fans up". Here's my pic, AppleInsider homepage with 5 flash ads running concurrently... 4% CPU usage. Not perfect... but not fan-worthy.



That said, I'm sure no one at Adobe is loosing sleep over the possibility of HTML5 taking over the banner-ad space. Please, take it.

the fact that one (728X90) banner ad can use up 4% CPU is pretty freaking scary.
post #148 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

the fact that one (728X90) banner ad can use up 4% CPU is pretty freaking scary.

One banner could use 100% of your CPU or it could use less than 1%. Neither of them would be inherent to the Flash plug-in itself, but is more directly correlated to the content creator. The ubiquity of Flash and the ease of using the IDE == anyone who wants to, can create a banner ad. In fact, this type of work is most often relegated to the least experienced content creators because those with the actual wherewithal to create a decent low-bandwidth animation are working on bigger things.

||

Some idiot made that banner, and if that same idiot made a banner in JS it would be twice as horrible.
post #149 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz View Post

One banner could use 100% of your CPU or it could use less than 1%. Neither of them would be inherent to the Flash plug-in itself, but is more directly correlated to the content creator. The ubiquity of Flash and the ease of using the IDE == anyone who wants to, can create a banner ad. In fact, this type of work is most often relegated to the least experienced content creators because those with the actual wherewithal to create a decent low-bandwidth animation are working on bigger things.

||

Some idiot made that banner, and if that same idiot made a banner in JS it would be twice as horrible.

I have rarely seen any javascript that's so badly coded that it could slow down a browser, except Google Wave. Even then that could be avoided or prevented by the javascript runtime. With Flash you just have to wait for it to hang so bad it it eventually dies in it's own sandbox or crashes the browser.
post #150 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz View Post

The sad thing is the person who posted this most likely believes it.

HTML5 can potentially do almost everything flash can do except DRM.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post entirely. Having developed in flash I'm entirely aware of the difference between each platform.

Let me explain further. HTML5 can't do DRM because its an open standard. You can't have DRM with open source. This means secure content providers cannot use it. This is a plus for Apple because it forces content providers to use iTunes or the App store.

Also, pushing open standards on the web gives Apple more control with how their own devices interact with the internet.
post #151 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiA View Post

The disadvantage is I've found some useful sites which make use of Flash, notably maps.google.co.uk and finance.google.com. The other sites are mainly travel sites.
What's odd is that I've accessed these sites on the Flash free iPhone with no reduction in info presented (well useful info), which hints that it's quite easy to do away with flash altogether.

I don't know about the UK version but the only aspect of Google Maps that seems to use Flash is Streetview.

Here is a very slick example of how Google Finance can be implemented with open source code. This is much faster than using Flash.
http://www.humblesoftware.com/finance/index
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #152 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

It's not the same, they have 300% more internet because they can play flash efficiently!

But it doesn't address why they would hang out in a website for Mac users. It would be like me going over to Activewin or the Windows section of a multi-platform site to then troll and rant about how 'cool' Mac's are. The fact that a person needs to go into an Apple forum and parade Windows tells me that the person is either a troll or hate the idea of an alternative to their operating system of choice.
post #153 of 156
I love it when people start talking about something they obviously have no clue about.

Core Animation has nothing to do with hardware acceleration of video. It can utilise the GPU but it's for user interface animation.

OpenCL also has nothing to do with hardware acceleration of video. This is where a GPU can be used for general purpose processing not graphics or video processing.


This article is strange in that they talk about 10.1 as though it's what Steve Jobs was talking about. Steve was referring to 10.0 which also hogs the CPU on my Core i7 PC when I go on web pages overloaded with Flash content. It's not isolated to Mac. 10.1 isn't even a current release. So sort of unfair. Adobe also lets the Mac development lag behind for no valid reason. Adobe never likes using Apple's Core features as it thinks it can do things better. They just don't want to learn how to tap into the appropriate means of accelerating the video.
post #154 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't know about the UK version but the only aspect of Google Maps that seems to use Flash is Streetview.

Here is a very slick example of how Google Finance can be implemented with open source code. This is much faster than using Flash.
http://www.humblesoftware.com/finance/index

Thank you. It's true for the UK version too that Flash is only required for the Street View.

However the iPhone's Map App offers Street View too so it's possible to implement it without Flash, if only they can do that for the computer version too.

Thanks for the example, I hope Google is taking notes!
post #155 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheinside View Post

Core Animation has nothing to do with hardware acceleration of video. It can utilise the GPU but it's for user interface animation.

OpenCL also has nothing to do with hardware acceleration of video. This is where a GPU can be used for general purpose processing not graphics or video processing.

you are more clueless than you can even imagine.
post #156 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheinside View Post

Core Animation has nothing to do with hardware acceleration of video. It can utilise the GPU but it's for user interface animation.

http://www.apple.com/uk/macosx/what-...ics-media.html
Core Animation opens up the combined power of Mac OS X graphics technologies by simultaneously compositing layers of text, graphics and video using powerful keyframe animation techniques. Taking advantage of the capabilities of the GPU and multicore CPUs, Core Animation dynamically renders these layers together, complete with transparency and Core Image filter effects. Core Animation also allows developers to enhance their applications with amazing animated user experiences and rich visualisations without needing to know expert graphics and animation techniques.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheinside View Post

OpenCL also has nothing to do with hardware acceleration of video. This is where a GPU can be used for general purpose processing not graphics or video processing.


http://www.apple.com/uk/macosx/technology/
Instead, once developers begin to use OpenCL in their applications, youll experience greatly improved speed in a wide spectrum of applications.

For example... Media applications can perform complex, intensive operations with larger video and graphics files.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheinside View Post

I love it when people start talking about something they obviously have no clue about

so you must really love yourself...
...or do you wish to suggest Apple is clueless about its own OS?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Flash, HTML 5 comparison finds neither has performance advantage