Why do they hate us? - Page 2

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>

You do however have a problem understanding the fact that Islam has nothing to do whatsoever with flying Boeings in the WTC. </strong><hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/events/EA990/docket/Ex_12A.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/events/EA990/docket/Ex_12A.pdf</A>

Egypt Air 990. Suicide is against everything Islam stands for too.

[quote]Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
<strong>

<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/events/EA990/docket/Ex_12A.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/events/EA990/docket/Ex_12A.pdf</a>

Egypt Air 990. Suicide is against everything Islam stands for too.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


Same logic makes christianity terrorist.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>

[quote]I realize you are trying to make a point here<hr></blockquote>

then why did you even post? My point was to demonstrate what was being said was absurd. Therefore, I made absurd assertions, so that perhaps it would be clear to you. What part of it did you not understand?

[quote] but let's not be rediculous. And besides, America is changing on these things. How many years ago was it that dragging a "nigger" (quoted to make a point) behind a truck was not considered a criminal act? What vietnamese girls are we speaking of? And as far as school children being shot in school, back off. Before you go too far in your rant <hr></blockquote>

Stop being ridiculous, I specifically chose those examples to demonstrate that grossly generalizing was absurd. You fail to understand that, clearly.

[quote]The people that flew the planes into the WTC are still being backed up by the various governments of the middle east. Not all of them, but it is not hard to see what way the wind is blowing by who was willing to support us in the beginning versus where they stood at the middle and the end. There are still those who say that we deserved it who are in power. They represent their nation whether you like it or not. <hr></blockquote>

They are? IIRC, all Middle-Eastern governments denounced it as acts of barbary, the Saudis, Iranian, Syrians offered their help. Pakistan offered very precious intelligence, man-power and air-space. The only government that supported it was that of Saddam Hussein, and I don't think he's representative of anything.

[quote]For example, many of you got all bent out of shape about President Bush and his "Axis of Evil" statement. Does all of America feel that way. No, but it sure suited you fine to paste it across the entire nation because why? Our LEADER said it.<hr></blockquote>

Please point me to where it was pasted across the American nation? I'm specifically denouncing the fact that one shouldn't generalize the action of individuals to that of an entire population, in case you hadn't understood.

[quote]Who died and made you God? Get down off that high horse before you hurt yourself.<hr></blockquote>

I didn't hear you saying this to ScottH when he proudly proclaimed "Because their culture is backward and corrupt."

Perhaps you should stop that ever so convenient Manichean black and white view of good vs evil.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Dialog DIALOG Please Jessus (or whoever you worship) let the holy "dialog" save us from all the worlds ills.

If only we had dialog. That hasn't been tried before.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please read more carrefully my post, i said that there is two ingrediants strenght and dialog. In order to make a cake you have to put all the ingredients together or it won't work.

i didn't say that only dialog matter.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Same logic makes christianity terrorist.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I never called them terrorists now did I?
I merely pointed out a tiny amount of hypocriticizm. If you remember the big stink this incident caused between US and Egypt.
They claimed there was a defect in the Boeing aircraft and demanded their own investigation merely on the sole assumption that Islam doesn't allow suicide. The investigation clearly showed the engines were shut down and the pilot fought with the 2nd officer all the way down. Did you read the PDF, or did you just assume that I was being presumptious?

I admit I only read the first couple of pages of the document but your answer was to whether ISLAM is responsible for terror attacks not what Egypt as a state thinks Islam is.

Its so funny that all of you guys who hate the fundametalist muslims so much, also bash away at the french.
Its well known in the muslim world that the strongest voices of reformation, modernisation and democratisation of Islam come from the muslim intellectuals of France... well, well... talk about shitting in your own nest...

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>You do however have a problem understanding the fact that Islam has nothing to do whatsoever with flying Boeings in the WTC. You completely fail to recognize the absudity in generalizing the acts of a few crazy men to that of an entire sub-continent.</strong><hr></blockquote>We are talking about cultures here, not individuals (or we should be).

It's a superficial argument to say "you're generalizing - not everyone is like that." If someone says "men are taller than women" you could always argue "No that's not true - some women are taller than some men!" But that's a way of short-circuiting analysis. You have to generalize to draw conclusions and make judgments. Men ARE taller than women.

It's OK to do the same with cultures, and even religions, IMO. Remember, cultural relativism is basically a Western (i.e., European and American) intellectual idea. And I think it went too far. We should be willing to make judgments about cultures.

For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits. Families whose men died from other reasons don't get those benefits. It's an honor and privilege to kill yourself taking out Israelis. So as a result, there is now a backlog of volunteers. They want to have a place of honor for themselves and their families in their culture.

That is a cultural practice that is deserving of condemnation. It doesn't exist anywhere else, AFAIK. There are other cultural practices like this, such as the education system in some of the Muslim cultures, that likewise deserve condemnation.

no, there is only a minority in the islamic culture who have extreme thoughts and "habits" (can't think of any other words right now)

[quote] For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. <hr></blockquote>

so not true, it's common practice in Palastina, a very small part of the islamic culture

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know that Iraq have said they will send a check to the family of palestinians suicide bombers in Israel (but almost never do it) but I have never heard any of your information. A link please

(but almost never do it)

LOL. What, you think they want to be called a sponsor of terroris.... oh wait. Never mind.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>(but almost never do it)

LOL. What, you think they want to be called a sponsor of terroris.... oh wait. Never mind. </strong><hr></blockquote>

We can add that to the list we can prosecute Saddam for: Invading kuwait(cant remember english spelling), Starting a war with Iran (or was it... Oh never mind), Killing his own population AND breaking his promise. He is not just a murderer, terrorist sponsor and a war starter but on top of than he doesn´t even keep his promises

Was that bad taste?

[quote]For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits. Families whose men died from other reasons don't get those benefits. It's an honor and privilege to kill yourself taking out Israelis. So as a result, there is now a backlog of volunteers. They want to have a place of honor for themselves and their families in their culture.<hr></blockquote>

And Palestine is representative of the entire Islamic world how?

Again, those assertions might be correct when applied to the Taliban for example, but they are certainly *not* correct when applied to the entire Muslim world. It is indeed simplistic to dismiss generalization arbitrarily, however in this case, the generalization is utterly abusive.

Was that bad taste?

Nah. I don't think Saddam reads this forum. He prefers Future Hardware... All those rumors on the G5 gives him visions of computer-guided missile faries dancing in his head.

[quote]It's a superficial argument to say "you're generalizing - not everyone is like that." If someone says "men are taller than women" you could always argue "No that's not true - some women are taller than some men!" But that's a way of short-circuiting analysis. You have to generalize to draw conclusions and make judgments. Men ARE taller than women.<hr></blockquote>

Let's not be ridiculous, shall we? This thread is more akin to saying "Americans lack culture because they watch too much tv" and someone arguing "no, there are Americans like this, just like in any country" than your example. It is not a cultural constant of the Muslim world to sponsor terrorism, nor violate women's rights, nor hate Americans etc. ad nauseanum.

[quote]I don't think Saddam reads this forum. He prefers Future Hardware... All those rumors on the G5 gives him visions of computer-guided missile faries dancing in his head.<hr></blockquote>

heh... you think he finally got around to retrofitting SCUDs with PSX2s?

<a href="http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3218--264478-,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3218--264478-,00.html</a>

this is an article in French, stating that Saudi crown prince Abdallah ben Abdel Aziz has proposed normalisation of all Israelo-Arab relations in exchange for removal of Israëli occupation.

It just goes on to show anti-semitism and hatred is far from being a constant of the muslim world.

And for those in the audience who doesn´t trust a frog newspaper: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1842000/1842330.stm" target="_blank">BBC</a>

And whaddayouknow. Saudi Arabia, EU AND US united. Perhaps this is something.

Well lets hope the Palis and the Israelis are both down with this. I think it's fair and would ease tensions all over... especially these boards

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>Let's not be ridiculous, shall we? This thread is more akin to saying "Americans lack culture because they watch too much tv" and someone arguing "no, there are Americans like this, just like in any country" than your example. It is not a cultural constant of the Muslim world to sponsor terrorism, nor violate women's rights, nor hate Americans etc. ad nauseanum.</strong><hr></blockquote>My analogy was not perfect, but no analogy is. Yours is better - and BTW, if someone said "Americans watch too much TV," I'd completely agree. I think the average is close to 5 hours/day. Americans are also too fat - about 2/3 are overweight. Americans who deny these things are sticking their heads in the sand about real problems.

Honest self-criticism is good. Scape-goating other cultures as the reason for your problems is bad. Americans shouldn't do it - but Muslim countries shouldn't do it to the US, either, and they have been. And they haven't engaged in the kind of self-criticism that the US and Europe engage in all the time. They're too busy being victims of the US and Israel. Israel - the tiny slice of land, and the US - who gives more aid to Arab countries than to Israel.

And I think it's fair to say those are flaws in Arab culture, without saying it's true of every Muslim or even every Muslim country.

Now this I don´t understand. Why on earth are US even giving aid to Israel? Its not a third world country. It would be like giving aid to Italy. In my experience the cars on the street in Tel Aviv are newer than here in Copenhagen. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>Now this I don´t understand. Why on earth are US even giving aid to Israel?</strong><hr></blockquote>Well, maybe it's because they're surrounded by countries 50 times their size who have for the past 50 years called for Israel's complete destruction?

There have been a few wars - I wonder what would have happened if Israel had lost?

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>Well, maybe it's because they're surrounded by countries 50 times their size who have for the past 50 years called for Israel's complete destruction?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Assuming their need for security is higher than their need for high standart of living: You are not paying for their defense. You are paying for standard of living (as in: If they didn´t get the aid from you they would have to use the money they spent on Mercedes, McDonalds et al. on their military.)

Here's some sad statistics.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/26/gallup.muslims/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/26/gallup.muslims/index.html</a>

But it does show that CERTAIN muslim countries (Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan) have a higher opinion of the US than others (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran).

The fact of the matter is that right now Muslim countries are the enemies of the civilized world. They made it that way with their sponsorship of terrorism, schools that teach children to hate, schools and parents that teach children that they will be martyrs if they kill innocent people who aren't muslim, and by the absolute invisibility of any moderate muslim leaders who decry without equivocation the taking of an innocent life on purpose. THEY are the ones that need to change, NOT us.............................................

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>You are not paying for their defense. You are paying for standard of living</strong><hr></blockquote>I think that's true today. And I agree that we give too much to Israel - their economy is actually pretty large for its size. Ane everyone else thinks so, too. In the late 90s, israel and the US made an agreement to phase out all economic aid, and reduce military aid.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Here's some sad statistics.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/26/gallup.muslims/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/26/gallup.muslims/index.html</a>

But it does show that CERTAIN muslim countries (Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan) have a higher opinion of the US than others (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Turkey is by far the most westernized Muslim country in the world. Istanbul, Turkey, is geographically and also is considered Europe. Istanbul in my opinion, actually has more of a european feel that many other european countries.

[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>The fact of the matter is that right now Muslim countries are the enemies of the civilized world. They made it that way with their sponsorship of terrorism, schools that teach children to hate, schools and parents that teach children that they will be martyrs if they kill innocent people who aren't muslim, and by the absolute invisibility of any moderate muslim leaders who decry without equivocation the taking of an innocent life on purpose. THEY are the ones that need to change, NOT us.............................................</strong><hr></blockquote>

holy shit is this for real?
didn't hitler pull this hate stunt too?

[quote]Originally posted by thentro:
<strong>

holy shit is this for real?
didn't hitler pull this hate stunt too?</strong><hr></blockquote>

wow, now Steve666=Hitler?

There is a mjor reality check needed here.

Oh, and to everyone who was called rediculous by Syn, I Aplogize for bringing the word into the conversation, he obviously was stung by it and thought he should use it on others a bit.

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:

Then why did you even post? My point was to demonstrate what was being said was absurd. Therefore, I made absurd assertions, so that perhaps it would be clear to you. What part of it did you not understand?

Stop being ridiculous, I specifically chose those examples to demonstrate that grossly generalizing was absurd. You fail to understand that, clearly.<hr></blockquote>

I posted because your rediculous post went way over the line and off the page, and landed in a parked car across the street where it poked the drivers eye out. And I beleive I understood that and made it clear by saying "I realize you are trying to make a point".

[quote]They are? IIRC, all Middle-Eastern governments denounced it as acts of barbary, the Saudis, Iranian, Syrians offered their help. Pakistan offered very precious intelligence, man-power and air-space. The only government that supported it was that of Saddam Hussein, and I don't think he's representative of anything.<hr></blockquote>

No, the Muslim nations waited until they were sure that the war was going our way before they tried to help us in any open fashin. And even then all you heard was, That leader will never survive if he helps the US. He ill be thrown from power the next day. Of course once victory was pretty certain some were falling all over themsleves to show how they "helped" us.

[quote]Please point me to where it was pasted across the American nation? I'm specifically denouncing the fact that one shouldn't generalize the action of individuals to that of an entire population, in case you hadn't understood.<hr></blockquote>

One more you are pertending like I caould not possibly understand what you had written? am I just stupid here or what? Please SYN, teach me...

[quote]I didn't hear you saying this to ScottH when he proudly proclaimed "Because their culture is backward and corrupt."

Perhaps you should stop that ever so convenient Manichean black and white view of good vs evil.<hr></blockquote>

You are right, I did not say it to ScottH Because it did not apply. Sorry. He was making a vauge statement that is somewhat backed by facts that he presented and then he did not go on to say how they should be punished for their actions and pronounce that he was to be solely responsible as judge jury and executioner. you however did in your own limited way.

Perhaps you should not worry about my "ever so convenient view" of good and evil. Good is good, and evil is evil. Sorry, don't like it? tough.

[quote]holy shit is this for real?
didn't hitler pull this hate stunt too?<hr></blockquote>

sad isn't it

it's even worse, a lot of people here on AI think this way...

[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: sapi ]</p>

Actually, Scott, me and my wife were just talking about it last night how great it would be to live in Saudi Arabia. She could put on a bourqua and let herself go underneath and no one would be the wiser. And she hates talking in public anyway so that would be a relief. She's a sado-masocist like that, so she would enjoy being humiliated and beaten by me and other men. Now that I think more about it, sounds kinda kinky.... I have to go. Need to call my travel agent.

Found this this morning.. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/27/india.train/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/27/india.train/index.html</a>

30 people dead so far, expected to rise. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

&gt;holy shit is this for real?
didn't hitler pull this hate stunt too? &lt;

Jews didn't go around killing Germans. Jews didn't school their children in the art of suicide bombing. Jews didn't want everyone who wasn't like them to die.

The Muslim world, with the exception of Turkey, foments terrorism, encourages it, and watches with glee when innocents die. THEY are the Hitlers. Its not my fault that you're too stupid to see that........

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>Now this I don´t understand. Why on earth are US even giving aid to Israel? Its not a third world country. It would be like giving aid to Italy. In my experience the cars on the street in Tel Aviv are newer than here in Copenhagen. :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

You might be surprised where our money goes as aid, payments or through organizations.

...and how much. Frankly, I think a world without the USA's money would collapse in almost no time. Let's face it, we support much of the world's economy either directly through our government, indirectly through public organizations or through our corporations' investments. We can handle it, like we can handle our role of being the world's Great Scapegoat. There are plenty of things our government and corporations can be blamed for, but it's clear to me through umpteen of these threads that certain people will always blame the US for all our, their, your problems. But we can handle the burden, certainly better than anyone else. We'll just smile and dole out the cash...