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post #81 of 121
Why do they hate us? Because they hate themselves. The poll Gallup just did of the Islamic world found that 61% of respondants thought that Arabs weren't responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks. Okay, no suprise there. But the Gallup chief said on MSNBC that when they asked the follow-up "why do you think not?" the answers they got we along the lines of "Arabs aren't capable of such a dramatic and successful attack".

Arabs, in their own minds, are incapable of the organization, the secrecy, the imagination, the audacity, and the success. I find that absolutely fascinating. Of course they hate us. They hate themselves. They probably hate how their economies and cultures have stagnated and been hijacked into the desert by fundamentalists. Nothing we can do will make them stop hating us, because we can't stop them from hating themselves.
post #82 of 121
[quote]Originally posted by corvette:
<strong>
Turkey is by far the most westernized Muslim country in the world. Istanbul, Turkey, is geographically and also is considered Europe. Istanbul in my opinion, actually has more of a european feel that many other european countries.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is from last Thursdays WSJ:

CITIZEN OF THE WORLD

<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/tvaradarajan/?id=105001667" target="_blank">Dialogue With the Deaf
</a>
A Muslim-European summit is short on honesty and long on clichés.

BY TUNKU VARADARAJAN
Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:01 a.m.

[quote]ISTANBUL, Turkey - There was an episode to savor here last week, at a meeting of foreign ministers from the European Union and the Organization of the Islamic Conference - a body that purports to represent the Islamic world, and which is the only international organization of states defined purely in terms of religion.

In a ballroom with radiant views of the Bosphorus, Kamal Kharrazi, the foreign minister of Iran, posed stiffly for a photograph at an evening reception. A dapper, bearded chap, he passed a hand over his chin as a posse of Turkish cameramen edged him closer to a window. Suddenly, one of his minders darted behind Mr. Kharrazi and hustled a waitress out of sight. She was bearing a tray with glasses of wine and would have appeared, alcohol and all, just behind the minister's right shoulder had she stayed in the frame. This, one assumes, would not have gone down well back in Tehran, though the wine, a lively Anatolian red, was going down a treat at the reception - with momentarily impious Muslims and unbelievers alike.

The beauty of Turkey - and by this I mean the elegance of its cultural practices - lies in the fact that it is the only state in the Muslim world audacious enough to convene a conference with more than 40 Islamic foreign ministers present alongside their European counterparts, and then to include the country's leading winemaker and its most popular brewery among the event's sponsors. This may seem trivial in the grand scheme of things - and the theme of the two-day conference, "Civilization and Harmony: The Political Dimension," was grandiose indeed - but it is in these touches of Western custom, these flashes of cultural independence, that one detects the true nature of Turkey's separateness from the ummah, or the Islamic world.

Take another vignette. At Istanbul's Sultanahmet Mosque - known to Westerners as the "Blue Mosque" - I was part of a group of visitors approached by the imam. We knew he was the imam only because he told us so, for his aspect - dark pinstriped suit, white shirt, red floral tie, and the barest designer stubble on his face - revealed not a hint of his vocation. Nowhere else in the Islamic world (and certainly not in mosques in New York or London) would an imam dress in so cosmopolitan a way while on duty, or have so feeble a beard.

What is more, he shook hands with the ladies in our group, and posed for pictures. One woman, a forward type from Germany, asked what seemed an impertinent question: "Sir," she said, with that inimitably Teutonic straightness of face, "you don't mind images?" To which the imam chuckled, then replied: "Madame, this is Turkey."

The imam's repartee was more profound than it might have sounded to his listeners. It laid bare, in a mere phrase, the contours of contemporary Turkish life. In 1924, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of modern Turkey, made this observation in a speech to the nation: "Countries may vary, but civilization is one, and for a nation to progress, it must take part in this one civilization. The decline of the Ottomans began when, proud of their triumphs over the West, they cut their ties with the European nations. This was a mistake which we will not repeat."

Indeed, Turkish politics, and much of Turkish life, might be described as an anxiously choreographed ballet, with every move measured to ensure that the historic mistake to which Ataturk referred - to wit, a disregard of Western ways - is always avoided...<hr></blockquote>

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #83 of 121
before you guys start saying now, "Turkey is ok, the rest of the islamic world is wrong"

My second "homeland" Indonesia, biggest muslim country in the world, is like this too..

you might have heard some nasty things from there, but that's is coming from a very small group (but I admit, too big as well) which is funded by extremist groups..

people, cristians and muslims live in harmony and peace in Indonesia (yes, I know, again not everywhere). The fights between muslims and cristians have mostly taken place at the Maluku's, this because a group of 2000 men (muslims ) where sent there to start riots.
The people living there have recently been very happy due to agreements between cristian leaders and muslim leaders, they have always been neighbours, friends and even family.

A ferm majority of muslims in Indonesia do not hate the USA, muslims DO NOT HATE the USA. Get it out of your heads!!

Even in my family we have cristians AND muslims, all very happy going together..
Merdeka!
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post #84 of 121
After giving careful thought I have to conclude that this Gallup poll is not very indicative of the muslim mindset and may have been skewed by people with alterior motives. Think about it; almost 10,000 were polled in 9 countries. The combined population of 3 of the largest countries (Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia) is 445 million (according to <a href="http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/information/population/" target="_blank">this</a>) and 10,000 is .225%. Not even one quarter of one percent. Now imagine if I factor in ALL 9 nations! The sample was too insignificantly small to draw any conclusions from. Where were these people asked? As they were walking out of mosques? During Anti-US rallies? Who knows.
post #85 of 121
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>After giving careful thought I have to conclude that this Gallup poll is not very indicative of the muslim mindset and may have been skewed by people with alterior motives. Think about it; almost 10,000 were polled in 9 countries. The combined population of 3 of the largest countries (Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia) is 445 million (according to <a href="http://emuseum.mnsu.edu/information/population/" target="_blank">this</a>) and 10,000 is .225%. Not even one quarter of one percent. Now imagine if I factor in ALL 9 nations! The sample was too insignificantly small to draw any conclusions from. Where were these people asked? As they were walking out of mosques? During Anti-US rallies? Who knows.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In polls like this the number asked/population doesn´t mean the world. As long as its above 1000 its "enough" despite the population, but always count in a certain inaccuracy of a couple of percent and if you want to compare between lets say all 50 states in Us you have to have much more.

The other issue is much more important: Who did they ask and in what situation? Telephone interview is very hard to do in countries without the infrastructure of western europe (you won´t get the average population) and if they interviewed the people on the street I would be very sceptical about the validity of the Gallup.

And another factor to consider is the language and cultural differences not only between "us" and "them" but also between the countries in the Gallup. For instance words can be loaded with emotions, you can have languages that rely more on figurative speech, you can have another understanding of even factual questions aso. More scientific quantitative inquires use a lot of energy on questions like that, especially when the interviewed come from different countries, the audience of the Gallup is from other countries or when you compare figures over long time periodes (the same sentence can mean something completly different twenty years later.)
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post #86 of 121
Backpacking in Indonesia is one of the best experiences I've had. It is by far the most friendly, beautiful and inexpensive country I've ever visited...

The worst thing about Indonisia is all the Australian surfers...
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post #87 of 121
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html" target="_blank">Radical New Views of Islam and the Origins of the Koran</a>

By ALEXANDER STILLE

To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad: "This book is not to be doubted," the Koran declares unequivocally at its beginning. Scholars and writers in Islamic countries who have ignored that warning have sometimes found themselves the target of death threats and violence, sending a chill through universities around the world.

Yet despite the fear, a handful of experts have been quietly investigating the origins of the Koran, offering radically new theories about the text's meaning and the rise of Islam.

Christoph Luxenberg, a scholar of ancient Semitic languages in Germany, argues that the Koran has been misread and mistranslated for centuries. His work, based on the earliest copies of the Koran, maintains that parts of Islam's holy book are derived from pre-existing Christian Aramaic texts that were misinterpreted by later Islamic scholars who prepared the editions of the Koran commonly read today.

So, for example, the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality "white raisins" of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.

Christoph Luxenberg, however, is a pseudonym, and his scholarly tome ""The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran" had trouble finding a publisher, although it is considered a major new work by several leading scholars in the field. Verlag Das Arabische Buch in Berlin ultimately published the book.

The caution is not surprising. Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" received a fatwa because it appeared to mock Muhammad. The Egyptian novelist Naguib Mahfouz was stabbed because one of his books was thought to be irreligious. And when the Arab scholar Suliman Bashear argued that Islam developed as a religion gradually rather than emerging fully formed from the mouth of the Prophet, he was injured after being thrown from a second- story window by his students at the University of Nablus in the West Bank. Even many broad-minded liberal Muslims become upset when the historical voracity and authenticity of the Koran is questioned.

The reverberations have affected non-Muslim scholars in Western countries. "Between fear and political correctness, it's not possible to say anything other than sugary nonsense about Islam," said one scholar at an American university who asked not to be named, referring to the threatened violence as well as the widespread reluctance on United States college campuses to criticize other cultures.

While scriptural interpretation may seem like a remote and innocuous activity, close textual study of Jewish and Christian scripture played no small role in loosening the Church's domination on the intellectual and cultural life of Europe, and paving the way for unfettered secular thought. "The Muslims have the benefit of hindsight of the European experience, and they know very well that once you start questioning the holy scriptures, you don't know where it will stop," the scholar explained.

The touchiness about questioning the Koran predates the latest rise of Islamic militancy. As long ago as 1977, John Wansbrough of the School of Oriental and African Studies in London wrote that subjecting the Koran to "analysis by the instruments and techniques of biblical criticism is virtually unknown."

Mr. Wansbrough insisted that the text of the Koran appeared to be a composite of different voices or texts compiled over dozens if not hundreds of years. After all, scholars agree that there is no evidence of the Koran until 691 ? 59 years after Muhammad's death ? when the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem was built, carrying several Koranic inscriptions.

These inscriptions differ to some degree from the version of the Koran that has been handed down through the centuries, suggesting, scholars say, that the Koran may have still been evolving in the last decade of the seventh century. Moreover, much of what we know as Islam ? the lives and sayings of the Prophet ? is based on texts from between 130 and 300 years after Muhammad's death.

In 1977 two other scholars from the School for Oriental and African Studies at London University ? Patricia Crone (a professor of history at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton) and Michael Cook (a professor of Near Eastern history at Princeton University) ? suggested a radically new approach in their book "Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World."

Since there are no Arabic chronicles from the first century of Islam, the two looked at several non-Muslim, seventh-century accounts that suggested Muhammad was perceived not as the founder of a new religion but as a preacher in the Old Testament tradition, hailing the coming of a Messiah. Many of the early documents refer to the followers of Muhammad as "hagarenes," and the "tribe of Ishmael," in other words as descendants of Hagar, the servant girl that the Jewish patriarch Abraham used to father his son Ishmael.

In its earliest form, Ms. Crone and Mr. Cook argued, the followers of Muhammad may have seen themselves as retaking their place in the Holy Land alongside their Jewish cousins. (And many Jews appear to have welcomed the Arabs as liberators when they entered Jerusalem in 638.)

The idea that Jewish messianism animated the early followers of the Prophet is not widely accepted in the field, but "Hagarism" is credited with opening up the field. "Crone and Cook came up with some very interesting revisionist ideas," says Fred M. Donner of the University of Chicago and author of the recent book "Narratives of Islamic Origins: The Beginnings of Islamic Historical Writing." "I think in trying to reconstruct what happened, they went off the deep end, but they were asking the right questions."

The revisionist school of early Islam has quietly picked up momentum in the last few years as historians began to apply rational standards of proof to this material.

Mr. Cook and Ms. Crone have revised some of their early hypotheses while sticking to others. "We were certainly wrong about quite a lot of things," Ms. Crone said. "But I stick to the basic point we made: that Islamic history did not arise as the classic tradition says it does."


<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/arts/02ISLA.html" target="_blank">Radical New Views of Islam and the Origins of the Koran</a>
(Page 2 of 2)

By ALEXANDER STILLE


Ms. Crone insists that the Koran and the Islamic tradition present a fundamental paradox. The Koran is a text soaked in monotheistic thinking, filled with stories and references to Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Jesus, and yet the official history insists that Muhammad, an illiterate camel merchant, received the revelation in Mecca, a remote, sparsely populated part of Arabia, far from the centers of monotheistic thought, in an environment of idol-worshiping Arab Bedouins. Unless one accepts the idea of the angel Gabriel, Ms. Crone says, historians must somehow explain how all these monotheistic stories and ideas found their way into the Koran.

"There are only two possibilities," Ms. Crone said. "Either there had to be substantial numbers of Jews and Christians in Mecca or the Koran had to have been composed somewhere else."

Indeed, many scholars who are not revisionists agree that Islam must be placed back into the wider historical context of the religions of the Middle East rather than seeing it as the spontaneous product of the pristine Arabian desert. "I think there is increasing acceptance, even on the part of many Muslims, that Islam emerged out of the wider monotheistic soup of the Middle East," says Roy Mottahedeh, a professor of Islamic history at Harvard University.

Scholars like Mr. Luxenberg and Gerd- R. Puin, who teaches at Saarland University in Germany, have returned to the earliest known copies of the Koran in order to grasp what it says about the document's origins and composition. Mr. Luxenberg explains these copies are written without vowels and diacritical dots that modern Arabic uses to make it clear what letter is intended. In the eighth and ninth centuries, more than a century after the death of Muhammad, Islamic commentators added diacritical marks to clear up the ambiguities of the text, giving precise meanings to passages based on what they considered to be their proper context. Mr. Luxenberg's radical theory is that many of the text's difficulties can be clarified when it is seen as closely related to Aramaic, the language group of most Middle Eastern Jews and Christians at the time.

For example, the famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply "white." Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for "houri," which means virgin, but Mr. Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at least one respected dictionary of early Arabic, hur means "white raisin."

Mr. Luxenberg has traced the passages dealing with paradise to a Christian text called Hymns of Paradise by a fourth-century author. Mr. Luxenberg said the word paradise was derived from the Aramaic word for garden and all the descriptions of paradise described it as a garden of flowing waters, abundant fruits and white raisins, a prized delicacy in the ancient Near East. In this context, white raisins, mentioned often as hur, Mr. Luxenberg said, makes more sense than a reward of sexual favors.

In many cases, the differences can be quite significant. Mr. Puin points out that in the early archaic copies of the Koran, it is impossible to distinguish between the words "to fight" and "to kill." In many cases, he said, Islamic exegetes added diacritical marks that yielded the harsher meaning, perhaps reflecting a period in which the Islamic Empire was often at war.

A return to the earliest Koran, Mr. Puin and others suggest, might lead to a more tolerant brand of Islam, as well as one that is more conscious of its close ties to both Judaism and Christianity.

"It is serious and exciting work," Ms. Crone said of Mr. Luxenberg's work. Jane McAuliffe, a professor of Islamic studies at Georgetown University, has asked Mr. Luxenberg to contribute an essay to the Encyclopedia of the Koran, which she is editing.

Mr. Puin would love to see a "critical edition" of the Koran produced, one based on recent philological work, but, he says, "the word critical is misunderstood in the Islamic world ? it is seen as criticizing or attacking the text."

Some Muslim authors have begun to publish skeptical, revisionist work on the Koran as well. Several new volumes of revisionist scholarship, "The Origins of the Koran," and "The Quest for the Historical Muhammad," have been edited by a former Muslim who writes under the pen name Ibn Warraq. Mr. Warraq, who heads a group called the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society, makes no bones about having a political agenda. "Biblical scholarship has made people less dogmatic, more open," he said, "and I hope that happens to Muslim society as well."

But many Muslims find the tone and claims of revisionism offensive. "I think the broader implications of some of the revisionist scholarship is to say that the Koran is not an authentic book, that it was fabricated 150 years later," says Ebrahim Moosa, a professor of religious studies at Duke University, as well as a Muslim cleric whose liberal theological leanings earned him the animosity of fundamentalists in South Africa, which he left after his house was firebombed.

Andrew Rippin, an Islamicist at the University of Victoria in British Columbia, Canada, says that freedom of speech in the Islamic world is more likely to evolve from within the Islamic interpretative tradition than from outside attacks on it. Approaches to the Koran that are now branded as heretical ? interpreting the text metaphorically rather than literally ? were widely practiced in mainstream Islam a thousand years ago.

"When I teach the history of the interpretation it is eye-opening to students the amount of independent thought and diversity of interpretation that existed in the early centuries of Islam," Mr. Rippin says. "It was only in more recent centuries that there was a need for limiting interpretation."

[ 03-01-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #88 of 121
I haven't read through this thread, but I just saw the horrible movie Black Rain, where Michael Douglas is "heroically" portrayed as the most arrogant, conceited, America centric dickhead on the planet. The writers of this screenplay never cease to berate other cultures, and to portay the "gung ho" and CORRUPT American way of doing things as superior.

The sad thing is, I know a lot of fellow Americans who really do think we are superior in every way. No wonder I choose to live in a foreign country. I hate Americans, too. Oh, and the moronic election of George Bush Jr. and his ensuing policies didn't help much, either.
post #89 of 121
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>I haven't read through this thread, but I just saw the horrible movie Black Rain, where Michael Douglas is "heroically" portrayed as the most arrogant, conceited, America centric dickhead on the planet. The writers of this screenplay never cease to berate other cultures, and to portay the "gung ho" and CORRUPT American way of doing things as superior.

The sad thing is, I know a lot of fellow Americans who really do think we are superior in every way. No wonder I choose to live in a foreign country. I hate Americans, too. Oh, and the moronic election of George Bush Jr. and his ensuing policies didn't help much, either.</strong><hr></blockquote>


WTF are you talking about?
post #90 of 121
[quote]WTF are you talking about?<hr></blockquote>

about you!!!!!
Merdeka!
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post #91 of 121
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by sapi:
<strong>

about you!!!!! </strong><hr></blockquote>


I don't think I fit that description.
post #92 of 121
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>The sad thing is, I know a lot of fellow Americans who really do think we are superior in every way. No wonder I choose to live in a foreign country. I hate Americans, too. Oh, and the moronic election of George Bush Jr. and his ensuing policies didn't help much, either.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It must be tough to hate yourself like that.

Oh, and at least ou were man enough to leave the country when you decide dyou did not like what ws going on. I am still waiting for half of hollywood to make good on their threats to move to some ohter country too.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #93 of 121
I think tonton makes a very relevant point. Why do americans see themselves as so superior to the rest of the world?

i saw that movie to and liked it half way through, but then it dawned on me; This film actually portraits an american (or englishman) as a more perfect japanese then the japanese in the film...
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post #94 of 121
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>I think tonton makes a very relevant point. Why do americans see themselves as so superior to the rest of the world?

i saw that movie to and liked it half way through, but then it dawned on me; This film actually portraits an american (or englishman) as a more perfect japanese then the japanese in the film...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do we? If it's a question how can the point be "relevant"?
post #95 of 121
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Why do americans see themselves as so superior to the rest of the world?</strong><hr></blockquote>We don't. Well, maybe some do (ahem).

We're just ignorant of the rest of the world - we just don't care about the rest of the world, never think about it, don't even know it exists unless they bomb us or we bomb them.

We're pretty geographically isolated compared to Europe - some states are near Canada or Mexico, but for the most part our nearest neighbor is another state of the US, not another country. And while our big businesses have economic ties with lots of other countries, the average American's day-to-day life isn't much effected by what's going on outside the US.

We are defensive about criticism, though. I think it's because we don't care about other countries, and so we're surprised and shocked when someone criticizes us.
post #96 of 121
[quote]Approaches to the Koran that are now branded as heretical ? interpreting the text metaphorically rather than literally ? were widely practiced in mainstream Islam a thousand years ago.<hr></blockquote>

This is the real debate in all literature, whether you're talking about the Koran, the Constitution, the Bible, or any important text of this sort. Deconstruction is based on simply following strict interpretations to their logical, minute and usually ridiculuous conclusions. I despise nearly all forms of strict construction (all occasions of it I've come across). They ignore the message and worship the act.

Oh, and plase don't assume that all Americans are arrogant assholes who think they're superior to everyone. I do not think this way by any means, and I do not appreciate the label. This attitude only exacerbates the problem. Thanks.
post #97 of 121
&lt;autoexecute: ignore:scott&gt;

I am ofcourse not talking about everybody!

But it is quite interesting that while so many americans are clearly not really interested (or bothered) with the rest of the world. Your government is trying very hard to be part of almost every conflict that is out there... While you wonder why so much of the world hates your country, I'm wondering the exact opposit: How can you not know this?
How can you let your government screw up poor third world nations over and over again, like El Salvador, Chile, Vitnam etc. and NOT CARE ABOUT IT?

(again: I am not talking about every american here!)

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #98 of 121
[quote]But it is interesting that while so many americans are clearly not really interested (or bothered) with the rest of the world. Your government is trying very hard to be part of almost every conflict that is out there... While you wonder why so much of the world hates your contry, We are wondering why the exact opposit: How can you not know this?
How can you let your government screw up poor third world nations over and over again, like El Salvador, Chile, Vitnam etc. and NOT CARE ABOUT IT <hr></blockquote>

As for your list of countries at the end there.... many of us DID care very much about the US sponsored abuses in those countries. I, personally took part in numerous very vocal demonstrations BACK THEN. Each of your examples are dated though, and in each case were responces to the policy of containment that, due to its just purpose but blind means-ends logic, used extreme right-wings governments to combat communists.

Years after El Salvadore and Guatamala the US Government apologized for its support of Death squads.....but nobody noticed.

As for whether we are being a part of every conflict or not: I think that this belies a bias on your part.... you are looking for faults in the US policy. = Dog us when we are slow in Bosnia, or Rowanda, but then blame us when we try in Somalia and Kosovo or in other countries.
Blame us for support of Israel but look away at our funding of Egypt Yemen and many other 'third world' countries. etc etc.

Curse us when we are isolationist (which we are quite often, then blame us for trying to change the world when we step in against terrorism.

I think that there was an interesting article in the same issue of the times as the one posted by Scott, it was about the inherently imperialist nature of MASS CULTURE and its flood of kitsch.

I think most anti-Americanists are really responding to this phenomena AND
the effects of the World Bank and the IMF WHICH ARE WESTERN AND NOT MERELY AMERICAN --making the EU complicit there as well.

People from Scandanavia that 'hate' the US do so because they feel Americans are vulgar, don't understand the 'goodness' of a solid social-funding basis, are arrogant and are cultural Imperialists without a culture: of course they probably all listen to blues inspired rock-and-roll, admire funky road trip movies grounded in a progressive 'cowboy' ethic of free thinking, don't trust the immigrant populations that threaten their own 'racial' purity (whereas America is truly multicultural, it really is a melting pot whereas the Swedes are still insulting the Norwegians who are still smarting from the wit of the Fin's, and all of them are pretending to "accept" the Turks in their midts)
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post #99 of 121
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>People from Scandanavia that 'hate' the US do so because they feel Americans are vulgar, don't understand the 'goodness' of a solid social-funding basis, are arrogant and are cultural Imperialists without a culture: of course they probably all listen to blues inspired rock-and-roll, admire funky road trip movies grounded in a progressive 'cowboy' ethic of free thinking, don't trust the immigrant populations that threaten their own 'racial' purity (whereas America is truly multicultural, it really is a melting pot whereas the Swedes are still insulting the Norwegians who are still smarting from the wit of the Fin's, and all of them are pretending to "accept" the Turks in their midts)</strong><hr></blockquote>

A couple of points:

I really don´t know anyone who hates US. Some "hate" the politics, both foreign and domestic, but not "the average" american or large parts of american culture (beside mainstream Hollywood films, McD aso)

Those who are most US-skeptical is often those who listen to alternative music from US. BUT its not the same people who have a problem with immigrants.

The only person I know that truly hates america also think China has a good system. I think that speaks for itself.
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post #100 of 121
Thank Teddy Roosevelt and later our foray into WWII for our self-proclaimed role as "policemen" of the world. The Marshall Plan was supposed to help rebuild Europe and Asia post-colonialism, quickly getting our fingers into everyone's business becuase we were the only ones who could afford to help out.
post #101 of 121
Wow, my last post here completley disapeared. Thank yous to ScottH for showing us how easily racism can be hidden under so called "balenced arguments".
They hate us because their culture is backward and corrupt
Seriously folks. This is the same type of blatent racism that was practiced by the Nazis in WW2. Im not going to argue that there are some ****ed up religious fundementalists out there, but that is hardly reason to go spouting about how muslims hate us and their culture is wrong. You have the same ignorance and single sided blindness here in North America as in the east. Hell, look at how we managed to, more or less, ressurect the government that brought us such great things as the Iran-Contra fiasco.
Further how can you expect them to be pro-US when, on whim, the US decides to drop thousands of bombs on back water little country like Afghanistan because their leaders "endorsed the Al-Queda" (note: So did the US way back when). Innocent bystanders killed in a bombing raid (collateral dammage) on something like the Al-Queda have it just as bad as innocent Americans (horribly murrdered by the evil one) in the WTC. Each are equally innocent (If I remember correctly the majority of the the hi-jackers were Saudi's not Afghanistans), and each are suffering the same ordeals. Let us not start on the fact that the people killed by bombings arent "the main target" as was the case in the WTC attacks, that is beside the point, but rather try to understand that the hatred that you feel towards them is the very same hatred that they feel towards you. Perhaps we should concentrate less turning a country into ash in order to stop a terrorist group in it, and concentrate more on getting together with the UN and starting trade embargos on the countries that do this. Being a cop (especially a self designated cop) often means taking them down WITHOUT shooting them.

Now let us rather take a more laid back approach here. Some times being a part of a community (even a global one) means shaping your self to others, not others to your self. So let us not hate them in return, but rather understand where their hatred for us is coming from, and deal with eliminating that, rather than eliminating them. Indeed there is not all that much difference between us.

The ammount of racism in this thread astounds me.

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: The Toolboi ]</p>
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Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #102 of 121
[quote]Years after El Salvadore and Guatamala the US Government apologized for its support of Death squads.....but nobody noticed.<hr></blockquote>

The culprit for that could be called the media. You know how it works. Even if the apology were noticed, it doesn't matter much what anybody did about it or how the population felt or feels about it; it happened and that's that.
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post #103 of 121
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by The Toolboi:
<strong>Wow, my last post here completley disapeared. Thank yous to ScottH for showing us how easily racism can be hidden under so called "balenced arguments". </strong><hr></blockquote>


You're calling me a racist? Why? Because they are "different" and I am critical? Am I not allowed to criticize people of another race with out you using it as a tool to shut me up? But that's the truth of it isn't it? You read something you don't like and use the race card to shut the person up.
post #104 of 121
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>We don't. Well, maybe some do (ahem).

We're just ignorant of the rest of the world - we just don't care about the rest of the world, never think about it, don't even know it exists unless they bomb us or we bomb them.

We're pretty geographically isolated compared to Europe - some states are near Canada or Mexico, but for the most part our nearest neighbor is another state of the US, not another country. And while our big businesses have economic ties with lots of other countries, the average American's day-to-day life isn't much effected by what's going on outside the US.

We are defensive about criticism, though. I think it's because we don't care about other countries, and so we're surprised and shocked when someone criticizes us.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hummm? Lets see. Since 9-11 books on Islam, Middle-east, terrorist, bin laden and all that have skyrocketed in this country.

Now, let see, hummm... has the sale of books on the Christianity, the West, the US
skyrocketed in the middle east? I doubt it.

Of course after 9-11 criticism of our own country came from within our country. We are maybe the most self critical country in the world. And it was all published in the free press and read by many on the internet. Same thing happen in the middle east? No.

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #105 of 121
I will agree with The Toolboi about the racism underlying the article about the 'backward' countries. However we did not bomb Afghanistan on a whim. . . . it was the only measure available: our country was attacked and war was openly declared against us, there are times when measures that are "not nice" are needed, the murder of our civilians and the outright stated threat of continued murder is one of those times. America is a powerful country, but power is meaningless if we do nothing when we are killed in our own land.

[quote] when, on whim, the US decides to drop thousands of bombs on back water little country like Afghanistan because their leaders "endorsed the Al-Queda" (note: So did the US way back when).<hr></blockquote>

THey did not simply "endorse" Al Queda, the line between the two is very very blurry, and, clearly the Taliban were trying to play Al Queda's game and postpone what they thought we didn't have the courage to do: bomb them and mean it!

Also, your notions of the US support for the Taliban are wrong, We supported the Mujahadeen before the Taliban came into power in their fight against the Soviets . . . and even if it somhow were true, this is in no way would be relevant to what we should or should not do as measures of defense when war is declared upon us.

If we were being "nice" and carefull to the point of not risking the very regretable killing of civilians then this situation would be worse . . . worse in the long run and in the short: Al Queda would have won and the Muslim world would step further and further in line behind the idiotic radical ideas: and attacks would have been seen as worthwhile: resulting in more death, perhaps many many more --with nukes in the wrong hands.
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--Franklin Miller.

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #106 of 121
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by The Toolboi:
<strong>
They hate us because their culture is backward and corrupt
Seriously folks. This is the same type of blatent racism that was practiced by the Nazis in WW2.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please prove to me that the culture and government of Saudi Arabia is not backward and corrupt.
post #107 of 121
Please prove to me that the culture and government of Saudi Arabia is not backward and corrupt.

Scott, let me point something out to you as you either seem to be missing it, or ignoring it with talk about Saudi Arabia (which, yes, is ****ed up).

[quote]Because their culture is backward and corrupt.

Why the Muslims Misjudged Us
They hate us because their culture is backward and corrupt<hr></blockquote>

This is not saying "Saudi Arabians", its saying Muslims.

You're calling me a racist? Why? Because they are "different" and I am critical? Am I not allowed to criticize people of another race with out you using it as a tool to shut me up? But that's the truth of it isn't it? You read something you don't like and use the race card to shut the person up
You talk about liberal knee jearking eh?
I said that what you posted was racist. I also was attempting to point out that the hatred building towards the middle east right now is similar to that of Europe before WW2 towards the jews. Granted we dont have a Hitler yet to take it to an extreme, but who knows, theres always Rugh Limbauge

As for this thing you posted, it is both racist and sickeningly patriotic, almost to the point of self obsession (beyond the simple "hail to the king baby!" ways of normal US culture).

Hummm? Lets see. Since 9-11 books on Islam, Middle-east, terrorist, bin laden and all that have skyrocketed in this country.

Now, let see, hummm... has the sale of books on the Christianity, the West, the US
skyrocketed in the middle east? I doubt it.


Thats beside the point. Americans always have been a rather inner-focused country, which is apparent in everything from their foreign policy to their daily lives.
Granted, not nearly as badly as some other countries, but for a nation that prides its self as the greatest country in the world...

However we did not bomb Afghanistan on a whim. . . . it was the only measure available: our country was attacked and war was openly declared against us, there are times when measures that are "not nice" are needed, the murder of our civilians and the outright stated threat of continued murder is one of those times.

I know what your saying, but I dis agree with one point: "it was the only measure available". For one, it wasnt a country that declared war on us, it was a terrorist group, and also many civilians that were killed were part of a country that never openly was AT war with the US. Remember, we are there to "not to fight the people but the terrorists".

and even if it somhow were true, this is in no way would be relevant to what we should or should not do as measures of defense when war is declared upon us.

Ok, time for deeper research. Any how, my point was that we supported them way back, and the now were attacking Afghanistan for supporting them (ok, maybe a little more than supporting them ). I do seem to remember reading though that it was the anti-communist support of the US that that swept in a new government for Afghanistan and in so doing brought in the Muslim fundementalists such as the AQ.

any how, we're WAY off the purpose of my post, which was to say that rather than hate Muslims perhaps we should look at why they hate us (and no, its not simply that they are a "corrupt and backwards society").

If we were being "nice" and carefull to the point of not risking the very regretable killing of civilians then this situation would be worse . . . worse in the long run and in the short: Al Queda would have won and the Muslim world would step further and further in line behind the idiotic radical ideas: and attacks would have been seen as worthwhile: resulting in more death, perhaps many many more --with nukes in the wrong hands.

Uhh... it might be this head cold not allowing me to read properly, but did you just say that avoiding the killing of civilians would equate the AQ winning? And where did nukes come in? Granted I havent been watching the news lately (nor any other TV), did they get their hands on some? Or is this hearsay?
Also, are you saying that in this case peaceful means would not work, and that the only way to do this would be with bombs?
Personally Id like to see the army go in and take the bases out, but I fear what kind of situations that would arise (black hawk down anyone?).
I find it funny that of all the casualties the US Army has had so far only one has NOT been from friendly fire
To quote Weird Al "Well Im trigger happy, trigger happy all of the time"

Oh, and sapi
the majority here is from the USA.
I hope this doesn't reflect their society.

Ive been saying this about AI for a while now

Also, its not that other countries hate the US, thats not so, but rather they hate the blatent US patriotism that convinces them that they are the best country in the world. Other people dont like to be told that they are second rate, and it seems to be a key part of american patriotism.
Other than that, I know that theres a lot of hatred towards the American government, though no more than towards the Canadian government. One example of this is over NAFTA, you know that due to this UPS was able to sue the Canadian government because the national Canadian postal service? Seems that being national (you know, government run) gave them and unfair advantage over UPS in Canada. But thats a little off topic, fun but off topic

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: The Toolboi ]</p>
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post #108 of 121
and to go further on this; I'm shocked in how you guys generalize by saying muslims hate us, muslim culture is backward and corrupt, muslims etc.. you guys, and you too Scott, do seem to think muslims are all the same in their way of dealing with islam and what they think of the USA.

with your eductation (especially you Scott) you should be more open minded and more looking at facts with your head instead of your hart (but maybe you're too scared, which I can also understand BTW)

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: sapi ]</p>
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post #109 of 121
pfflam: Good post, I agree with most of what your saying. AND: I do have a lot of love for the US. I love NYC, the MAC, hiphop, jazz & funk... You know that!

I do wonder why the US keeps on making alliences and backing undemocratic regims all over the world ( right now: Saudi Arabia and a LOT of former Soviet republics... We all know last weeks good allies).

Scott: Internet is available in the middle-east, INTER NET - get it?
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post #110 of 121
I do wonder why the US keeps on making alliences and backing undemocratic regims all over the world ( right now: Saudi Arabia and a LOT of former Soviet republics... We all know last weeks good allies).

Same reason why other countries do the EXACT same thing... it suits them at that time and that place.
post #111 of 121
and to go further on this; I'm shocked in how you guys generalize by saying muslims hate us, muslim culture is backward and corrupt, muslims etc..

I thought that that was the POINT of my post
Man, I really need to learn t ostay on my specific argument instead of branching off
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post #112 of 121
[quote]...but rather they hate the blatent US patriotism that convinces them that they are the best country in the world.<hr></blockquote>

And patriotism is so wrong? That is, plainly stated, a pretty stupid thing to say. Everyone is entitled to be patriotic.

Anyway, I still have one question: what should we have done after 9-11? All we do is wrong. Seems to be the general pattern of morality is this: People kill Americans: "You had it coming!" American kill the people who are trying to kill us: "Murderers! Warmongers! Aroogant SOBs!" The next move in this little game of checkers (this isn't chess by any stretch) is: Americans are killed, and "you had it coming!"

Bunch of hypocrites defending murderers and chastising the US for protecting its people. (and I don't mean Muslims, but I think that point has been lost -- people read what they weant to read, not what's written)
post #113 of 121
I havebeen in contact with someone who is working with foreign exchange students here in the states: it seems that they are all absolutely blown away at what they see as an absurd amount of completely un-ironic flag waving patriotism. Something which they equate with only ultra-nationalism and border-line fascism back home in their countries.

I tend to think that it is less such an extreme situation, considering the recent tragedy, however if it continues to go on un-reflectively in the flag waving direction I too will have to agree that it might start to portend a really ugly political attitude. A little sense of togetherness, an acknowledgement of a shared history and dilemma at least, is OK, but, I could imagine that if it gets too symbolic and unreflective for too long it will start to create an environment hostile to America itself and other countries and people as well . . . .

and now this:
[quote] but did you just say that avoiding the killing of civilians would equate the AQ winning? <hr></blockquote>

yes, I daid too much caution, meaning not going in to stop the AQ because of fear that we may hurt civilians would have resulted in two forms of their winning:
1. they would have succeeded in the largest PR stunt in history, making the US appear weak and thereby allowing the allure of their brand of fanaticism to shine without contest. They would grow, and, even other Islamic states would see the merit in their hate, but more imporantly, they would have much more time and the development or acquisition of deadlier weapons would just be a natural progression
2. They would still exist and no measure of diplomacy would have made them go away.

[quote] Also, are you saying that in this case peaceful means would not work, and that the only way to do this would be with bombs?<hr></blockquote>

If by this you are asking if I am talking about the US using nukes then I am emphatically NOT saying that!!
but,
If you are asking: do I think that if we used peacefull means of shutting down the Al Queda and not bombers, would we have failed? then yes, I am saying that: we needed to bomb otherwise Al Queda would still exist and in the long run it would be worse for everybody on the entire globe.

As for over-patriotism: I think that many non Americans might be surprised that us Americans can have a healthy sceptisism in relation to that phenomena: and that many of us are also aware of how arrogant the US can seem to be.
AND
at the same time still love our country
. . . I also love other countries too...

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #114 of 121
And patriotism is so wrong? That is, plainly stated, a pretty stupid thing to say. Everyone is entitled to be patriotic.



Ok, let me rephrase this, its not the over the top stuff, eg. most of that paper that Scott posted. Quite frankly if you see your self as the symbol of democracy and freedom you are being egotistical. This is the image that the US portrays to the rest of the world.
Now granted I know a lot of Americans (I am American my self) who dont think that this is true, but its still the image that American media and press makes, and it is a fact that it is that very same press that has spread its roots (or in this case cable lines) all over the world.

Pfflam, you and your friend are touching on exactly what Im talking about.

they would have succeeded in the largest PR stunt in history, making the US appear weak and thereby allowing the allure of their brand of fanaticism to shine without contest

Eh? Is this one of those superiority complex over insecurity things? No one sees the states as weaker because of what happened.

As for the bombs, to each their own. If you beleive in creating peave by killing people, I wont argue with you.
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #115 of 121
[quote] Eh? Is this one of those superiority complex over insecurity things? No one sees the states as weaker because of what happened.<hr></blockquote>

No.. what OBL wanted to have happen was that we would react but would hesitate because of fears of world and public reactions. But we would have responded but feebly, thus it would appear that OBL and the Al Queda need not fear that they were doing something with real consequences to themselves and to their ideals. It would be seen as semi-legitimizing what they believe by not emphatically reacting with all available force. Besides the fact that it would stop further action and recruitment for further actions.

One thing I feel it is necessary to point out, I am usually very pacifistic in my perspectives --I usally believe in non-violence, this is a situation that demanded immediate and swift action and postponing it by arguing endlessly with Omar's spokesman would have merely allowed things to get worse in all the manners that I have touched on already.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #116 of 121
Most Arabs see Israel quite fairly as no better than terrorists. Many hate America for their support. If America came out and said Israel as much to blame in this as anybody else progress might get made. Unfortunately people see America as unfairly supporting Israel and they are correct America does.

Nothing to do with any jealousy just the fact it is hard to like a country that knowingly targets innocents in retaliation to strikes by extremists.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Also, they don't like how foreign people are constantly in their muslim and holy territory. They just want to be isolated. I don't know why this is so much to ask for. But primarily, it is because of Israel.

Uh, land isn't holy. Maybe if you pray to the boogey man 5 times a day he should be able to protect you from the evil west instead of starving their own people because of their own GREED. They want to be isolated? They're xenophobic? So they DON'T want any of our sweet sweet money huh? I don't buy that one bit. They're USERS. They use us to get rich. But only very few get rich. The rest live in putrid poverty that should make us all ashamed. Do they help their own people? Nope and they get mad at US when we try! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ironically your post illustrates well one of the reasons Amercia is so hated, hypocrisy.

No such thing as holy land? Ever tried to arrange development on Indian lands? In Australia, where I am originally from, a huge amount of effort goes into discussions for development if it will effect Aboriginal holy lands. Every country virtually has sacred and holy areas.

Before we get into poverty do you even know the number of people in the US below the poverty line? Are you even aware of how many people control the majority of the wealth in America?

Ironically it is America that has money and capitalism at it's very heart. America is the one who has placed the dollar at its very heart.

So they want to be isolationalist, that is their right. Who are you to say they shouldn't be permitted to?

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>That's middle east graditude! I'm sick of these children. They're irrational, petty zealots. If these idiots are so infused with peace why can't they find a peaceful solution?? Because they are all full of bologna! End of story. That's all she wrote.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This cracked me up it really did. More civilian lives have been lost in Afghanistan from American bombings than all the lives lost in the World Trade Center collapse.

You insult Arabs for not talking about peace yet it is America that is leading the war. As the King of Jordan stated, perhaps America should look at their what in their foreign policy is causing this hatred before they go to war.

Too many Americans are hypocrites

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
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post #117 of 121
Thread Starter 
Well, the "Blame America Crowd" (tm) is in full swing here. "If only the US would do this and not do that then there would be no problem or things would be much better"

Crap. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />


Let's do everything we can to deflect blame from where it belongs.
post #118 of 121
No such thing as holy land? Ever tried to arrange development on Indian lands? In Australia, where I am originally from, a huge amount of effort goes into discussions for development if it will effect Aboriginal holy lands. Every country virtually has sacred and holy areas.

Doesn't change my view that land is property and fighting over how holy it is is absurd. These things are best left in the middle ages.

Before we get into poverty do you even know the number of people in the US below the poverty line? Are you even aware of how many people control the majority of the wealth in America?

Are YOU aware or were you not even willing to pull some numbers out of your *** ? I'll give you some numbers. According to this little known group <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty00/table5.html" target="_blank">US Cencus Burough</a> the percent of people in the US below the poverty level is between 10 and 18% depending on if you include certain taxes taken after wages. Here's a <a href="http://www.ibge.gov.br/poverty/santiago.htm" target="_blank">site</a> that shows we are about average with other industrial capitalist nations. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_906000/906238.stm" target="_blank">This</a> is interesting too.

And can you tell me the breakdown of people that control the majoraty of the wealth in the US? I doubt it's anything like Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or even pray tell , Iraq.

Ironically it is America that has money and capitalism at it's very heart. America is the one who has placed the dollar at its very heart.

Yeah? Cry me a river. It's the whole idea behind capitalism; work hard and you get more money. People are going to love money even if they live somewhere where they cannot acheive it. Then they either move here to the US, Europe or Japan or pout and bitch at the US and the money hungry Americans. Thats a reason why communism can't work in practice. People are always going to want more. But that's human nature, to aquire all that you can so you feel secure.

So they want to be isolationalist, that is their right. Who are you to say they shouldn't be permitted to?

I never said it's not their right. But if they were truly isolationalist they wouldn't be emmigrating to other countries to blow stuff up.
post #119 of 121
No Outsider you are wrong about somethings:

first Communism doesn't work because it is founded on an idea of what Human Nature is

Capitalism seems to work better than other systems because it has no fixed notion of what human nature is: it allows for the open re-expression of humanity --when practiced within balanced proportions whose goals are to maintain that openness.

also, I think that you revealed, unknowingly, something that shows what is truly awfull in the too doctinaire embrace of Capitalism, namely that it reduces all objects and values to commodity exchange values, when you said:
"Doesn't change my view that land is property"

If everything is only commodity value then your notion that human nature is also this kind of fixed quotient is just as bad as Communism's intrinsicly Totalitarian ideology --only its a Totalitarianism of the Commodity value.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #120 of 121
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>
first Communism doesn't work because it is founded on an idea of what Human Nature is</strong><hr></blockquote>

Huh? If so, the idea is wrong. I mean, I could have the idea that you have two heads and speak fluent Gaelic but if I based too many decisions on that idea I probably wouldn't be very successful. Maybe that's the problem with Communism! Anything in Das Kapital about Gaelic?
shooby doo, shooby doo
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shooby doo, shooby doo
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