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Will Obama get a second term? - Page 2

Poll Results: Will Obama get a second term?

Poll expired: Apr 16, 2010  
  • 37% (9)
    NO!
  • 62% (15)
    Yes.
24 Total Votes  
post #41 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

It's invested. In the market... In companies like Apple, allowing them to employ people and make decent products. Also in crappy companies like GM or an airline, allowing them to employ people even though they can't make a decent product.

And the NASDAQ and the Dow are over priced already. The multi million dollar artwork, antiques, gold and other commodities they buy do next to nothing to create jobs just like their savings/investments (financial). Obviously with all that wealth, some of their investments particularly in their own businesses and in creating new one's does create some jobs. However far more could be created by putting that money to good use instead of inflating already inflated investments. The super rich are really vampires sucking jobs out of existence for their personal gain.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #42 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The multi million dollar artwork, antiques, gold and other commodities they buy do next to nothing to create jobs just like their savings/investments (financial).

Really? Please explain the reasoning behind this conclusion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The super rich are really vampires* sucking jobs out of existence for their personal gain.

And I assume this line isn't it, but I could be totally wrong because this looks like what passes for reasoning in many circles these days.

P.S. The only people I know that actually fit that characterization are working in Washington (and many of the state houses across the country). The phrase "vampires sucking jobs out of existence for their personal gain" fits almost perfectly though I'd phrase it a bit more generally: "vampires sucking wealth out of existence for their personal gain."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #43 of 174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Really? Please explain the reasoning behind this conclusion.




And I assume this line isn't it, but I could be totally wrong because this looks like what passes for reasoning in many circles these days.

P.S. The only people I know that actually fit that characterization are working in Washington (and many of the state houses across the country). The phrase "vampires sucking jobs out of existence for their personal gain" fits almost perfectly though I'd phrase it a bit more generally: "vampires sucking wealth out of existence for their personal gain."

Sure take a painting. One day it's worth $50,000 then it's worth $100,000. Not one single job has been created but that investment has just made them money (though in this example the upside is the seller of the painting will then have money to spend). The same largely goes for their stocks all $3.7 trillion of them the top 1% of American's had in 2004 (as opposed to the $2.1 trillion the bottom 90% owned) . That money makes them money but it doesn't create jobs. The NASDAQ and the Dow are already way over priced. Some estimates put that overpricing at 100:1 and 10:1 respectively.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #44 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

(though in this example the upside is the seller of the painting will then have money to spend).

Bingo. So you've already dealt your theory one blow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The same largely goes for their stocks all $3.7 trillion of them the top 1% of American's had in 2004 (as opposed to the $2.1 trillion the bottom 90% owned) . That money makes them money but it doesn't create jobs.

Says who? Why? Please explain your reasoning. You haven't so far. All you've done so far is demonstrate that when someone spends money on something you disagree with (like an expensive painting) that money goes to the seller who is able to spend it on things they want or need.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Bingo. So you've already dealt your theory one blow.



Says who? Why? Please explain your reasoning. You haven't so far. All you've done so far is demonstrate that when someone spends money on something you disagree with (like an expensive painting) that money goes to the seller who is able to spend it on things they want or need.

No, I'm a fine art photographer, represented by some well established galleries. Over the last 5 years I've taken up painting too and am hoping to get them shown somewhere. I'd be more than grateful if someone wanted to pay me $100,000 for one of those paintings!

Obviously the stock market can create money for people, which they can then spend, like the painting. The reality is though that most of the profits made just go into more stock investments. The company share price goes up but the companies just the same. If the company owns stock then it's stock is worth more which it can sell or get loans against but the stocks themselves are really doing very little to create job growth. All that's really happening is some people are getting richer when those same dollars could have been used to invest in new businesses or simply spent.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #46 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sure take a painting. One day it's worth $50,000 then it's worth $100,000. Not one single job has been created but that investment has just made them money (though in this example the upside is the seller of the painting will then have money to spend). The same largely goes for their stocks all $3.7 trillion of them the top 1% of American's had in 2004 (as opposed to the $2.1 trillion the bottom 90% owned) . That money makes them money but it doesn't create jobs. The NASDAQ and the Dow are already way over priced. Some estimates put that overpricing at 100:1 and 10:1 respectively.

So how did the value change from $50k to $100k? What did the guy who has the $100k to give for the painting do to get that money? What does the guy who nets the $50k on the $100k sale do with his money?

Don't forget though on a nice capital gain like that, $10k goes to the government before anyone else get anything.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #47 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No, I'm a fine art photographer, represented by some well established galleries. Over the last 5 years I've taken up painting too and am hoping to get them shown somewhere. I'd be more than grateful if someone wanted to pay me $100,000 for one of those paintings!

Obviously the stock market can create money for people, which they can then spend, like the painting. The reality is though that most of the profits made just go into more stock investments. The company share price goes up but the companies just the same. If the company owns stock then it's stock is worth more which it can sell or get loans against but the stocks themselves are really doing very little to create job growth. All that's really happening is some people are getting richer when those same dollars could have been used to invest in new businesses or simply spent.

The price doesn't just go up and the company is the same. Most prices reflect historic prices to earnings ratios for those companies within their respective fields. Tech traditionally tolerates a higher multiplier for this but for the average from what I recall is 15x earnings historically. So for the price to go up, the company has to earn more. People will sometimes take a chance on and preemptively buy based of their forecast of what the company will earn but there is nothing wrong with that. If Apple is earning $2.00 a share and their stock price reflects that and you think $2.25 is a safe bet based on iPad pre-orders, then you invest early. If you are wrong then you get punished for attempting to invest in that company and if you are right you are rewarded.

Please do some reading in this area.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #48 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The reality is though that most of the profits made just go into more stock investments.

And this bad because?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The company share price goes up but the companies just the same.

Right. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you really don't seem to know what you're talking about here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If the company owns stock then it's stock is worth more which it can sell or get loans against but the stocks themselves are really doing very little to create job growth. All that's really happening is some people are getting richer when those same dollars could have been used to invest in new businesses or simply spent.

Or here.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #49 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Don't forget though on a nice capital gain like that, $10k goes to the government before anyone else get anything.

Right, but that's not, you know, being like a vampire or anything.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #50 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So how did the value change from $50k to $100k? What did the guy who has the $100k to give for the painting do to get that money? What does the guy who nets the $50k on the $100k sale do with his money?

Don't forget though on a nice capital gain like that, $10k goes to the government before anyone else get anything.

In this case the paintings likely to go up just because the artist has had another show, sold more work or got into a more exclusive gallery. I'm sure you know that stocks fluctuate on speculation of one kind or the other. Trillions can be lost, as were recently, but the number of employees of those businesses remained roughly the same. It's betting, that's all it is and it can be destructive as well, especially to the smaller investor.

The rich end up being rich in large part from the businesses they own. They then take those profits and invest the majority of it in stocks. If that money was instead invested back into the economy, by setting up new businesses, or a myriad of other ways, it would produce jobs at a much higher rate than stocks.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #51 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Right, but that's not, you know, being like a vampire or anything.

Bush lowered the percentage to 15% on stocks.
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #52 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

And this bad because?




Right. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you really don't seem to know what you're talking about here.



Or here.

Oh really, please explain why you think I'm so wrong.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

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post #53 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The rich end up being rich in large part from the businesses they own. They then take those profits and invest the majority of it in stocks. If that money was instead invested back into the economy, by setting up new businesses, or a myriad of other ways, it would produce jobs at a much higher rate than stocks.

Are you even reading what you're writing here?

Let's re-write some of this so maybe you can better understand what you've just said.

"The rich end up being rich in large part from the businesses they own." = People get rich largely by owning businesses.

"They then take those profits and invest the majority of it in stocks." = The profits earned from owning a business in reinvested in owning other businesses.

"If that money was instead invested back into the economy" = false premise so conclusion statement is questionable
(The money is re-invested in "the economy")

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post #54 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Bush lowered the percentage to 15% on stocks.

So he lowered the rate of blood sucking. Yes.

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post #55 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So he lowered the rate of blood sucking. Yes.

No the opposite. He encouraged people to invest in stocks instead of investing in jobs.
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #56 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Oh really, please explain why you think I'm so wrong.

First is your premise that the stock price of a company goes up (or down) for no reasons intrinsic to changes in the company's assets, income, profits or operations is simply false. You can read up this stuff yourself.

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post #57 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The price doesn't just go up and the company is the same. Most prices reflect historic prices to earnings ratios for those companies within their respective fields. Tech traditionally tolerates a higher multiplier for this but for the average from what I recall is 15x earnings historically. So for the price to go up, the company has to earn more. People will sometimes take a chance on and preemptively buy based of their forecast of what the company will earn but there is nothing wrong with that. If Apple is earning $2.00 a share and their stock price reflects that and you think $2.25 is a safe bet based on iPad pre-orders, then you invest early. If you are wrong then you get punished for attempting to invest in that company and if you are right you are rewarded.

Please do some reading in this area.

That's all irrelevant to this discussion.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #58 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No the opposite. He encouraged people to invest in stocks instead of investing in jobs.

You crack me up. I'm now convinced you are being deliberately obtuse for purposes of argumentation.

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post #59 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

First is your premise that the stock price of a company goes up (or down) for no reasons intrinsic to changes in the company's assets, income, profits or operations is simply false. You can read up this stuff yourself.

That's not what I said, though obviously that can happen. There's no doubt that the stock market is way way overpriced though. Of course there are reasons why stocks fluctuate, but again that's irrelevant.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #60 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You crack me up. I'm now convinced you are being deliberately obtuse for purposes of argumentation.

It shows how little you know.
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post #61 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

There's no doubt that the stock market is way way overpriced though.

According to who? Based on what? Explain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Of course there are reasons why stocks fluctuate, but again that's irrelevant.

But you claimed that a company's stock price increased but the company hasn't changed. Explain this.

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post #62 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It shows how little you know.

I was being hopeful and optimistic. Now I have no other conclusion to come to than you just don't know what you're talking abut. There are plenty of opportunities for you to learn though. Good luck with that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #63 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Are you even reading what you're writing here?

Let's re-write some of this so maybe you can better understand what you've just said.

"The rich end up being rich in large part from the businesses they own." = People get rich largely by owning businesses.

"They then take those profits and invest the majority of it in stocks." = The profits earned from owning a business in reinvested in owning other businesses.

"If that money was instead invested back into the economy" = false premise so conclusion statement is questionable
(The money is re-invested in "the economy")

As far as I can tell all your arguing here is that investing in stocks is just as good for job growth as other investments, which it definitely isn't.
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post #64 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

As far as I can tell all your arguing here is that investing in stocks is just as good for job growth as other investments, which it definitely isn't.

Then tell us why and prove your claim.

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post #65 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Then tell us why and prove your claim.

Look at how jobs are created. It's blindingly obvious that investing in stocks will only have a very limited potential for job growth whilst other investments create jobs. Where have you been?
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post #66 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Look at how jobs are created. It's blindingly obvious that investing in stocks will only have a very limited potential for job growth whilst other investments create jobs. Where have you been?

Ahhh... the ever popular "it's obvious" argument. What can stand up to this stunning reasoning?!?!

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post #67 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ahhh... the ever popular "it's obvious" argument. What can stand up to this stunning reasoning?!?!



It's also worth noting that many stocks go up because companies cut their workforce leaving more people unemployed. They often employ low wage earners abroad like India and China too to increase their profits, hence share price.
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #68 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's also worth noting that many stocks go up because companies cut their workforce leaving more people unemployed. They often employ low wage earners abroad like India and China too to increase their profits, hence share price.

Indeed this is true. And what conclusion do you draw from this?

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post #69 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Indeed this is true. And what conclusion do you draw from this?

They're more reasons why investing in the stock market is not as effective as investing in other areas.
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post #70 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

They're more reasons why investing in the stock market is not as effective as investing in other areas.

Brilliant! \

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post #71 of 174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Brilliant! \

Indeed so brilliant I can't understand why you couldn't have worked the reasoning out for yourself
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post #72 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

And the NASDAQ and the Dow are over priced already. The multi million dollar artwork, antiques, gold and other commodities they buy do next to nothing to create jobs just like their savings/investments (financial). Obviously with all that wealth, some of their investments particularly in their own businesses and in creating new one's does create some jobs. However far more could be created by putting that money to good use instead of inflating already inflated investments. The super rich are really vampires sucking jobs out of existence for their personal gain.

Odd... you picked "top 10%" earlier ... some studies tell me I'm in that group... but I sure don't feel "super rich".

No artwork (aside from what my children produce ), no antiques (unless you count my 20 year old car... a daily driver, not a collectible)...
Stock market investments really DO provide working capital to the businesses in which we invest. Commodity purchases really do serve a purpose as far as giving the producers (farmers) some ability to plan what they will be able to sell their product for several months down the road.

You may think my savings don't contribute to the economy... but what they DO accomplish is: they will keep me from being a DRAIN on the economy in the future... I will be able to retire without Social Security... I will be able to take care of my medical needs without any help from the government... I won't be using food stamps or subsidized housing. There IS a long term (as well as short term) benefit to having a population of savers rather than debtors.

Giving my money to the government only serves to make that money work less efficiently... HUGELY less efficiently. Leave me with disposable income and I will support the economy and create jobs by buying iPads, food, furniture, houses, etc. Giving it to the government first only adds a middle man... less of that money will make it into the economy so it will "create" fewer jobs.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #73 of 174
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Odd... you picked "top 10%" earlier ... some studies tell me I'm in that group... but I sure don't feel "super rich".

No artwork (aside from what my children produce ), no antiques (unless you count my 20 year old car... a daily driver, not a collectible)...
Stock market investments really DO provide working capital to the businesses in which we invest. Commodity purchases really do serve a purpose as far as giving the producers (farmers) some ability to plan what they will be able to sell their product for several months down the road.

You may think my savings don't contribute to the economy... but what they DO accomplish is: they will keep me from being a DRAIN on the economy in the future... I will be able to retire without Social Security... I will be able to take care of my medical needs without any help from the government... I won't be using food stamps or subsidized housing. There IS a long term (as well as short term) benefit to having a population of savers rather than debtors.

Giving my money to the government only serves to make that money work less efficiently... HUGELY less efficiently. Leave me with disposable income and I will support the economy and create jobs by buying iPads, food, furniture, houses, etc. Giving it to the government first only adds a middle man... less of that money will make it into the economy so it will "create" fewer jobs.

If your a pilot then your likely not to be in the super rich category. The top 1% of America's richest families in 2004 had $16.8 trillion of wealth and the group that you're likely in, the bottom 90%, had wealth of just $15.3 trillion. People like you fall into a different category. Your highly taxed and yet you don't make that much money. The people earning larger figures are taxed at roughly the same rate as you, indeed many of them because they own their own businesses will pay less with a good accountant even though their making much more.
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post #74 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

It hasn't happened yet.

So he'll be impeached for something he didn't do?

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post #75 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If your a pilot then your likely not to be in the super rich category. The top 1% of America's richest families in 2004 had $16.8 trillion of wealth and the group that you're likely in, the bottom 90%...

Interesting. Are you doing this deliberately?

KingOfSomewhereHot said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

Odd... you picked "top 10%" earlier ... some studies tell me I'm in that group... but I sure don't feel "super rich".

Which was likely in reference to what you said earlier, which was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Most of the super wealthy in the US have a lot of money locked up that should really be in the economy stimulating job growth. I'm all for encouraging saving, but it's different when there's billions just stashed away. If the top 10% paid more in taxes, which they can well afford their could be huge investments in businesses through the government, thereby growing those businesses and providing jobs. New high speed trains, new solar power plants, new infrastructure, new school and university funding and on.

But in this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If your a pilot then your likely not to be in the super rich category. The top 1% of America's richest families in 2004 had $16.8 trillion of wealth and the group that you're likely in, the bottom 90%...

you've not only changed from the top 10% to to the top 1%, you've also simply ignored the remainder of the top 10% by jumping to the bottom 90%.

I'm not sure you're doing this deliberately, sliding all over the place, or moving the goal line when someone comes up and says "Hey, I'm in the top 10% and I'm not super wealthy!" because it puts a dent in your caricature of the rich. But, just so we're clear, in your view who are the rich" and the "super rich" (setting aside that these are subjective and relative terms anyway)?

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post #76 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

So he'll be impeached for something he didn't do?

I believe the implication and prediction was that he would be impeached for something he hasn't yet done but will do and is impeachable.

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post #77 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

"Hey, I'm in the top 10% and I'm not super wealthy!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona..._United_States

You can be in the income $77,500 to $79,999 range and you will still be in the top 10%

6.4% make $100,000 or more.
post #78 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona..._United_States

You can be in the income $77,500 to $79,999 range and you will still be in the top 10%

6.4% make $100,000 or more.

Exactly! What Democrats and liberals call "the rich" is surprisingly not rich. It's all about if someone makes more than me they are rich and should be taxed more. Call it "envy economics."

Ah well, let's just soak the rich. Let's see how that works out for us.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #79 of 174
I wonder what the average income of a GOP supporter is? Compare that to the efforts the GOP goes to to protect the wealthy by lying to the millions that that is what is best for them.

Sara is supposedly having a photo-op with Bachmann for special guests... who pay $10,000 for the honor. Didn't she spend many mouth hours telling people how she was just like them? Wonder how many of her supporters can (1) ask for $10,000 for a photo op or (2) afford such an op? She's also seeking a pretty penny per episode for the TV show she's trying to put together. If she truly were one of "us" and wanted to be so, then she wouldn't asked be chasing the big bucks.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #80 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Compare that to the efforts the GOP goes to to protect the wealthy by lying to the millions that that is what is best for them.

Sara is supposedly having a photo-op with Bachmann for special guests... who pay $10,000 for the honor. Didn't she spend many mouth hours telling people how she was just like them? Wonder how many of her supporters can (1) ask for $10,000 for a photo op or (2) afford such an op? She's also seeking a pretty penny per episode for the TV show she's trying to put together. If she truly were one of "us" and wanted to be so, then she wouldn't asked be chasing the big bucks.

It is astonishing that you seem to see this kind of thing as only an attribute of the GOP.

Tell me, is it intentional blindness on your part that prevents you from seeing Democrats trying to protect the wealthy and special interests while lying to the millions that that is what is best for them or having high dollar fundraisers and accumulating great wealth all while portraying themselves as populist every day, "regular Joe," commoners?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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