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Apple has pre-sold "hundreds of thousands" of iPads - Page 6

post #201 of 209
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Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

I'm using the 1.6GHz Atom as the worst case for the HP. It may be a dual core Atom. It could be a ULV Core-series chip but it's unlikely due to price.

There's no reason to assume the worst for the slate. It has to run win7, go ahead and assume the best case. it doesn't matter that much given that iOS is far more efficient than win7 because it is designed for a mobile environment. Windows Phone 7 is a far better contender for the slate than the desktop win7 but then you lose the primary advantage of being on the Atom...Windows app.

That's not a bad trade given that many Windows apps will perform poorly anyway without a keyboard and mouse.

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It's from the Brushes user manual.

That would have been easier than the bogus math. I looked briefly can you tell me where in the manual?

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Ah, so you value the opinions of internet strangers over your own logic.

No, I value the statements of others over YOUR logic.

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That link you pointed to is wrong . The export canvases are large. the drawing canvases are small - just open Photoshop and check your RAM usage drawing on various image sizes (oh and before you do the whole 'it's not mobile optimized', images use the same on any device). It's not rocket science. But here's a link if you prefer:

1024x768 canvas = 786432 bytes x 2 (for 16 bits) = ~1.6MB x 5 layers = ~8MB.

Canvas size is not really THAT a huge memory user. Photoshop uses a lot of memory for what it does and it can handle 30K x 30K imagery...which would be about 900M.

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http://graphicssoft.about.com/od/iph.../gr/layers.htm

"Layers allows you to work with a rectangular canvas of 320x480 pixels, or a square canvas of 512x512 pixels, and up to five layers."

Maybe you should send the developers a link from Google about clipping as they clearly haven't heard about it.

That's Layers and I don't recall if it is vector or raster. 512x512 = 262144 or 256KB.

Perhaps you can explain how different a drawing canvas is in comparison to a map canvas? And yet, somehow, I'm able to pan and zoom across a huge canvas in my GPS apps. Gee, is it because they only load the image areas they need?

And yes, I've written a simple drawing app to draw overlays on a map canvas and stored as vectors (strokes). The memory use for the drawing itself is driven by the points stored and the line data.

A line 10 pixels long takes the same space as a line 10000 pixels long.

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It does due to the glass layer but it only requires a small offset.

The glass offset is an artifact, not a feature.

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We're talking about finger use on the iPad and an offset being preferred. But by all means don't take my word for it. Here's a post from a Brushes user in the last link I posted:

"Thanks everybody! and yes strictly done with Brushes, no post work on any other soft. Done with the POGO stylus and a lot of 800% zooms to compensate for the lack of offset on the brush "

A POGO stylus is rather thick. Brushes was designed for a finger and there is no offset. The point is that YOU states that an offset was DESIRED even for things like the Cintiq. It is not.

The desire for a stylus is for finer detail work as you can do with a pen on paper vs say...a finger or brush. Having a pen about the same thickness of a finger doesn't help that much with that so zoom is desired. The offset isn't DESIRED as much as a work around when you do not have the same fine control of a fine tip. You can't SEE the fine line being drawn if the stylus is as thick as an unsharpened pencil. With a sharpened pencil (or stylus) then you do not need or want an offset from the drawing tip to the paper.

As it applies to the slate vs ipad, if the HP slate doesn't have a digitizer then it won't be any better than the iPad for artists desiring to draw fine lines directly.

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It doesn't matter if it's SSD or HDD, SSD isn't the same as the mobile Flash memory in the iPad. Plus it has to be one or the other to support a desktop OS. It will likely be 1.8" storage.

I showed this to be false to Mel a long long time ago by showing the exact same flash chips from images of the iPod Nano and the Samsung SSD they were selling. Same part numbers on the flash modules can be seen in both.

SOME SSD are different (SLC) but they tend to be much more expensive than their mass market MLC counterparts. For example the Intel X-25Ms are MLC.

The odds that the HP Slate will be using SLC SSDs is very remote.
post #202 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

That would have been easier than the bogus math. I looked briefly can you tell me where in the manual?

The 'bogus' math came from the manual. They have a screenshot at 600%, count the pixel blocks and scale it up to get the native canvas resolution. Zoom in on your iPhone or iPod and count the blocks if you prefer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

1024x768 canvas = 786432 bytes x 2 (for 16 bits) = ~1.6MB x 5 layers = ~8MB.

Canvas size is not really THAT a huge memory user.

I know, it's down to how the program stores information. 1024 x 768 x 32 bits per pixel = 3MB per image. If it stores say 10 levels of undo and the undo steps require a bitmap stored per level then it's 30MB. Stroke path recording is different but memory usage depends on the number of strokes and vertices per stroke.

If they add effects like full layer blur and blending modes, the memory usage goes up, same with transforms. You can't really re-rasterize hundreds of strokes every time you move or zoom on such a slow device.

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Originally Posted by vinea View Post

That's Layers and I don't recall if it is vector or raster.

They're both vector and the statements from the source you value over my explanation said you could have canvases several thousand pixels wide in both Layers and Brushes and was wrong. You just need to open the app to see this.

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Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Perhaps you can explain how different a drawing canvas is in comparison to a map canvas?

An exported image can be rasterized at a higher resolution if you store stroke paths. A drawing canvas is limited to the device resources and limits the drawing precision. The hi-res exported canvas in Brushes is being rasterized on a desktop/laptop.

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Originally Posted by vinea View Post

And yet, somehow, I'm able to pan and zoom across a huge canvas in my GPS apps. Gee, is it because they only load the image areas they need?

Yeah but you can't change the images. I'm aware of the fact that you only need to load screen contents in some scenarios and it keeps memory usage low but if it was the case in image editing apps, Photoshop or Illustrator if you want a vector example would only ever use about 100MB of RAM. They don't.

The real issue I have is nothing to do with Brushes though, it's why have Apple not bothered to release the RAM spec? The thread is about preorder numbers. What if Apple turn round and say the iPad has 256MB RAM at launch? RAM is very important and while the demos shown were fluid, all demos are. The Brushes guy showed a single image, one layer, two brush strokes.

I think people should have a right to know what they are paying for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

A line 10 pixels long takes the same space as a line 10000 pixels long.

A straight line.

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Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The glass offset is an artifact, not a feature.

Brush offset is the feature to compensate for the glass offset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

A POGO stylus is rather thick. Brushes was designed for a finger and there is no offset.

The brushes user who made the detailed artwork had to use a POGO because there was no offset on the brush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The point is that YOU states that an offset was DESIRED even for things like the Cintiq. It is not.

It is when there's a glass offset. In general it's not desired at all - ideal is the sharpened pencil to paper you mentioned but you don't get that digitally yet.

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Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The odds that the HP Slate will be using SLC SSDs is very remote.

It's not really and it doesn't matter if it's SLC or MLC, they still have wear-leveling and about 5-10x faster transfer rates than mobile device storage. And HDD takes away any issues about Flash wear.
post #203 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The 'bogus' math came from the manual. They have a screenshot at 600%, count the pixel blocks and scale it up to get the native canvas resolution. Zoom in on your iPhone or iPod and count the blocks if you prefer.

That isn't a definitive statement so you're still guessing.

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I know, it's down to how the program stores information. 1024 x 768 x 32 bits per pixel = 3MB per image. If it stores say 10 levels of undo and the undo steps require a bitmap stored per level then it's 30MB. Stroke path recording is different but memory usage depends on the number of strokes and vertices per stroke.

Except it doesn't store a longword per pixel and it doesn't store a complete image per undo because that would be stupid for a vector based drawing program.

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If they add effects like full layer blur and blending modes, the memory usage goes up, same with transforms. You can't really re-rasterize hundreds of strokes every time you move or zoom on such a slow device.

And you know this how? More FUD that the iPod Touch/iPhone is too "slow" to do X. Especially given that we KNOW you can rasterize hundreds of strokes per refresh...unless you believe that no app currently draws hundreds of polylines or 3D shapes.

You DO realize there IS a GPU on the iPhone right?

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They're both vector and the statements from the source you value over my explanation said you could have canvases several thousand pixels wide in both Layers and Brushes and was wrong. You just need to open the app to see this.

It seems no less than 320x480 from the reviews. It exports 2K images. I'm not going to spend $5 just to see. In any case the burden of proof is on you given you're using this in some bogus method to FUD that the iPad will have too little RAM to be for artists.

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Yeah but you can't change the images. I'm aware of the fact that you only need to load screen contents in some scenarios and it keeps memory usage low but if it was the case in image editing apps, Photoshop or Illustrator if you want a vector example would only ever use about 100MB of RAM. They don't.

Photoshop and Illustrator are large because of all the capabilities they have, not just the canvas size. As shown the canvas memory footprint is all THAT big a contributor.

You CAN tile any image and clip to limit the CPU and memory footprint. Changing the image means re-rasterizing the affected tiles for the new stroke. I do this for redrawing individual map tiles to render large numbers of polygons (user drawn overlays) rather than rendering each polygon in 3D space and drape it on the map as a layer.

Yeah and verily even on old PIII machines with Intel integrated GPUs because some of our users still have these.

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The real issue I have is nothing to do with Brushes though, it's why have Apple not bothered to release the RAM spec?

Because Apple is a secretive company?

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The thread is about preorder numbers.

This part of the thread is about you spreading FUD that the iPad won't be a good tool for artists.

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What if Apple turn round and say the iPad has 256MB RAM at launch?

Then it is 256MB. THEN you have something to rant about that isn't FUD.

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RAM is very important and while the demos shown were fluid, all demos are. The Brushes guy showed a single image, one layer, two brush strokes.

And all those folks that got to play with the iPad and were impressed by the speed are all idiots and fooled by smoke and mirrors.

Specs are nice but usable power is more important.

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I think people should have a right to know what they are paying for.

i think people should know what is a fact and what is FUD spread by someone that doesn't like the product.

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A straight line.

ANY line. If it has the same number of vertices whether straight or not it will have the same memory footprint REGARDLESS of segment length.

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Brush offset is the feature to compensate for the glass offset.

No, you calibrate in order to minimize the offset cause by the glass. The applications assume you're drawing on the pixel the digitizer says you're on.

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The brushes user who made the detailed artwork had to use a POGO because there was no offset on the brush.

Citation. Folks that use POGO want the fine dexterity that a stylus offers over a finger because more folks are used to writing/drawing with one. Given that there is no offset THERE IS LITTLE DIFFERENCE between a POGO and a finger in terms of obscuring fine detail work. So your assertion makes no sense.

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It is when there's a glass offset. In general it's not desired at all - ideal is the sharpened pencil to paper you mentioned but you don't get that digitally yet.

The glass offset is small. YOU think it's large because in the video you can't actually see the white tip. In most cases there is no visible offset. Only toward extreme angles is it visible.

Nice backtracking. Now, in general it's not desired at all...

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and it doesn't matter if it's SLC or MLC,

Except that SLC lasts 5 times as long as MLC so this is a false statement. Plus SLC is faster. MLC cheaper.

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they still have wear-leveling

Wear leveling is pretty much implemented for all flash. Yes, even for the ones in a lowly iPod. Some implementations are better than others.

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And HDD takes away any issues about Flash wear.

And is slower.
post #204 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

That isn't a definitive statement so you're still guessing.
I'm not going to spend $5 just to see.

You're the one guessing. I actually have the program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

It seems no less than 320x480 from the reviews.

But is it anywhere near several thousand pixels? No, because that was FUD to make the iPad look like it can do the same as a laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

You CAN tile any image and clip to limit the CPU and memory footprint. Changing the image means re-rasterizing the affected tiles for the new stroke. I do this for redrawing individual map tiles to render large numbers of polygons (user drawn overlays) rather than rendering each polygon in 3D space and drape it on the map as a layer.

So why not make an iPhone drawing app? If the other apps are limited to small canvases and you can make almost infinite ones, you'd make a lot of money. If your tile size is iPhone resolution, you'd be able to make an app with 20-30 layers and infinite drawing space. Add some filters and you'll easily outsell Brushes.

In fact, make one for the desktop too. Take on Photoshop and let digital texture artists paint gigapixel textures while using only the current tile amount in RAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Because Apple is a secretive company?

So secretive they let us know the dimensions, clock speed, storage amount, ports, accessories, aesthetics and even let people get hands-on demos? Yeah, they better keep the RAM under wraps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

This part of the thread is about you spreading FUD that the iPad won't be a good tool for artists.

It won't be a great tool as it has no pressure sensitivity. I'm pointing out that a small RAM amount has very real limitations as it does in any computer and it's more important when you start dealing with multi-tasking and more fully fledged apps on a larger screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The glass offset is small. YOU think it's large because in the video you can't actually see the white tip.

I didn't say it was large, the Cintiq at my work has a small offset but without it the pen obscures the brush tip. A POGO and finger both obscure the point much worse, so an offset would be preferred. Why would you prefer no offset when your finger is in the way?
post #205 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

You're the one guessing. I actually have the program.

Then why didn't you know how big you can export images? Or how big the canvas size was without guessing?

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But is it anywhere near several thousand pixels? No, because that was FUD to make the iPad look like it can do the same as a laptop.

It's what was posted in a review. In any case, the bottom line is it tells you ZERO about the iPad memory size. The iPad isn't the same as a laptop but is still very capable. Probably as capable or more than your vaunted HP Slate in real world use.

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So why not make an iPhone drawing app? If the other apps are limited to small canvases and you can make almost infinite ones, you'd make a lot of money. If your tile size is iPhone resolution, you'd be able to make an app with 20-30 layers and infinite drawing space. Add some filters and you'll easily outsell Brushes.

First, I don't know ObjC all that well yet and second, good apps are all in the details. Especially ones for Apple users. I simply don't have the time to make an app as polished as Brushes appears to be.

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So secretive they let us know the dimensions, clock speed, storage amount, ports, accessories, aesthetics and even let people get hands-on demos? Yeah, they better keep the RAM under wraps.

So tell me more about the A4. Is it a cortex A8 or a A9? How many cores? Oh wait...

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It won't be a great tool as it has no pressure sensitivity.

And the HP Slate is unlikely to have a digitizer either.

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I'm pointing out that a small RAM amount has very real limitations as it does in any computer and it's more important when you start dealing with multi-tasking and more fully fledged apps on a larger screen.

And less because it's running on a mobile OS vs Win7.

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I didn't say it was large, the Cintiq at my work has a small offset but without it the pen obscures the brush tip. A POGO and finger both obscure the point much worse, so an offset would be preferred. Why would you prefer no offset when your finger is in the way?

If an offset was really desired by Brushes users it's easy to program in. Do you really think he can't do that?

If your Cintiq has a small offset you should recalibrate it. The cursor/crosshair center should be exactly where the pen tip is. Also given that you can hover with the stylus you can always see where the brush is before you put the pen down without obscuring the image below.
post #206 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Then why didn't you know how big you can export images?

I don't have wifi at home so I never used the feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Or how big the canvas size was without guessing?

It doesn't tell you when you make a new canvas but you can see the blocks when you zoom in. It's easier to count on a screenshot though. I knew it was small but never bothered to count before you asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

In any case, the bottom line is it tells you ZERO about the iPad memory size.

Obviously if there are limitations then it's because the developer has worked to the device constraints to ensure the program doesn't run out of memory and then fails to open the image up again. Like if you upload a 3k image to a shared server and you only get a fixed RAM allocation of 64MB per process, it can't even open the image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The iPad isn't the same as a laptop but is still very capable. Probably as capable or more than your vaunted HP Slate in real world use.

HP Slate will open at least a 5k canvas with at least 40 layers and be usable so no. It also has USB, a built-in camera, lots of storage...

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Originally Posted by vinea View Post

First, I don't know ObjC all that well yet and second, good apps are all in the details. Especially ones for Apple users. I simply don't have the time to make an app as polished as Brushes appears to be.

Brushes doesn't have that many features. It doesn't even have any transform or cropping options.

You have 4 layers switched with a button, you have a brushes box with a 11 brushes and you can choose segment spacing, stroke width and opacity, an undo/redo with 10 steps, a dropper and a color picker. Then just a gallery of images that looks like the photo app. The brushes are just images repeated along the stroke path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

So tell me more about the A4. Is it a cortex A8 or a A9? How many cores? Oh wait...

Single core 1GHz Cortex A8 is the best rumor so far.
post #207 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Does everyone know fully what they're even buying?

Yup, an iPod touch big enough to read books on comfortably.
post #208 of 209
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Originally Posted by Vatdoro View Post

The iPad has so many awesome things going for it, if Apple can pull off moderately priced TV, that will just be another huge feature to add to the list.

One quote in here is a little unnerving though. "nailing down the content has proven difficult as some potential collaborators weigh the advantages of working with Apple against the potential threats to their current sources of revenue."

That pretty much sums up what has kept the Apple TV from greatness. Hopefully Apple can strike a deal with content providers. Once it's on the iPad, then it's just a matter of time until they sign deals for Apple TV content. This will be huge.

Hopefully sooner than later.

Right on! Visual media for iPad and same media for AppleTV.
post #209 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

HP introduced their Slate before Apple. Which is far more powerful then the iPad.

How many have they sold?
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