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Pathetic Pundits Pilfer Party Politics Punctuating Perishing Patriotic Propriety

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
David Frum, conservative author of The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush had this to say about the passage of the healthcare bill:

Quote:
Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

Its hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that theyll compensate for todays expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:

(1) Its a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs.

(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.

So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson:

A huge part of the blame for todays disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obamas Waterloo just as healthcare was Clintons in 1994.

Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clintons 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romneys Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise without weighing so heavily on small business without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the doughnut hole and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or more exactly with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

Ive been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say but what is equally true is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office Rushs listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So todays defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, its mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, its Waterloo all right: ours.

http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

We have seen the same sort of fanatical fear-driven frenzy and fervor by the right wing members of this board. There certainly is a place for the conservative side of the argument. But if you willingly take yourselves out of the argument--taking your proverbial ball and going home--don't cry about what the adults do while you're busy having your tantrum.

Do yourselves a favor, conservatives, and turn off Fox News permanently.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2 of 37
Frum is being tossed off already:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_509038.html


You're either with us or you're against us.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #3 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

David Frum, conservative author of The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush had this to say about the passage of the healthcare bill:



http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo

We have seen the same sort of fanatical fear-driven frenzy and fervor by the right wing members of this board. There certainly is a place for the conservative side of the argument. But if you willingly take yourselves out of the argument--taking your proverbial ball and going home--don't cry about what the adults do while you're busy having your tantrum.

Do yourselves a favor, conservatives, and turn off Fox News permanently.

Put simply, the author is way off base. This legislation was not a victory for Democrats. It was not a defeat for Republicans. The fact is that it was rammed through using back room deals, defacto bribes, lies and threats. It was passed despite the objection of the majority of the American people.

And for the Dems? It was their Waterloo. Pelosi's approval rating is 11%. Reid's is 8%. The GOP base, which took a swig of Jack Daniels, then pulled the lever for McCain last time---is now energized.

Electorally, moderates have turned away from the President in large numbers. These are the people that elected Barack Obama. He was not elected by this mythical new Lefty Nutroot Majority we keep hearing about. It was people in the suburbs decided enough was enough with Bush and the GOP---people that bought into "Hope and Change," and people who voted for Barack Obama to be "progressive" (to them, "progressive" is merely defined as forward-moving). But, these people have changed their tune.

The economy? There are few signs of improvement. The Administration and Congress have done absolutely nothing to stimulate the economy. The stimulus was an abject failure. Meanwhile, taxes are going up as we speak. The supposed healthcare savings would not theoretically start for years (never mind that premiums will go UP, not down, because insurance companies will not be allowed to manage their own costs).

So, no sulking here. Not for this guy. In the end, the Dems shoving this down our throats may end up being the best thing to happen to the GOP. It gives them a rallying cry and a large stick to draw a line in the sand. It will be used as the ultimate example of differences between the two parties. One stands for massive government, massive debt, massive control and massive taxes--a cradle to the grave mentality--Constitution be damned. The other stands for individualism, Constitutional law, limited government and lower taxes. If the GOP embraces that mantra, we'll just see who wins not only in 2010, but in 2012 and beyond.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #4 of 37
Yes, the Republican's are trying to make Obama look weak in the eyes of the voters by trying to prevent him from getting anything done even at the expense of intergrating their ideas. It'll ruin them, if it hasn't already.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #5 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes, the Republican's are trying to make Obama look weak in the eyes of the voters by trying to prevent him from getting anything done

It's interesting (and fitting for the narcissist that Obama appears to be) that everything always seems to be about Obama.

When the Republicans (or anyone for that matter) are opposed to a particular policy or proposal or bill it is because "are trying to make Obama look weak in the eyes of the voters by trying to prevent him from getting anything done." It's not about the bill.

When the Democrats are begged, bribed and threatened to pass a particular bill it's to salvage or ensure Obama's presidency and even his legacy. It's not about the bill.

When people protest against his proposals and policies it's because they're racists and don't like Obama. It's not about the policies.

When Obama feels it's time to move forward and that the debate is over and it's time to act, that's when Obama declares the debate over and the time to act.

From the beginning Obama has been about I, me, mine. He's the central figure in the narrative and image in his mind. Even into his presidency his belief that he was and should be the center of everything was rather evident. He believes he can bring things into reality by sheer force of his will, eloquent rhetoric and smug dismissal of anything not him.

Things are very Obama-centric. Except, of course, failure. That's "not me." That's someone else's fault. Failure doesn't fit into the Obama-centric image.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #6 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes, the Republican's are trying to make Obama look weak in the eyes of the voters by trying to prevent him from getting anything done even at the expense of intergrating their ideas. It'll ruin them, if it hasn't already.

Obama is weak. Everything about his presidency has been weak, with or without Congress. He's failed at just about everything, from foreign relations to the Olympics...from Senate races, to uniting the country.

Don't tell me about integrating ideas. The Republicans put forth dozens of ideas concerning healthcare, for example. They were flatly rejected. Tort reform? Nope. Portability? Nope. Instead we got mandates, medicare cuts and onerous requirements on business.

In the end, the economy trumps all. If unemployment doesn't change significantly by Novemeber, it's going to be a blood bath.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #7 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It's interesting (and fitting for the narcissist that Obama appears to be) that everything always seems to be about Obama.

When the Republicans (or anyone for that matter) are opposed to a particular policy or proposal or bill it is because "are trying to make Obama look weak in the eyes of the voters by trying to prevent him from getting anything done." It's not about the bill.

When the Democrats are begged, bribed and threatened to pass a particular bill it's to salvage or ensure Obama's presidency and even his legacy. It's not about the bill.

When people protest against his proposals and policies it's because they're racists and don't like Obama. It's not about the policies.

When Obama feels it's time to move forward and that the debate is over and it's time to act, that's when Obama declares the debate over and the time to act.

From the beginning Obama has been about I, me, mine. He's the central figure in the narrative and image in his mind. Even into his presidency his belief that he was and should be the center of everything was rather evident. He believes he can bring things into reality by sheer force of his will, eloquent rhetoric and smug dismissal of anything not him.

Things are very Obama-centric. Except, of course, failure. That's "not me." That's someone else's fault. Failure doesn't fit into the Obama-centric image.

I should be doing other things right now, but just quickly as one new example, as if we needed any more....

"Senate Republicans fuming over the passage of health care reform are now refusing to work past 2 p.m. -- a tactic they can employ by invoking a little-known Senate rule.

On Wednesday, the Judiciary Committee was forced to cancel a hearing as was the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) tweeted today : "Disappointed. Rs refusing to allow hearings today. Had to cancel my oversight hearing on police training contracts in Afghanistan."

Sen. Mark Udall also complained that he had to delay a hearing on the cause of Western forest fires.

Making good on Sen. John McCain's threat to withhold all Republican cooperation from Democrats in the Senate in retribution for the majority party using reconciliation to pass health care reform, the GOP used the rule that states committees can only meet when the chamber is in session with the unanimous consent of all members. That consent has almost never been withheld -- until now."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_511639.html
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #8 of 37
The petulant children called the GOP are now refusing to go to committee meetings and other things. McCain, the little boy who wanted to be president, has refused cooperation for the rest of the year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_511639.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/23/op...me&ref=general

Op-Ed entitled, "An Absence of Class"

And then there is the editorial:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/opinion/24wed1.html

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #9 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Obama is weak. Everything about his presidency has been weak, with or without Congress. He's failed at just about everything, from foreign relations to the Olympics...from Senate races, to uniting the country.

Don't tell me about integrating ideas. The Republicans put forth dozens of ideas concerning healthcare, for example. They were flatly rejected. Tort reform? Nope. Portability? Nope. Instead we got mandates, medicare cuts and onerous requirements on business.

In the end, the economy trumps all. If unemployment doesn't change significantly by Novemeber, it's going to be a blood bath.

So, do you want the economy to recover well before November?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes, the Republican's are trying to make Obama look weak in the eyes of the voters by trying to prevent him from getting anything done even at the expense of intergrating their ideas. It'll ruin them, if it hasn't already.

Besides let's hear " Baby killer " or the " N " word one more time. Behaivor like this in goverment is unacceptable and will come back to bite them in the ass in November.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, do you want the economy to recover well before November?

" Splish splash I was takin' a bath " There will be alot of things in this bath water. And I do think the economy will recover enough by November that it'll be clear which way it's going.
I do get the feeling some would rather sacrifice this for political gain however.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Put simply, the author is way off base. This legislation was not a victory for Democrats. It was not a defeat for Republicans. The fact is that it was rammed through using back room deals, defacto bribes, lies and threats. It was passed despite the objection of the majority of the American people.

And for the Dems? It was their Waterloo. Pelosi's approval rating is 11%. Reid's is 8%. The GOP base, which took a swig of Jack Daniels, then pulled the lever for McCain last time---is now energized.

Electorally, moderates have turned away from the President in large numbers. These are the people that elected Barack Obama. He was not elected by this mythical new Lefty Nutroot Majority we keep hearing about. It was people in the suburbs decided enough was enough with Bush and the GOP---people that bought into "Hope and Change," and people who voted for Barack Obama to be "progressive" (to them, "progressive" is merely defined as forward-moving). But, these people have changed their tune.

The economy? There are few signs of improvement. The Administration and Congress have done absolutely nothing to stimulate the economy. The stimulus was an abject failure. Meanwhile, taxes are going up as we speak. The supposed healthcare savings would not theoretically start for years (never mind that premiums will go UP, not down, because insurance companies will not be allowed to manage their own costs).

So, no sulking here. Not for this guy. In the end, the Dems shoving this down our throats may end up being the best thing to happen to the GOP. It gives them a rallying cry and a large stick to draw a line in the sand. It will be used as the ultimate example of differences between the two parties. One stands for massive government, massive debt, massive control and massive taxes--a cradle to the grave mentality--Constitution be damned. The other stands for individualism, Constitutional law, limited government and lower taxes. If the GOP embraces that mantra, we'll just see who wins not only in 2010, but in 2012 and beyond.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/sl...l-passage.aspx

By November this number will be about 60% (moderate estimate).

We will see who wins.

If Obama is so weak why is he constantly winning?
Why is kicking the sh out of AlQeada?
Why are 80% of Israealis on his side?
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/sl...l-passage.aspx

By November this number will be about 60% (moderate estimate).

We will see who wins.

If Obama is so weak why is he constantly winning?
Why is kicking the sh out of AlQeada?
Why are 80% of Israealis on his side?

Add to the list:
Why is the GOP going absolutely nuts?

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/sl...l-passage.aspx

By November this number will be about 60% (moderate estimate).

This number is a fallacy for several reasons. One of these is that people tend to want to be the winning side, or what they see as such. Additionally, Obama got to go on TV and declare victory, again spouting off the lies about how the bill will save the world. It sounds great. It makes great news. Prior to the bill being passed, the polls were quite different. Your prediction of the bill getting more popular is utterly unsupportable. The more the Dems explained it, the worse the number got. I'm afraid recent history is not on your side here.

Quote:

We will see who wins.

If Obama is so weak why is he constantly winning?
Why is kicking the sh out of AlQeada?
Why are 80% of Israealis on his side?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Add to the list:
Why is the GOP going absolutely nuts?

What is he winning? He got Congress to fall on the coming sword over healthcare--and that sword is going to be big. After promising a new kind of politics, he went right back to bitter partisanship. The promised bills online for 5 days before signing...he lied. He promised the healthcare debate would be on CSPAN---he lied. He held a bogus "healthcare summit," where he chastised and insulted John McCain (and berated Eric Cantor for bringing--GASP--a copy of the bill). He flew to Copenhagen to get the Olympics, and was rejected. 80% of Israelis? He's left Israel hanging out to dry. He's spent trillions, attacked businesses, fallen all over himself without a teleprompter, called the Cambridge police stupid and generally made an ass out of himself. Unemployment is high. The stimulus failed. The housing market is still in shambles. Al-Qeada? Launching predator strikes doesn't make up for denying the Ft. Hood shootings and Christmas Day Bomb Plot were terrorism (he called them "isolated extremists.). How about having a criminal trial for Zarqawi in New York City? Oh wait...I have one! How about taxing any married couple that makes over $250,000 a year more to pay for Obamacare? Or continuing questionable Bush policies (bailing out banks and financial institutions) while not pushing for any real tax relief for businesses and the people that actually create jobs.

Yes, he's done fantastic.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #15 of 37
Keep hitting it out of the park SDW. You couldn't be more right and the point is that all those very large failures are going to be easily understood and voted on by the general populace. This isn't Christmas in Cambodia or I voted for it before I voted against it. This isn't even I'll run the war for the same reasons but run it better. Your points are all easily understood. The stimulus utterly failed. The only thing that was bipartisan on health care was opposition. Terrrorist trials in NY, etc. All of it is easily something that great swath of the population that isn't as much attention will easily grab on to when the election comes around.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 37
Are you Locked and Loaded?
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #17 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Keep hitting it out of the park SDW. You couldn't be more right and the point is that all those very large failures are going to be easily understood and voted on by the general populace. This isn't Christmas in Cambodia or I voted for it before I voted against it. This isn't even I'll run the war for the same reasons but run it better. Your points are all easily understood. The stimulus utterly failed. The only thing that was bipartisan on health care was opposition. Terrrorist trials in NY, etc. All of it is easily something that great swath of the population that isn't as much attention will easily grab on to when the election comes around.

Quote:
Keep hitting it out of the park SDW

If only he knew that he was in the wrong park!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #18 of 37
No You Can't (Featuring John Boehner)- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOUctySD68
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

Reply
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

It's interesting (and fitting for the narcissist that Obama appears to be) that everything always seems to be about Obama.

When the Republicans (or anyone for that matter) are opposed to a particular policy or proposal or bill it is because "are trying to make Obama look weak in the eyes of the voters by trying to prevent him from getting anything done." It's not about the bill.

When the Democrats are begged, bribed and threatened to pass a particular bill it's to salvage or ensure Obama's presidency and even his legacy. It's not about the bill.

When people protest against his proposals and policies it's because they're racists and don't like Obama. It's not about the policies.

When Obama feels it's time to move forward and that the debate is over and it's time to act, that's when Obama declares the debate over and the time to act.

From the beginning Obama has been about I, me, mine. He's the central figure in the narrative and image in his mind. Even into his presidency his belief that he was and should be the center of everything was rather evident. He believes he can bring things into reality by sheer force of his will, eloquent rhetoric and smug dismissal of anything not him.

Things are very Obama-centric. Except, of course, failure. That's "not me." That's someone else's fault. Failure doesn't fit into the Obama-centric image.

The maximum number of Democratic fillibusters in any one year has been 56.

"The frequency of filibusters -- plus threats to use them -- are measured by the number of times the upper chamber votes on cloture. Such votes test the majority's ability to hold together 60 members to break a filibuster.

Last year, the first of the 111th Congress, there were a record 112 cloture votes. In the first two months of 2010, the number already exceeds 40."

That means, with 10 months left to run in the 111th Congress, Republicans have turned to the filibuster or threatened its use at a pace that will more than triple the old record."
~ http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001777.htm

I posted the results of a new Harris poll in another thread. Here they are again.-

A new Harris poll from 2,230 people, just out-

*67 percent of Republicans (and 40 percent of Americans overall) believe that Obama is a socialist.

*57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim

*45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"

*38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"

*Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."
~ http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...ll/?cid=hp:exc

I think it's pretty clear that a lot of opposition to Obama comes from some very uninformed and delusion people. That's just the reality of the right today in the US. You can't blame Obama for their ignorance, they won't listen and they hate him.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #20 of 37
One really should think twice before quoting a poll from Harris Interactive.

Quote:
Ill lay off the sampling, though this survey was done among people who sign up to click through questionnaires via the Internet in exchange for points redeemable for cash and gifts not a probability sample. Been there before. This time lets just look at what it asked.

The poll starts by telling respondents here are some things people have said about President Obama, then asking if they think each is true or false. Fifteen statements follow, with all (excluding he is a Muslim) unrelentingly negative. True answers run from a high of 40 percent, for he is a socialist, to a low of 13 percent, for he wants the terrorists to win.

The problems are fundamental. Some people have said is a biasing introductory phrase; it imbues the subsequent statements with an air of credibility particularly when you dont note that others say something else. (That approach can have problems of its own; the some people vs. other people format implies equivalence.)

The subsequent statements, for their part, are classically unbalanced theres no alternative proposition to consider. A wealth of academic literature, neatly summarized here, demonstrates that questions constructed in this fashion true/false, agree/disagree carry a heavy dose of whats known as acquiescence bias. They overstate agreement with whatevers been posited, often by a very substantial margin. (This reflects avoidance of cognitive burden, which tends to happen disproportionately with less-educated respondents, as is reflected in Harris results.)

Using all negative statements, rather than a mix of negative and positive ones, reflects another non-standard approach, one that can further bias responses. (The ordering of items, unclear in the Harris release, can be troublesome as well.)

Another problem, which I discuss here, is the challenge of over-literalism in evaluating survey results of this type. Rather than answering disparaging poll questions literally, people who are ill-disposed toward the subject may simply use these questions as an opportunity to express their general antipathy not as a thought-out endorsement of the specific posit. And the use of hot-button invective is ill-advised in its own right; respondents may just blow it back.

Admittedly its a challenge to measure these sorts of sentiments. Unless carefully crafted, with balance and an approach that encourages due consideration and probes for meaning, simply asking the question can turn into little more than the old reporters trick of piping quotes. Its a shopworn use of true/false and agree/disagree questions, one long overdue for retirement.

Harris indeed goes the next step by reporting its results as what its respondents believe and as opinions they hold, as if they themselves came up with these notions, rather than having them one-sidedly set before them on a platter. Call me what you will and I know it can get nasty out there but from my perspective, this is not good polling practice.

There really isn't anything to discuss after self-selected sample who filled in the blanks for points and prizes.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #21 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

One really should think twice before quoting a poll from Harris Interactive.



There really isn't anything to discuss after self-selected sample who filled in the blanks for points and prizes.

I disagree. The poll is done by Harris which has an excellent reputation and is widely sought after by businesses and groups to get an accurate and reliable picture of issues for them.

"About Harris Interactive-

"Harris Interactive is one of the world's leading custom market research firms, leveraging research, technology, and business acumen to transform relevant insight into actionable foresight. Known widely for the Harris Poll and for pioneering innovative research methodologies, Harris offers expertise in a wide range of industries including healthcare, technology, public affairs, energy, telecommunications, financial services, insurance, media, retail, restaurant, and consumer package goods. Serving clients in over 215 countries and territories through our North American, European, and Asian offices and a network of independent market research firms, Harris specializes in delivering research solutions that help us and our clients stay ahead of what's next. For more information, please visit www.harrisinteractive.com."
~ http://news.harrisinteractive.com/pr...&Category=1777



"Harris Interactive (NASDAQ: HPOL) is an American market research company that specializes in public opinion research using both telephone and world-wide web surveys on online panels. The company is the product of a 1996 merger between the Gordon S. Black Company and Louis Harris & Associates.

Harris Interactive has produced the Harris Poll surveys of public opinion since 1963, and is a member of the US National Council of Public Polls (NCPP), the Council of American Survey Research Organizations (CASRO), the Council for Marketing and Opinion Research (CMOR), and the European Society for Opinion and Marketing Research (ESOMAR)."
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Interactive
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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #22 of 37
Quick question, can reputation overcome bad methodology?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #23 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The maximum number of Democratic fillibusters in any one year has been 56.

"The frequency of filibusters -- plus threats to use them -- are measured by the number of times the upper chamber votes on cloture. Such votes test the majority's ability to hold together 60 members to break a filibuster.

Last year, the first of the 111th Congress, there were a record 112 cloture votes. In the first two months of 2010, the number already exceeds 40."

That means, with 10 months left to run in the 111th Congress, Republicans have turned to the filibuster or threatened its use at a pace that will more than triple the old record."
~ http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001777.htm

The Party of No

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The Party of No

Saying no to extremism is fully justified. The only thing bipartisan in Washington right now is opposition to the Obama agenda. That had the votes of both parties. The bills did not.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Saying no to extremism is fully justified. The only thing bipartisan in Washington right now is opposition to the Obama agenda. That had the votes of both parties. The bills did not.

'Extremism'?

Jesus fucking Christ. Better stay out of Britain, Canada, Costa Rica, Denmark, Sweden, France, Norway, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, South Africa, Portugal, Germany, Ireland, Finland, Switzerland and Spain. They're far more 'extreme' than America.

Oh and stay out of Massachusetts. They're totally extreme. Yes, their health legislation was implemented under Republican governance. But they're EXTREMISTS.

For FUCK's sake, when will you come back to reality?
post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

'Extremism'?

Jesus fucking Christ. Better stay out of Britain, Canada, Costa Rica, Denmark, Sweden, France, Norway, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, South Africa, Portugal, Germany, Ireland, Finland, Switzerland and Spain. They're far more 'extreme' than America.

Oh and stay out of Massachusetts. They're totally extreme. Yes, their health legislation was implemented under Republican governance. But they're EXTREMISTS.

For FUCK's sake, when will you come back to reality?

Do you deny that opposition to Obama's agenda is bipartisan while those supporting it are not bipartisan?

In the countries you named did the passage of such legislation occur with 55-60 percent of the populace opposing it and with bribes, threats, and buyouts occurring to secure passage?

As for your list they are far more moderate than the Obama administration in a number of ways. Canada and Denmark drill for oil and spend the proceeds on their people. France generates up to 80% of their power via nuclear. France just decided to forgo carbon legislation.

Spain needs a bailout and Portugal was just downgraded in the bond market. I could continue to hit on your list but really, it's just pulled out of ones bottom. They either allow wealth and energy creation or are going broke. The U.S. is joining the broke category which is why there are protests.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Spain needs a bailout and Portugal was just downgraded in the bond market.

Except Spain does not need a bailout and Portugal's downgrade was merely a point in the Fitch credit-rating and not of any significance.

But carry on.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #28 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Except Spain does not need a bailout and Portugal's downgrade was merely a point in the Fitch credit-rating and not of any significance.

But carry on.

Justify the PIIGS all you want. Credit ratings are significant as they effect interest rates charged and also reflect the likelihood of default. Perhaps we will start a nice sovereign debt thread soon.

Quote:
While Spain still boasts a top triple-A rating, compared to the middling single-A2 for Greece by Moody's Investors Service, Spain arguably has the weakest economy in Western Europe with an overall unemployment rate over 19%, twice the EU average. For Spanish youth under 24 years old, the jobless rate is over 40%, raising the specter of a lost generation that's never worked -- a potentially combustible formula.

And while Spain's total government debt equals only 50.6% of GDP -- a far cry of Greece's 113.2% government debt-to-GDP ratio and less than the U.S.'s 69.1% -- its overall indebtedness is far above average, Nancy Lazar of ISI Group points out. Taking into account all debt -- household, corporate and government -- Spain's debt ratio is 336.5% of GDP, a legacy of the credit binge that created the real-estate bubble and bust that is the root cause of the slump.

By comparison, the EU's total debt-to-GDP ratio is 258.2%, while it's 242.2% for the U.S. and 243.8% for Greece, according to ISI. (Greek consumers are relatively frugal, with household debt equal to just 61% of GDP, compared the American household debt of 95.7% of GDP.)

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Justify the PIIGS all you want. Credit ratings are significant as they effect interest rates charged and also reflect the likelihood of default. Perhaps we will start a nice sovereign debt thread soon.

Actually I think this is a good thing. Here in Barcelona there is a lot of unemployment for sure..but you know what? Everyone is happy!!

No-one here WANTS to actually fritter their lives away as an exploited slave in some greed-fuelled quasi-dictatorial office which will use you up and spit you out as soon as they can outsource your futile job to some hapless slave in the third world who's forced by neo-colonialist morons to do the same thing for a Euro a day.

Actually that is WHY there is so much unemployment.

But we still don't care - and you know why? Because I can go down now and spend the next five hours in the Cafe if I so desire. Or go to the beach. Or head to the bar. Or sit here arguing with you all day.

Life is great!

And one other thing: the 'combustible situation' where all these jobless youths hit the street and start smashing things up won't happen because of lack of jobs....it happens quite often actually and it is never about that. It's about Right-wing Police brutality mostly or anti-war demos etc.

Besides dope is legal here so most people are pretty chilled out. There will be some rucks soon though because people are pissed off with right-wing Nazis, losers and Police thugs. But it won't be because of some financial fool's paradise denied them because no-one here wants that bullshit...not in that demographic anyway. There are a few wingers and straights but they are not significant.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 37
Well I'm sure they will be just as happy and high when the credit to GDP ratio is 500% or so. Enjoy! Hell I'll enjoy. Send me an address and you can charge a few beers for me as well while I sit on the beach.

I deserve some happiness and you should desire to pay for it least you be called a greedy uncaring scoundral or perhaps just a winger or something similar.

Let me know where I can pick up my flight tickets.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #31 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well I'm sure they will be just as happy and high when the credit to GDP ratio is 500% or so. Enjoy! Hell I'll enjoy. Send me an address and you can charge a few beers for me as well while I sit on the beach.

I deserve some happiness and you should desire to pay for it least you be called a greedy uncaring scoundral or perhaps just a winger or something similar.

Let me know where I can pick up my flight tickets.

Well...you are in the Land of the Free - go and buy some. We have no jurisdiction over how things work over there.

Once you get here though you'll benefit from all the advantages I listed. beer is cheap btw...50c (Euro), very good wine for 3.50 Euro a bottle. If you smoke I think cigarettes are about a Euro.

3 course meals with wine at lunchtimes are around 8 Euros and very good. I think this might be a commie thing though because there's a law that says they need to be this price for workers...you can pay a lot more if you want.

There are quite a lot of demos too and sometimes the Police wade in and a mini-riot kicks off...I'll show you some if you pop over if you like...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #32 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Do you deny that opposition to Obama's agenda is bipartisan while those supporting it are not bipartisan?

What kind of bizarre logic is this? DEMOCRATS are the ones prepared to vote with Republicans.

And yet somehow the ones being hyper-partisan are DEMOCRATS? When not a SINGLE REPUBLICAN cast their vote for reform?

You attempt to paint the Obama administration as 'extremist' when the legislation it passed are nowhere near as comprehensive as those of the countries I listed. You haven't listed any "bribes", any "threats" of any kind.

And oh, you are hilariously wrong sometimes. You say that Denmark is "less radical" than Obama's America. Indeed, you say:

Quote:
Canada and Denmark drill for oil and spend the proceeds on their people.

Yes. They do.

THIS IS CALLED 'SOCIALISM.'

You have NO idea, do you.
post #33 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Keep hitting it out of the park SDW. You couldn't be more right and the point is that all those very large failures are going to be easily understood and voted on by the general populace. This isn't Christmas in Cambodia or I voted for it before I voted against it. This isn't even I'll run the war for the same reasons but run it better. Your points are all easily understood. The stimulus utterly failed. The only thing that was bipartisan on health care was opposition. Terrrorist trials in NY, etc. All of it is easily something that great swath of the population that isn't as much attention will easily grab on to when the election comes around.


Most Americans can see him now for what he is. He's gone from 80% approval to 46% in a little over a year. Moderates jumped ship months ago. He just hasn't governed anything like he said he would. He promised transparency, openness and moderate pragmatism: We needed health reform and he preferred single payer, but was open to new ideas. We didn't have to look like Europe. We needed to aggressively go after AQ and forget about Iraq. The right-wing media didn't like him, but that was OK...he'd still sit down and have a beer with 'em, and maybe they could agree on few things. He didn't really know Bill Ayers or Rev. Wright that well, and just worked that one cast with ACORN 13 years ago. What a reasonable, intelligent, logical black man! Moderates voted for him in droves. The Left voted for him in droves. The GOP--as I said---reluctantly pulled the lever for the old blue blood Republican who was, at least, a war hero.

But things have changed now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

'Extremism'?

Jesus ****** Christ. Better stay out of Britain, Canada, Costa Rica, Denmark, Sweden, France, Norway, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, South Africa, Portugal, Germany, Ireland, Finland, Switzerland and Spain. They're far more 'extreme' than America.

Oh and stay out of Massachusetts. They're totally extreme. Yes, their health legislation was implemented under Republican governance. But they're EXTREMISTS.

For **** sake, when will you come back to reality?

Could we just stick to the US for now? Oh, and psst: Many Republicans don't like the Mass plan...but it's a STATE plan. The states are supposed to have much more power than the Federal government in these matters. Frankly, Mass. can do whatever it wants.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

What kind of bizarre logic is this? DEMOCRATS are the ones prepared to vote with Republicans.

And yet somehow the ones being hyper-partisan are DEMOCRATS? When not a SINGLE REPUBLICAN cast their vote for reform?

I love how Obamacare has morphed into "reform." See, Republicans are just against reform. It's not that they're against a unconstitutional bill or anything. [/quote]

You attempt to paint the Obama administration as 'extremist' when the legislation it passed are nowhere near as comprehensive as those of the countries I listed. You haven't listed any "bribes", any "threats" of any kind.[/quote]

It is extreme...extreme for this country and its Constitution.

Quote:

And oh, you are hilariously wrong sometimes. You say that Denmark is "less radical" than Obama's America. Indeed, you say:



Yes. They do.

THIS IS CALLED 'SOCIALISM.'

You have NO idea, do you.

You just cannot focus, can you? Somebody says the Obama admin is extreme. You point out all the other "more extreme" places. Hey, well that's great. It has nothing to do with this country, its traditions, et al. Nothing.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #34 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Most Americans can see him now for what he is. He's gone from 80% approval to 46% in a little over a year. Moderates jumped ship months ago. He just hasn't governed anything like he said he would. He promised transparency, openness and moderate pragmatism: We needed health reform and he preferred single payer, but was open to new ideas. We didn't have to look like Europe. We needed to aggressively go after AQ and forget about Iraq. The right-wing media didn't like him, but that was OK...he'd still sit down and have a beer with 'em, and maybe they could agree on few things. He didn't really know Bill Ayers or Rev. Wright that well, and just worked that one cast with ACORN 13 years ago. What a reasonable, intelligent, logical black man! Moderates voted for him in droves. The Left voted for him in droves. The GOP--as I said---reluctantly pulled the lever for the old blue blood Republican who was, at least, a war hero.

But things have changed now.





Could we just stick to the US for now? Oh, and psst: Many Republicans don't like the Mass plan...but it's a STATE plan. The states are supposed to have much more power than the Federal government in these matters. Frankly, Mass. can do whatever it wants.




I love how Obamacare has morphed into "reform." See, Republicans are just against reform. It's not that they're against a unconstitutional bill or anything.

Quote:
Quote:
You attempt to paint the Obama administration as 'extremist' when the legislation it passed are nowhere near as comprehensive as those of the countries I listed. You haven't listed any "bribes", any "threats" of any kind.

It is extreme...extreme for this country and its Constitution.



You just cannot focus, can you? Somebody says the Obama admin is extreme. You point out all the other "more extreme" places. Hey, well that's great. It has nothing to do with this country, its traditions, et al. Nothing

[/QUOTE]

There are many kinds of extreme. Some can be very good. Some can be very bad. Guess which is which.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #35 of 37
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Barry Goldwater

I sincerely doubt Goldwater was advocating violence, but I think it was more in the spirit of:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #36 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well...you are in the Land of the Free - go and buy some. We have no jurisdiction over how things work over there.

Once you get here though you'll benefit from all the advantages I listed. beer is cheap btw...50c (Euro), very good wine for 3.50 Euro a bottle. If you smoke I think cigarettes are about a Euro.

3 course meals with wine at lunchtimes are around 8 Euros and very good. I think this might be a commie thing though because there's a law that says they need to be this price for workers...you can pay a lot more if you want.

There are quite a lot of demos too and sometimes the Police wade in and a mini-riot kicks off...I'll show you some if you pop over if you like...

Well but that wouldn't be the Spanish way to do it on my own money. I've got to do it on some borrowed or redistributed money. You should redistribute some of yours to me of course. Given the state you allege I'm in, I clearly need it more than you and thus I'm entitled to you giving it to me so please do so least you be called several bad names associated with those who hold on to that which they don't deserve or aren't entitled to have. It isn't about earn it is about need and mine is greater than yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

What kind of bizarre logic is this? DEMOCRATS are the ones prepared to vote with Republicans.

They did vote with Republicans. They voted with Republicans against the health care bill. Bipartisan isn't just for support but for opposition as well. The blinders haven't stopped that understanding have they?

Quote:
And yet somehow the ones being hyper-partisan are DEMOCRATS? When not a SINGLE REPUBLICAN cast their vote for reform?

It is demonstrated as hyper-partisan precisely because no one but Democrats voted for it. Those opposing it were bipartisan. The nays consisted of both Democratic and Republican votes. Do you deny that?

Quote:
You attempt to paint the Obama administration as 'extremist' when the legislation it passed are nowhere near as comprehensive as those of the countries I listed. You haven't listed any "bribes", any "threats" of any kind.

That is because they are in the health care thread where we were discussing this. Those of us who add to the thread topic instead of making accusations across a number of threads understand where the information is organized.
Quote:
And oh, you are hilariously wrong sometimes. You say that Denmark is "less radical" than Obama's America. Indeed, you say:

Yes. They do.

THIS IS CALLED 'SOCIALISM.'

You have NO idea, do you.

Well since one of us doesn't caricature and paint with that broad brush, I can see that Denmark is quite a bit less radical than the United States with regard to the drilling, use and export of oil. Here it is noted Denmark companies are helping drill in Northern Greenland. We know that similar proven oil finds at similar latitudes in Alaska are currently off limits. We can even recall that she raised the tax on oil drilled out of Alaska and used the proceed to...gasp... enrich the people of Alaska by cutting them checks. There was even a thread here about it asking all us conservatives to condemn her for it.

It would be nice if the U.S. could do what Denmark and Greenaland are doing for their people. It would be nice to pump wealth out of the ground and use it to fund better technologies or social programs. Sadly here radical environmentalists win. We can't build solar plants due to tortoises. We can't build farm due to fish. We can't drill either.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #37 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Well but that wouldn't be the Spanish way to do it on my own money. I've got to do it on some borrowed or redistributed money. You should redistribute some of yours to me of course. Given the state you allege I'm in, I clearly need it more than you and thus I'm entitled to you giving it to me so please do so least you be called several bad names associated with those who hold on to that which they don't deserve or aren't entitled to have. It isn't about earn it is about need and mine is greater than yours.



They did vote with Republicans. They voted with Republicans against the health care bill. Bipartisan isn't just for support but for opposition as well. The blinders haven't stopped that understanding have they?



It is demonstrated as hyper-partisan precisely because no one but Democrats voted for it. Those opposing it were bipartisan. The nays consisted of both Democratic and Republican votes. Do you deny that?



That is because they are in the health care thread where we were discussing this. Those of us who add to the thread topic instead of making accusations across a number of threads understand where the information is organized.


Well since one of us doesn't caricature and paint with that broad brush, I can see that Denmark is quite a bit less radical than the United States with regard to the drilling, use and export of oil. Here it is noted Denmark companies are helping drill in Northern Greenland. We know that similar proven oil finds at similar latitudes in Alaska are currently off limits. We can even recall that she raised the tax on oil drilled out of Alaska and used the proceed to...gasp... enrich the people of Alaska by cutting them checks. There was even a thread here about it asking all us conservatives to condemn her for it.

It would be nice if the U.S. could do what Denmark and Greenaland are doing for their people. It would be nice to pump wealth out of the ground and use it to fund better technologies or social programs. Sadly here radical environmentalists win. We can't build solar plants due to tortoises. We can't build farm due to fish. We can't drill either.


Quote:
It is demonstrated as hyper-partisan precisely because no one but Democrats voted for it. Those opposing it were bipartisan. The nays consisted of both Democratic and Republican votes. Do you deny that?

I'm guessing this had nothing to do with the hyper partisan stick up the Republlican's collective asses did it? And by the way not enough votes eh what?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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