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post #1641 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Why, in your view, are police entitled to defend themselves with "all the protection they can get", but nobody else is?

Within reasonable limits, I think they should. I don't think they need rocket launchers for instance. The police, especially riot police, would be ineffective without proper riot gear. They are the one's who have to enforce our laws, if they were ineffective we may as well have anarchy. Personally, I find it ugly seeing the police dressed like mj's pic shows and do question if it's necessary. But surely the police themselves know the risks better than us? I'm sure dressed like that they act as a deterrent to trouble to some degree (though I know some people will use their riot gear as an invite to fight). 

 

I also don't think nobody else is allowed protection. I've talked about this before. Basically, I'm for strict requirements for the owning of weapons that could go a long way to keeping the guns out of criminal hands. Guns should be tracked. You want to sell a gun privately? It has to be fully documented. Untraceable guns are a major problem.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1642 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But surely the police themselves know the risks better than us?

 

Your faith is cute.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I also don't think nobody else is allowed protection. I've talked about this before. Basically, I'm for strict requirements for the owning of weapons that could go a long way to keeping the guns out of criminal hands. Guns should be tracked. You want to sell a gun privately? It has to be fully documented. Untraceable guns are a major problem.

 

So it isn't so much personal protection that you're opposed to, it's both personal freedom and personal privacy you want to see limited?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1643 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Well of course it seems hypocritical to you.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Anyway...you seem to have missed the point.

 

As for hypocrisy though, it seems you ought to compare this statement:

 

 

to your position on the rights of individual "civilians" to "all the protection they can get."

I didn't miss your point. I agree the US is moving into a highly surveilled society and freedoms are being lost to security concerns.That's a delicate balancing act, and quite where one's draws the line will be open for debate for a long time. Riot police are certainly threatening, but their presence doesn't necessarily mean any loss of freedom. Quite the opposite in fact. Anarchy is far worse.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1644 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I didn't miss your point. I agree the US is moving into a highly surveilled society and freedoms are being lost to security concerns.

 

Of which you advocate even more.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

That's a delicate balancing act

 

Really? Why?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Anarchy is far worse.

 

What do you mean by "anarchy?"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1645 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Your faith is cute.

 

 

 

So it isn't so much personal protection that you're opposed to, it's both personal freedom and personal privacy you want to see limited?

Given the problems with guns in the US and the success countries like the UK have shown by successfully tracking guns, I would have thought even you might see the benefits. Do you want people to be able to drive without sitting a driving test? Do you want people to drive cars without the owners of the vehicles having to register them? 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1646 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Do you want people to be able to drive without sitting a driving test?

 

I think demonstrating that you are qualified is a reasonable pre-condition here. But that's not really you're suggesting. To use your analogy:

 

1. Some people would not be allowed to own cars.

2. Purchase, sale and ownership of cars would be strictly controlled and tracked.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Do you want people to drive cars without the owners of the vehicles having to register them? 

 

Sure. Why not? But then I think the roads should be private and the rules for access and use would be set by the owners and operators of them.


Edited by MJ1970 - 8/28/12 at 2:43pm

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1647 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Of which you advocate even more.

 

 

 

 

Really? Why?

 

 

 

What do you mean by "anarchy?"

 

          I advocate both more and less. Some of the surveillance I think goes too far and some doesn't go far enough. Perhaps you would do away with all government surveillance of it's citizens and therefore don't see why I see it as a delicate balancing act. I also think those doing the surveillance need to be held accountable if they break their own rules. The degree of surveillance in our lives is likely to be astronomically high before long. Give it another twenty years or so, and I bet we are so fully monitored by endless drones and the like that we'll have no privacy left. I find that particularly sad for children, who'll grow up not being themselves if they think everything they do is being watched constantly.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1648 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Perhaps you would do away with all government surveillance of it's citizens and therefore don't see why I see it as a delicate balancing act.

 

Correct.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I also think those doing the surveillance need to be held accountable if they break their own rules.

 

lol.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The degree of surveillance in our lives is likely to be astronomically high before long. Give it another twenty years or so, and I bet we are so fully monitored by endless drones and the like that we'll have no privacy left.

 

Yes. But then, well, the state is a good thing. :rolleyes:

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1649 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I think demonstrating that you are qualified is a reasonable pre-condition here. But that's not really you're suggesting. To use your analogy:

 

1. Some people would not be allowed to own cars.

2. Purchase, sale and ownership of cars would be strictly controlled and tracked.

 

 

 

Sure. Why not? But then I think the roads should be private and the rules for access and use would be set by the owners and operators of them.

If someone drinks and drives or gets messed up on meths and drives, don't you think they should be banned from driving?  I hope you don't think that people who are doing the killing in Chicago say, when released, should be allowed to legally own guns. 

 

If vehicles aren't registered to an owner how will parking fines be charged? How will the police solve crimes if they can't find out who owns the vehicle? If vehicles weren't registered there'd be a lot more crimes, just as there are without guns being properly registered. It's a no brainer.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1650 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If someone drinks and drives or gets messed up on meths and drives, don't you think they should be banned from driving?

 

Not necessarily, no.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I hope you don't think that people who are doing the killing in Chicago say, when released, should be allowed to legally own guns.

 

Well, I suppose if they are in jail for murder, they shouldn't be released.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If vehicles aren't registered to an owner how will parking fines be charged?

 

Fines for what?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

How will the police solve crimes if they can't find out who owns the vehicle?

 

I don't know. By working harder?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If vehicles weren't registered there'd be a lot more crimes, just as there are without guns being properly registered. It's a no brainer.

 

Uh huh. :err:

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1651 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Correct.

 

 

 

lol.gif

 

 

 

Yes. But then, well, the state is a good thing. :rolleyes:

Yep, I figured as much. You're for no surveillance. Should the police be even allowed to know where you live.? ROLLS EYES, IF I COULD!

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #1652 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yep, I figured as much. You're for no surveillance. Should the police be even allowed to know where you live.?

 

Yep. Nope. Why should they?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

ROLLS EYES, IF I COULD!

 

You're not going to win points by either a) emulating jimmac, or b) using obnoxious shouting fonts.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1653 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Not necessarily, no.

 

 

 

Well, I suppose if they are in jail for murder, they shouldn't be released.

 

 

 

Fines for what?

 

 

 

I don't know. By working harder?

 

 

 

Uh huh. :err:

I think you just made my point better than I ever could with your responses. You see MJ, things aren't always simple. lol.gif

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1654 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Yep. Nope. Why should they?

lol.gif Great answers!

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1655 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think you just made my point better than I ever could with your responses. You see MJ, things aren't always simple. lol.gif

 

I've never claimed they are. That's your own straw man you're arguing against.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1656 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

lol.gif Great answers!

 

Thanks. Yet you're not answering my questions.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1657 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I've never claimed they are. That's your own straw man you're arguing against.

Oh really! Do tell how the police will function if they have so little information on citizens.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #1658 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

But surely the police themselves know the risks better than us?

 

Does a badge and a uniform grant an individual extra rights?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #1659 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Oh really! Do tell how the police will function if they have so little information on citizens.

 

Function to do what exactly?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1660 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Thanks. Yet you're not answering my questions.

Like what "parking" fines? Sheesh.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #1661 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Function to do what exactly?

Catch people.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1662 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Like what "parking" fines? Sheesh.

 

Well, maybe parking fines aren't all that necessary. Is that the best you can come up with? Parking fines? Seriously?

 

A parking "violation" is, properly understood, merely a contractual violation with the property owner of the area you parked. If that property owner feels the need to pursue a "fine" against someone for this violation, then the burden of enforcement is really on them isn't it?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1663 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Does a badge and a uniform grant an individual extra rights?

Most definitely. I'd rather have a police force that's properly trained and regulated than citizens, enforcing the law. Wouldn't you?

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1664 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Catch people.

 

Catch people for what?

 

Do you really think that true criminals are going to make themselves that easily found anyway?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1665 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Most definitely.

 

That's fucking scary.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'd rather have a police force that's properly trained and regulated than citizens, enforcing the law. Wouldn't you?

 

Maybe. It depends on the law.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1666 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Well, maybe parking fines aren't all that necessary. Is that the best you can come up with? Parking fines? Seriously?

 

A parking "violation" is, properly understood, merely a contractual violation with the property owner of the area you parked. If that property owner feels the need to pursue a "fine" against someone for this violation, then the burden of enforcement is really on them isn't it?

It was one example of several I gave. It would still be nigh on impossible to issue a fine if you don't know who owns the vehicle. 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1667 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It was one example of several I gave.

 

I only saw parking. Where are the other examples?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It would still be nigh on impossible to issue a fine if you don't know who owns the vehicle. 

 

Indeed, the enforcement costs for this "crime" would be high. So it's costs would be weighed against the benefits of punishing this "crime." Frankly, most property owners deal with it by simply having the vehicle towed away (at the vehicle owner's expense.) Problem solved.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1668 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Most definitely. I'd rather have a police force that's properly trained and regulated than citizens, enforcing the law. Wouldn't you?

 

Glad to know where you stand. You believe some individuals should have the right to violently force others to do what they want. I believe this is a very dangerous mentality.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1669 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

That's fucking scary.

The police have extra powers in order to do their job, if they didn't have those powers they wouldn't have any blue flashing lights. Wouldn't that be handy for the criminals? lol.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1670 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The police have extra powers in order to do their job, if they didn't have those powers they wouldn't have any blue flashing lights. Wouldn't that be handy for the criminals? lol.

 

Why do you assume that's so? Can you provide a logical, deductive path to your claim/conclusion?

 

What extra powers do they need in order to do their job? What specific job(s)?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1671 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Glad to know where you stand. You believe some individuals should have the right to violently force others to do what they want. I believe this is a very dangerous mentality.

 

But very convenient for the state.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1672 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Glad to know where you stand. You believe some individuals should have the right to violently force others to do what they want. I believe this is a very dangerous mentality.

I really don't understand your position here. If the police had no extra powers they'd solve a lot fewer cases. I don't see why you'd think the police shouldn't have any extra powers. 

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #1673 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

If the police had no extra powers they'd solve a lot fewer cases

 

What powers? What cases?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I don't see why you'd think the police shouldn't have any extra powers. 

 

Because he's trying to be morally and philosophically consistent.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1674 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

Why do you assume that's so? Can you provide a logical, deductive path to your claim/conclusion?

 

What extra powers do they need in order to do their job? What specific job(s)?

I'll let you research what extra powers they have. I suspect many of their powers I'd think they probably need, but definitely not all. 

 

I'm not going to argue with you why the police need blue flashing lights. It's not worth my time.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #1675 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'll let you research what extra powers they have.

 

No, no sweetie. I'm not doing your work for you. You claim they need extra powers to do their jobs. If you want to convince me you'll need to make your case. Until then, I'm not persuaded. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I'm not going to argue with you why the police need blue flashing lights. It's not worth my time.

 

Fair enough.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1676 of 2706
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Because he's trying to be morally and philosophically consistent.

lol.gif Yeah, and we're all doctors too, as well as cops! 

 

Seriously, you guys have been fun, but I think I'll leave this particular discussion now.

"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #1677 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

lol.gif Yeah, and we're all doctors too, as well as cops!

 

Huh?!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1678 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I really don't understand your position here. If the police had no extra powers they'd solve a lot fewer cases. I don't see why you'd think the police shouldn't have any extra powers. 

 

I know you don't understand. I'll attempt to help you.

 

Do you have the right to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? I think you would agree the answer is no.

 

Do you have the right to get someone else to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? Again, you would certainly agree the answer is no.

 

Do you have the right to get a group of people to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? Again, no.

 

Now here's the 16 trillion dollar question: Do you have the right to get a group of people with badges to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? Any answer other than no is morally, logically, and philosophically inconsistent. And it's downright wrong.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #1679 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

I know you don't understand. I'll attempt to help you.

 

Do you have the right to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? I think you would agree the answer is no.

 

Do you have the right to get someone else to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? Again, you would certainly agree the answer is no.

 

Do you have the right to get a group of people to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? Again, no.

 

Now here's the 16 trillion dollar question: Do you have the right to get a group of people with badges to force me to do what you want under threat of violence? Any answer other than no is morally, logically, and philosophically inconsistent. And it's downright wrong.

 

What jazz said.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1680 of 2706

Flicked through some photos from the GOP party and did not see a representation of the USA.  In normal photos of the US, you see lots of different looking people, and races.  Not so at this gathering.  

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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