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post #1881 of 2706

The whole region was called Palestine, as you explained. Including Jews, Arabs, everybody. In today's environment, there's a specific subset of people calling themselves Palestinians, claiming that they are the rightful owners of a specific land and country called Palestine. 

 

The Mandate was a legal instrument allowing Britain to rule/administer the region. As far as I know, no self-governing authority ever took power. And if there's been no self-governing authority or government in power, I don't see how it can be called an actual country. Especially since there were plans from the start to divide the territory into smaller entities.

 

According to wikipedia, "The mandate document formalised the division of the British protectorates - Palestine, to include a national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the Hashemite family."

 

 

There's also no mention there of any third division of the land for the rocket scientists who ignited the present crisis.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #1882 of 2706

What is the solution to this  regarding Palestine ?
 

post #1883 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The whole region was called Palestine, as you explained. Including Jews, Arabs, everybody. In today's environment, there's a specific subset of people calling themselves Palestinians, claiming that they are the rightful owners of a specific land and country called Palestine. 

 

The Mandate was a legal instrument allowing Britain to rule/administer the region. As far as I know, no self-governing authority ever took power. And if there's been no self-governing authority or government in power, I don't see how it can be called an actual country. Especially since there were plans from the start to divide the territory into smaller entities.

 

According to wikipedia, "The mandate document formalised the division of the British protectorates - Palestine, to include a national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the Hashemite family."

 

 

There's also no mention there of any third division of the land for the rocket scientists who ignited the present crisis.

 

I don't see why you keep side stepping the fact that the world recognised Palestine as a country (albeit for a short period). Granted, the country previously known as Palestine might not fufil the current UN definition of a country but the fact remains that Palestine was once a country (official).

 

The extent to which it justifies the ongoing hostilities is subjective. That Palestine was a country is an absolute statement of fact.

 

If we were to apply current definitions retrospectively then there are many countries which would lose the right to claim a constant lineage.


Edited by hungover - 11/21/12 at 10:30am
post #1884 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

What is the solution to this  regarding Palestine ?
 

Marv, you seem like a reasonable person. A bit quick on the trigger, maybe not fully informed, but usually reasonable.

 

What do you think about the following?

 

From this image, it should be clear that there is no risk of Israel not existing. Palestine -- or the land settled legally with rights by Palestinians -- on the other hand? Do you not think it will be a shame if they are "wiped off the map"?

post #1885 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Marv, you seem like a reasonable person. A bit quick on the trigger, maybe not fully informed, but usually reasonable.

 

 

If you claim to be informed, then you should know that Jews living in that area before the creation of Israel were called Palestinians. The people who now go by the name of Palestinians were simply known as Arabs.

 

Arabs calling themselves Palestinians is a relatively new creation. And just because you link to some map that has the name Palestine on it, that doesn't mean that the people who used to be called Arabs, but now call themselves Palestinians for political purposes, have some sort of ownership of Palestine. I can see how some ignorant and misinformed people and those without historical knowledge can be misled though.

 

If I move to Japan with a group of people and live there for a few years, and then we decide to call ourselves Japanians, and post links to maps and start blowing up a few people here and there and shooting off rockets every once in a while, that doesn't mean that we have some historical right to the entire country, just because we changed our name and it's now similar to what's on some map.lol.gif


Edited by Apple ][ - 11/21/12 at 10:47am
post #1886 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Marv, you seem like a reasonable person. A bit quick on the trigger, maybe not fully informed, but usually reasonable.

 

What do you think about the following?

 

From this image, it should be clear that there is no risk of Israel not existing. Palestine -- or the land settled legally with rights by Palestinians -- on the other hand? Do you not think it will be a shame if they are "wiped off the map"?

 I wonder how long it will take the Israelis to reach a tipping point where they decide that each extra inch of territory (illegally) gained Vs the increases in terrorist attacks is a price that is too high to pay. 

post #1887 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post

 

If you claim to be informed, then you should know that Jews living in that area before the creation of Israel were called Palestinians. The people who now go by the name of Palestinians were simply known as Arabs.

 

Arabs calling themselves Palestinians is a relatively new creation. And just because you link to some map that has the name Palestine on it, that doesn't mean that the people who used to be called Arabs, but now call themselves Palestinians for political purposes, have some sort of ownership of Palestine. I can see how some ignorant and misinformed people and those without historical knowledge can be misled though.

 

If I move to Japan with a group of people and live there for a few years, and then we decide to call ourselves Japanians, and post links to maps and start blowing up a few people here and there and shooting off rockets every once in a while, that doesn't mean that we have some historical right to the entire country, just because we changed our name and it's now similar to what's on some map.lol.gif

 

There were indeed Jewish people living in the region prior to the Mandate for Palestine, they accounted for about 11% of the population, the arabs  (Christian and Muslim)  accounted for 87%.

 

Granted, the duration of Palestine as a country only lasted a couple of generations but many of the people living there have family roots going back thousands of years. I guess that they call themselves Palestinian for reasons of convinience or political sympathy. never-the-less IMO they have valid grounds for being annoyed by military forces illegally occupying the land they have considered their home for generations.

 

Your Japan example is extremely floored- it describes the activities of the Zionists rather than the Arabs.

post #1888 of 2706

I think Israel and Palestine should coexist and live peacefully without any more wars between them.Let Israel lift their restrictions on Palestine and let Palestine not to be influenced so much by Hammas.Hopefully this will work in time.
 

post #1889 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I think Israel and Palestine should coexist and live peacefully without any more wars between them.Let Israel lift their restrictions on Palestine and let Palestine not to be influenced so much by Hammas.Hopefully this will work in time.
 

 Unfortunatley as things currently stand Hammas' influence will only increase. As the occupying force Israel needs to be seen to be making the concessions. Sadly they have shown that they are not willing to hand back the Occupied Terratories.

 

It would be naiive to assume that de-occupying would appease all of the Arabs but it would be a step in the right direction.

 

Ironically if Israel continue along their current path, the global outrage will start to trickle down to their key supporter, ie the USA. Without support from from the USA, israel will be forced closer to trying to broker a peace.

post #1890 of 2706

Recently there have been a number of incidents involving US service personnel in Japan.

 

Drunk driving.  Battery.  Rape.  Staying out after curfew (yeah, because of the problems they are under curfew but still stay out and get drunk and cause trouble).

 

 

 

It won't stop and the Japanese are losing patience.

 

- - - - -

 

Rarely does a week go by in Japan when there isn't a story about a policeman being arrested.  Groping.  Taking photos up girls' skirts.  Drunk driving.  Mob ties.  Stealing personal info.  Giving detainees sleeping medicine.  Conspiring to not pay highway tolls (which are very high here).

 

Personally, though I think the problems with US personnel are outrageous and unforgivable, and an embarrassment for the US, I wonder where the outrage is about the level of police in Japan and their problems.  But then, with Japanese politics, the minister of justice who was recently appointed was the guest of honor at a mobster's wedding some years ago and his political party sees no problem with it.  The one before him had a questionable business.


Edited by Bergermeister - 11/23/12 at 7:59pm

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

Reply
post #1891 of 2706

As I pointed out before, it was never really about ending the badness, it was simply about changing addresses.

 

Ahh the sweetness that is Obama.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1892 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

As I pointed out before, it was never really about ending the badness, it was simply about changing addresses.

Ahh the sweetness that is Obama.

Do you not think that US detention would be more transparent? The government would be more accountable?
post #1893 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Do you not think that US detention would be more transparent? The government would be more accountable?

 

No.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1894 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Do you not think that US detention would be more transparent? The government would be more accountable?

No.

Then I understand your position. Many people, however, might disagree with your denial that it would be much easier for abuses to be revealed in closer proximity to investigators.
post #1895 of 2706
Do you not think that at least the logistics of holding detainees locally would be less expensive, in terms of transportation, personnel and infrastructure costs?
post #1896 of 2706
There are plenty of sexual crimes in the Philippines also where I reside now by our American military.Across the world they are getting away literally with murder also.
post #1897 of 2706
This will never happen the U.S. will never relinquish their money by not helping Israel which is one of their biggest allies in the Middle East.And Israel will never give up the financial support of the U.S. which i believe is over 1 billion dollars every year.
post #1898 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Many people, however, might disagree with your denial that it would be much easier for abuses to be revealed in closer proximity to investigators.

 

So? Many people think a lot of things that turn out to be wrong. Many people think things like Barack Obama saved the country from an unrestrained free-market. Or that borrowing and spending hundreds of billions of dollars will stimulate the economy and lead to recovery and job growth. People think a lot of things that are wrong like that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1899 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Do you not think that at least the logistics of holding detainees locally would be less expensive, in terms of transportation, personnel and infrastructure costs?

 

The logistics and costs of treating people badly or detaining them illegally or otherwise dealing with them immorally and unjustly isn't my concern here. If anything I'd prefer they were forced down the more expensive and difficult route.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1900 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Do you not think that at least the logistics of holding detainees locally would be less expensive, in terms of transportation, personnel and infrastructure costs?

The logistics and costs of treating people badly or detaining them illegally or otherwise dealing with them immorally and unjustly isn't my concern here. If anything I'd prefer they were forced down the more expensive and difficult route.
TBQH I would tend to agree with you here. But to pin this on Obama is asinine. Paul and Kucinich are the ONLY pols in Washington that really want to release the people who are being held unfairly.
post #1901 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

TBQH I would tend to agree with you here. But to pin this on Obama is asinine. Paul and Kucinich are the ONLY pols in Washington that really want to release the people who are being held unfairly.

 

What I am "pinning" on Obama (really he is pinning it on himself) is this bullshit word game he's playing trying to trick people by talking about "closing" Gitmo when all it is really about is re-locating Gitmo. This does nothing to end the shit going on at Gitmo, it just moves it. He certainly has the power to end it with the stroke of a pen (as he does with the ramped up "war on drugs" his administration is vigorously engaged in)...but I guess he's too busy having people killed by drones with the stroke of a pen.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1902 of 2706

Good for Obama with these drone strikes of his.Perhaps they deserve it.
 

post #1903 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

Good for Obama with these drone strikes of his.Perhaps they deserve it.

 
Not sure if they deserve it or not. They're Pakistanis, not Palestinians. Palestinians, inclusing women and children, would definitely deserve to be killed for the crime of electing Hamas.

[/SDW]
post #1904 of 2706

I am fed up with Israel always trying to provoke more trouble with Palestine. Now they want to build more settlements on the Gaza border why be more spiteful when you want to make peace so they say with Palestine.Pakistan are also not that crazy about our country either.I do not trust them either.They were after all hiding OBL in their country and I believe they knew all about it.
 

post #1905 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I am fed up with Israel always trying to provoke more trouble with Palestine. Now they want to build more settlements on the Gaza border why be more spiteful when you want to make peace so they say with Palestine.Pakistan are also not that crazy about our country either.I do not trust them either.They were after all hiding OBL in their country and I believe they knew all about it.
 

By "provoking" you mean "using their land their way". Palestinians (and the Arab world in general) are "provoked" by any manner of slight real or imagined. What other sovereign country is asked not to build housing anywhere they see fit? Only the jewish state.

post #1906 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

By "provoking" you mean "using their land their way". Palestinians (and the Arab world in general) are "provoked" by any manner of slight real or imagined. What other sovereign country is asked not to build housing anywhere they see fit? Only the jewish state.

The problem is that what you and they call their land is land that they are illegally occupying... I do find it odd that they keep wanting to build close to the "terrorists".

 

I should imagine that Cubans are prohibited from building on Gitmo...


Edited by hungover - 12/2/12 at 2:36am
post #1907 of 2706

I mean Israel is spiteful by wanting to build settlements on the Gaza side. That is no way to make peace with Palestine.They will never coincide with each other with this type of aggression by the Israeli's.Let it alone already!
 

post #1908 of 2706
Watch The case for Israel: democracy's outpost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I mean Israel is spiteful by wanting to build settlements on the Gaza side. That is no way to make peace with Palestine.They will never coincide with each other with this type of aggression by the Israeli's.Let it alone already!

 
post #1909 of 2706

Israel is really obstinate with their prime minister BN and their insistence on building more settlements in the Gaza . maybe we should start to not lend billions every year to Israel and see what their attitude is than.What really does Israel benefit us? Ask yourself that.
 

post #1910 of 2706

Two interesting items on the Nobel Peace Prize winner, Barack Obama's drone wars:

 

It’s Time to Stop Killing in Secret

 

Obama making up drone rules as he goes

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1911 of 2706
When the United States Of Islam in the Middle East wipes out Israel, we'll know Obama was one of those whose fraudulent behaviour help engender such an atrocity.
post #1912 of 2706

Where did you get this crazy concept from a right wing newspaper I guess.
 

post #1913 of 2706

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1914 of 2706
post #1915 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Check...mate. lol.gif

 

That's awesome, haha.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1916 of 2706

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #1917 of 2706
I finally get why you guys/gals in the US are anti-government... Even if left/right... The US government has become far too intrusive in everyday life, with far too many out-of-control "secret governments" within a government.

I think from the 80's people started realising this more?

In any case, when Obama's done that's 16 years of bad presidents. Like, worse since Nixon (even then...).

I feel sad for the USA to be crippled because of two idiots and 16 years.

Looking back, it was Clinton that helped in essence and in practice in me getting and enjoying my first job out of college, in the US.

I was but a kid with stars in my eyes, and I got to live "the dream", even if for a short while. (Now I have slightly different dreams)
post #1918 of 2706

I guess you favored the idiot George W Bush over Obama. Why? I am sick and tired of people          belittling Obama all the time period!
 

post #1919 of 2706

Figures small demented minds.

post #1920 of 2706
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvfox View Post

I guess you favored the idiot George W Bush over Obama. Why? I am sick and tired of people          belittling Obama all the time period!

 

Obama could be worse because people are "sold" on things he is saying which are not true. GWBush was an idiot but at least everyone knew it.
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