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post #41 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Blah blah blah

And this is what change looks like, by the way.


What are they doing under women's studies? Wow that really is quite a change!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #42 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Two points...

One, the man is governing and doing so in a damaging and ineffective way. That needs to be called out. However I do give praise when deserved. There was a thread here about his helping nuclear power along and I praised him there as well. I can't praise him on foreign affairs because, contrary to how people keep wanting to portray me, I'm not a neocon. I wasn't happy with Pax Americana no matter the person pushing it. I have a big problem with people pushing politics in the middle of bullets flying. Thus if someone in Congress votes to send someone to Iraq and then later decides they don't want to fund what is necessary while they are there, they will have my ire. Bring them home or don't but don't debate armored humvees or bullet proof vests and better helmets while they are there. However outside of that I don't like Pax Americana and want it to end.

People claimed Obama would be different in that regard and I noted from other statements that he wouldn't be at all. I said it early and often and I've been proven correct.

Two, lots of folks have had issues with Obama especially since he is still pushing forward and advancing the same foreign policy as Bush. Obama's is a more naive and dangerous version of the same foreign policy. In Obama's time North Korea and Iran may not be part of the Axis of Evil but they are going above energy generation grade uranium refinement and they are sinking ships while having the bomb. People should have problems with needing 300% more money to fix the claimed Bush problems then the Bush spending itself. There are plenty even on here who were Obama supporters who have uttered Obama has to go or f*ck Obama due to various policies he has implemented.

So really it is clear that the man is doing about 98% of what I don't want and 2% of what I do. It shouldn't be surprising that my comments reflect that point. Next, where is that insane, ridiculous double-standard coming from? Are we to believe the board as all flowers and positivity with regard to Bush and the Republican Congress from our leftist members when they held control? Please... don't make me laugh. It was absurd. We had threads about how McCain and Cheney are violent and unstable because they..... use curse words. It was insanely petty and silly. So as Joe Biden might say when Bush and Repubs were in power everything they said and did, it was a big f*cking deal.

Finally, call me crazy, but who's fault is it that there isn't more positive Obama news on here? Is it my job to post such items? No it is yours and so please do. When I agree with them, you'll see the appropriate response but it isn't my jobs to advocate for Obama. If you are his supporter it is your job to get his good news out there. No one is stopping you. If you want more positive news about him then post more such items. Start a thread on it if you wish even.

Now on to some miscellaneous and interesting news. Turns out the most anti-government folks in France might be......prostitutes.

Much like our own debate with health care, they don't want comprehensive reform and availability of brothels, just for solicitation to be made legal.



Who knew that French prostitutes and American Tea Party Members had so much in common? Go French Prostitutes!

Quote:
One, the man is governing and doing so in a damaging and ineffective way.

I hate to break this to you but this is an opinion. One that's in the minority.

So the country which runs on a majority rule voting process is choosing to go the other way from your way of thinking. And you just can't take that. What's the next step? Do you just grin and bear it because the alternative certainly wouldn't be a free system ( since a minority would be forcing their directive on the majority which wouldn't be fair, free, all those things you supposedly like ) or do you take the next step that many of your right wing advocates have. Try to force the issue even to the point of violence?

Now do you understand why the right's reaction to all of this is really a bad one?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #43 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In other news, health care reform has unfortunately drowned out the amazing news about the shift in American attitudes toward Isreali settlements. Finally an administration with the balls to stand up to those fuckers. This is one thing that I absolutely support within the Obama administration, and go Joe and Hillary!

Me too. Absolutely.

I was reading an op ed in... the internet somewhere ( ) that hypothesised that Netanyahu had been advised that Obama's health reforms would fail and he'd be stymied, hobbled. The announcements were made to humiliate Biden, with the meeting in DC agreed for after the expected vote.

Except of course it didnt work out like that. Biden and Clinton told him he was being a prick, and then he came to Washington and Obama basically heard him out and then send Great. Is that all youve got got? OK, Im going for dinner. Let me know if you come up with something that demonstrates you actually give a shit.

Sang froid is an admirable trait.
post #44 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So the country which runs on a majority rule voting process is choosing to go the other way from your way of thinking. And you just can't take that. What's the next step? Do you just grin and bear it because the alternative certainly wouldn't be a free system ( since a minority would be forcing their directive on the majority which wouldn't be fair, free, all those things you supposedly like )

Actually the structure of our country was to be more complex and nuanced than this and was designed, generally, to protect minorities from majorities. It was designed to distribute power more evenly and to avoid any one block from gaining too much power or control. It was to be limited by a written constitution and moderated by checks and balances. The idea was not that the majority of the people would have power (or that the minority would have it either). This is why things were designed as they (whether those designs were ever perfect or have since been overcome by power plays or not).

This is one of the root problems that we have today. We have drifted further and further each year from these original concepts and principles. Power is less disbursed and decentralized and, in fact, has become more consolidated and centralized. Not just in Washington (vs. the states) but even within the presidency (vs. the judicial and legislative branches).

All of this is not the fault of a single person or party (though some have caused us to drift further and faster at different times) but it's been a gradual drift as a result of loose and sloppy thinking along with loose and sloppy commitment to those core principles. It will be the cancer that destroys the country if it isn't checked and reversed.

In short, this country was not designed to be simplistically "majority rule."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #45 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Actually the structure of our country was to be more complex and nuanced than this and was designed, generally, to protect minorities from majorities. It was designed to distribute power more evenly and to avoid any one block from gaining too much power or control. It was to be limited by a written constitution and moderated by checks and balances. The idea was not that the majority of the people would have power (or that the minority would have it either). This is why things were designed as they (whether those designs were ever perfect or have since been overcome by power plays or not).

This is one of the root problems that we have today. We have drifted further and further each year from these original concepts and principles. Power is less disbursed and decentralized and, in fact, has become more consolidated and centralized. Not just in Washington (vs. the states) but even within the presidency (vs. the judicial and legislative branches).

All of this is not the fault of a single person or party (though some have caused us to drift further and faster at different times) but it's been a gradual drift as a result of loose and sloppy thinking along with loose and sloppy commitment to those core principles. It will be the cancer that destroys the country if it isn't checked and reversed.

Quote:
Actually the structure of our country was to be more complex and nuanced than this and was designed, generally, to protect minorities from majorities


In short, this country was not designed to be simplistically "majority rule."

Yes but in the voting process? I'm sorry but it's pretty cut and dried. The vote is really the bottom line. Our country has operated in excess of 200 years by the voting process. There is no way you can vote and not have a majority rule ( even if it's electoral votes ). Now things are going the opposite way than they have for a long while and the losing side can't stand it. So they twist, squirm, stomp their feet, and try to make up reasons that defy logic to show why things should go the other way.

Wow just wow!
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #46 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes but in the voting process? I'm sorry but it's pretty cut and dried. Our country has operated in excess of 200 years by the voting process. There is no way you can vote and not have a majority rule.

Do you actually read what people post or not? Tell me now so I can decide whether it is worth having any further "discussion" with you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Now things are going the opposite way than they have for a long while and the losing side can't stand it. So they twist, squirm, stomp their feet, and try to make up reasons that defy logic to show why things should go the other way.

You accuse others of this so-called PPD...what is it Partisan something Disorder? And yet appear to suffer from it yourself. You think that all things are about left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican and appear to see things only through that lens. Some things are actually about right and wrong, free and unfree, liberty and slavery, creation and destruction.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #47 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Do you actually read what people post or not? Tell me now so I can decide whether it is worth having any further "discussion" with you.




You accuse others of this so-called PPD...what is it Partisan something Disorder? And yet appear to suffer from it yourself. You think that all things are about left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican and appear to see things only through that lens. Some things are actually about right and wrong, free and unfree, liberty and slavery, creation and destruction.

Quote:
Do you actually read what people post or not? Tell me now so I can decide whether it is worth having any further "discussion" with you.

Yes. I read when you were trying to invent a new form of logic.

Quote:
You accuse others of this so-called PPD...what is it Partisan something Disorder? And yet appear to suffer from it yourself. You think that all things are about left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican and appear to see things only through that lens. Some things are actually about right and wrong, free and unfree, liberty and slavery, creation and destruction

Partisan Polarity Disorder.

The rest is your opinion. I don't think that everything the left does is right. I don't think everything Obama does is right. That's your inaccurate or simplistic take on things.

However when you talk about right and wrong it would be very wrong for the minority party in this country to dictate how things will go. After that you might as well throw out the whole thing and have a right wing dictatorship because it certainly wouldn't be democratic. And MJ1970 especially when they use violence in an attempt to get their way.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #48 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

In short, this country was not designed to be simplistically "majority rule."

What exactly is "simplistically majority rule"?

Bush was elected against the will of the majority. He had less votes than Gore. It this what you mean.
Some should have more power that others?
Some votes should be counted more than others?
3 guys with equal athletic abilities. Two of them beat up on one of them. Do you think the one guy will win?

What are you saying here?
Do you want a feudal system?
Corporate fascism?
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #49 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes. I read when you were trying to invent a new form of logic.

I see. So you aren't really trying to understand, you are merely wedded to your point of view and layering your interpretation of what someone says onto their words. Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

However when you talk about right and wrong it would be very wrong for the minority party in this country to dictate how things will go.

I wasn't even suggesting that. So it seems you don't either read or understand.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #50 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Do you want a feudal system?
Corporate fascism?

I would settle for a constitutional federal republic with sovereign states and individual liberty.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #51 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Do you actually read what people post or not? Tell me now so I can decide whether it is worth having any further "discussion" with you.




You accuse others of this so-called PPD...what is it Partisan something Disorder? And yet appear to suffer from it yourself. You think that all things are about left and right, liberal and conservative, Democrat and Republican and appear to see things only through that lens. Some things are actually about right and wrong, free and unfree, liberty and slavery, creation and destruction.

Just stop and step into the box please, it will make everything so much easier for those you are sparring with.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #52 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Just stop and step into the box please, it will make everything so much easier for those you are sparring with.

Hey I do that everytime I come here!

Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #53 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I see. So you aren't really trying to understand, you are merely wedded to your point of view and layering your interpretation of what someone says onto their words. Got it.



I wasn't even suggesting that. So it seems you don't either read or understand.

Show me where.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #54 of 2691
Thread Starter 
"If China was serious about creating a legacy after the Beijing Olympics, it is outshining all its past efforts for the Shanghai World Expo, spending $4.2 billion on reinventing the world's exhibition fair as a blowout extravaganza.

While previous expos in Zaragoza and Hanover went largely unnoticed on the global agenda, Shanghai is creating such a promotional ruckus, that countries are going all out to impress an expected 70 million visitors.

Germany is spending $67 million on its pavilion which will let visitors sample traditional dishes like bratwurst sausage and Bavarian pork knuckle.

Saudi Arabia's spaceship pavilion, which features desert date palms and a 1,600 square-meter cinema screen (about a quarter the size of a soccer pitch), stands almost fully completed, gleaming against muddy construction rubble at adjacent unfinished sites.

The Saudi pavilion is the most expensive at $146 million, while Australia is spending $76 million and France is shelling out $68 million.

Shanghai's government has spent $45 billion to upgrade transport and infrastructure and $700 million on renovating the historic Bund riverfront promenade. In just a year, the city has doubled the metro system to 420 km (260 miles) of track and opened a new airport terminal to accommodate tens of thousands of visitors per day."
~ http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62P0YM20100326
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #55 of 2691
I applaud the premise of this thread.
But if you were going to steal a thread idea from 'Nova, you should at least have stolen the idea that the thread title should be interesting.



Just to kick things off, I hope that our more leftie members have really good spam detection...
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #56 of 2691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I applaud the premise of this thread.
But if you were going to steal a thread idea from 'Nova, you should at least have stolen the idea that the thread title should be interesting.



Just to kick things off, I hope that our more leftie members have really good spam detection...

Nice way to applaud the premise of this thread by accusing me of stealing the idea from Nova. It's been a year or so since I visited the Nova site and on that last visit I couldn't even find the political area of the forum.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #57 of 2691
Thread Starter 
Looks like a possible major terrorist attack in Moscow-

"Moscow emergency officials and Russian news agencies say two explosions have hit the Moscow subway system, killing at least 25 people.

Emergency Ministry spokeswoman Irina Andrianova says the dead in the first blast on Monday morning include 14 people who were in the train and another 11 people who were on the platform at the Lubyanka station in central Moscow.

State news agencies ITAR-Tass and RIA Novosti report a second explosion hit the Park Kultury station about 45 minutes later. There was no immediate word on casualties there.

The causes of the blasts were not immediately confirmed."
~ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_516581.html
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #58 of 2691
Clearly the terrorists would stop if Russia, England and others just removed all their bases in those countries and went home.

Here's something a little interesting that sort of demonstrates the law of unintended consequences....Berkeley to charge for recycling.

Quote:
With less trash going into the garbage can, people are shifting to smaller can sizes. That is putting less money in city coffers - even after a 20 percent garbage rate increase last year. But the recycling and composting services once billed as free continue to grow...........

.............The decrease in garbage isn't just about recycling and composting. It's also tied to the economy. As consumption goes down, so does the amount of packaging and nonrecyclable waste that goes into garbage cans.

Etherington said it actually costs the city more to pick up and process recycling than garbage - $53 a ton versus $45. In the past, recycling mostly paid for itself through the resale process. But that's no longer the case.

Commodity rates for many recycled goods have plummeted. Paper went from being worth $187 a ton in July 2008 to $46 a ton in January 2009 and $116 a ton in December 2009, according to city staff. Aluminum went from $1,908 a ton to $679 to $1,200 in those same periods.

Some residents say scavengers, who raid curbside blue bins for the most valuable recyclables, are the reason recycling is less profitable.

Now just to make you aware, this sort of thing happens OFTEN in California. We have some of the most stringent laws out there with regard to recycling, waste management and also conserving energy. My problem isn't with those laws per se. The problem is the law of unintended consequences which is well known by many of us at the beginning and is just dismissed as bad intentions. Noting something like that when people consume less and produce less trash, the amount of revenue will go down but the government will still want the same amount of cash is dismissed as just lunacy. Many such plans are pitched as money savers and we are told that we will basically end up with a better result for the same cost or, basically a freebie, the same result with much lower cost due to some secondary benefit being mandated.

The reality though is that this isn't so. When people stop smoking, the government has to find another source of revenue. When they drive less or switch to more fuel efficient cars, suddenly we don't have enough gas tax money. In Berkeley, where people have clearly done very well with managing waste, costs are going up, not down. All the secondary markets that were supposed to provide the freebies have of course collapsed due to everyone piling into them. This article doesn't address it but I would bet if an accurate study were done it was a government subsidy that propped up the price in the first place.

Does that mean I'm opposed to recycling or composting or similar such measures? No, not at all and we absolutely recycle at my house and the chickens are part of our composting process. However on the flip side, don't act like a condescending idiot when people declare that this will cost more down the road and that there are no freebies in the world.

We can't all be in this together and then have something change and not have it affect us all. This is true be it health care, trash, you name it. Often the numbers can be bent in one direction initially but in the end they will revert to the mean. Everything always does.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #59 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Now just to make you aware, this sort of thing happens OFTEN in California. We have some of the most stringent laws out there with regard to recycling, waste management and also conserving energy. My problem isn't with those laws per se. The problem is the law of unintended consequences which is well known by many of us at the beginning and is just dismissed as bad intentions. Noting something like that when people consume less and produce less trash, the amount of revenue will go down but the government will still want the same amount of cash is dismissed as just lunacy. Many such plans are pitched as money savers and we are told that we will basically end up with a better result for the same cost or, basically a freebie, the same result with much lower cost due to some secondary benefit being mandated.

The reality though is that this isn't so. When people stop smoking, the government has to find another source of revenue. When they drive less or switch to more fuel efficient cars, suddenly we don't have enough gas tax money. In Berkeley, where people have clearly done very well with managing waste, costs are going up, not down. All the secondary markets that were supposed to provide the freebies have of course collapsed due to everyone piling into them. This article doesn't address it but I would bet if an accurate study were done it was a government subsidy that propped up the price in the first place.

I think this is a result of those who favor so much government action (as opposed to voluntary private actions) don't really understand how markets and prices work. They don't get supply and demand curves. They don't understand the basic mechanics that are vital to understanding how the world operates. They have good intentions and think that is sufficient.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Does that mean I'm opposed to recycling or composting or similar such measures? No, not at all and we absolutely recycle at my house and the chickens are part of our composting process. However on the flip side, don't act like a condescending idiot when people declare that this will cost more down the road and that there are no freebies in the world.

But wouldn't that take the fun out of being a liberal, big-government, nanny-state statist?


Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

We can't all be in this together and then have something change and not have it affect us all. This is true be it health care, trash, you name it. Often the numbers can be bent in one direction initially but in the end they will revert to the mean. Everything always does.

More succinctly: Reality always wins and legislation and good intentions cannot change that.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #60 of 2691
In other news, Ricky Martin admits that the sky is blue.
post #61 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In other news, Ricky Martin admits that the sky is blue.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #62 of 2691
Ap.com

Some nice miscellaneous news this morning. The unemployment rate didn't go up! 160k jobs added with 25% of them being temporary census jobs.

Still at this stage, I think we will all take what we can get in terms of good news.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #63 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Ap.com

Some nice miscellaneous news this morning. The unemployment rate didn't go up! 160k jobs added with 25% of them being temporary census jobs.

Still at this stage, I think we will all take what we can get in terms of good news.

In addition to that, apparently in one of the recently signed bills, there was a change made to the way unemployment is calculated which was expected to show a more favorable unemployment number. I cannot find the link about this at the moment. I saw it in passing in the last week or two. It was stuffed into either the latest jobs bill or even the health care bill.

As I recall Clinton did something similar at one point. I know they're always tweaking formulas and such to make them more "accurate," but it brings into question the timing and the motive and whether it is really more accurate or simply more politically helpful.

We'll see. I'm still not confident we won't have a double-dip here.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #64 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

In addition to that, apparently in one of the recently signed bills, there was a change made to the way unemployment is calculated which was expected to show a more favorable unemployment number. I cannot find the link about this at the moment. I saw it in passing in the last week or two. It was stuffed into either the latest jobs bill or even the health care bill.

As I recall Clinton did something similar at one point. I know they're always tweaking formulas and such to make them more "accurate," but it brings into question the timing and the motive and whether it is really more accurate or simply more politically helpful.

We'll see. I'm still not confident we won't have a double-dip here.

Agreed that there is deep concern about a double-dip. The unemployed in this instance are mostly remaining unemployed and that is where the big fight is going to be because the industries many of them have worked in won't see a large need for them any time soon, aren't prone to large productivity gains and lastly there is just a very large education issue at play here.

By this I'm mostly referring to construction. We've overbuilt, won't need as many workers to build, most are tired of the fact that even after all these years there isn't a way to automate or wring any productivity gains out of the field and lastly, most of the folks in this field are of low education and don't care to change fields or learn much to enhance the productivity within the field. As is par for the course (see autoworkers) the answers from Democrats appear to be unionizing to institutionalize the low education/productivity requirements along with bouts of unemployment benefits that never run out.

A couple new points to add today. One is cute, fun and light because it is President Obama discussing March Madness while playing some horse. As much as we all complain about our presidents being those we want to have a beer with, it is good politics and also good fun. Even if I disagree with President Obama I'd love to discuss that disagreement with on the White House basketball court while shooting the ball and the breeze.

Second bit of interesting info is the NY Times compensation chart for executives.
It is very nice because it goes into much more than just salary which a lot of folks get hung up on. It shows bonuses, stocks, options, etc. It's a nice way for folks playing amateur economist to get some quick info and improve understanding.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #65 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Agreed that there is deep concern about a double-dip. The unemployed in this instance are mostly remaining unemployed and that is where the big fight is going to be because the industries many of them have worked in won't see a large need for them any time soon, aren't prone to large productivity gains and lastly there is just a very large education issue at play here.

By this I'm mostly referring to construction. We've overbuilt, won't need as many workers to build, most are tired of the fact that even after all these years there isn't a way to automate or wring any productivity gains out of the field and lastly, most of the folks in this field are of low education and don't care to change fields or learn much to enhance the productivity within the field. As is par for the course (see autoworkers) the answers from Democrats appear to be unionizing to institutionalize the low education/productivity requirements along with bouts of unemployment benefits that never run out.

A couple new points to add today. One is cute, fun and light because it is President Obama discussing March Madness while playing some horse. As much as we all complain about our presidents being those we want to have a beer with, it is good politics and also good fun. Even if I disagree with President Obama I'd love to discuss that disagreement with on the White House basketball court while shooting the ball and the breeze.

Second bit of interesting info is the NY Times compensation chart for executives.
It is very nice because it goes into much more than just salary which a lot of folks get hung up on. It shows bonuses, stocks, options, etc. It's a nice way for folks playing amateur economist to get some quick info and improve understanding.

Quote:
Agreed that there is deep concern about a double-dip. The unemployed in this instance are mostly remaining unemployed and that is where the big fight is going to be because the industries many of them have worked in won't see a large need for them any time soon, aren't prone to large productivity gains and lastly there is just a very large education issue at play here.

And it would be ok if this didn't happen right? Even if it meant that Obama has been successful in getting things to start turning around? Even if it meant that the Republicans probably would be picking up lots of seats this fall?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #66 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And it would be ok if this didn't happen right? Even if it meant that Obama has been successful in getting things to start turning around? Even if it meant that the Republicans probably would be picking up lots of seats this fall?

You'll have to clarify your question and re-frame it into something other than an attempt to troll for intentions to justify accusations.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #67 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You'll have to clarify your question and re-frame it into something other than an attempt to troll for intentions to justify accusations.

I don't have to do anything concerning this. You had your chance and I asked several times and in different ways. You refused.

Also I guess I'm not really on ignore anymore. However I think you may have broke your old record of time spent ignoring.

All I'm doing is holding you accountable for your statements or lack thereof.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #68 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I don't have to do anything concerning this. You had your chance and I asked several times and in different ways. You refused.

Also I guess I'm not really on ignore anymore. However I think you may have broke your old record of time spent ignoring.

You are right that I refused to answer several fragmentary phrases with question marks attempting to pose as one loaded question.

Happy Easter. You can go back on ignore now.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #69 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

You are right that I refused to answer several fragmentary phrases with question marks attempting to pose as one loaded question.

Happy Easter. You can go back on ignore now.

In case you're mistaking this for MJ's question I'm talking about the hypothetical one I posed to you some weeks back that you also wouldn't answer. It points to the same thing. When pinned down about your position on things you just don't answer because you know it would reveal something about your attitude.

No you flatly refused to answer a straightforward question because it would A : Show you were nonpartisan or B : it would show you would rather have any other outcome for us and the economy than positive if it meant a gain for Obama. Sad really.

Quote:
You can go back on ignore now

For all that it means.......
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #70 of 2691

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #71 of 2691
Thread Starter 
Obama's tax cuts are indeed huge. Check your State here- http://www.ctj.org/obamastaxcuts.php
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #72 of 2691
I wonder how many of our liberal friends will slam President Obama for offering up tax cuts in the midst of two wars and a recession? We were told such things were not responsible under Bush. Likewise the largest share of those receiving the tax cut is shown to be among those earning $132k. We were told such things were giving tax cuts mostly to the rich and thus was immoral.

Obviously the tune has changed now though.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #73 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I wonder how many of our liberal friends will slam President Obama for offering up tax cuts in the midst of two wars and a recession? We were told such things were not responsible under Bush. Likewise the largest share of those receiving the tax cut is shown to be among those earning $132k. We were told such things were giving tax cuts mostly to the rich and thus was immoral.

Obviously the tune has changed now though.

If someone were to do what the economy needs in the long run ( and that is to pay for things ) you'd be slamming Obama for raising taxes. PPD.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #74 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I wonder how many of our liberal friends will slam President Obama for offering up tax cuts in the midst of two wars and a recession? We were told such things were not responsible under Bush. Likewise the largest share of those receiving the tax cut is shown to be among those earning $132k. We were told such things were giving tax cuts mostly to the rich and thus was immoral.

Obviously the tune has changed now though.

Yes, it's amazing how things change isn't it?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #75 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Yes, it's amazing how things change isn't it?

Yes. Isn't it?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #76 of 2691
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman [QUOTE

I wonder how many of our liberal friends will slam President Obama for offering up tax cuts in the midst of two wars and a recession?

Obama didn't start the wars and he's ending one which gives him some wiggle room.
Quote:
We were told such things were not responsible under Bush.

They weren't. These tax cuts are part of the stimulus package, that only last for two years, mostly to help create jobs. The top 5% will end up paying more in taxes after this expires. Bush wanted to make his tax cuts permanent making it much harder to pay down our debt.
Quote:
Likewise the largest share of those receiving the tax cut is shown to be among those earning $132k. We were told such things were giving tax cuts mostly to the rich and thus was immoral.

Bush's tax cuts gave about $123,000 to those earning over a $1,000,000 a year. The top 1% of income earners got 24% of the tax cut. Obama only gives, in Maryland, 31% of those in the top 1% (those earning $1,377,140 on average) a tax cut and they only get $1,368 on average (1.2% of the total tax cut). Those earning less got much bigger tax cuts. $5,816 (19.1%) for the next 4% and $3,299 (41%) for the next 15%. Even the next 20% got almost as much at $1,045 (16.5%).
~ http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1811 (scroll down to figure 2 and see how wrong Bush's projections on job growth were!)

Quote:
Obviously the tune has changed now though.

Tell that to The Tea Party!
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #77 of 2691
[QUOTE=Hands Sandon;1612985][QUOTE=trumptman Obama didn't start the wars and he's ending one which gives him some wiggle room. [/QUOTE]

Don't think he'll be ending any wars.

He might pull some troops out but that's because he'll be needing them for the war he actually starts.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #78 of 2691
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=segovius;1613074]
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


Don't think he'll be ending any wars.

He might pull some troops out but that's because he'll be needing them for the war he actually starts.

He's certainly doing nearly as good a job as Bush at spending billions on them, that's for sure. Both Iraq and Afghanistan are both big unknowns. Obama says he will have all the troops out of Iraq durin 2011 and he'll start bringing down troop numbers in Afghanistan in 2011. However Iraq could easily get worse and a major civil war could insue. That would put an end to Obama's plans there, even if he seems to be on track at the moment. Afghanistan is far from over and making predictions about drawing down troops seems, to me at least, overly optimistic.

However there's been a serious economic crisis and whilst tax cuts make it harder to pay down the debt, they do produce some economic growth, hence more jobs. In the short term therefore I think he's doing the right thing and if he's right on Iraq, which hopefully he is, the war spending should significantly come down during 2012.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #79 of 2691
A freaking amazing graphic...

post #80 of 2691
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

A freaking amazing graphic...


Yeah, we're stuck!!! All airports closed! Is kind of cool...

Live Text Coverage

NASA image:

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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