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Publishers criticize Apple's anti-Flash stance

post #1 of 158
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Members of the media have expressed disagreement with Apple co-founder Steve Jobs' position that ditching Adobe Flash is a "trivial" move for publishers.

Contacts from a variety of media outlets, ranging from newspapers to advertisers to large mainstream media outlets spoke with Valleywag to talk about the difficulties they face in potentially abandoning Flash. The publication referred to comments from Jobs as "anti-Flash propaganda."

The reactions came in response to comments alleged to have been made by Jobs in a meeting with editors of The Wall Street Journal in February. In that meeting, Jobs allegedly said that Flash was a "CPU hog" that was "full of security holes," and called it "old technology." He also said that for the newspaper to abandon Flash entirely would be a "trivial" move.

Kevin Elevin, a Flash developer with a large social networking site, reportedly said that ditching Flash would result in the loss of capabilities not available through HTML5 and Javascript. In addition, he said the development time on projects would increase.

An anonymous online producer with a mid-sized U.S. newspaper said a transition from Flash would be difficult for a publication of that size with limited resources.

"Using Flash for interactive graphics is irreplaceable," the producer "Not just slideshows, but special section graphics and interactive presentations can be embedded on story pages quickly and easily. Oh, sure, just use Javascript: well guess what, we don't have a bunch of code junkies in our newsroom. We do have some great designers who've picked up Flash and enough Actionscript to be very effective."

Another anonymous freelance interactive designer agreed with Jobs that Flash can be unstable and switching could be easy, but added that the switch is not as simple as the Apple co-founder suggested. The designer said developers have become accustomed to the ease of use and integration with Flash, which allows them to be more artistic and less technical.

"Where is my HTML5 development tool?" the designer reportedly said. "Perhaps he needs to try some Flash development first-hand to see what the big deal is."

While some developers are upset about Apple's refusal to allow Flash on the iPhone OS that runs on the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad, others have seen the massive install base of Apple users as a reason to embrace alternatives. Virgin America ditched Flash when building its Web site to cater to iPhone users who want to check in for flights on their phone.

This week it was discovered that network TV station CBS is testing HTML5 for an iPad-compatible version of its Web site prior to the device's April 3 launch. In addition, In February, it was rumored that Hulu, an online streaming video destination for multiple networks, plans to make its videos available without Flash for the iPad platform as a subscription only service.

Flash has been the subject of increased scrutiny ever since Apple announced its iPad in late January. Following the unveiling, Jobs reportedly disparaged Flash at an internal Apple employee meeting, reportedly calling the company "lazy" and stating that "the world is moving to HTML5."

For more on Apple and Flash, and why the Web format will likely never be available on the iPhone OS, read AppleInsider's three-part Flash Wars series.
post #2 of 158
Steve has a point re: Flash on the Mac.

Whenever I go to a website and it seems to stall and I get a beachball, it's because of Flash. Adobe has never addressed the issue on the Mac and SJ got fed up. I don't blame him.
post #3 of 158
Flash? iPad?

Uh-oh.

Might as well stop reading right now. This thread is guaranteed to head downhill in no time. The troglodytes will be out in force......
post #4 of 158
Brace yourselves for another long series (9 pages?) of Flash wars.
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #5 of 158
They're just jealous because in reality they're all talentless hacks.

What they want to do according to this article CAN be done in HTML5 and Javascript.

They've also become lazy relying on nasty graphical tools to do things quick and easily instead of properly.

Graphical editors have their uses but code allows more control. HTML and Javascript also allows for more code reuse than Flash seems to allow so I tend to agree that it would be trivial to ditch Flash in favour of something that doesn't kill your system playing an ad.

Considering ActionScript is based on ECMA Script which is the underlying structure for Javascript it shouldn't take a real developer long to move over at all.

I guess the people in this article haven't seen what Protocol and JQuery can do, neither have they seen what Sproutcore or Cappuccino can do either.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Apple releases the next version of iWeb with HTML5 instead of XHTML like it currently does.
post #6 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Flash? iPad?

Uh-oh.

Might as well stop reading right now. This thread is guaranteed to head downhill in no time. The troglodytes will be out in force......

Trolls have started to roll
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #7 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

It not because of FLASH, it's because of OSX.
FLASH runs just fine on any low-end PC even Netbooks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

And who said those Apple execs weren't smart to sell stock NOW?
Seriously, it behooves Steve Jobs and Apple to stop the BS and embrace Flash now.

Adobe confessed that Flash has been not properly developed for OSX (documented fact in earlier article) and their need to do more work and you come with above comments. As I said you love to hear your own voice.
post #8 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

It not because of FLASH, it's because of OSX.
FLASH runs just fine on any low-end PC even Netbooks.

It's because Flash Player on Mac O S X sucks and also Flash Player on any Windows 64 bit doesn't work at all because there isn't one. At least Mac OS X can play 32 bit apps on it's OS as opposed to having to have specific versions for 32 bit and 64 bit.
post #9 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Brace yourselves for another long series (9 pages?) of Flash wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Trolls have started to roll

You need to leave this discussion thread, if you calling anantksundaram a troll, now I know you just want to start crap!
post #10 of 158
Stop feeding the troll people. If he doesn't want to agree with what came directly from Adobe, he'll never make worthwhile points.

What I get from this article is that media outlets just want a HTML5 development tool that will make designing the same functionality just as easy. Apple should have made one of those freely available when they first started this offensive against Adobe. Media outlets don't want to get rid of their flash devs or want to retrain them. Which falls in line with them never wanting to get with the times. All the more reason they're doomed if keep doing things the same way.
post #11 of 158
Funny thing is, even Adobe in promoting their latest CS package uses Javascript instead of Flash.

http://cs5launch.adobe.com/

Telling?
post #12 of 158
If Adobe is as lazy as Steve says. If Flash is a data hog as Apple says. If Flash hasn't been updated for Mac as some posters have said resulting in endless beach balls on the Mac while the improved Flash for PC works great, even on Netbooks... Then maybe it is time Apple created its own "version" to satisfy all those squeaky wheel iPad wannabe content providers and Apple can call this new 'flash'-like software... drumroll please:

'Gone in a Flash!'

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Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

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post #13 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

It not because of FLASH, it's because of OSX.
FLASH runs just fine on any low-end PC even Netbooks.

You're seriously out of your depth.
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #14 of 158
What about the argument that even if Flash were allowed on the iPad (and iPhone / iPod touch), that it might in many cases offer a "not what the designer intended" experience since there are no mouse-overs to trigger actions like there are with a typical computer and mouse cursor?
post #15 of 158
It's always been difficult to push people forward into new areas when they've entrenched themselves in one specific technology with no clear path to move away from. This usually only happens with proprietary tech. For some odd reason it's a lot easier to replace open/standards based tech.
Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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Disclaimer: The things I say are merely my own personal opinion and may or may not be based on facts. At certain points in any discussion, sarcasm may ensue.
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post #16 of 158
I'm having a hard time squaring the story with the headline.

"Publishers", which suggests the top brass at big online media outlets, turns immediately, in the first sentence of the story, into the completely meaningless "members of the media" which within a few words is further downgraded to "contacts from various media outlets" which finally proves to be (at least as far as the AI story would have it) a Flash developer, an anonymous online producer and an anonymous designer.

OK, and now I've looked at the linked story and that really is pretty much it, save for one named ad agency guy. If that's "push back" from "publishers", it seems pretty low key.

Maybe a better headline would be "Valleywag manages to find a few critics of Apple's Flash stance."

Oh yeah, but that wouldn't be sufficiently click whore-ish.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #17 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Another anonymous freelance interactive designer agreed with Jobs that Flash can be unstable and switching could be easy, but added that the switch is not as simple as the Apple co-founder suggested. The designer said developers have become accustomed to the ease of use and integration with Flash, which allows them to be more artistic and less technical.

"Where is my HTML5 development tool?" the designer reportedly said.

Get to it Apple (or Adobe, or ANYBODY). Roll out the HTML 5 development tool. Roll out a purpose built tool for creating interactive video / slideshow ads or content. This niche is waiting for takers. (My bet is it wont be long before such a tool will appear)
post #18 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

You need to leave this discussion thread, if you calling anantksundaram a troll, now I know you just want to start crap!

I think he was actually agreeing with me! (Or so I'd like to naively believe).
post #19 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalG View Post

Stop feeding the troll people. If he doesn't want to agree with what came directly from Adobe, he'll never make worthwhile points.

What I get from this article is that media outlets just want a HTML5 development tool that will make designing the same functionality just as easy. Apple should have made one of those freely available when they first started this offensive against Adobe. Media outlets don't want to get rid of their flash devs or want to retrain them. Which falls in line with them never wanting to get with the times. All the more reason they're doomed if keep doing things the same way.

I agree 100%. If Apple or even Adobe want to sell some software that lets you do the same thing a with a different type of file export, then more power to them. Obviously there's an impasse here, someone write a solution and make some cash.
post #20 of 158
Wow, 22 comments and not one from the "kill flash" bloke?
post #21 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

You need to leave this discussion thread, if you calling anantksundaram a troll, now I know you just want to start crap!

You should know me better than that. I have no problem with anantksundaram, I respect the person too much, and If I offended anantksundaram, my most sincere apologies. But if you look below anantksundaram's posting two consecutive postings of one known troll--on my ignore list.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #22 of 158
What?

Yet publishers are getting behind the iPad and some very big names are transitioning to HTML5.

for whoever is complaining, their loss. This is 2010, and if your web/ebook/app content doesn't play well with Apple products, you're doing it wrong.

The music industry had similar concerns and complaints. Eventually they saw the light. Same thing will happen here.
post #23 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I'm having a hard time squaring the story with the headline.

"Publishers", which suggests the top brass at big online media outlets, turns immediately, in the first sentence of the story, into the completely meaningless "members of the media" which within a few words is further downgraded to "contacts from various media outlets" which finally proves to be (at least as far as the AI story would have it) a Flash developer, an anonymous online producer and an anonymous designer.

OK, and now I've looked at the linked story and that really is pretty much it, save for one named ad agency guy. If that's "push back" from "publishers", it seems pretty low key.

Maybe a better headline would be "Valleywag manages to find a few critics of Apple's Flash stance."

Oh yeah, but that wouldn't be sufficiently click whore-ish.

Yeah, some astute observations there. I thought the sourcing was a bit thin too.....
post #24 of 158
Quote:
"Using Flash for interactive graphics is irreplaceable," the producer "Not just slideshows, but special section graphics and interactive presentations can be embedded on story pages quickly and easily. Oh, sure, just use Javascript: well guess what, we don't have a bunch of code junkies in our newsroom. We do have some great designers who've picked up Flash and enough Actionscript to be very effective."

Another anonymous freelance interactive designer agreed with Jobs that Flash can be unstable and switching could be easy, but added that the switch is not as simple as the Apple co-founder suggested. The designer said developers have become accustomed to the ease of use and integration with Flash, which allows them to be more artistic and less technical.

"Where is my HTML5 development tool?" the designer reportedly said. "Perhaps he needs to try some Flash development first-hand to see what the big deal is."

Ditto those comments!
I don't even know what HTML5 looks like code wise yet and I don't have any dev tools yet to help with animation and interactivity... Are there any or do you have to hand code everything?

Where's Apple's Dreamweaver and Flash App alternatives.

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post #25 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

You obviously can't disprove my comment- so you typically just dismiss it.

When a major Flash bug that causes Flash on OS X to crash is reported and doesn't get fixed in a public release for 14 months it speaks volumes. Flash on Mac is a resource hog. Not to mention Flash "doesn't" run "just fine" on netbooks. They become hot and the fans go crazy. And battery life is dramatically decreased. In this day and age little animated web games shouldn't make your computer seem like it wants to catch fire. You're comments assume none of use Windows machines to test your bullshit claims.

As I said recently, Flash served it's purpose and was good for what we needed it for. But a time will come when Flash is replaced by other web technologies, like HTML5. Apple made a choice not to include Flash, which is buggy and slow even on more higher end Macs. I'm glad too, cause these upcoming technologies will be far more "efficient". Disagree or not but Apple have changed the game. By websites not using Flash and switching to new open technologies they aren't getting in bed with Apple, they are getting out of bed with Adobe and leaving their house.

Don't buy an iPad, and quit moaning moaner.
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Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #26 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I think he was actually agreeing with me! (Or so I'd like to naively believe).

10000% AGREED, referring to the two consecutive post below yours.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #27 of 158
The comments from these publishers and designers really sound like: SJ might change his mind based on arguments (no matter if good or bad)... IMHO we will see an iPad with a floppy drive before we see one with Flash support. No Flash is a great feature to have, now somebody figure out how to write an ad blocker for the iPad.
post #28 of 158
.

Once upon a time in the Kingdom all King's Men, The Bean Counters, and Newspapers used Roman Numerals.

It was the way it had always been done, and according to the King's YesMen - it was also quick and easy.

Then one day, from the East, came a "New System" called the Hindu-Arabic Base 10.

It caused Great Confusion in the Kingdom and took 100's of years to sort out which "System" was truly the "best" and which would be the "Standard" in the Kingdom.

.

Now, let's jump forward about 1,000 years to Today.

And talk about DOS/Windows/UNIX/OSX/Flash/etc etc.

Starting to see how we can learn from History ?

Let'$ make $ure whatever "$tandard" we choo$e is becau$e it'$ truly the "be$t" and not ju$t the more "popular" at thi$ moment.


.

BC
post #29 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

The comments from these publishers and designers really sound like: SJ might change his mind based on arguments (no matter if good or bad)... IMHO we will see an iPad with a floppy drive before we see one with Flash support. No Flash is a great feature to have, now somebody figure out how to write an ad blocker for the iPad.

Dont start with the ad blocker crap. Pay for what you use! If you don't want to pay, don't visit the site. You're already filtering all Flash, so you can't use that as an excuse.
post #30 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

On your ignore list, yet you know their every move? Now that's rich.

Because others keep quoting them. Like I'm doing now.
post #31 of 158
I agree with Steve that Flash is a joke.

There is currently a program called Live 3D CX by a company called Strata that totally runs on Java and allows for Flash-like capabilities without a plugin. It mainly deals in three dimensions, but it still allows for interactive content on web pages.

I would strongly suggest using this, and it costs the same amount of money as Flash. Go to www.strata.com for more details.
post #32 of 158
A huge chunk of the internet is built on Flash. It is a feature in some circumstances. It is a shame to see Apple taking yet another feature out because of its refusal to upgrade OS X underpinnings especially when even underpowered windows machines can run flash perfectly.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #33 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

Dont start with the ad blocker crap. Pay for what you use! If you don't want to pay, don't visit the site. You're already filtering all Flash, so you can't use that as an excuse.

I do pay for what I use, if there is an option. I am not willing to be disturbed by moving, sounding, and whatever they will do next, advertising. I pay for ad-free TV channels, I buy movies and TV shows on iTunes for the very same reason.
post #34 of 158
I bet they'll still end up putting their content on the device though.
post #35 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

And what exactly does that confession imply? They're obviously not sweating to the oldies trying to get it "properly developed " for Macs when it works just fine on 90% of the world's computers. What is their incentive? Has Apple offered to pay them to fix it? It benefits Apple more than Adobe to fix it. Apple should put up the chump change now with their money bags or stop whining.

Apple should fix a software, which their do not own, Hmmm I see brains of Britain is here again!

Why did Adobe confess their sins and say they will fix it. You not making any sense and the article about their confessions was posted on AI. please explain that article to me.
post #36 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeetime View Post

What about the argument that even if Flash were allowed on the iPad (and iPhone / iPod touch), that it might in many cases offer a "not what the designer intended" experience since there are no mouse-overs to trigger actions like there are with a typical computer and mouse cursor?

There are no controls yet, though with other touch screen devices coming out, it's inevitable (very likely?) it will have some type of mouseless controls added to future versions.
post #37 of 158
The truth is that if Apple opens the door to Flash on the iPhone, it would undermine the iPhone SDK itself. It is Apple right to defend their turf.

In the long run, Apple and users are better served with HTML5 instead of Flash. Developers much prefer an open standard like HTML 5 than a proprietary one (Flash).
One would argue that Apple's SDK is a closed platform but who cares, it's their phone.

If publishers are not happy and don't want to write Apps for the iPhone because of this reason then they are doing themselves a disservice. The average customer does not care about Flash vs HTML. They just want content. Publishers should simply not have web designers write Apps instead of developers !
post #38 of 158
I'm the biggest Apple fan boy, but I think SB is making a huge mistake here..... I think it's an issue that really divides people... give me a ClickToFlash type tool and let ME decide what content I can access....The problem (as the article states) is the divide between devs and designers.... Designers know Photoshop, illustrator, Flash, etc... There needs to be some kind of authoring environment for HTML5... I know Wookie Boy will disagree and have links to tutorials.... But until the majority of existing Flash content is replaced with HTML5 content, users will be unhappy with this. Until the iPad can offer a better experience, I'm sticking with my 3GS and my laptop.
post #39 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by TECHSTUD View Post

It not because of FLASH, it's because of OSX.
FLASH runs just fine on any low-end PC even Netbooks.

You need to do you research much more. Flash's failures have nothing to do with OSX and Flash for that matter even bogs down crappy low market pc's too.
post #40 of 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Brace yourselves for another long series (9 pages?) of Flash wars.

Isn't that spelled FLash Whores?

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"...The calm is on the water and part of us would linger by the shore, For ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."
- Michael Lille -
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