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New Office 11 for Mac sports dense ribbons of buttons - Page 2

post #41 of 117
We're so lucky to have Mocrosoft making great Mac software for us.
post #42 of 117
I don't see why they chose to split functionality between the toolbar and the ribbon. They used the toolbar before and they want to move to the ribbon now. They somehow don't want to leave the toolbar behind so they split the workload between them. Though if I had the option to put font options on the toolbar then the ribbon would go unused, kind of like the "elements gallery" now.

I also wonder, do they still have the palette like they did in office 2008? I see that icon that was the popup icon for the palette back in '08 but I'm wondering whether you just press it to expand and minimize the ribbon. If they have the palette it's good when it comes to choice.

Edit: And what's with the "nicknames" for microsoft. Last thing I want to see is someone calling macs "mac$" or seeing "@pple" or whatever. Kind of silly if you ask me.
post #43 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It seems clear to me that the author's used the phrase 'Windows Vista-era "Ribbon"' instead of just using a more general term to refer to the ribbon as to specifically prevent confusion

The author used that exact phrase. That was what I remember to. It was too prevent confusion.
post #44 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Will take the iWork look over Office any day. Attractive, clean, simple, obvious.

Most importantly, clean -- not a freakin' jumble of everything-but-the-kitchen-sink-oh-wait-a-minute-we'll-break-it-up-into-hundreds-of-pieces-and-toss-'em-all-in.

And yes, the floppy-disk icon -- out of time, and out of place. Paging Mr. Peabody and the WABAC Machine: you're needed in the Office Group at Microsoft!!!

Speaking of the Office Group, I just loved this comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Microsoft has not delivered a tablet version of Office, reportedly because of political and management issues flaring between the Office group and engineers working on Tablet PC.

Is anybody here surprised -- anybody? I'll call Ripley's first thing in the morning to share the news...
post #45 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How about a link from the company that actually made the Windows Ribbon Framework.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...91(VS.85).aspx Look at that, tou even got lucky because Microsoft even stats everything I previous stated all in one page as this is general knowledge for those that have a working knowledge of Windows.

I think you are a bit off target, Sol.

Similar in functionality and appearance to the Microsoft Office 2007 Fluent user interface, the Ribbon framework is composed of a ribbon command bar that exposes...


This implies that Ribbon Framework is created after the fashion of Office 2007 Ribbons, not the other way around; since Vista SP2 is minimum requirement, Ribbon Framework is way younger than Office 2007. Additionally, it is only similar in functionality and appearance... which does not mean it is the same thing, but same GUI philosophy.

Basically, they borrowed idea from Office 2007 and implemented it into Ribbon Framework - not the other way around. But same thing? I don't think so...
post #46 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

I think you are a bit off target, Sol.

Similar in functionality and appearance to the Microsoft Office 2007 Fluent user interface, the Ribbon framework is composed of a ribbon command bar that exposes...


This implies that Ribbon Framework is created after the fashion of Office 2007 Ribbons, not the other way around; since Vista SP2 is minimum requirement, Ribbon Framework is way younger than Office 2007. Additionally, it is only similar in functionality and appearance... which does not mean it is the same thing, but same GUI philosophy.

Basically, they borrowed idea from Office 2007 and implemented it into Ribbon Framework - not the other way around. But same thing? I don't think so...

That is exactly what I stated. Of course the took the idea for Windows Ribbon Framework from the Fluent UI Ribbon as it predates it. The author very clearly (or so I thought) uses the Vista-era Ribbon phrase, which refers to the Windows Ribbon Framework which only came about in Vista SP2, not Fluent's Ribbon feature. Angus was stating that nothing of the sort existed and I clearly (or so I thought) pointed out that Windows Ribbon Framework is Vista SP2 and later, and colloquially referred to as Vista Ribbon specially so it's not confused with Fluent.
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post #47 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And there we have the trolls typical flipfloping on the debate when he actually realizes he's backed himself into yet another corner. Sad.

Let's go back to te beginning. You angrily exclaimed that the author's clear use of the phrase "Vista Ribbon" which has been pointed out refers to the Windows Ribbons Framework found in Vista SP2.

But now you claiming that I stated "Windows Office 2007 [requires] Vista to have the ribbon interface". What Mickey Mouse world do you live in that you think that makes sense?

Technically, I'd say article is not correct for calling Office Ribbons Vista Ribbons, as Office ribbons are pre-dating Windows Ribbons Framework (a.k.a Vista Ribbon). It makes more sense the other way around, calling Windows Ribbons Framework Office Ribbons, though considering requirements, it is obvious look and feel are comparable, but execution is completely different.

Does this make any sense?
post #48 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


Will take the iWork look over Office any day. Attractive, clean, simple, obvious.

You don't even have to say - we all know you'd rather take Mac equivalent of Notepad than MS Word
post #49 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Technically, I'd say article is not correct for calling Office Ribbons Vista Ribbons, as Office ribbons are pre-dating Windows Ribbons Framework (a.k.a Vista Ribbon). It makes more sense the other way around, calling Windows Ribbons Framework Office Ribbons, though considering requirements, it is obvious look and feel are comparable, but execution is completely different.

Does this make any sense?

It makes sense the way the author wrote it, the way MS explains it which is the way I know it and what I stated.
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post #50 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post



Will take the iWork look over Office any day. Attractive, clean, simple, obvious.

I'm going to have to disagree here. Too many common tasks are buried in iWork. My one gripe with Office for Mac is that it was too different from the Windows version. I especially hate the function bar for Excel being docked at the top...and it also defaults to not show it at all. I think this new design is a step in the RIGHT direction.

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post #51 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneaburns View Post

I'm going to have to disagree here. Too many common tasks are buried in iWork. My one gripe with Office for Mac is that it was too different from the Windows version. I especially hate the function bar for Excel being docked at the top...and it also defaults to not show it at all. I think this new design is a step in the RIGHT direction.

What common tasks?
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post #52 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As usual you fail on every level, even attacking the author for your ignorance.

MS Office 2007 offered the Fluent user interface. This is similar in both appearance and functionality to the Windows Ribbon Framework, often referred to as Vista Ribbon because the minimum requirements were Windows Vista SP2.

You shouldn't call people ignorant when you're the one who's ignorant.

The Ribbon Bar is not referred to as a Vista Bar by Windows users. The author should be cut some slack since this is not a Microsoft fan site, but it is what it is. Don't act like a troll.
post #53 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saldog View Post

You shouldn't call people ignorant when you're the one who's ignorant.

The Ribbon Bar is not referred to as a Vista Bar by Windows users. The author should be cut some slack since this is not a Microsoft fan site, but it is what it is. Don't act like a troll.

And which troll created this new alias? iGenius? Angus Young?

This is simple, simple stuff. The Fluent UI came BEFORE Vista so it can't be the Vista-era Ribbon mentioned in the article. Since the author specific referred to the Vista-era Ribbon it CANNOT be the the Ribbon in Fluent UI, which predates Vista. By process of elimination it has to be Windows Ribbon Framework, again ad nauseum, requires Vista SP2. How many links to MS sites do you need before you understand evolution of technology.
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post #54 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Will take the iWork look over Office any day. Attractive, clean, simple, obvious.

Absolutely. I keep a copy of Office 2004 around ONLY for emergencies. BTW: RTF files are MUCH more cross-platform compatible than ANY MS document format.

But, you forgot the Inspector window, which is where most of the iWork stuff can be found and happens!
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post #55 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneaburns View Post

I'm going to have to disagree here. Too many common tasks are buried in iWork.

Look in the Inspector window. Although it IS rather complex, but once you figure it out, no problems. I'll take it over any hideous ribbon or zillion and one menus and sub-menus.
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post #56 of 117
The hell are people quibbling over Windows versions of Office?

Who cares?
And CERTAINLY why on earth would ANYONE on a Macintosh forum give a flying fuck?
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post #57 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And which troll created this new alias? iGenius? Angus Young?

This is simple, simple stuff. The Fluent UI came BEFORE Vista so it can't be the Vista-era Ribbon mentioned in the article. Since the author specific referred to the Vista-era Ribbon it CANNOT be the the Ribbon in Fluent UI, which predates Vista. By process of elimination it has to be Windows Ribbon Framework, again ad nauseum, requires Vista SP2. How many links to MS sites do you need before you understand evolution of technology.

I don't need to look at Microsoft's web site. Just the 20 machines at my work running XP and Office 2007, all with Ribbon Bars. Troll.

Not an alias. Not a MS fan boy. Love Macs but have to use Windows at work. Hard core Windows user for about 20 years. I have iWork at home. Nowhere near as powerful as Office. Office for Mac should work just like Office Windows to deal with the simple fact that we have to switch back and forth regularly. MS finally understands this and is making Office 2011 more like 2007.
post #58 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

And which troll created this new alias? iGenius? Angus Young?

This is simple, simple stuff. The Fluent UI came BEFORE Vista so it can't be the Vista-era Ribbon mentioned in the article. Since the author specific referred to the Vista-era Ribbon it CANNOT be the the Ribbon in Fluent UI, which predates Vista. By process of elimination it has to be Windows Ribbon Framework, again ad nauseum, requires Vista SP2. How many links to MS sites do you need before you understand evolution of technology.

OK so you're trying to tell us the author is referring to a DIFFERENT Ribbon Bar than the one in Office 2007? So, he is referring to a Vista-era Ribbon, which is much newer and special than the one in Office 2007? What product does THAT Ribbon Bar appear in? WordPad? Paint?

You made a few comments and called someone else ignorant, thinking you're smart because you went to MS' web site. Do you even have access to a Windows PC? Have you ever even seen Office 2007, let alone use it for getting anything done? Best Buy doesn't count.

iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office. Hey, I think MS blows too so I'm no fan boy, but Office is still king of the office. Once MS makes the Mac version run Visual Freaking Basic once again and have a similar look and feel to the Windows version, they will truly have something. I say that still being a fan of Apple's UI rules.

By the way, there are so many more features and capabilities in Office than in iWork that MS needed to do something about how far deep these features lie within the UI. I hated the Ribbon Bar at first but I'm getting used to it. If 2011 has VBA, I'm in. Otherwise, I'm sticking with 2004.

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post #59 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saldog View Post

I don't need to look at Microsoft's web site. Just the 20 machines at my work running XP and Office 2007, all with Ribbon Bars. Troll.

Not an alias. Not a MS fan boy. Love Macs but have to use Windows at work. Hard core Windows user for about 20 years. I have iWork at home. Nowhere near as powerful as Office. Office for Mac should work just like Office Windows to deal with the simple fact that we have to switch back and forth regularly. MS finally understands this and is making Office 2011 more like 2007.

Solipsism would get further if he left out the insults, but he is not trying to say that Office 2007 does not have the ribbon in Windows XP. He is simply trying to explain that there are two implementations of the ribbon interface at Microsoft, the Fluent UI and the Windows Ribbon Framework. The Fluent UI for Office was created first and is only used in Office. Based off of that the Windows group created the Windows Ribbon Framework to use in other Windows applications and for use by other developers. The two implementations are different though similar and the reason there are two different implementations of the ribbon likely has to do with internal politics within Microsoft.

Solipsism's original post was in response to AngusYoung's statement that the author, in referring to the ribbon in Office for Mac as the Vista Ribbon, was showing his ignorance on the subject. Solipsism tried to point out that the author of the article was probably referring to the Windows Ribbon Framework when he stated that it was a Vista Ribbon, as the framework was added in Vista SP2. Perhaps the author felt that the look of the ribbon more closely resembles the ribbon that is part of the framework built for Vista than the Office ribbon and was not actually ignorant of the ribbons origins. This is obviously what Solipsism was trying to point out but AngusYoung took the statements and provided references to mean that Solipsism was trying to argue that the ribbon in Office 2007 was only available in Vista SP2 and later which was not the case.

From that point neither of them really seemed to understand what the other was saying and things got ugly. Solipsism even accused AngusYoung of changing his argument part way through, which he did not. AngusYoung simply failed to properly understand what Solipsism was trying to say and Solipsism failed to recognize how AngusYoung was interpreting his statements and explain the misunderstanding. If they had taken the time to better understand what the other was saying they would have realized that they were both right about certain things and weren't really arguing the same point of contention.

Solipsism is correct in saying that the Windows Ribbon Framework was created as part of Windows Vista SP2 and later. Solipsism could be correct in saying that this is what the author was referring to when he compared the Office for Mac ribbon to the Vista ribbon. AngusYoung was correct in pointing out that Office 2007 was the first program to have the ribbon interface and that the ribbon in Office is available on Windows XP. On these two points Solipsism is in agreement. So, there would seem to be nothing more to argue about. The case is closed.
post #60 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleet View Post

Solipsism would get further if he left out the insults, but he is not trying to say that Office 2007 does not have the ribbon in Windows XP. He is simply trying to explain that there are two implementations of the ribbon interface at Microsoft, the Fluent UI and the Windows Ribbon Framework. The Fluent UI for Office was created first and is only used in Office. Based off of that the Windows group created the Windows Ribbon Framework to use in other Windows applications and for use by other developers. The two implementations are different though similar and the reason there are two different implementations of the ribbon likely has to do with internal politics within Microsoft.

Solipsism's original post was in response to AngusYoung's statement that the author, in referring to the ribbon in Office for Mac as the Vista Ribbon, was showing his ignorance on the subject. Solipsism tried to point out that the author of the article was probably referring to the Windows Ribbon Framework when he stated that it was a Vista Ribbon, as the framework was added in Vista SP2. Perhaps the author felt that the look of the ribbon more closely resembles the ribbon that is part of the framework built for Vista than the Office ribbon and was not actually ignorant of the ribbons origins. This is obviously what Solipsism was trying to point out but AngusYoung took the statements and provided references to mean that Solipsism was trying to argue that the ribbon in Office 2007 was only available in Vista SP2 and later which was not the case.

From that point neither of them really seemed to understand what the other was saying and things got ugly. Solipsism even accused AngusYoung of changing his argument part way through, which he did not. AngusYoung simply failed to properly understand what Solipsism was trying to say and Solipsism failed to recognize how AngusYoung was interpreting his statements and explain the misunderstanding. If they had taken the time to better understand what the other was saying they would have realized that they were both right about certain things and weren't really arguing the same point of contention.

Solipsism is correct in saying that the Windows Ribbon Framework was created as part of Windows Vista SP2 and later. Solipsism could be correct in saying that this is what the author was referring to when he compared the Office for Mac ribbon to the Vista ribbon. AngusYoung was correct in pointing out that Office 2007 was the first program to have the ribbon interface and that the ribbon in Office is available on Windows XP. On these two points Solipsism is in agreement. So, there would seem to be nothing more to argue about. The case is closed.

Thanks fleet. Clears things up. Nicely done.
post #61 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saldog View Post

Thanks fleet. Clears things up. Nicely done.

Thanks, glad to be of service.
post #62 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris View Post

BTW: RTF files are MUCH more cross-platform compatible than ANY MS document format.

Sorry to break this to you, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format

(It was also the preferred formatted-text standard for the NeXT computers.)
post #63 of 117
Outlook for Mac! Sweet. Outlook Express was my favourite OS 9 email client. I know they are not the same program, but it is enough to make me download the demo (whenever that is).

I only hope it is easy to use for a home user with Internet email, and not only designed for Office/Corporate LAN use.
post #64 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roos24 View Post

Unfortunately, since almost all my customers use MS-Word for their documents, it is almost a necessity to have MS-Word for the Mac. Pages just isn't fully compatible.

Ribbon/Shmibbon. Office has always sucked. If Apple would just let me save to .doc by default instead of having to export and end up with multiple copies of docs to manage manually, I'd be done with Word and the rest. Keynote is a joy to use and does tricks PowerPoint can't handle.

And once you've learned how the inspector and a few other UI conventions work in any program, e.g., Keynote and iWeb, you know a lot about a lot of Apple programs.

Just what the world needed. A great new word processor, presentation and simple spreadsheet that I can't share with 98% of the world without extra (unnecessary to me) steps. Arrrgh!

Or am I missing a simple way to end up with just DOCs and regular Excel spreadsheet formatted docs?

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post #65 of 117
I've been using the Office 2010 Beta on Windows 7, and like the compromise approach to the ribbon whereby it is straightforward to minimise it, retaining screen space, and what looks like the old Office 2003 menus. When clicked on these bring up the relevant ribbon view. Best of both worlds IMO. That said, my biggest gripe about Office 2008 is that I still find it does not always faithfully replicate docs produced using Windows, particularly PowerPoint. And that sucks.
post #66 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

MS Office 2007 offered the Fluent user interface. This is similar in both appearance and functionality to the Windows Ribbon Framework, often referred to as Vista Ribbon because the minimum requirements were Windows Vista SP2.

I don't know what you and the author of the article are smoking, but the Ribbon has NOTHING to do with Vista. MS's own documentation:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/pr...9411033.aspx#2

I use Office 2007 on XP and Vista and the interface is IDENTICAL and not dependent on Vista in any way.
post #67 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How about a link from the company that actually made the Windows Ribbon Framework.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...91(VS.85).aspx

It still has NOTHING to do with the Ribbon in Office 2007 so I'm not sure why you are still carrying on about it...
post #68 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

the author's clear use of the phrase "Vista Ribbon" which has been pointed out refers to the Windows Ribbons Framework found in Vista SP2.

Really? That's funny because this appeared as the opening line when I read the story:

Quote:
Screenshots of Microsoft's 2011 version of its productivity suite for Mac have appeared, highlighting a more serious user interface appearance and the Vista Ribbon.

Which is the author mixing the Vista Ribbon with the Office 2007 ribbon - which is quite wrong. The two aren't related at all. Especially since the Vista Ribbon is a windows only framework.

It'd be like expecting core animation on Windows because iTunes used core animation like effects.
post #69 of 117
Oh jeez. All this arguing about the Ribbon has got to stop. Solipsism was/is right and fleet has posted an excellent summary post.

Of course, if you want to discuss the differences between the "Fluent" Ribbon and the "Vista" Ribbon, go ahead. But stop trying to prove Solipsism wrong when he is clearly correct and you don't understand what he is saying.
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post #70 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleet View Post

Solipsism would get further if he left out the insults, but he is not trying to say that Office 2007 does not have the ribbon in Windows XP. He is simply trying to explain that there are two implementations of the ribbon interface at Microsoft, the Fluent UI and the Windows Ribbon Framework.

Which is TOTALLY irrelevant for a story about Microsoft Office - esp. the mac version.

The AI author had NO BUSINESS even bringing up "Vista Ribbon" as it added absolutely nothing to the story, and instead caused a huge firestorm of confusion. That should be the first hint the article is POORLY WORDED and in desperate need of editing and clarification, because I think in the authors mind the two are indeed intertwined - which they aren't in the least.

The original story needs to be simplified and clarified. It's a poorly worded hack as it stands, with blatant and misleading information in the first sentence.
post #71 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Of course, if you want to discuss the differences between the "Fluent" Ribbon and the "Vista" Ribbon, go ahead. But stop trying to prove Solipsism wrong when he is clearly correct and you don't understand what he is saying.

Actually, your right. The problem isn't Solipsism per se - the original article is confusing and should be clarified. There was no reason to even mention the phrase "vista ribbon" - it adds nothing to the story except for unnecessary confusion.
post #72 of 117
To clear some things from the article up:

The Ribbon was not introduced with Vista but with Office 2007 for PC. The Ribbon UI is officially called Fluent-UI which is more than just the tabbed bar at the top but a lot of other UI changes.

The Ribbon is now the new standard GUI for Windows apps. MS has introduced it to some Windows 7 apps and will deliver it with the new version of the Windows Live Essentials apps (think of iPhoto and Mail).

The main difference between the Ribbon UI in Office 2011 for Mac is that the Ribbon is just one of 3 GUI metaphors used in one suite! There is the menu bar, the new Ribbon and even the old floating format palettes.

The Fluent-UI (terrible name!) on Windows on the other hand is JUST the Ribbon. There are no more menus! No more floating windows! And you even can collapse the Ribbon, haven't seen this on the new Mac version yet.

I was very skeptical about the Ribbon introduced 3 years ago. But after using it I really have to say that it is the best GUI to date for complex apps. But it is not right for every kind of software. I'm again very skeptical if it is good to give the Windows Live Photo Gallery (it's like iPhoto on the PC) this UI.
post #73 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

I wonder what's supposed to happen when I click the floppy disk icon?

Does the program generate a little whirring/clicking noise, just for nostalgia's sake?

(C'mon, MacBU, it's Two Thousand And Ten already!)

You really have no idea what an icon is. Haven't you seen the "phone" icon on the iPhone? Or the "iPod" icon on the iPad? They are all legacy shapes because people know what these old shapes mean. That is the idea behind icons. Scissors are another example of that for the "cut" command.
post #74 of 117
Who really is interested in why and how the Ribbon was born may want to watch this entertaining presentation:

http://videos.visitmix.com/MIX08/UX09

It may change some opinions about IF it was a good idea.
post #75 of 117
Pointless, so I erased it
post #76 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by godrifle View Post

Microsoft's graphic designers are third-rate. What is up with those nasty icons?

I guess I'm one of the few Mac users here that actually likes this new design. But I guess that's in part to the fact that I've always thought that was the one product Microsoft was good at and that's it's Office suite. I can't wait for this to be released.
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post #77 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Outlook for Mac! Sweet. Outlook Express was my favourite OS 9 email client. I know they are not the same program, but it is enough to make me download the demo (whenever that is).

I only hope it is easy to use for a home user with Internet email, and not only designed for Office/Corporate LAN use.

As long as it is better than the outlook I have on my work pc. Jeeaz, it takes a minute or so to search emails. Mac mail is instantaneous. The calender is also lame...
post #78 of 117
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post #79 of 117
The only question I have about the next version of office is whether the mac version will support the same equation editing as the Windows version. The fact that you can't even SEE the Word 2007 equations in Word 2008 is a real problem for me when I take documents home from work. I try to encourage people to use MathType instead of the Word 2007 equations, but our IT dept is threatening to not pay for MathType anymore.

I've asked this in many different places, but nobody seems to know.
post #80 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiAdiMundo View Post

You really have no idea what an icon is. Haven't you seen the "phone" icon on the iPhone? Or the "iPod" icon on the iPad? They are all legacy shapes because people know what these old shapes mean. That is the idea behind icons. Scissors are another example of that for the "cut" command.

I know full well what an icon is, thank you. The problem with using a 3-1/2" floppy disk as an icon is it was a mediocre and relatively short-lived technology (approximately 20 years) versus a phone or scissors, which are still in use (as is the iPod Classic, although I don't think that's a great example either.) Symbolically, it represents a look backwards from a company whose greatest success and failings are predicated on looking backwards.
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