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New Office 11 for Mac sports dense ribbons of buttons - Page 3

post #81 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Actually, your right. The problem isn't Solipsism per se - the original article is confusing and should be clarified. There was no reason to even mention the phrase "vista ribbon" - it adds nothing to the story except for unnecessary confusion.

I agree that he author could have clarified the evolution of the Ribbon from Fluent to the Framework to make his usage more clear but that I is only in retrospect, as I thought the inclusion of Vista and Vista-era made it clear.

If Angus hadn't started the comment with his typical odious comment I would have let it go, then it just became fun to strangle him with his Ribbon (I'm not tell you which one).

PS: Thanks Mr. H, I didn't think it was a tough timeline to follow or that the thread would get out of hand. The lesson here is don't reply to trolls.
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post #82 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

I know full well what an icon is, thank you. The problem with using a 3-1/2" floppy disk as an icon is it was a mediocre and relatively short-lived technology (approximately 20 years) versus a phone or scissors, which are still in use (as is the iPod Classic, although I don't think that's a great example either.) Symbolically, it represents a look backwards from a company whose greatest success and failings are predicated on looking backwards.

TiAdiMundo makes a good case there. Even YouTube has an old wood-framed CRT TV as the icon. But I'm inclined to agree with you as I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button. How many kids today have used a floppy disc? I'm sure all have used a pair of scissors.

Any ideas for a better choice?
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post #83 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

TiAdiMundo makes a good case there. Even YouTube has an old wood-framed CRT TV as the icon. But I'm inclined to agree with you as I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button. How many kids today have used a floppy disc? I'm sure all have used a pair of scissors.

Any ideas for a better choice?

Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?
post #84 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?

I can't find any Apple apps that have a Save button.

It is a better system to just autosave documents immediately. I use Stickies because of that (and they sync with MobileMe)
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post #85 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saldog View Post

iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office.

Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
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post #86 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button...

Any ideas for a better choice?

Unfortunately, this doesn't lend itself to making a good icon, but it emphasizes the importance of 'saving' your work:

http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypic...y-computer.jpg
post #87 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?

According to the Office UI team, "Save" was the second most used command in Word 2003 behind "Paste". So it would be wrong not to have a Save button even if the app does have auto-save.

It's not that Microsoft introduced old-styled icons. They are everywhere and for a reason. Just think of the "Mail" app icon on the Mac, "Folder" icons on every system or traffic signs around the world.

Who has a better idea for "Save" that's not confusing with a "download" button?
post #88 of 117
[QUOTE=Saldog;1600339]

iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office. Hey, I think MS blows too so I'm no fan boy, but Office is still king of the office. Once MS makes the Mac version run Visual Freaking Basic once again and have a similar look and feel to the Windows version, they will truly have something. I say that still being a fan of Apple's UI rules.

By the way, there are so many more features and capabilities in Office than in iWork that MS needed to do something about how far deep these features lie within the UI. I hated the Ribbon Bar at first but I'm getting used to it. If 2011 has VBA, I'm in. Otherwise, I'm sticking with 2004.

Saldog

Hi, Saldog: Yes, VBA is back in Office for Mac 2011... this was announced a while back by the MacBU. I'd agree the Windows Office Ribbon (also now used on several other programs) takes some getting used to, but does indeed allow a user to find and make use of features that they would otherwise probably not experience. With more power and functionality comes a level of complexity - however good the UI design. I remember using MacPaint way back.. took only 10 min. to learn... but then again it didn't do much!

PS. The general level of comment on these forums is seriously sad, wish people would stick to facts not schoolboy name calling.. used a Mac for years, but this level of so called debate just looks foolish and makes us all look like idiots with little to do but throw insults at each other.
post #89 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsftMacMan View Post

PS. The general level of comment on these forums is seriously sad, wish people would stick to facts not schoolboy name calling.. used a Mac for years, but this level of so called debate just looks foolish and makes us all look like idiots with little to do but throw insults at each other.

Don't give up! We're not all bad. Why not stick around and raise the tone?
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post #90 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.

As an example, Excel has a very deep toolset that Numbers does not approach .. one day it may, but it will also have then to deal with adding a whole new range of commands and menu's (and developing it's menu/icon/toolbar interface to handle it.

Pivot Tables a great example of a tool (one of many) that Office has long had, that is lacking in iWork.

If you want to view and review tables of data (sales report, league scores, you name it) then a Pivot table is a fantastic way to do so.. allowing you to re view the data in a myriad of ways quickly and without effecting the source data.

MacMan
post #91 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Don't give up! We're not all bad. Why not stick around and raise the tone?

Thanks... will give it a go - try and ignore flame war merchants and focus on sharing information and insights! The the majority of Mac Users are great.. knowledgeable, enthusiastic about the platform and happy to share their views and experiences in a positive way.

As someone who's used (and at times even worked for) both Apple and Microsoft from the very 1st days (Apple II / PC with DOS) through to today (Snow L / Win 7), I always try use both - stay current with what they can (and can't) do and see and explain from my personal viewpoint the benefits or drawbacks in both platforms ... we're all entitled to our opinions... glad most sane people realise that they don't need to insult everyone else just because theirs differs!
post #92 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. … . For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.

Here's some, regarding Word vs. Pages

Setting up heading numbering in Pages is a nightmare. In Word, all my headings are left-aligned, have no dot after the final number (e.g. "1.1 Heading Level 2" as opposed to "1.1. Heading Level 2") and have a defined style that should follow. Try to achieve the same in Pages (hint: you can't). And to top it off, when you get the closest to that you can in Pages, when you create a table of contents, it won't include the heading numbers so you have to fiddle around with the style settings for the table of contents (every time the TOC is updated, of course).

Pages doesn't include an equations editor.

Given the issues with styles in Pages (nowhere near as powerful as in Word), I've never bothered to use Pages for more than five minutes, so you'll have to forgive me that those are the only examples I can give.

The thing is, no-one should expect Pages to be an equivalent to Word. iWork is an entry-level productivity suite, like Microsoft Works. Office is the Daddy.
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post #93 of 117
Update: just found out Pages doesn't even have cross-referencing! So, if you insert a picture and give it a caption that is auto-numbered (e.g. "figure 1"), you can't then cross-reference that caption in the text; you just have to manually write e.g. "figure 1 shows that...". However, that means if you now insert a new figure earlier in the document, such that "figure 1" becomes "figure 2", you have to go and find all the references to "figure 1" in the text and change them to "figure 2". Oh dear.
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post #94 of 117
Another one: in Word, you can set the position of floating objects (i.e., ones that aren't inline with the text) relative to the page (e.g. left for horizontal position and middle for vertical position). In Pages, you can only set the position by x and y co-ordinate of the top-left corner of the object (quick, get your calculator out and figure out where the top-left corner of the object you're positioning should be if you want said object left-middle on the page!)

P.S. Can you tell I'm playing with the free Pages trial?
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post #95 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.

Not magical or mystical. Powerful. Ubiquity is definitely no virtue. Aren't we all using Windows? By "we" I mean those of us working for Fortune 500 companies and the companies that serve them.

To be more specific, I'm mainly talking about Excel, which you can say what you will about MS, but they got that one right. Might be the best productivity app of all time. Windows version is much better than Mac I'm sorry to say.

Keynote rocks. Pages is pretty good but it needs to work better with .doc. Numbers is a nice tool but just a toy compared to Excel. The things you can do with Access are great too. I wish there was a nice equivalent.

Sorry for being vague but you need to experience the product in a work setting to see for yourself.
post #96 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsftMacMan

As an example, Excel has a very deep toolset that Numbers does not approach .. one day it may, but it will also have then to deal with adding a whole new range of commands and menu's (and developing it's menu/icon/toolbar interface to handle it.

Pivot Tables a great example of a tool (one of many) that Office has long had, that is lacking in iWork.

If you want to view and review tables of data (sales report, league scores, you name it) then a Pivot table is a fantastic way to do so.. allowing you to re view the data in a myriad of ways quickly and without effecting the source data.

MacMan

Numbers is obviously the weakest link in iWork, since it is also the newest addition. However when a lack of features in Numbers is being argued, it always seems to come down to Pivot Tables. That is still just one feature. Numbers has some really nice table and chart building features that Excel probably does not approach. Does that count as a point against Excel? Apparently not. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of people don't have any use for the "deep toolset" of Excel. What they do need is a toolset of features they can actually use because it is well implemented.

If someone has a need of any given feature which is only in Excel, fine -- use Excel. But to say anything else is inherently feature poor on that account, is not an accurate argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H

Here's some, regarding Word vs. Pages

Setting up heading numbering in Pages is a nightmare. In Word, all my headings are left-aligned, have no dot after the final number (e.g. "1.1 Heading Level 2" as opposed to "1.1. Heading Level 2") and have a defined style that should follow. Try to achieve the same in Pages (hint: you can't). And to top it off, when you get the closest to that you can in Pages, when you create a table of contents, it won't include the heading numbers so you have to fiddle around with the style settings for the table of contents (every time the TOC is updated, of course).

Pages doesn't include an equations editor.

Given the issues with styles in Pages (nowhere near as powerful as in Word), I've never bothered to use Pages for more than five minutes, so you'll have to forgive me that those are the only examples I can give.

The thing is, no-one should expect Pages to be an equivalent to Word. iWork is an entry-level productivity suite, like Microsoft Works. Office is the Daddy.

I have no problems with numbered headings in Pages. Not sure where you're running into one. Since you've never used it for more than five minutes, maybe that's the actual problem. It's not magical, you have to learn how these things are handled in Pages. In fact the way styles are handled in Pages is so much easier in cleaner that you might be overlooking the simplicity.

I find Pages to be far more than an "entry-level" word processor (whatever that slur is supposed to mean). I've been using it for years, since version 1.0, for all of our business word processing. I think it's really good, and I am grateful that Apple didn't try to make it into the Word clone that would have made some people happy.

Equation editing, everybody needs that.
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post #97 of 117
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Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

the entirely new Outlook for Mac (with Exchange support) and separate Address Book, Notes, and Calendar apps.

What are you guys talking about?

Those screenshots clearly show the contacts, notes, and calendars INSIDE Outlook precisely the same way as Outlook for Windows.
post #98 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss

I have no problems with numbered headings in Pages. Not sure where you're running into one.

How about you read what I wrote again? Care to tell me how to achieve what I want? Because when I tried it just now, it appeared to be impossible.
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post #99 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

How about you read what I wrote again? Care to tell me how to achieve what I want? Because when I tried it just now, it appeared to be impossible.

I have read what you wrote. It's not entirely clear to me what you are trying to do which is so impossible, or what happens instead when you try. All I know is I do numbering and it works.

From Pages Help:

Quote:
Formatting Ordered Lists
Ordered lists provide different numbering styles for each indent level in a list, allowing you to create a hierarchy of information. For example:

You can create a list using a numbering sequence as you proceed from the highest level to lower levels: I, A, 1, a), (1), (a), i), (1), and (a).

You can create a legal list style, which appends an additional number or letter at each lower level: 1, 1.1, 1.1.1, and so on.

You can also choose an ordered list style in the Styles drawer. Click the Styles Drawer button in the format bar, and then select the list style. If you don’t see list styles in the Styles drawer, click the List Styles button in the lower-right corner of the drawer to make the styles appear.

I don't use this particular feature myself, but it's certainly there to be used. As far as making a following paragraph to be a set style, this is accomplished in the Inspector, under Text/More.

The Inspector can be kind of fiddly, especially if you're more used to the other way, but it is packed with a lot of features.
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post #100 of 117
[QUOTE=MsftMacMan;1600906]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saldog View Post


iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office.

Can't speak for Pages or Numbers, but Keynote is world-class. I have much more control over very granular selections of elements and actions to die for than I ever had in PowerPoint without having to dig deep into unlikely places, and the interface is pretty damn OK.

Quote:
PS. The general level of comment on these forums is seriously sad, wish people would stick to facts not schoolboy name calling.. used a Mac for years, but this level of so called debate just looks foolish and makes us all look like idiots with little to do but throw insults at each other.

Religious wars are seldom civil, more's the pity in Appleland.

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post #101 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I find Pages to be far more than an "entry-level" word processor (whatever that slur is supposed to mean). I've been using it for years, since version 1.0, for all of our business word processing. I think it's really good, and I am grateful that Apple didn't try to make it into the Word clone that would have made some people happy.

Equation editing, everybody needs that.

If I'd to tell my wife I'm giving her word processor without equations, she'd have nervous breakdown that very moment

But then again, some people will do with WordPad, and some people don't need word processor at all (as long as they have means to type emails).

I am actually surprised Pages have no equations, considering Apple's strong education background. How do Mac using students/teachers/scientists/... create papers with equations..? Surely MS Office for Mac is not the only way..?
post #102 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Another one: in Word, you can set the position of floating objects (i.e., ones that aren't inline with the text) relative to the page (e.g. left for horizontal position and middle for vertical position). In Pages, you can only set the position by x and y co-ordinate of the top-left corner of the object (quick, get your calculator out and figure out where the top-left corner of the object you're positioning should be if you want said object left-middle on the page!)

You may be over-thinking this one: unless inline, objects stay where you put them, and line up nicely with smart alignment guides at centre and edge of objects (turn them all on in preferences) and alignment guides on the page (show rulers, click and drag to position guides, and show layout to see the page margin) so there is no real need to enter or think about co-ordinates. Compared to Word, etc, I find placing, aligning and resizing images quicker and easier.

Lists work for me too, but can't help you with the period after the last number, or with cross-refs or multiple ToCs either.
post #103 of 117
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post #104 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsftMacMan View Post

Can't speak for Pages or Numbers, but Keynote is world-class. I have much more control over very granular selections of elements and actions to die for than I ever had in PowerPoint without having to dig deep into unlikely places, and the interface is pretty damn OK.

I agree, Keynote is quite slick and lacks very little. I wish iWork had "smart connectors" like the shapes in Office though. You can actually do Visio-style flow charts in Office apps. There's also an Org Chart app in Office that makes those a snap too. I am constantly using it. iWork shapes are very cool and the alignment guides are great, but dragging around the shapes of a flow chart loses connections, requiring lots of re-tweaking. Maybe iWork 2010 will bring some more cool features.

When I get my iPad, I plan to use it for meetings in our main conference room. I will see how it is with using Keynote to put up my Powerpoint presentations over the VGA cable. I can't wait to pretend I'm John Madden and draw on the screen/slides also. I think iWork will be the real killer app for the iPad, allowing us to actually get some work done.
post #105 of 117
For flowcharts etc, there's OmniGraffle ... coming to iPad too. With iWork and Omni apps, iPad could be very useful.
post #106 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I have read what you wrote. It's not entirely clear to me what you are trying to do which is so impossible, or what happens instead when you try. All I know is I do numbering and it works.

O.K. I didn't say what happens when I try, but I thought it was clear that I want all the headings to be left-aligned (i.e., have no indent) and for there to be no dot after the final number in the heading (i.e. "1.1 Heading Text" as opposed to "1.1. Heading Text").

So, to set up the Heading 1 style, I type "Heading Text" in the document, apply the "Heading 1" style, apply the legal numbering style, change the font and size. Now, open the inspector, go to text->list, choose the numbering style (note there is no style that has no dot after the final number), and then update the Heading 1 style to match what I've just created.

Now, to set up the Heading 2 style, (which I want to look like "1.1 Heading Text", but the closest I can get is "1.1. Heading Text"), I again enter the text "Heading Text" in the document and apply the Heading 2 style and the legal numbering style, change the font and the size. Now, open the inspector, go to text->list, choose the "Tiered Numbers" numbering style and "continue from previous". As it stands, the number will be "2." as opposed to the "1.1." that I want. So, you have to use the right indent arrow to change the indent level. This changes the "2." to "1.1.", but also applies an indent to the text, which I don't want. Having changed the indent level, I can then put the "number indent" and "text indent" (at the bottom of the inspector) back to zero - the number stays "1.1." but the text is now left aligned. Now, update the style to match what I've just created.

So, I've got what I wanted, right? Wrong! Apart from the dot after the number problem, there's the issue that the following paragraph will be indented and one has to manually change the indent level back. The bigger problem is that if I type another heading and apply the "heading 2" style, it is numbered "2.", not "1.2."! I have to go to the list tab of the inspector and manually increase the "number indent" to get it to be "1.2.".
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post #107 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pemulwuy View Post

You may be over-thinking this one: unless inline, objects stay where you put them, and line up nicely with smart alignment guides at centre and edge of objects (turn them all on in preferences) and alignment guides on the page (show rulers, click and drag to position guides, and show layout to see the page margin)

If you want the vertical alignment to be in the middle of the page, that is indeed easy to do with the alignment guides that show up when you do a drag and get near the middle of the page. Horizontal alignment isn't so good though, because it's the centres of the objects that are aligned. (so, you can align the middle of an object with the left-most margin, but who wants that? then half your object will be outside the margins of the page). You could do the horizontal alignment "by eye", but screens have a 100 or so dpi whilst the printed page is 600+ dpi.

Simple alignment in Pages may be quicker than in Word, but that's probably because Word has so many more alignment options that creating a simple user interface for it is a major challenge. Granted, in Word aligning an object can require a lot of clicks, but you can be sure you'll be able to position the object exactly where you want it. I believe that the ribbon interface has simplified this a bit.
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post #108 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

If I'd to tell my wife I'm giving her word processor without equations, she'd have nervous breakdown that very moment

But then again, some people will do with WordPad, and some people don't need word processor at all (as long as they have means to type emails).

I am actually surprised Pages have no equations, considering Apple's strong education background. How do Mac using students/teachers/scientists/... create papers with equations..? Surely MS Office for Mac is not the only way..?

You can get equations into Pages documents, but you have to buy MathType separately. iWork costs $79, MathType costs $97, and the home edition of Office costs $111.92 from Amazon.
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post #109 of 117
Man I wish they'd port Access to Mac. I can't believe it wouldn't pay for itself and even make profit for MS. I'm just stoked we are getting Outlook.
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post #110 of 117
I'm pretty sure the applications "missing" from the Mac version of Office are an attempt to prevent businesses switching from PCs to Macs.
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post #111 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

If I'd to tell my wife I'm giving her word processor without equations, she'd have nervous breakdown that very moment

But then again, some people will do with WordPad, and some people don't need word processor at all (as long as they have means to type emails).

I am actually surprised Pages have no equations, considering Apple's strong education background. How do Mac using students/teachers/scientists/... create papers with equations..? Surely MS Office for Mac is not the only way..?

Any student/teacher/scientist who's serious about math and equations use LaTeX.
post #112 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

Any student/teacher/scientist who's serious about math and equations use LaTeX.

Don't be so sure. I recently finished my Electronic Engineering PhD thesis that contains 133 equations. I used Word and the "lite" version of MathType that comes with it.
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post #113 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Don't be so sure. I recently finished my Electronic Engineering PhD thesis that contains 133 equations. I used Word and the "lite" version of MathType that comes with it.

Maybe you are the exception that proves the rule.
post #114 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I recently finished my Electronic Engineering PhD thesis that contains 133 equations.

Congratulations!
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post #115 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarein View Post

Maybe you are the exception that proves the rule.

No, he is not. Even professional scientific journals that used to require submissions in LaTeX format now willingly accept Word .doc. Of course, they still accept LaTeX, but scientists, mathematicians, and engineers are not required to use it.
post #116 of 117
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Congratulations!

Thank you! Viva to follow
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post #117 of 117
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Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Thank you! Viva to follow

Is your thesis posted on the internet? I'd be interested in reading it.

PS: I'm considering going back to school for another degree later this year, this time in screenwriting or physics (disparate choices). My first two are literature and computer engineering, with an MBA on top of that. I've become pretty lazy since retiring at 30. I thought I would be traveling a lot more but even that became dull. I find that i miss school.
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