When is Apple Insider going to start to put their foot down?

Here is my take:

If someone is violating posting guidelines by directly insulting other posters (i.e. calling them "morons" or "assholes" or whatever), report them and they will be dealt with.

If they are expressing an opinion that you don't agree with, deal with it. If it's getting tiring for you, add that person to your ignore list (click poster's handle->view public profile->user lists (found under user's name)->add to ignore list.

How about a fourth option?

Not now, not today or even this year, but a YouTube-style "vote the comment down to hide" would probably benefit the discussion. +3, -18...etc, etc..

An IP address could be limited to just one vote per post. Any subsequent votes by the same person will simply reset his old input, and cause the server to recalculate the average...

Of course, i could see some of the trolls sitting there and rebooting their DSL modems till they are a blue in the face, just to sign up again and cast another vote. But the system can be made to flag accounts with constantly changing IP addresses

Now, back to work for me

Dan

P.S. And to add to that, users will be able to set their own "ignore" threshold, whether that will be 5 negative points, or 15. A subscription-based, always updated ignore list would be good too. Or, better yet, make trolls' posts visible to registered users, but not to those who are logged out. Reg'd users can always subscribe to trolls list, but trolls themselves will believe their posts are visible, and will only talk among themselves.

P.P.S I hope i have not gone overboard

Moderators know who is posting under other names and have their ways of dealing with those who abuse the system.

Having the option for other names comes in handy, because one builds a profile of themselves as they post, they can use the alternate name to post some juicy information.


I do agree a Slashdot vote up or down comment system would help some, but because of the small and dedicated group here, could wind up be used as a weapon of sorts, especially if one states a unfavorable political position. Or shocking, a bunch of trolls mod down good commentators.


The person who seems to get on everyone elses nerves hasn't gotten to me any, I'm busy searching for relevant and factual information and skip over all the meaningless stuff.

The ignore list works alright, but also ignoring the ignored quotes by others would be a nice addition.

The trolls are driving me to Ars.

They don't put up with that shit there.

Many of the 'good' users in this community don't post anymore. I posted a thread about VmWare and Win 7 and none the older users in the community who are knowledgeable posted a reply.

Its a shame because I've received some invaluable advice here in the past. More than I've been able to return to others.

BacktoMac, I really agree with you on that point.

But, I remember the purge/bust-up that happened sometime in mid to late '05. I used to lurk here on a daily basis but left at that point as the place became somewhat boring. I think a lot of the problems might have roots in what happened then. But it's hard to believe it's really been that long. Time flies...

There was even a "Nazi" troll at that point, but i think he got bored and left. I what i actually wanted to say, was, after that guy stoped posting, I remember seeing a discussion where some members lamented that, and said something along the lines of homegrown trolls were not nearly that interesting. I was stunned, and due to some other circumstances, work being one of them, stopped coming here at all.

I really do miss the old AI... good Outsider discussions, plus Dr Anders' (or who was it?) secret forum (#13)...
The boobies thread there was a real laugh, as some guy got tired of it, and photoshopped one of the nudes to have two sets of breasts plus another set on the knees.

Anyway, i only came here for the community. I don't own a mac, but really enjoy the more educated, eloquent discussions that people here are mostly capable of. That's all



Dan

Each forum has its own flavour, its own character. AI became my Mac forum of choice because it worked well for me. Reasonably intelligent posters including some people with real knowledge who would take the time to post lengthy explanations of technical matters, and generally speaking a lively and civilised discussion board. For a while now one or perhaps a few posters have taken over the board with deliberately disruptive and pointlessly argumentative posts. Quite what motivates this is unclear, other than the obvious conclusion that the behaviour is pathological.

Mr.H: your reply above is complacent, and if it is representative of the management of this site it is disappointing. I've lost count how many I have put on the ignore list in the last few weeks, but people keep falling for it and responding to their provocation. Not only does this clog up the threads and make them disjointed, but the whole tone has become petty and fractious. Therefore the value of this site is diminishing week by week, and the downward effect becoming cumulative.

I'm going to hang on for a bit, partly because I'm loath to let the negative posters win, partly in the hope that the people with the authority do something to remedy the situation. If things don't improve, well there's a whole world wide web out there, there would be no point hanging round a place that had lost its function.

I don't mean to be complacent and I do think it's important not to become overrun by trolls. However, at the same time there are some around here who it seems would not be happy until every single post was ravingly pro-apple and no-one ever said anything negative or disapproving. As a moderator I need to ensure that I'm not banning someone just because they have an opinion at odds with some of the rest of the membership.

I guess the deciding factor should be how articulately the opposing viewpoint is made.

You guys make a list of problematic posters (post it in this thread please, no need to mention iGenius, TEKSTUD, AppleRulez or mrkoolaid) and I will investigate further.

Yep done that.
The problem is that other members quote the people I've banned.
Also ...
When I joined this site. I thought it was about Apple related topics, and generally pro Apple.
While I don't mind thoughtful criticism, what I'm seeing are obvious Apple haters who post messages simply to fan the flames. It's not just about differences of opinion.
Within about two posts of any article with comments the thread becomes a flame war.

Quoted For Truth

Well your wrong, I'm a older user and I responded to your post.

Going by post count is no measure of the age or experience of the poster, even trolls get high post counts.

I'm referring to registered users that have been here longer than a year. Most of these people are real users who are sort of dedicated to this community.

I'm NOT saying that you aren't a real person and I do appreciate your response to my thread. But most of the trolls who have 'poisoned the well', have started here within the last 6 months.

I wrote a longish rebuttal to this kind of moderation a while back to mel.

The fact is these kinds of rules can be gamed to death and make a forum a cesspit anyway. The whole driver for these folks is to frustrate normal people who want to discuss and/or exchange opinions and push them over the edge and get banned. Or simply leave for somewhere else.

Worse, as the number of disruption increases I have less and less of a desire not to call these morons an asshole like they deserve. I couldn't care less about being banned since they prove I can just come back as VINEA. Then when someone finally determines I was too lazy to use a VPN I can come back as ViNeA with some random IP. Or perhaps Aeniv. Or Fred. Or whatever.

The fact that they flaunt their bans so openly makes you guys completely toothless. Worse, some of you support those morons and defend them. When called on that they claim "oh, we're just here to kill spam...we're not real moderators so we don't really represent the forum". Mkay.

And still no list of unruly posters?

You guys haven't done anything about "iGenius, TEKSTUD, AppleRulez or mrkoolaid". Try starting there before we bother helping build some list you're going to dismiss as a non-problem that can easily be solved by using ignore.

Those people need to go. I'm with you and Ireland on this one.

You know, asking when we're going to "put our foot down", i.e. get rid of users you don't like, and then being rude to the only moderator who's shown any sign of even being interested, is unlikely to get you very far.

Shall we try again?

You voted three times. How convenient.

Sorry it came off that way but I don't think anyone here is being rude. Are we being critical? Yes. But frankly you're going to need thicker skin to be a mod if this level of criticism is bothering you.

I offer this suggestions to make AI better. Trolls who 'poison the well' are diminishing the value of this site. I appreciate that being a mod is a thankless job and this problem has really only become an issue here over the last 6 months. But I think its time that you and the other mods had a talk about how to weed out trolls. They are an issue now and they may drive your loyal users to other sites. That's what it's doing to me.

Hey, I'm not sitting here crying or anything; no need for thicker skin. But yes, I feel like those posting in the thread aren't doing themselves any favours when it comes to some of the content of their replies to me.

I stated an opinion near the beginning of the thread but being the open-minded kind of guy I am, I am willing to change my mind following robust, logically sound argument.

Having a full-time job and a four month old daughter I don't have time to follow all the threads around here. If you want help with trolls you're going to need to tell me who you think the trolls are. I provided a list of four because I'm aware that most people around here would consider them trolls. But, are there more, and does everyone agree that they are trolls?

I'd also like to hear opinions on where the line should be drawn. How to define "troll". If someone posts a critical-of-Apple-or-Jobs post which then gets reported as "trolling", what do you expect? That the poster in question is immediately banned forever?

When Teckstud first arrived on AI I personally found him very annoying at times, but certainly not a troll. He just didn't fall over backwards to kiss Apple's feet every time they released a new product. I was unhappy about the fact that he was eventually bullied out of here, but now that he's back I would say that he has got much much worse and I am inclined to ban him.

Making a sarcastic response about the lack of a list 3 hours later (5am to 8am eastern time US? Hell the west coast isn't even up yet) is not an indicator of being serious about helping the situation.<--incorrect my apologies

So, exactly WHAT do you intend to do if such a list if provided?

Obviously they would not have done anything to warrant banning under the current rules (name calling).

Obviously they are less of the problem than those posters ALREADY listed and that have not been dealt with.

So other than provide the opportunity to say "Poster X on the list is not really a troll and therefore this is simply an exercise in muzzling people who you don't like as opposed to a real problem with real assholes" what does such a list do?

You already HAVE a list. Dealing with them is what the main point of this thread is about. Not some fanciful witch hunt for non-fanbois daring to disagree with the all powerful Steve. There is no need for many bannings as the number of assholes is small. A handful. A known handful. There's no real need for a concrete litmus test that specifies allowed vs disallowed behavior to the nth degree.

Ignore works reasonably well for folks you dislike and don't want to read. It doesn't work against folks trying to be disruptive.

Vinea voted multiple times as well. The software used around here is pathetic.

I appreciate that it can be difficult to distinguish trolling from legitimate criticism which should not be discouraged.

My other suggestion to consider would be to have the mods patrol threads more aggressively and keep threads on topic. To many threads devolve into 'OMG it doesn't do flash, it sux' which has gotten waaaay tired and often times has little to do with the original thread. (No I don't have any examples right off the top of my head)

I agree with the general tone here. The problem with "going to other sites" is that it seems they've ALL devolved into the same mess. It's as if there's an invisible army of trolls hell-bent on disrupting (what's left of) the (REAL) Mac "community".

You mention Ars? They USED to be great, but it seems worse there than it's become here. MacRumors has become unreadable, but was never a favorite.

I've been coming here for quite some time and have always appreciated the level of discussion, even the deep techie-level discussion that left my head spinning.

I have a suggestion.
Encourage people to use their real names. (I do.) It's easy to hide behind a handle (or several), spew venom and spread chaos.

I signed up here with my name, because at the time, this was a pretty hard-core Mac techie site and I saw no reason to use the handles I use elsewhere, like on MacDaily-right-wing-News. Also, I'm much less likely to launch in a nasty retort... Jesus F. Christ I WANT to sometimes!

Maybe this is simply the downside of Apple's success. The iPad seems to be making "those people" apoplectic.

It's a multiple choice poll.

Or geez, if you get ignored by more than 50 people you get a ban. Or at least seriously considered for one.

Vinea, you need to rewind and read the thread again. I was the first person to actually name any potentially problematic posters. Like I said, I'm busy and don't follow all the threads, I wanted to know who exactly people were referring to.

And yes, having a list and seeing if everyone agrees that they're trolls would form part of a healthy debate on what constitutes a troll and what action should be taken.

If people think that all they have to do is start a poll and posters they don't like will be banned as a result, they are sorely mistaken. I want to see some proper discussion on this issue before action is taken.

Contention gets moved to the Battlefront. Threads in the Ach stay on topic. Mods are pretty aggressive about enforcing that.

Ars certainly isn't perfect but at least in the Ach you can have reasonably productive discussion. The BF is a waste of time so I generally stay out of there.

The more I think about it I think more aggressive moderation would probably improve the quality of the threads. Maybe we just need more mods (no I'm not trying to get that position for myself).

Unfortunately, that's probably about the only way to seize control back from the trolls.

And the trolls DO take over.

honestly sometimes i go crazy about a topic and rant here about it, but that's "sometimes" I've used appleinsider to learn and stay up to date with apple news and that's how it should be with everybody else in here. there are the elite such as ireland or melgross that I'm always looking to read their posts or responses because you've made your own reputation in here with good and sound reviews, responses or simply by giving your opinion.

ban or warn them? i say neither, just post new rules adapted to this new issue.

p.s. i'm very exited about the iPad.

Agreed, there can be some great threads here. I go off occasionally, too, but I prefer joking to name calling and tossing virtual molotov cocktails.

Just delete obviously incendiary posts. But there IS a fine line.
I hate censorship, but something's got to be done.

(I'd BETTER be against it, my GF works for an anti-censorship organization!)

Normally I express any concerns I have directly to a mod, but since this subject is being discussed publicly... I think it would help tremendously if the mods made more appearances in threads, at least in threads where posts are being reported for rules violations. A little bit of post editing or deletion goes a long way towards getting the message across, especially if the moderator posts the reasons why he's edited or deleted posts. I don't think it's too difficult to spot threads that have devolved into the trading of insults, or posters who's personal mission it is to antagonize other posters until the threads devolve into the trading of insults.

Personally, I have reported any number of pure insult posts -- none of which have ever been deleted or edited. As far as I can tell, none of these posters has ever been sanctioned, either, since they not only are not banned, they keep at it. If the rules are to mean anything at all, then I think this sends entirely the wrong message.

I don't see why enforcement of a ban is at all controversial. These folks aren't random folks we're talking about but people already on permaban for whatever other reason.

Yes, you need to err on the side of caution to insure you aren't banning someone innocent but TEKSTUD as an alias? Please. Why on earth is there any debate on that at all? Ban. Push the button. Done.

Applerulez? Come on. When the MO is the exact same as that of a known iGenius alias identified by IP addr (we really shouldn't have clued that idiot in), created right after that alias was banned it's not hard to determine that this is the same jackass that is already banned and ban them again.

If they get subtle to avoid a ban, who cares? They're a non-problem and it's no fun for them anymore. They're so over the top because nothing gets done and they love to see people get irate.

So at most a warning that they sound too much like some banned jerk and if they don't cut it out quickly that they will be assumed to be an alias and banned.

There are many "mods" posting here all the time. If you don't have the time, then they do and just enforcing previous bans solves 80% of the problem.

No need for philopsophical discussions in what is and isn't trolling. Ultimately it is the decision of the forum owners what is and isn't trolling and what is and isn't appropriate behavior. It's not a democracy, this isn't censorship, this is a medium intended to provide value to the AppleInsider site and encourage page hits and ad revenue as well as promote a healthy AI community.

If someone reports an insult post I will always give the user involved an infraction, and usually edit the post in question as well. Not all insults warrant an instant ban (of any duration), so sometimes you won't be able to tell a user has been sanctioned (are normal users able to see other user's infraction lists on the other's info page?).

Sometimes people (not necessarily you) report posts as insulting and I do not agree. In those cases I take no action and other moderators may or may not take action.

I agree that sometimes a thread can do with a bit of mod intervention and I have on a few occasions done one or more of the following:

• split out off-topic bickering to other threads
• deleted off-topic posts
• told people to stop arguing about something if it's a matter of fact rather than opinion and the facts have been established beyond doubt

Folk need to remember that mods can't read all the threads so threads that have been, or look like they are in the process of being, derailed should be reported as such (with a comment along the lines of - "this thread is being derailed, please split out the off-topic comments", providing a numbered list of the off-topic comments (post numbers are in the top-right of posts))

Well, you make a very good point there.

However, as I said, I remain the only person to have actually named any names as it were and I wanted to know if there were any other individuals people were getting annoyed about.

I've got just a small part to say about censorship. Censorship is wrong if it is done by the government, where the Constitution makes it illegal. However, there is nothing either illegal or particularly untasteful in censoring private blogs, magazines, newspapers, or comments. No privately-held publisher would disagree with the right for them to publish what they wish where they wish. It is _their_ newspaper/blog/magazine/etc. Censoring your own speech, likewise, is just self-control and good taste. While I don't advocate the removal of a forum for the free exchange of ideas and opinions, responses that are not in good taste I believe should be removed. It should be made clear that they were not removed because their opinions were disagreed with--but rather that the delivery of those opinions must be respectful and in good taste. The decision of what is in good taste and what is not should be enacted by the moderators, who should probably initially provide a 1 hour advanced warning before deletion for the first two weeks, and then immediate removal afterwards. They can still comment, just in a respectful tone. This seems to me to be one of the few truly useful ways of dealing with this issue and improving the quality of the general discussion altogether.

OK. Mrkoolaid and TEKSTUD are out of here because they are the same person who has been permanently banned before (techstud).

Not sure about iGenius and AppleRulez as they seem to be unique posters. Are they trolls? Discuss.

I would suggest that the fact that you even think this is a question is part of the problem.